Starcraft II One?: Why is this not a thing?

[Lheticus]

Well, hopefully I'm finding a need and filling it, here. When I downloaded Hearthstone and made a new Battle.net account for it, I discovered that it synched with my copy of Starcraft II that was still installed in the Battle.net interface rather than staying with my old account that I'd lost the login info for. I'm (re?)starting this thread in the hopes I can find some kind of SCII community to play in where people will go easier on me than in a random match until I reach the point where maybe I suck, but not HIDEOUSLY so.

I'm VERY curious as to why there doesn't seem to be an SC II thread on this forum already, though...what's the deal with that?

[Ionbound]

Cool. As a fellow person who sucks horribly, I am in favor of this thread. *cues the stream of Diamonds, Masters, and GMs*

[Winthur]

I'm VERY curious as to why there doesn't seem to be an SC II thread on this forum already, though...what's the deal with that?

Brood War was better. BW threads died when BW died; SC2 became a ded gaem prematurely. HotS fails as an expansion pack, both balance wise and the campaign plays like a single player MOBA. I blame Blizzard's terrible, short-term design decisions.

This (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/461608-starcraft-starcraft-brood-war-co-op-campaign) is my current StarCraft fix. I'm playing with one friend but he's rarely on so I wouldn't mind doing it again, in case any people still wanna play BW.

[Psyren]

I'm waiting until they release the Entire Game Edition. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/stolen-pixels/7357-Stolen-Pixels-181-The-Prognosticationater)

[Ionbound]

Ah, that's right. I forgot BW Elitests are almost as bad as DotA Elitests. Well, time to pack up and go home guys. It turns out we're all playing a crappy RTS that isn't worth getting good at.

[Winthur]

Ah, that's right. I forgot BW Elitests are almost as bad as DotA Elitests. Well, time to pack up and go home guys. It turns out we're all playing a crappy RTS that isn't woth playing.

top kek
i merely expressed my opinion and tried to give some insight into lheticus' question
from what i saw, most of the people who used to play BW, some of them pretty hardcore, are now playing LoL or something else for whatever reason, and some share my opinion
maybe i could have gone "in my opinion, BW was..." but i find that redundant, it should be obvious from the get go
i'm not planning to sit in your thread and lay poops on it
you should lighten up and grow a thicker skin - i noticed you got extremely defensive in the LoL thread because your opinion got contested and counterarguments were solidly backed up too; that's not a healthy way to live at all
why participate in a thread if you don't want to discuss?

anyway, have fun with your game; i wish you to find a decent bunch of fellow players.
i posted link to the SC coop because this is the closest we have to a general starcraft thread and someone might choose to play it with me. i also just happen to have preferred brood war. nothing more, nothing less.
for what it's worth, i still respect day9 and i listen to his live commentary and podcasts just because i like him talking.

[Ionbound]

I'm sorry. I just really can't stand elitism when I'm trying to improve. And LoL and SC2 are games that I want to improve at, and your rather...Rough personality just gets on my nerves.

[Winthur]

I'm sorry. I just really can't stand elitism when I'm trying to improve. And LoL and SC2 are games that I want to improve at, and your rather...Rough personality just gets on my nerves.

i'm not an elitist, my capslock and shift are just broken and i have to copy capital letters from other websites ^^"
the only elitist thing i do is that i only swim free

[Dienekes]

Brood War was better. BW threads died when BW died; SC2 became a ded gaem prematurely. HotS fails as an expansion pack, both balance wise and the campaign plays like a single player MOBA. I blame Blizzard's terrible, short-term design decisions.

This (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/461608-starcraft-starcraft-brood-war-co-op-campaign) is my current StarCraft fix. I'm playing with one friend but he's rarely on so I wouldn't mind doing it again, in case any people still wanna play BW.

May I ask why you think BW was better? As far as I can tell, the units in SC2 are more diverse and open up more potential for meaningful tactical decisions, and more involvement where terrain matters in combat. While there are definitely abilities and units I miss from BW I can't really justify thinking SC2 was anything other than the better made game. It's more a matter of whether it's worth it to relearn old attacks and strategies with this new game when the old one is still there and fun.

Also single player MOBA? I just don't see it. Some of the levels mixed things up in rather intriguing ways that added more variance than BW ever had.

[Lheticus]

*said ominously* I'm starting to get an idea why there wasn't already an SCII thread here...

But anyways, at least we've found each other, firedaemon33--we can improve off each other at least. PM about details to follow. :)

[Winthur]

May I ask why you think BW was better?
i thought it was more engaging, though of course my approach often hinges on kind of archaic limits like 12 units at a time. the game yields itself to a lesser scope because it seems like there's less bases needed and i don't ever feel like mineral spots are constantly taken over and contested. the new playstyles for races are distinctly different. none of the three races play like they did (terrans no longer feel like glass cannon specialists that rely on careful positioning, now they're BW protoss; zerg lost a lot of their feel as well, particularly with how their macro worked [i don't like the inject larvae system at all); the protoss are no longer timing attack maestros, they're now much more positioning reliant). the core design of each game somehow works out in that with bw patches were only needed every few months and aside from a few things they mostly kept things balanced but it seems like with every new sc2 patch the game is shifted towards one or other race.


As far as I can tell, the units in SC2 are more diverse and open up more potential for meaningful tactical decisions, and more involvement where terrain matters in combat
yhhhhhhmmmmmm, i'd argue with that because a lot of the cool stuff that was really engaging in BW was cut. lurkers and dark swarm, shuttle+reaver micro, m&m or vulture micro are some of the classic things i remember. i'd totally prefer the reaver to the colossus and the lurker to the baneling. tanks feel so much worse than in bw, and they're one of the best bw units by far; so much so that marines reigned supreme for a long, long time, and they're pretty boring a-move units when you strip down bw's complex micro and remove infantry counters.

i also feel like that with inject larvae, protoss warp-ins and terrans having a worker that harvests at more efficiency while not taking up supply, all these things yield themselves more towards all-in play, and that is not that fun to watch imho, let alone play.

i like certain things that sc2 does though, for instance the creep spread mechanic and some terran macro mechanics. i'm also not saying there aren't certain things that were in bw that kinda sucked, for instance zvz, which i liked to play and watch because it was quite... neurotic, but ultimately, i have to admit that as players got better, the matchup became extremely streamlined; it's always just lings into mutas, never any late game. tvt is another matchup i really enjoyed watching even though someone once compared it to "chess with pieces that randomly explode in your hands". pvp was literally a game of massing dragoons and reaver micro; it seems like most people just don't like mirrors in bw.




Also single player MOBA? I just don't see it. Some of the levels mixed things up in rather intriguing ways that added more variance than BW ever had.
i didn't like how on brutal i could just beat missions with only kerrigan after a while. and some missions were specifically geared towards just walking around with superpowerful kerrigan and fighting bosses. maybe less like moba and more like diablo 3. i just liked WoL's campaign better.

also, honestly i just don't like the things like "pay for the game three times to stay relevant", the whole bn 2.0 system initially was a step backwards because there was no place to socialize like in good old brood war pol-1, and blizzard also seems to have successfully killed custom mapping. nobody ever plays custom maps in sc2, and when they do, it's all the same game modes. for how simple bw editor is, i've never seen anything as cool as run zergling run, helm's deep or diablo 2 in sc2. it feels like wasted potential. it's like blizzard assumed their only audience is people who want to play competitively but largely missed the big picture of people who got hooked because of custom maps and freeform playing. i think that's the main reason korea no longer follows starcraft as much.

also sc1 storyline was solid. bw a bit less so, but still engaging. the storylines with all the backstabbing and politics supported the whole space western setting. sc2's storyline is awful, but of course that isn't relevant to sc2's status as a competitive rts. in general i believe that blizzard's writing has taken a pretty large decline since around the time of wc3.

i'm kind of sad though that game developers seem to think that blizzard has a monopoly on rtses and instead of making cool new strategy games everyone wants their slice of the moba pie. i'd really like to play wc4, dawn of war 3 (more like 1 than 2), and a new supreme commander. or a proper command 'n' conquer game, but that's obviously not going anywhere for Extremely Agitating reasons.

that said, objectively speaking, sc2 is a pretty good game. i've even had fun with it. just not enough to invest as much time in it as i did in bw. the main problem is that it feels like a love letter to bw that doesn't seem to understand a lot of the things that made bw so great.

so yeah play sc2 all you want, have my blessing. complete with a smile to make me less intimidating:
:biggrin:

[Zevox]

I'm VERY curious as to why there doesn't seem to be an SC II thread on this forum already, though...what's the deal with that?
There was one, for a very long time. It was on its ninth iteration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318364-Starcraft-2-Day-9-has-the-HotS-for-Kerrigan), in fact. But it seems that for whatever reason use of it just stopped back in March of this year.

[Lheticus]

There was one, for a very long time. It was on its ninth iteration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318364-Starcraft-2-Day-9-has-the-HotS-for-Kerrigan), in fact. But it seems that for whatever reason use of it just stopped back in March of this year.

Curious...well, if this one iterates, I'll skip to 10 then. :)

[Happy Gravity]

Ah, Starcraft...

I was Diamond in Wings of Liberty. Then I stopped playing (computer switches, other stuff to do, blah blah) and got bad. And behind on the meta, by at least one expansion and probably a bunch of balance patches.

Primary race: Zerg. Secondary when I feel like turning off my brain or cannon rushing my friends: Protoss.

I would be interested in playing again in a non-ladder setting. Name is "Erebus". (code 862)

[The Glyphstone]

There was one, for a very long time. It was on its ninth iteration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318364-Starcraft-2-Day-9-has-the-HotS-for-Kerrigan), in fact. But it seems that for whatever reason use of it just stopped back in March of this year.

I think we just ran out of stuff to talk about, what with a total death of LotV news. Chat about minor balance tweaks in patch notes only go so far.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think we just ran out of stuff to talk about, what with a total death of LotV news. Chat about minor balance tweaks in patch notes only go so far.

Not to mention that between Team Liquid's site and Day9, there's already places to go when you just want to learn stuff.

And I hate when people say SC2 is dead. Yeah, a major e-sport that got more viewers in the LoneStar Clash than the LoL LoneStar Clash is dead! Great conclusion!

[Lheticus]

Not to mention that between Team Liquid's site and Day9, there's already places to go when you just want to learn stuff.

And I hate when people say SC2 is dead. Yeah, a major e-sport that got more viewers in the LoneStar Clash than the LoL LoneStar Clash is dead! Great conclusion!

1,000 YES points to you, sir. I don't "just want to learn stuff" though--if I can, I'd like to learn by DOING in a better controlled environment than random matches.

[Artanis]

*said ominously* I'm starting to get an idea why there wasn't already an SCII thread here...
There actually was a SC2 thread, which was even up to iteration 9 ("Day9 Has The HotS for Kerrigan"). However, the combination of between-WCS-seasons doldrums and other games getting hot discussion-wise made it get slower and slower until it finally stopped altogether and fell away :smallfrown:


Edit: So...many...Toshes...:smallredface:

[Legoshrimp]

I think the main reason the thread died was no one was playing sc2. I could be interested in playing again though. Maybe we can get a group going again.

[Happy Gravity]

Did we not have a list of people + character codes or whatever in the original threads?

[Legoshrimp]

Did we not have a list of people + character codes or whatever in the original threads?

Yeah there was.
Here is the first post from that thread.

StarCraft 2 is a real time strategy game by Blizzard that was released on July 27th, 2010. This thread is for general discussion with no real focus within the game.

We play together Saturday nights, starting at 5 EST. Come join us in the GitP chat channel!

Team Liquid Wiki (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Main_Page): Good for whatever you are looking for
Team Liquid Ladder Guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273): Everything else you're looking for.
GiTP Rankings (http://sc2ranks.com/c/680): Sign up to track where you are in relation to the rest of us!

Past Threads:
One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142825)
Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158508)
Three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165601)
Four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176154)
Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189933)
Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11112895)
Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214818)
Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232006)

Sharing replays:

1) Save your replay in Battlenet. Give it a descriptive name.
2) Find replay on hard drive. Usually in My documents/starcraft2/user#/users#/replays/multiplayer
3) upload it to a file share site. http://www.sc2replayed.com/ is good, as is www.sc2rep.com , and so is others.
4) post link here.

Downloading replays:

1) click on link
2) download file
3) to launch, double click on replay file or drag replay file onto starcraft2 shortcut. sometimes need to log in, but plays immediately.



Names and Identifiers

North America
Forum name (BnetName.identifier)

742 (Sillose.383)
Acanous (Acanous.667)
AgentPaper (Agentpaper.977)
Anatharon (Anatharon.802)
aNooburak (eRiKu.496)
arguskos (TBCarguskos.456)
Aramil Liadon (Woodwings.652)
Artanis (Legacy.229)
Battleship789 (Catalyst.418)
BobVosh (BobVosh.644)
Cybren (Cybren.412)
Cynan Machae (Cynan.623)
DarkMemnarch (DarkMemnarch.356)
Darth Mario (DarthMario.672)
D Lord (DLord.884)
Drago (Drago.331)
Draken (Draken.523)
DrizztFan24 (LGND.926)
Emlyn (Emlyn.368)
Erianthe (Erianthe.149)
fknm (Obscura.304)
Forbiddenwar (ForbiddenWar.910)
Gamerlord (Gamerlord.238)
GolemsVoice (Luke.251)
Gralamin (Gralamin.290)
imperialspectre (fiendish.807)
Jamin (Jamin.892)
Joseph Silver (EternalDalek.756)
Kelaos (Kelaos.388)
Khosan (Khosan.265)
KillItWithFire (Reshyk.394)
Kirbot (Kirbot.617)
Kizara (StarMoon.676)
Kranden (Kranden.677)
Kris Strife (Kris.293)
Kumo (Kumo.399)
Kyeudo (Kyeudo.987)
Legoshrimp (Legoshrimp.749)
Lykos (Lykos.754)
Meatshield#236 (Rogue.505)
MonarchAnarch (Monarch.202)
Mutant Sheep (Fourhand.480)
Nathan W (Player.231)
Othesemo (Alarin.214)
Pie Guy (Qwazes.622)
ragingrage(ragingrage.429)
Raroy (Raroy.157)
Recaidden (Recaiden.549)
Rigel Cyrosea (Rigel.753)
Sarom (mmsharpeye.912)
Semidi (Semidi.124)
Shadow_Elf (MariachiDuck.174)
ShneekyTheLost (Shneekey.210)
Silverraptor (Silverraptor.206)
sofawall (sofawall.971)
Stasgard (Stasgard.720)
Tavar (Tavar.666)
The Glyphstone (Glyphstone.667)
The Orange Zergling (Tacgnol.889)
TheFieryTower (TFT.294)
Thiyr (RianL.377)
Thrawn183 (Thrawnyboy.188)
Toasty (Toastymow.598)
Warnix (WarNiX.589)
Zocelot (Jeremeister.540)


Europe
Forum name (BnetName.identifier)


Anonomuss (Anonomuss.998)
Eldariel (Eldariel.350)
Exachix (Exachix.843)
kme (knjiga.693)
KuReshtin (KuReshtin.876)
Lord Herman (Herman.789)
Newhill (Newhill.282)
Oslecamo (Onard.759)
Penthar (Malderon.607)
Rhydeble (rhydeble.360)
Saph (Saph.476)
Warnix (Warnix.332)


South East Asia
Forum name (BnetName.identifier)

aNooburak (Brian.622)
AslanCross (AslanJCross.148)
Sarom (request by PM)


Edit: although we might want to start with a new list since a lot of people on this list are inactive.

[Happy Gravity]

Edit: although we might want to start with a new list since a lot of people on this list are inactive.
Yes, probably.

[Lheticus]

Quick clarificational question--Battle.net describes Heart of the Swarm as an "upgrade" for $20. If I paid for that, the human campaign would still be playable right?

[Winthur]

Quick clarificational question--Battle.net describes Heart of the Swarm as an "upgrade" for $20. If I paid for that, the human campaign would still be playable right?

Yes.
the fact that you have to ask for that says a lot about the current game industry

[Lheticus]

Yes.
the fact that you have to ask for that says a lot about the current game industry

Yes. Yes it does. >_<

[Destro_Yersul]

I Haven't played SC2 since Wings of Liberty, and even then I never played the multiplayer much. I do, however, greatly enjoy casts of it - to the point where SC2 is my spectator sport of choice. Unfortunately Husky hasn't been posting videos lately, and neither has TB. Maybe I should take up watching Day9 or Artosis.

[Ionbound]

Day9 is pretty great. He's very much in the style of TB and Husky, and fun-loving in his own way. Don't know enough about Artosis to make a call on him, though.

[Winthur]

Day9 is pretty great. He's very much in the style of TB and Husky
In style maybe, but Day9 has way more expertise over both of them, and I kinda like his sense of humour better. I don't think TB's commentary is in any way insightful, because he's more of a "first impressions" guy. And I don't like his taste in video games.

and fun-loving in his own way. Don't know enough about Artosis to make a call on him, though.
Artosis is a godlike caster, especially in duo with Tasteless, who happens to be Day9's brother. Just youtube 'Tastosis' or 'Tasteless Artosis' for minutes of hilarious footage. He also ruined IdrA's day. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlc0S8LLtsg)

[Destro_Yersul]

In style maybe, but Day9 has way more expertise over both of them, and I kinda like his sense of humour better. I don't think TB's commentary is in any way insightful, because he's more of a "first impressions" guy. And I don't like his taste in video games.

TB himself admits he's not good at analysis. It's why he brought Artosis in to cast the SHOUTcraft invitational with him. He is quite funny, though, and I do like his taste in games. Aside from platformers, which he is not good at, TB is a pretty good barometer of whether or not I'll like a given game.

I do think he likes option menus a tad too much, though. :smalltongue:

[Winthur]

Aside from platformers, which he is not good at, TB is a pretty good barometer of whether or not I'll like a given game.

Guess we're completely opposite because since I saw him praising Hitman Absolution and Thi4f, and the footage from those, I'd argue he's not really good at most games and our tastes are incompatible.

I'd assume he was a color commentator? I wouldn't mind that.

BTW, anyone knows what's up with White-Ra? He doesn't seem to stream much anymore and he only posts VODs from BW on his YT channel. Is he retired now?

[Destro_Yersul]

Guess we're completely opposite because since I saw him praising Hitman Absolution and Thi4f, and the footage from those, I'd argue he's not really good at most games and our tastes are incompatible.

I'd assume he was a color commentator? I wouldn't mind that.

BTW, anyone knows what's up with White-Ra? He doesn't seem to stream much anymore and he only posts VODs from BW on his YT channel. Is he retired now?

If you think he's bad at those, try watching him play Shovel Knight. :smalltongue:

Re: White-Ra, I think I heard something about him retiring a while back? I could be wrong, though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Guess we're completely opposite because since I saw him praising Hitman Absolution and Thi4f, and the footage from those, I'd argue he's not really good at most games and our tastes are incompatible.

Yeah, he does this thing called "judging remakes for what they are, not what the previous games were". Which is a pretty YMMV thing, some people don't care how similar it is to previous games of the series, others value the brand legacy highly.

[Winthur]

Yeah, he does this thing called "judging remakes for what they are, not what the previous games were".

theyareprettybadontheirowntoo

at the very least, i don't trust his expertise on stealth games

i kinda liked his deus ex video though

[Happy Gravity]

theyareprettybadontheirowntoo
My poor eyeballs.


Yeah, he does this thing called "judging remakes for what they are, not what the previous games were". Which is a pretty YMMV thing, some people don't care how similar it is to previous games of the series, others value the brand legacy highly.
Honestly, if they're going to glue these games to a preexisting franchise with a bit of a legacy behind them, they *should* be judged in comparison to the games they're piggybacking.

On a more Starcrafty note, I see that nobody else has thrown their character name and number out into the ring in this thread. Come on, guys!

[Legoshrimp]

My poor eyeballs.


Honestly, if they're going to glue these games to a preexisting franchise with a bit of a legacy behind them, they *should* be judged in comparison to the games they're piggybacking.

On a more Starcrafty note, I see that nobody else has thrown their character name and number out into the ring in this thread. Come on, guys!

my bnet is legoshrimp#1722, not 100% sure what my starcraft one is. But I think its reasonable to just use bnet, since a lot of people play multiple blizzard games anyways.

[Lheticus]

bnet = LheticusSeer#1320. Those looking to pwn me rather than helping me learn the game need not apply. ;)

[Lheticus]

Quick question--there are units in the human campaign that you can't access in multiplayer, right? For one, I thought that medics weren't able to be produced.

[Ionbound]

Yup. Same with the Zerg campaign. They ported some of the old units (Wraiths, Medics, other stuff), but they're not in multiplayer.

[Artanis]

Quick question--there are units in the human campaign that you can't access in multiplayer, right? For one, I thought that medics weren't able to be produced.
A LOT of them. What's more, those that are available in multiplayer are often significantly different than their multiplayer equivalents, made useless by the differences in how singleplayer missions play out vs. multiplayer games, or both.

[Happy Gravity]

My advice? Don't play the campaign and jump into multiplayer expecting the same kind of experience.

Biggest outlier, for me at least:
The Zerg campaign flat-out dumbs down Queens, giving them an autocast heal and the ability to spawn creep tumors without energy, as well as taking away a significant macro ability.

Multiplayer (that is, *real* Queens :P ) Queens have all energy-based abilities. They have a heal, but it's limited to manual casting. They have the ability to inject larva into a hatchery, vastly increasing your ability to build waves of units, which serves as the Zerg's macro mechanic (which is far less forgiving than the other two races, but I'll whine about that later if I feel like it). They still have the Spawn Creep Tumor ability, but it costs energy.

Using Queens in the campaign doesn't prepare you at all for what they're used for in multiplayer.

[Thiyr]

Oh hey, starcraft thread again. I'm all for this. Pretty sure my info is still in my sig. Been doing mostly arcade lately, admittedly, but I'm still around :D

Edit: Yep, still in the sig. Because Starcraft. Aww yiss.

[Legoshrimp]

My advice? Don't play the campaign and jump into multiplayer expecting the same kind of experience.

Biggest outlier, for me at least:
The Zerg campaign flat-out dumbs down Queens, giving them an autocast heal and the ability to spawn creep tumors without energy, as well as taking away a significant macro ability.

Multiplayer (that is, *real* Queens :P ) Queens have all energy-based abilities. They have a heal, but it's limited to manual casting. They have the ability to inject larva into a hatchery, vastly increasing your ability to build waves of units, which serves as the Zerg's macro mechanic (which is far less forgiving than the other two races, but I'll whine about that later if I feel like it). They still have the Spawn Creep Tumor ability, but it costs energy.

Using Queens in the campaign doesn't prepare you at all for what they're used for in multiplayer.

I don't think the campaign in sc2 is really at all good for preparing you how to play the race in MP. I think WoL was a bit better then hots though. In hots you can pretty literally not build units and just use kerrigan.

So I want to play sc! send me a meassage on battle.net(legoshrimp#1722) or steam (legoshrimp) if you want to play.

[Rodin]

The Zerg campaign I just got the free Zerglings and immortal Ultralisks and just spammed them. It was basically impossible to die since the Zerglings would respawn faster than they could destroy your base, and Ultralisks that respawn on the battlefield were simply ludicrous.

I was pretty disappointed with HotS's story mode, which is why I got the game in the first place. After WoL's excellent campaign, HotS felt like they phoned it in.

[Happy Gravity]

Playing the campaign on Brutal is basically the "normal" difficulty setting for me. :P

[Gandariel]

yay, Starcraft! Haven't played in a while, but i give it a spin every now and then. Also tournaments on Twitch are always interesting to watch

[Legoshrimp]

Yeah and there are almost daily high level games being played with WCS.

[Lheticus]

I'm trying to look up build orders, but the first I found on Liquipedia seem outdated--it says a Terran Barracks requires 0 Vespene when it actually requires 65--all the build orders for Terran seem skewed from this.

[Gandariel]

.. Barracks do not require any Vespene. No building in the entire game requires 65 Vespene. Maybe that is the construction time?

[Lheticus]

.. Barracks do not require any Vespene. No building in the entire game requires 65 Vespene. Maybe that is the construction time?

Gah...yeah, I am the derp. It was green and round looking!

[Gandariel]

i can probably fetch you a build order if you need. You play Terran? or are you trying all the races?

[Lheticus]

i can probably fetch you a build order if you need. You play Terran? or are you trying all the races?

I'm trying to play Terran. The experiment I didn't mention in this thread is nearly ready to begin--I want to beat a Zerg Rush AI on Hard, then all 3 races on Hard with a random strategy, then I'll feel prepared to start matchmaking. Yesterday, I beat the AI on Normal, so I moved on to Hard...and got stomped without even knowing why. Our forces met each other and seemed pretty even, but mine got ran over. I think it was because of a problem with how my guys were lined up.

[Gandariel]

Ever heard of stutter stepping/kiting ?

Basically, units like marines only shoot every so often (0.86 seconds, IIRC).
Marines are ranged, and zerglings are melee, so you need to stay away from them as much as possible.

Shoot the enemy, then move back a bit, then shoot again, etc.
Basically, you have to make a rapid series of move command (right click on the ground) => attack-move (a+left click on the ground) => move command etc.

This makes you shoot as many times as possible, while also staying away from the enemy for as much as possible. This is an important skill you should master.

This youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/TutorialCentralSc2) has a LOT of interesting that could help you.

In particular, This one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyIdYXL8we8&list=PLiejbQlQAdGnU--XeYrZjZmLgjMzk32zL&index=25) talks about kiting, which is what you were talking about.

Also, you might want to learn how to make a building wall :)

[Legoshrimp]

Although the easiest(maybe not)/best way to improve your performance is macro. Which is basically just how efficient/quickly you mine, and spend resources. So if you can get really good macro, even if you don't have very good unit control, it won't matter as much because you have 2x the units.

[Grif]

Although the easiest(maybe not)/best way to improve your performance is macro. Which is basically just how efficient/quickly you mine, and spend resources. So if you can get really good macro, even if you don't have very good unit control, it won't matter as much because you have 2x the units.

I agree to this. Fancy micro and kiting does you no good if your macro can't keep up. You can get Gold merely by having better macro (and of course, basic strategy) and then attack-moving at his base.

[Lheticus]

Ever heard of stutter stepping/kiting ?

Basically, units like marines only shoot every so often (0.86 seconds, IIRC).
Marines are ranged, and zerglings are melee, so you need to stay away from them as much as possible.

Shoot the enemy, then move back a bit, then shoot again, etc.
Basically, you have to make a rapid series of move command (right click on the ground) => attack-move (a+left click on the ground) => move command etc.

This makes you shoot as many times as possible, while also staying away from the enemy for as much as possible. This is an important skill you should master.

This youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/TutorialCentralSc2) has a LOT of interesting that could help you.

In particular, This one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyIdYXL8we8&list=PLiejbQlQAdGnU--XeYrZjZmLgjMzk32zL&index=25) talks about kiting, which is what you were talking about.

Also, you might want to learn how to make a building wall :)

That's exactly what the problem was--somehow, don't ask me how because I don't know, I had my marines out in front ahead of my 2 Thors. They rather got slaughtered.

[Lheticus]

Although the easiest(maybe not)/best way to improve your performance is macro. Which is basically just how efficient/quickly you mine, and spend resources. So if you can get really good macro, even if you don't have very good unit control, it won't matter as much because you have 2x the units.

Yeah...there's a bit of a basic basics question that I've not found the answer to without actually asking a person, I think because it's just THAT basic...at what point do you stop making SCVs at the very start of the game to lay down the Barracks?

[Legoshrimp]

Yeah...there's a bit of a basic basics question that I've not found the answer to without actually asking a person, I think because it's just THAT basic...at what point do you stop making SCVs at the very start of the game to lay down the Barracks?

never.

You basically should be constantly making scvs until you have 2-3 optimized bases (so I think 16 on minerals(or 2 per patch), and 6 on gas(3 per geyser)) I think having a few more on minerals can improve income some, but it isn't that much, and having another base would be better. Also you will want to get an orbital command pretty quickly, and then keep its energy low by spamming mules. But in some match ups making sure you have some energy for scan to detect and kill stealth is important.

You want around 70 workers I think (changes some) before you stop really making workers. But with 70 workers you also want 3 or 4 active bases.

[Lheticus]

never.

You basically should be constantly making scvs until you have 2-3 optimized bases (so I think 16 on minerals(or 2 per patch), and 6 on gas(3 per geyser)) I think having a few more on minerals can improve income some, but it isn't that much, and having another base would be better. Also you will want to get an orbital command pretty quickly, and then keep its energy low by spamming mules. But in some match ups making sure you have some energy for scan to detect and kill stealth is important.

You want around 70 workers I think (changes some) before you stop really making workers. But with 70 workers you also want 3 or 4 active bases.

Um...I'm not sure about this. I mean, if I'm constantly adding SCVs to the queue, wouldn't I have like 15 of them by the time I'm even building my first Barracks? Like, each one is 50 minerals, if I keep adding to the queue, reaching 150 for a Barracks will take a lot longer than it needs to. I mean...like ALL the Terran builds I'm looking up say to start putting down structures when you start using 10 supply.

[Lheticus]

Just thought of another question--why do so many builds I'm seeing tell me to build a second or even 3rd command center? What's the point? Do I build it separate from where my base starting location is?

[Legoshrimp]

Um...I'm not sure about this. I mean, if I'm constantly adding SCVs to the queue, wouldn't I have like 15 of them by the time I'm even building my first Barracks? Like, each one is 50 minerals, if I keep adding to the queue, reaching 150 for a Barracks will take a lot longer than it needs to. I mean...like ALL the Terran builds I'm looking up say to start putting down structures when you start using 10 supply.
Avoid queuing units up, anything that queued is wasted resources. So you should be able to build a barracks at I think 12 or 13 supply while constantly BUILDING, not just queuing when you get 50 minerals, only queue another one right before the one currently being built is about to finish. The first thing you build is a supply depot, and around 10 sounds right for it.



Just thought of another question--why do so many builds I'm seeing tell me to build a second or even 3rd command center? What's the point? Do I build it separate from where my base starting location is?

Yes, there is normally a very obvious first place to expand. then after that basically proximity to you is a good indicate of where to expand next.

[Gandariel]

Answer to question 1: Yes, keep building workers.
When you find yourself with 100 minerals build a depo
When you find yourself with 150 minerals build a barracks.
That's how it works.

(Of course it depends on the build order, you might wanna go early gas, or a command center)


which brings us to question two.

Yeah.
You need to expand to win games (usually).
There are "expansion locations" all over the map, including one very near your starting location (this is true for every map)
Very few strategies only rely on having one base , and they're often considered "cheesy" or "rush" tactics.
In regular games people play on 2-3 bases. Zergs tend to have more

Zergs usually expand as the first thing they do in a game, and Terran and Protoss do very early expansions too.

[Winthur]

Just thought of another question--why do so many builds I'm seeing tell me to build a second or even 3rd command center? What's the point?
Not only does it give you more supply, it also lets you make another base from where to gain resources. You have to keep making bases throughout the game, and have more than one base. No reason to make bases when resources in the first one have depleted - you need your economy to keep being stronger so that you can field forces faster. Tech-heavy builds will require a lot of gas, way more than your initial 2 geysers can cover.


Do I build it separate from where my base starting location is?
No need to as a Terran, as you can lift off that building and place it at an expansion point.

[Ionbound]

Also, for the record, if you start a depot at 10, you'll be supply blocked. You need to start it at 9.

[Gandariel]

LOL we all ninja'd each other :P

Also, i'm a little out of practice but would be happy to play a few games. Leaving tomorrow, so does anyone wanna play me? Today or tomorrow?

[Ionbound]

It's been a while since I've played, but sure. I don't actually have you as a friend, though. Who are you?

[Gandariel]

What server? US, i assume? Then my username is FleetBacon (number 241)

Everyone else is welcome to add me and poke me for a game, of course. After tomorrow i won't be able to play for most of the month, but still

[Ionbound]

There, added. It says you're offline, though.

[Gandariel]

yeah i just went online. i see no reuests though. Try adding me again

[Lheticus]

I've had a thought about my SCII experiment. For those of you not following the "Lheticus is a flaming n00b" thread, I proposed that I'd get the basics down a bit, then do the five placement matches, and one match after that--and see if I get curbstomped on that sixth match.

Well, lately, I've been making plans to learn the hotkeys, study a build order or two, etc, etc...only, wouldn't that sort of compromise the experiment? The objective is to see if some bright-eyed bushy tailed player who has no idea what they'd be in for at any level of the game resembling proper could be matched up against people who wouldn't pwn him after the five placement games. I think because of that if I was to actually go in using my knowledge of what a "proper" game is like, it would skew the results. To preserve the validity of the experiment, I feel I should play according to what the game creates as the intuitive sense of how it's played--not using hotkeys or keyboard shortcuts like attack-move, and not super-continuously producing miner units--maybe not even upgrading a command center, and not playing a second one very quickly at all. I mean...that IS how a totally new player would probably do it, right?

Oh, and another thing--I now know that Heart of the Swarm is different from Wings of Liberty even in PvP mode. Will the matchmaking system even FIND someone else not using the expansion for me to play against?!

[The Glyphstone]

That's how someone who had never played an RTS before would do it...badly. Your goal is to get good. This will not be advanced by deliberately shooting yourself in the foot before the starting gate opens...it will in fact distort the experiment in the other direction. People who don't want to get good don't research build orders or use hotkeys...they also don't play multiplayer matches very often. Your opponents will have done this research...or at the very least, they will have played the Tutorial scenarios provided with the game. You should do those even if you don't want to research, it's a core packaged part of the game meant by Blizzard to substitute, to some degree, for the need to research anything.

[Lheticus]

That's how someone who had never played an RTS before would do it...badly. Your goal is to get good. This will not be advanced by deliberately shooting yourself in the foot before the starting gate opens...it will in fact distort the experiment in the other direction. People who don't want to get good don't research build orders or use hotkeys...they also don't play multiplayer matches very often. Your opponents will have done this research...or at the very least, they will have played the Tutorial scenarios provided with the game. You should do those even if you don't want to research, it's a core packaged part of the game meant by Blizzard to substitute, to some degree, for the need to research anything.

Tutorial scenarios for PvP? Um, where even ARE those? O_O But...are you trying to say that virtually NO ONE ever plays at that kind of level?

[The Glyphstone]

Tutorial scenarios for PvP? Um, where even ARE those? O_O But...are you trying to say that virtually NO ONE ever plays at that kind of level?

No one who's doing more than goofing off.

The scenarios are called Challenge Missions, they're found under the Campaign tab. They're exercises in improving your macro and micro skills, which are the fundamental building blocks of PvP.

[Artanis]

Back in WoL, I got to high Silver/low Gold just by looking up a solid all-around early build order and some general what-to-do-next stuff. I don't remember the exact numbers (and even if I did it'd be horridly obsolete by now anyways), but it looked something like:
Start of game: Pylon at 9 supply, Gateway at 12, Gas at 14, Pylon at 15, Zealot and Cyber Core when Gateway finishes.
Rest of game: Expand every now and then to finance Colossi and Stalker spam. Remember to upgrade. A-move Colossus-backed Stalkerballs in the enemy's general direction.

...yeah, I sucked, but hey, it worked well enough to get me a low-Gold MMR.

[Winthur]

...yeah, I sucked, but hey, it worked well enough to get me a low-Gold MMR.

Hey, when I played the beta, I pretty much didn't do anything except spam Roaches every game and it always somehow worked. :smalltongue:

[Grif]

Hey, when I played the beta, I pretty much didn't do anything except spam Roaches every game and it always somehow worked. :smalltongue:

Damned roach spam. :smalltongue: (It was scary good in the early stage of WOL.)

[Winthur]

Damned roach spam. :smalltongue: (It was scary good in the early stage of WOL.)

Yes, especially when someone told me Queens are for injecting larvae.

Until then 5 Hatch Roach was still pretty boss.

[GloatingSwine]

Back in WoL, I got to high Silver/low Gold just by looking up a solid all-around early build order and some general what-to-do-next stuff. I don't remember the exact numbers (and even if I did it'd be horridly obsolete by now anyways), but it looked something like:
Start of game: Pylon at 9 supply, Gateway at 12, Gas at 14, Pylon at 15, Zealot and Cyber Core when Gateway finishes.
Rest of game: Expand every now and then to finance Colossi and Stalker spam. Remember to upgrade. A-move Colossus-backed Stalkerballs in the enemy's general direction.

...yeah, I sucked, but hey, it worked well enough to get me a low-Gold MMR.

The Terran equivalent is to build 4-5 rax and build the largest marine/marauder deathball you can and roll it around the map, add medivacs/additional rax when starport.

(PS: This will also win literally every campaign map in WoL at least up to hard difficulty, so you can practise the build order easily)

[Hiro Protagonest]

I stopped playing about a month ago after I hit a wall where I was getting the exact same problem every game and couldn't fix it without simply thinking and moving faster. I averaged something like 55 APM if you don't count those couple slow minutes at the start (even when I troes to do a bunch of redundant stuff on those minutes to get a more accurate average it was quite low). I should probably start playing again. Does anyone know good bio mine openings for TvP and TvT? I used a reaper fast expand build for TvZ.

But I'll give some insight. Do simple builds. Thinking creatively comes after thinking fast enough to maintain that build into the midgame. Plus, you'll naturally gain a greater understanding the higher level you get, and low level "creativeness" is subpar, although you might get some wins if the strategy just comes out of nowhere because nobody uses it.

Ultimately, the trick is to keep things as simple as possible because even the most basic build have like three or four different things you have to keep track of, before you start thinking about what you opponent's doing. Build marines from barracks, one type of unit other than Thor from factory (jf you choose Hellion or Hellbat you can also do the other), and medivac from starport. You can make marauders from your barracks with a tech lab, but that's not necessary. During the midgame, if you find yourself spending all your minerals, make more workers. If all your bases have sixteen workers, expand. Keep building barracks, make sure you're always making units, make sure you're building supply until you get to 200.

If the simple bio mine or bio tank builds are still too complicated, try to focus on improving rather than winning, and use the limitations of a learning method called The Staircase (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/374400-thestaircase-an-alternative-improvement-method).

Learn good habits. Use control groups and hotkeys a lot. Look at the minimap. Day9 used to do something called Newbie Tuesday, I'd recommend going through the YouTube playlist, though his other stuff is about high-level concepts and strategies so it simply doesn't matter until you get to that level. I think it starts at Diamond? Maybe Platinum. This Tuesday video (http://youtu.be/RUohpQKVf_A) is a good one for some of the basic concepts. Tutorial Central SC2 is a smaller channel I like as well, he talks about some basic concepts and macro, and some microing and counter tricks, just don't take the Bronze Science (the thumbnails have the name in bronze color) seriously. :smalltongue: think anything relevant to Terran will be in his Terran playlist, whether or not it also applies to the other races.

[Happy Gravity]

APM isn't as important as knowing what to do, being organized, and knowing what your opponent is capable of doing.

I got to Diamond in WoL with like 40~ APM on average by scouting consistently, hotkeying my hatcheries, queens, and army units, and knowing how to recognize certain builds and what to do against them.

[Gandariel]

I like the idea of the Staircase, but not exactly how it pans out in the end.



I'd just say:

Level 1) Only Minerals. Spam marines, barracks, depos.
Level 1.5) The same, but expand too.
Level 2) Add Gas. Only add Marauders, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and Stim.
Level 3) Add Medivacs, bio upgrades.
Level 4) Experiment, one at a time, the other units
Level 5) ???
Level 6) Win the next GSL

[Hiro Protagonest]

I like the idea of the Staircase, but not exactly how it pans out in the end.



I'd just say:

Level 1) Only Minerals. Spam marines, barracks, depos.
Level 1.5) The same, but expand too.
Level 2) Add Gas. Only add Marauders, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and Stim.
Level 3) Add Medivacs, bio upgrades.
Level 4) Experiment, one at a time, the other units
Level 5) ???
Level 6) Win the next GSL

Yeah, you probably are better off just going for Marine/Marauder/Medivac than doing the hellion thing of the standard Step 2.

[Ionbound]

See, is it wrong that I really hate Terran because the main strategy is MMMM? Or, against protoss MMMV? It's just so boring. Why do my battlecruisers suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck????

[OrcusMcP]

Hey, when I played the beta, I pretty much didn't do anything except spam Roaches every game and it always somehow worked. :smalltongue:

Ah, the gold old days of beta when roaches were 1 supply. Those were fun days.

[Hiro Protagonest]

See, is it wrong that I really hate Terran because the main strategy is MMMM? Or, against protoss MMMV? It's just so boring. Why do my battlecruisers suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck????

Flash uses Battlecruisers! :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Battlecruisers are actually decent, but you have to survive until 35 minutes into the game :D
Along with Vikings and Ravens they make up the veryveryvery lategame terran army.

By the way, i've seen a lot of Protoss going Phoenix/colossus style. Looks cool!

Another note, i've seen ZvZs open with hidden Spore crawler, hilarious.
You basically build a spore as hidden as possible, when the enemy overlord comes around you uproot, move it under it, root, and kill the ovie together with the queen.

[Ionbound]

Flash uses Battlecruisers! :smalltongue:

Well, yeah, that's Flash though. Flash is god. But yeah. I find the sheer difficulty of doing anything as Terran other than MMMM or MMMV very annoying. Protoss can go Stalker/Colossus, or Stalker/Archon, or Immortals or whatever, and Zerg has even more options than that (Which is fine, mind. Zerg is the reactive race), while it seems most Terran games, even on the pro scene are "MM...Medivacs...Mines/Hellbats..." and then the game usually end there one way or another.

I like tech units, and I feel like there isn't really any room to use them as Terran. Marathon Terran games are so great because you really get to use all the cool units like Thors and BCs, but it seems like that only ever happens in very few games that are very exhausting just from the sheer length.

[Gandariel]

With the conjoined upgrades, Terran Mech is actually pretty potent. Look up some build orders!

[Lighturtle]

You basically build a spore as hidden as possible, when the enemy overlord comes around you uproot, move it under it, root, and kill the ovie together with the queen.

You got a replay?

I love those dumb copper-league strategies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8dJ_7NhHts)

Also (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JITVFrQAwO8)

[Lheticus]

I like the idea of the Staircase, but not exactly how it pans out in the end.



I'd just say:

Level 1) Only Minerals. Spam marines, barracks, depos.
Level 1.5) The same, but expand too.
Level 2) Add Gas. Only add Marauders, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and Stim.
Level 3) Add Medivacs, bio upgrades.
Level 4) Experiment, one at a time, the other units
Level 5) ???
Level 6) Win the next GSL

What about upgrade buildings? Engineering Bay and Armory?

[Mutant Sheep]

What about upgrade buildings? Engineering Bay and Armory?

That falls under lvl 3's "add bio upgrades". :smalltongue: Praise annoying and exclusive terminologies!
(For an actual answer on when to do terran upgrades, 2/2 by 20 minutes is a decent goal to set yourself if you aren't used to the game. I still prefer rush hellions though. Need to find that replay...:smallamused:)
*looks at thread*
YOU EXIST AGAIN. :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Lheticus]

YOU EXIST AGAIN. :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

...Huminawha? You mean the thread? Well you're welcome! ^_^

[Gandariel]

You got a replay?

I love those dumb copper-league strategies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8dJ_7NhHts)

Also (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JITVFrQAwO8)

It's actually a high level play too.

I don't have a replay, but today I saw a ZvZ with Jaedong where it happened.

I mean, the other guy tried it, JD turned his overlord immediately after seeing the hatch and th e other guy canceled the spore.

[Lheticus]

I like the idea of the Staircase, but not exactly how it pans out in the end.



I'd just say:

Level 1) Only Minerals. Spam marines, barracks, depos.
Level 1.5) The same, but expand too.
Level 2) Add Gas. Only add Marauders, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and Stim.
Level 3) Add Medivacs, bio upgrades.
Level 4) Experiment, one at a time, the other units
Level 5) ???
Level 6) Win the next GSL

Clarificational question--when do I move on from each level?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Clarificational question--when do I move on from each level?

Same as in the standard Staircase. When GGTracker says your economy skills are good enough. The details on GGTracker are in the link to The Staircase. What GGTracker does is provide more detailed stats on replays that you upload to it. You do have to find the replays in your files though. They're in the StarCraft II folder in Documents. Then you go to the folder shortcut that has your game name on it (even though there's a folder named Replays), then you go to the Replays in that and then Multiplayer (Unsaved might work if you don't want to permanently save them? I'm not sure. I just checked auto-save in the game).

[Gandariel]

Or just, " when you feel you are doing well and are in good control of everythimg"
Never too much money in the bank, not too much time spent supply blocked, always having a decent amount of units, scouting what the opponent has, attacking him.

Don't ever try playing against preset enemies (like zerg rush ai). It teaches you nothing. Play always against random opponents.
Keep increasing the ai level, and then play unranked matches.

Unranked matches should be with people at very low level, since everyone else has zero reason to play in that format (unlike hearthstone, where you still get gold and quests)
Also, they try to pit you against people with similar skill (MMR)

[Lheticus]

Same as in the standard Staircase. When GGTracker says your economy skills are good enough. The details on GGTracker are in the link to The Staircase. What GGTracker does is provide more detailed stats on replays that you upload to it. You do have to find the replays in your files though. They're in the StarCraft II folder in Documents. Then you go to the folder shortcut that has your game name on it (even though there's a folder named Replays), then you go to the Replays in that and then Multiplayer (Unsaved might work if you don't want to permanently save them? I'm not sure. I just checked auto-save in the game).

"When GGTracker says my economy skills are good enough."

Um, how do I tell this exactly? Also, I think GGTracker is derping today or something, it said the AI was set to Elite when I uploaded the replay when in fact it was set to Normal. Didn't stop it from pwning the attack force I sent totally up the butt only losing one unit.


Or just, " when you feel you are doing well and are in good control of everythimg"
Never too much money in the bank, not too much time spent supply blocked, always having a decent amount of units, scouting what the opponent has, attacking him.

Don't ever try playing against preset enemies (like zerg rush ai). It teaches you nothing. Play always against random opponents.
Keep increasing the ai level, and then play unranked matches.

Unranked matches should be with people at very low level, since everyone else has zero reason to play in that format (unlike hearthstone, where you still get gold and quests)
Also, they try to pit you against people with similar skill (MMR)

Um, using that stair method of starting out doing just marines and barracks, I don't think I'll ever get there. By the time I was getting up to 4 Barracks, I had made a LOT of SCVs and so the mins were coming in WAY faster than I could deal with them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"When GGTracker says my economy skills are good enough."

Um, how do I tell this exactly? Also, I think GGTracker is derping today or something, it said the AI was set to Elite when I uploaded the replay when in fact it was set to Normal. Didn't stop it from pwning the attack force I sent totally up the butt only losing one unit.
When looking at the replay stats, it'll give you a badge under "spending skill". This ranges from low bronze to grandmaster. You pick a league you want to be at, and then keep playing in that step until you get the right badge regularly (bronze/silver/gold are v stripes that I forget the name of and the appropriate color, high bronze/silver/gold look a little bit fancy in addition to that, platinum is platinum eagle, diamond is diamond, master is star, grandmaster is orange-ish star).

In addition to spending skill, click "economy" right below "overview" and it'll show how good your base saturation speed was. That's also a pretty important stat.

Um, using that stair method of starting out doing just marines and barracks, I don't think I'll ever get there. By the time I was getting up to 4 Barracks, I had made a LOT of SCVs and so the mins were coming in WAY faster than I could deal with them.

More barracks. More supply depots. More marines.

The only limit on how many army production buildings you can have is how many resources you can spend. It doesn't take population to power a building or anything like that. The thing about the mineral-only strategy is that you are constantly making more marines until you can simply overwhelm whatever your opponent has (which doesn't work for opponents that built the proper counter to that, but that's why this game is competitive).

Honestly though with the low cost of marines it is pretty hard to spend all those minerals on just marines and bunkers. I'd recommend moving on when you're making them so fast you have to put two SCVs on active supply depot duty (you should always have one, but in the midgame you'll need two or three to keep up. There is a limit of 200 supply though).

[Gandariel]

"When GGTracker says my economy skills are good enough."

Um, how do I tell this exactly? Also, I think GGTracker is derping today or something, it said the AI was set to Elite when I uploaded the replay when in fact it was set to Normal. Didn't stop it from pwning the attack force I sent totally up the butt only losing one unit.



Um, using that stair method of starting out doing just marines and barracks, I don't think I'll ever get there. By the time I was getting up to 4 Barracks, I had made a LOT of SCVs and so the mins were coming in WAY faster than I could deal with them.

Well, actually you should be able to spend all your money even with just barracks and depos.
I'm not sure of what you said, did you win or lose against the AI?
Anyways I'd say practice until you can defeat easily Hard AI, then move to Unranked PvP.

Also, general tip. When you fight, don't watch the fight. At least at this level. Just a-move your army towards the enemy and get back to your bases to make sure you're building stuff. Then go back, see how it went and decide (run back, push, etc).

Remember shift+action to give multiple commands (like building more than one thing, or building something and then going back to work)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I will say that pre-beta for WoL I was hoping against hope that they would transition to a squad-based system ala WH40k Dawn of War series. Instead of making a single marine, you make a marine squad, which can be reinforced for more marines (with little drop pod animations to add them in) and upgrades from marines to add in marauders or firebats in the squad, with a medic as a possible second-tier upgrade or possibly hero to attach to them. Ghost would have been a unique caster unit (much like a Psyker). That would make the vehicles truly amazing, particularly if you kept the scale. Imagine, if you will, a Siege Tank actually being the size of, say, a Leeman-Russ or even the Space Marine tank. Then you could use the Ork mechanic for the zerg, being able to build up like twenty 'lings in a single squad, with the squad bonuses stacking up like the orks do. Hydra squads are their ranged unit, with roaches as their 'heavy infantry' unit. Ultralisks are 'vehicles'.

Ahh well, such is life. However, I will say that I approve of the ending of HotS. That was a beatdown that a long time in coming.

[Lheticus]

I like the idea of the Staircase, but not exactly how it pans out in the end.



I'd just say:

Level 1) Only Minerals. Spam marines, barracks, depos.
Level 1.5) The same, but expand too.
Level 2) Add Gas. Only add Marauders, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and Stim.
Level 3) Add Medivacs, bio upgrades.
Level 4) Experiment, one at a time, the other units
Level 5) ???
Level 6) Win the next GSL

Again pertaining to this, is there anywhere at all Orbital Command comes into this?

[Gandariel]

Orbital commanxs: immediately. Turn all of your command centers in Orbitals as soon as you can and start pumping out those effects.

The best one is MULE (gives 240 minerals), scan is effective if you need to scout. Supply drop is bad but if you're supply blocked it mightget you out of trouble

[Lheticus]

Orbital commanxs: immediately. Turn all of your command centers in Orbitals as soon as you can and start pumping out those effects.

The best one is MULE (gives 240 minerals), scan is effective if you need to scout. Supply drop is bad but if you're supply blocked it mightget you out of trouble

I meant for that ladder thing you posted, but since it requires gas I take it Phase 2?

[Gandariel]

No, it takes no gas. It costs 150 minerals

[Lheticus]

No, it takes no gas. It costs 150 minerals

Yeah, realized that later, should have deleted that post. I'm DEFINITELY stuck on Step 2-2.5 now...should I not be playing against the AI on Hard at that step? Also, could you come on to watch a replay to maybe offer insight on what I'm doing wrong with my builds?

[Gandariel]

Stay on step 2 then. (Or even 1.5)

Also, how many bases do you take in a regular game?

A general pointer is: expand early. Make a push.
If unsuccessful, expand again, then push again

Play until you beat with no trouble the Hard AI, then move on to Unranked play

@replay: i don't have access to a pc so I can't help you. Maybe someone else will be happy to.

[Lheticus]

Stay on step 2 then. (Or even 1.5)

Also, how many bases do you take in a regular game?

A general pointer is: expand early. Make a push.
If unsuccessful, expand again, then push again

Play until you beat with no trouble the Hard AI, then move on to Unranked play

@replay: i don't have access to a pc so I can't help you. Maybe someone else will be happy to.

Expand EARLY?! I can barely handle expanding at all! Like...right around 30 supply used I'm either struggling to keep up with the mins, gas, or both coming in or I've already LOST as was the case the last several times the AI was Protoss and I got pwned up the butt by like JUST FOUR GUYS! It's like...I have so much crap to do I can't bloody decide on the order to do it and I wind up just doing whatever and derping out!

[Ionbound]

Welcome to Protoss, my friend. They will kill you often and easily. As for expanding, you usually want to go around 17-20ish as Terran, as I recall. And, of course, only if you can defend the actual expansion.

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm going to be a horrible person and suggest you get one of these folks to play with you. AI are good practice to learn the basics, but nothings better than an actual person to play against. Or with, 2v2 same race is a great way to observe starts, since you can just imitate them. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Replay critique is good too. Less fun though.

[Lheticus]

I'm going to be a horrible person and suggest you get one of these folks to play with you. AI are good practice to learn the basics, but nothings better than an actual person to play against. Or with, 2v2 same race is a great way to observe starts, since you can just imitate them. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Replay critique is good too. Less fun though.

Well, I would, especially FireDaemon as he seems the least uberleet of those from this thread I've seen play, but nobody's on...they're all indisposed for one reason or another right now.

[Gandariel]

Expand EARLY?! I can barely handle expanding at all! Like...right around 30 supply used I'm either struggling to keep up with the mins, gas, or both coming in or I've already LOST as was the case the last several times the AI was Protoss and I got pwned up the butt by like JUST FOUR GUYS! It's like...I have so much crap to do I can't bloody decide on the order to do it and I wind up just doing whatever and derping out!

That just means youre not ready to go to level 2. Back to level 1.5!!!

[Lheticus]

That just means youre not ready to go to level 2. Back to level 1.5!!!

No...no, I don't really think so. Really the problem is is that I'm really not able to make a plan whatsoever. At 1 and 1.5, there really isn't much capacity for a plan other than Spam Spam Spam Spam Monty Python style. I don't think going backwards from the first point where some semblance of proper planning is possible to the point where it isn't is going to help me get back to where I can plan things.

[Gandariel]

Did you beat without trouble the Hard AI on step 1.5? While taking at least one expansion? If so, ok. Otherwise, I suggest you do it. It will teach you when to expand.

Anyways, pointers.
Barracks, then gas, then barracks number two.
Build 5 marines, then build a reactor and a Tech lab.
Send one of your marines to the middle of the map (possibly at a watchtower) so you see if enemies are coming.
If enemies come build a bunker and pump units as fast as you can.
Have the tech lab research any of the upgrades. I recommend Combat shield first.
As soon as the add ons finish have the barracks start producing marine marauder.when you have a decent force attack the enemy. Just a-move to the enemy's base.
While you do that, start your second base and keep producing units.
Then, when you have the money add a third barracks ( with add on of your choice)
Get your base running, add barracks if you have too much money,spam units and attack for the win.
If the game drags on, get a third base.

Remember to research the upgrades and learn to use stim. Just, before the battle start select everything and press t just once.

Scan the enemy every so often.

I don't think you need more than one geyser for this thing. If you need more gas, get more.

Th is is a really rrally random build i just threw togethet and it's probably wrong in many points, but it's better than not having a build at all.

[The_Jackal]

Expand EARLY?! I can barely handle expanding at all! Like...right around 30 supply used I'm either struggling to keep up with the mins, gas, or both coming in or I've already LOST as was the case the last several times the AI was Protoss and I got pwned up the butt by like JUST FOUR GUYS! It's like...I have so much crap to do I can't bloody decide on the order to do it and I wind up just doing whatever and derping out!

Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epMo2fLDU1Q).

Then this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUohpQKVf_A).

Those two videos cover the critical fundamentals of RTS play, for SCII in particular. The importance of Macro and how to manage the user interface. If you practice enough to nail, and I mean NAIL those fundamentals, you will be able to make it to gold league without problems. Now that's easy to say but NOT easy to do, and the only way there is to practice.

There's TONS of Day9 content out there, and I'd heartily recommend all of it, but those two videos are probably the most important. For the full Newbie Tuesday roster, go here (http://day9.tv/archives/?q=%22Newbie%20Tuesday%22).

Other have got it right: the AI won't prepare you for competitive players, but it's a safe environment to practice those fundamentals. Play vs the Hard AI til you can crush it casually. Each time, watch your repay and look for three things: 1) capped population 2) idle command center 3) high unspent resources. Make a note of what's happening, and in particular when in your sequence it's happening. What time did you forget to queue that SCV? What else were you building? What supply were you at? With enough practice, you'll get a metronome in your head that tells you it's time to hit the hotkey for your command centers, and hit 's'. (Hint: it's about once every 12 seconds).

Then you're ready to start dipping your toe in the multiplayer pool. You WILL lose. But you won't lose because you're so lost that you're at 30 population when your opponent has a maxed army.

[thracian]

Starcraft 2 should offer a real-time coaching mode. Stuff like pinging areas to watch out for, highlighting idle buildings, etc. I might actually start play Starcraft again if that existed, if only so I could get good enough again to give tips.

I never really played PvP in Starcraft too much (virtually none in HotS), but back in like Season 2 or 3 of WoL I managed to hit Plat doing nothing but spamming Marines every game. Even against Colossi, High Templar, Archons, w/e I was throwing out 60+ marines per production cycle. If someone backed off after a fight, I was remaxed in less than a minute and a half. I won by mashing the A key. Make marines, attack-move. That was it.

[Winthur]

I never really played PvP in Starcraft too much (virtually none in HotS), but back in like Season 2 or 3 of WoL I managed to hit Plat doing nothing but spamming Marines every game

PvP
Player vs Player
Protoss vs Protoss

. . .

:smallsigh:

[thracian]

Fine, I almost exclusively played the campaign :P

[Ionbound]

I will say this: Day9 is a hero. If you really want to learn, Newbie Tuesdays and the rest of his dailies are probably one of the best archives to do it with.

[Legoshrimp]

I will say this: Day9 is a hero. If you really want to learn, Newbie Tuesdays and the rest of his dailies are probably one of the best archives to do it with.

And possibly more importantly, he is also really entertaining!

[Ionbound]

Trumpets. Trumpets everywhere.

[GloatingSwine]

Expand EARLY?! I can barely handle expanding at all! Like...right around 30 supply used I'm either struggling to keep up with the mins, gas, or both coming in or I've already LOST as was the case the last several times the AI was Protoss and I got pwned up the butt by like JUST FOUR GUYS! It's like...I have so much crap to do I can't bloody decide on the order to do it and I wind up just doing whatever and derping out!

As early as you can, yes.

Also: General rule, if you just fought the enemy army and won, take an expansion.

If you just broke his army he can't stop you taking another base, and that means that you'll have even more stuff for the next fight.

When you're ahead, get more ahead.

[Malek]

Well as part of me finally being able to play modern(ish) games after getting my first hardware upgrade in several years I found myself replaying Wings of Liberty and then moving on to Heart of the Swarm, and found myself enjoying the campaign. Must be a theme with me because I like Diablo 3 too despite the terrible amounts of bile and hate on blizzard forums... but I digress. Actually I decided to make this post to share something I run into today that some might not know off. Namely:

Starcraft: Mass Recall (http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/starcraft-mass-recall/). A remake of the Starcraft 1 and Brood War campaign in SC2 engine. From what I read it supposedly is as faithful to the originals as possible so it might be of interest to some of you. enjoy.

[GloatingSwine]

IIRC I played that when they just had the terran campaign done a few years ago.

Back then it wasn't wholly faithful, you can get Brood War units in the SC1 maps, for instance, but it was pretty good all told.

Update: Yeah, it's the one I remember. It's p. convenient getting medics in the SC1 campaign for instance.

And it does serve to remind me just how good the Wings of Liberty campaign is.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, that remake thing was cool. I didn't really do it because im more of a competitive player and I'd rather just ladder, but I heard it was cool.

[Lheticus]

Ugh, had to dig this out from five feet under...

Anyways, anyone want to pwn me? I am legitimately so bored right now that even the worst SC2 thrashing of my life would be a positive experience by comparison.

[Lheticus]

To any it may concern:

I just downloaded HotS and my Battle.net is LheticusSeer #1320. I'm mystified as to how there wasn't even a download time once I'd made the purchase...

[GloatingSwine]

To any it may concern:

I just downloaded HotS and my Battle.net is LheticusSeer #1320. I'm mystified as to how there wasn't even a download time once I'd made the purchase...

All the data is actually included in the game, so you're always up to date no matter whether you've bought the latest version key or not (most of it bar the cutscenes have to be anyway, for compatibility with the Arcade).

[Lheticus]

All the data is actually included in the game, so you're always up to date no matter whether you've bought the latest version key or not (most of it bar the cutscenes have to be anyway, for compatibility with the Arcade).

So...wait. What if I'd bought Wings of Liberty before HotS was a thing?

[GloatingSwine]

Then at HotS launch or slightly before it you would have had a monster of a patch to download. (several monsters, in fact, SC2 patches have not always been small affairs.)

[Artanis]

a monster of a patch to download.
A Patchalisk, if you will.

[thracian]

For a few days after HotS release, you could play the campaign on a WoL install as long as you had a HotS save file to open. There were a few save files floating around from the start of the campaign, so you could play through the whole thing (assuming you did it quickly, Blizzard patched it pretty quick).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I will say on the HotS campaign, there really wasn't much in the way of choice as to where you went, once you had options. The ice world had Roaches and Hydras. Roach + Hydra = win. From there, your choice is either banelings + aberrations or Muta + Broodie. Now then, I generally don't bother with banelings (other than what Kerrigan can summon), and Aberrations just plain suck. Whereas Mutas are a flexible air unit and broodlords are crack, particularly when you get the Deep Tunnel upgrade.

Currently switching up the order to see if there are any hidden easter eggs for choosing a different path, but signs are pointing to 'no'.

[Gandariel]

The Hots campaign was really nice IMO.

The evolutions were fun, cut scenes were, as always, Blizzard-worthy and overall everything was good and enjoyable.


@shneekey : the best easter egg is in the first mission!
Kerrigan! You're attacking with.... drones?

[Lheticus]

Okay, this is just embarassing. Not only did I not even realize the "matchmaking" option had other options besides playing human opponents, I was feeling almost okay with myself for keeping up with resources longer than usual...then realized the Level 1 Tutorial fight played at NORMAL speed. X_X

EDIT: Wait, that applies to how long it takes stuff to build...um, would that make it easier, or actually HARDER to keep up? O_O

Edit Deux: I'm now on the 2nd level tutorial, and, um...I can't seem to reconcile the time out of the starting gate. There's always a lag either after I reach 11 supply used and have to wait for my depot to finish or in mineral gathering and/or flat out time to start the next SCV after I execute the command to build the depot. Is this just SUPPOSED to happen?

[Gandariel]

Yeah; first tutorial is at unbearably slow speed.

The real speed of the game is Faster (third tutorial)

The speed applies to everything. Really everything, it just makes stuff easier (and annoying if you're used to the regular speed.)

Also, don't worry if you have a few seconds where you're waiting for the first depto to complete. It's perfectly normal, and most importantly; as long as it's just a few seconds it won't matter.

Pros don't have it, because they hyper optimise everything. I usually have to wait a couple seconds too.

So in short, if it's only a few seconds, don't worry.

[Lheticus]

Yeah; first tutorial is at unbearably slow speed.

The real speed of the game is Faster (third tutorial)

The speed applies to everything. Really everything, it just makes stuff easier (and annoying if you're used to the regular speed.)

Also, don't worry if you have a few seconds where you're waiting for the first depto to complete. It's perfectly normal, and most importantly; as long as it's just a few seconds it won't matter.

Pros don't have it, because they hyper optimise everything. I usually have to wait a couple seconds too.

So in short, if it's only a few seconds, don't worry.

Pros don't have "it"? You mean the delay? Well...I don't see how that's possible! If I try to keep the flow of SCVs constant and put up the depot in time from the instant the game starts...it just flat out doesn't work. There's always that timing discrepancy. Then again, this IS just on "fast" speed, so...

[Gandariel]

Pros don't have "it"? You mean the delay? Well...I don't see how that's possible! If I try to keep the flow of SCVs constant and put up the depot in time from the instant the game starts...it just flat out doesn't work. There's always that timing discrepancy. Then again, this IS just on "fast" speed, so...

Well, that is indeed possible.
Really, i could explain how, but it's something so minor and unimportant that you shouldn't really care.
Just accept that you'll have a couple seconds of delay and move on, i'm sure you will have bigger concerns during the game :)

[Lheticus]

All right, I've cleared the 2nd tutorial level. I did pretty okay, more okay than the 1st level I'd say, except...

I just can't seem to get my APM anywhere near the AI's. It had nearly 50, I had less than 30. I'd like some context as to if 27-28 APM is a bad thing.

[Gandariel]

yes, 30 APM is a bit low.

My usual APM is around 60 to 80.

BUT! nobody cares!

Really, as long as you're doing fine with army, resources, and everything, APM means absolutely nothing

And really, stop caring about small little details like these. As long as you're overall doing fine (and improving), you're good!

[Lheticus]

yes, 30 APM is a bit low.

My usual APM is around 60 to 80.

BUT! nobody cares!

Really, as long as you're doing fine with army, resources, and everything, APM means absolutely nothing

I think my APM might be a bit skewed by something I do, btw--when it comes time to launch an attack, I tend to drop everything else and just attack and not continue production, creating buildings, etc.

Incidental question--I haven't managed to check yet, did they change Armory building from WoL? In that, you had to build the Engineering Bay first, but the level 2 tutorial had a "bonus objective" of building a Engineering Bay OR Armory.

[Destro_Yersul]

All right, I've cleared the 2nd tutorial level. I did pretty okay, more okay than the 1st level I'd say, except...

I just can't seem to get my APM anywhere near the AI's. It had nearly 50, I had less than 30. I'd like some context as to if 27-28 APM is a bad thing.

Pro Starcraft players average about 300 APM, I believe. In Bronze league you're lucky to see 40.

[Gandariel]

yeah, that's a mistake most newbies do.

For now at least, just send your army to attack and STOP watching it.
really, what micro you can do is really not important at this point, you're better off sending the attack, going back to your production, and after some time checking if you've won or lost.

if you do have Stimpack, activate it when you attack.

But really, all you have to do is:

A
Left click on the ground beyond the enemy units
T (if you have Stimpack)
go back to your base

EDIT: Also, i trust you've already seen the coolest opening animation Ev4R!!1!!11!ONE1!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVbeoSPqRs4)

[Ionbound]

Yeah, for the record, APM means literally nothing. It's less important to have a high APM than to do everything you need to do. Since players want to do everything, and faster than their opponent, that usually translates to a high APM, but don't get too hung up on it.

[Lheticus]

Yeah, for the record, APM means literally nothing. It's less important to have a high APM than to do everything you need to do. Since players want to do everything, and faster than their opponent, that usually translates to a high APM, but don't get too hung up on it.

Hmm...NEED to do. I think that accounts for why I got a paltry 23 in the level 3 tutorial. Am I correct in assuming that a significant chunk of APM in the mid or even late game is building more and more structures? That...I REALLY wasn't doing. I had 2 Barracks and 1 factory, 1 engineering bay, 1 armory, and other than that I basically built nothing but supply. It was enough to win, but I just wasn't expanding beyond that bare minimum.

[Anarion]

Hmm...NEED to do. I think that accounts for why I got a paltry 23 in the level 3 tutorial. Am I correct in assuming that a significant chunk of APM in the mid or even late game is building more and more structures? That...I REALLY wasn't doing. I had 2 Barracks and 1 factory, 1 engineering bay, 1 armory, and other than that I basically built nothing but supply. It was enough to win, but I just wasn't expanding beyond that bare minimum.

Yes, you're correct. A lategame Starcraft II powerhouse is characterized not only by its ability to field powerful units, but also replace those units near instantly if they go down. It's not the 200 supply army that wins the game, it's the 200 supply army that comes after the first 200 supply army.

Edit: By the by, 300 APM is nowhere near close to 300 ingame decisions made per minute. That would be impossible. What a lot of pros do is they cycle constantly through their hotkeys. Let's say you keykind Nexus on 3, warpgates on 4, Robotics bay on 5. Here's an APM breakdown over a few seconds as an example.

press 3: 1 action
start probe: 1 action
press 4: 1 action
summon warpgate stuff: Let's say ~3 actions
press 5: 1 action
start observer: 1 action
check every building you just looked at: 3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5: 21 actions
probe finishes: start next probe: 1 action

As you get better, you can do the building cycle thing while ALSO skimming the minimap, microing a unit (say a scout or a couple early harassers), or maneuvering a squad. People do all that to keep everything in mindspace. You might think "hey I pressed P, I know about when it will finish, I don't need to constantly press 3 to check my Nexus." But you're wrong. If your mental timing is off by 1 second and your nexus is idle by 1 second between each probe you build, you'll lose the game by a lot at higher levels of play. Imperfect resource production slows down one's game by a great deal and is the difference between having your second base up and running with defenses by the time an attack comes vs. just getting it going only to have the entire investment lost.

[Gandariel]

Hmm...NEED to do. I think that accounts for why I got a paltry 23 in the level 3 tutorial. Am I correct in assuming that a significant chunk of APM in the mid or even late game is building more and more structures? That...I REALLY wasn't doing. I had 2 Barracks and 1 factory, 1 engineering bay, 1 armory, and other than that I basically built nothing but supply. It was enough to win, but I just wasn't expanding beyond that bare minimum.

Yes and no.

one mining base can only support a certain amount of production (4 barracks, i think. or 3 plus one factory).
By this i mean, one base earns you XXX minerals and gas per minute, barracks working nonstop cost you YY minerals and gas per minute.

So, on ONE base, yes, there's no point in building more than 3-4 barracks.

BUT.
If you want to improve, you need to expand, and have more than one base. So, since you'll be having 2-3 working bases, you'll have to make more buildings to use that money you're earning

[Lheticus]

Yes and no.

one mining base can only support a certain amount of production (4 barracks, i think. or 3 plus one factory).
By this i mean, one base earns you XXX minerals and gas per minute, barracks working nonstop cost you YY minerals and gas per minute.

So, on ONE base, yes, there's no point in building more than 3-4 barracks.

BUT.
If you want to improve, you need to expand, and have more than one base. So, since you'll be having 2-3 working bases, you'll have to make more buildings to use that money you're earning

I had 2 bases.

[Gandariel]

And i suppose your money began skyrocketing after a while?

If you have too much money, you need to build more buildings. Pretty simple.

Also, reminder: every base must have 16 workers on minerals and 3 on each gas

[Anarion]

And i suppose your money began skyrocketing after a while?

If you have too much money, you need to build more buildings. Pretty simple.

Also, reminder: every base must have 16 workers on minerals and 3 on each gas

Though stopping at 16 on minerals at your first base is usually a terrible idea. Most of the time, building out to a second base is done fairly early on in the game (unless you're planning a rush strategy), so it pays to constantly build workers so that as soon as base 2 is done, you can transfer a whole bunch of your workers over to it and see an immediate boost in income.

[Gandariel]

Very true.

First base should be churning out SCVs for a LONG time

[Hiro Protagonest]

Pro Starcraft players average about 300 APM, I believe.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6d/6d1ecfca25698ef5392f73b2db1f0b71e0dfcbb1388dda0c24 54a4db0342bf72.jpg

:smalltongue:

[Anarion]

Flash image macro

:smalltongue:

Aaaah, a true classic.

[Gandariel]

img

LOL
Classic Flash

[Lheticus]

funny meme

:smalltongue:

What IS it with the look on his face?! XD

[Anarion]

What IS it with the look on his face?! XD

He's unimpressed.

Also, there are approximately a million of those things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/305559-unimpressed-flash-meme

[Artanis]

Yes, you're correct. A lategame Starcraft II powerhouse is characterized not only by its ability to field powerful units, but also replace those units near instantly if they go down. It's not the 200 supply army that wins the game, it's the 200 supply army that comes after the first 200 supply army.

Edit: By the by, 300 APM is nowhere near close to 300 ingame decisions made per minute. That would be impossible. What a lot of pros do is they cycle constantly through their hotkeys. Let's say you keykind Nexus on 3, warpgates on 4, Robotics bay on 5. Here's an APM breakdown over a few seconds as an example.

press 3: 1 action
start probe: 1 action
press 4: 1 action
summon warpgate stuff: Let's say ~3 actions
press 5: 1 action
start observer: 1 action
check every building you just looked at: 3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5,3,4,5: 21 actions
probe finishes: start next probe: 1 action

As you get better, you can do the building cycle thing while ALSO skimming the minimap, microing a unit (say a scout or a couple early harassers), or maneuvering a squad. People do all that to keep everything in mindspace. You might think "hey I pressed P, I know about when it will finish, I don't need to constantly press 3 to check my Nexus." But you're wrong. If your mental timing is off by 1 second and your nexus is idle by 1 second between each probe you build, you'll lose the game by a lot at higher levels of play. Imperfect resource production slows down one's game by a great deal and is the difference between having your second base up and running with defenses by the time an attack comes vs. just getting it going only to have the entire investment lost.
Another thing on top of this: you can queue up a bunch of units just by holding down the key. If I want to queue up thirty marines, I can hit the hotkey for my three Reactor-Barracks and then hold down the Marine hotkey for a couple seconds, and boom, thirty Marines start streaming in six at a time. I'd lay good odds that the pros never, EVER do that.

[Anarion]

Another thing on top of this: you can queue up a bunch of units just by holding down the key. If I want to queue up thirty marines, I can hit the hotkey for my three Reactor-Barracks and then hold down the Marine hotkey for a couple seconds, and boom, thirty Marines start streaming in six at a time. I'd lay good odds that the pros never, EVER do that.

They do, but only late game when they have so much cash banked that it's worthwhile to dump it into queued units so you can focus on careful micro with numerous unit types. Mostly, you're right that it's a bad idea. Why spend 50 minerals on a marine that's not building when you could build an scv instead? Or if you've got every structure working, and queue nothing, you can use the banked cash to build new production instead.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, queuing up a lot of stuff is not ideal (but then again not so terrible either)

Luckily as a Protoss I don't have that problem ( warp gates work differently and the other stuff is so expensive I never have the money to queue up 3 colossi or something )

One of the most important things to learn is quick response: do I have too much money? Build units! All production is already building? Make more production!

Also, yesterday I played a cool Arcade map on the US servers called 1v1obs (or something similar)

Basically, any amount of players enter, two players at a time do 1v1 while the others observe. We could do that sometime!

When I played it yesterday I did pretty well, winning all 3 my games.
One was PvP blink all in (I defended with immortals)
The second, pvp again, was early warp prism attacks, which I felt I barely defended, but I actually defended really well since I managed to stabilise and the opponent had never expanded.
Third game was tvp.
I attacked early with reasonable success and expanded.
Went for chargelot /storm/archon (favourite composition against T ) against his bio+tank and stormed him to death, while killing his attempts of drops with Feedback.
In the end he rage quitted (stupid noob race!), which was the cherry on top of the cake.

[Anarion]

First five minutes of any game, maybe even first ten minutes should be entirely rote. Starcraft is a bit like chess openings. There is a branching tree for whether you're being rushed or in response to certain timing attacks, but there should be almost no quick thinking required until you hit midgame.

[Gandariel]

That's only assuming you're perfect at scouting. There are a LOT of possible openings, for each race. And many openings look the same.
I'll talk about protoss because that's the race I play.

You (somehow) scout a fast robo.
Cool, it could be EVERYTHING.
2base sentry-immortal allin, warp prism harass, fast colossus? Even "safety observers + immortals" is actually pretty common

That gets even more cheeky when you don't scout, or don't see anything particular.


What i do agree on is that PvP early game is like Rock Paper Scissor (Robo>Twilight>Stargate>Robo)

[Anarion]

That's only assuming you're perfect at scouting. There are a LOT of possible openings, for each race. And many openings look the same.
I'll talk about protoss because that's the race I play.

You (somehow) scout a fast robo.
Cool, it could be EVERYTHING.
2base sentry-immortal allin, warp prism harass, fast colossus? Even "safety observers + immortals" is actually pretty common

That gets even more cheeky when you don't scout, or don't see anything particular.


What i do agree on is that PvP early game is like Rock Paper Scissor (Robo>Twilight>Stargate>Robo)

Sure, multiple strategies could go various directions, and by the time they pick one you have to micro and work on the fly. But what you should have down is when your first scouting probe gets there and you see certain things. Mine is outdated because I haven't played Heart of the Swarm ladder (switched to LoL a couple years ago), but when I used to play PvZ fast expansion it was
a) The zerg has an early gas: must be prepared for ling speed
b) zerg has two gas: banelings
c) zerg has no gas: he's expanding, check for a third expo, take my expo aggressively, either go long and prep for my own third or make a timing attack.

All of those builds had their first 5 minutes absolutely standardized (since you had to be prepared for the ling rush) and the next 5 minutes also completely standardized once you had certain basic info.

Builds definitely have a branching tree and there isn't perfect information, but the opening up to about the 40-50 food mark should not require thinking unless the opponent does something wildly off like trying to cannon rush you or proxy a barracks.

edit: By standardized, I mean exact build order, unit timings, and building placement. There's an optimal way to survive a zergling rush on most maps and you can peg what you should be building when based on how much food you have. Again, I compare it to chess openings. If you do pawn to e4 as white, you don't have to think about what your next three moves should be, there are certain things you do based on which moves the opponent makes and then about 10 moves into it you have to assess the board and choose what kind of attacks you want to make.

[Gandariel]

I guess. The highest I ever went was high plat, and yeah, usually openings are a bit standardized.

Still, I like the fact that you always CAN see something new.
There's always that proxy hatch in your natural, tempest rush or nuclear friggin ' missile that throws you off your game.

[Gandariel]

Gonna drop this here, just in case you haven't seen these ZomGZamazing games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNyV7XoCOSE)