How would you make potions worth consideration? [3.5]

[aleucard]

It's a pretty safe assumption that Potions in 3.5 are crap. My question about them comes in 2 forms;

1) What existing options for Potions (not the CWI alternate option of crafting rocks that do the same thing with no spell level limit, the ones that need the Brew Potion feat) make them worthwhile? Also, while Quick Potion would count, I'd rather not rehash it here; no need to mention that one.

2) What modifications would you make to Potions (any part, from crafting to use) to make them worth using?

I'm interested in what you guys think on this.

[qwertyu63]

It's a pretty safe assumption that Potions in 3.5 are crap. My question about them comes in 2 forms;

1) What existing options for Potions (not the CWI alternate option of crafting rocks that do the same thing with no spell level limit, the ones that need the Brew Potion feat) make them worthwhile? Also, while Quick Potion would count, I'd rather not rehash it here; no need to mention that one.

2) What modifications would you make to Potions (any part, from crafting to use) to make them worth using?

I'm interested in what you guys think on this.

I have a two part plan to buff them:

1: Reduce the base price to spell level × its caster level × 25 gp
2: Drinking a potion does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Done.

[Slipperychicken]

You could use that beer hat from Dragon Magazine which lets you drink them as a free action.

You could also decide to make potions a lot cheaper.

[Harrow]

I'm sure there's some action economy abuse to be had. Enlarge Person, for example, normally takes 1 round to cast, but it's just a standard action to drink a potion. There are other considerations of course, like the move action to draw a potion or whether you're using Delay Potion or an item to remove that, but even a full round action is better than 1 round casting time, especially if the barbarian is using up an action instead of the wizard.

Are there any other spells with long casting times that could be abused by being put in to potions?


As far as homebrew, I would cut the price in half, to the same as scrolls. I figure the restrictions (can cast the spell or has UMD vs no personal spells and no spells above 3rd level) are about even, so the prices should be too.

[ace rooster]

It's a pretty safe assumption that Potions in 3.5 are crap. My question about them comes in 2 forms;

1) What existing options for Potions (not the CWI alternate option of crafting rocks that do the same thing with no spell level limit, the ones that need the Brew Potion feat) make them worthwhile? Also, while Quick Potion would count, I'd rather not rehash it here; no need to mention that one.

2) What modifications would you make to Potions (any part, from crafting to use) to make them worth using?

I'm interested in what you guys think on this.

I think your premise is a little off. Potions of CLW and the like are pretty useless, as healing is done much better by a wand out of combat. There are some real gems of spells that when you need, you really need and cannot wait for a caster to use a scroll (if they can at all). This is particularly true at low levels. Potions lighten the action load on the casters.

Enlarge person/bulls strength: The fight has started and the wizard is busy. There are times when the fighter cannot charge immediately anyway. Solid low level buffs.

Pass without trace: Can be a lifesaver, and not every party has a druid.

Greater magic fang: expensive, but very useful if you have a dinosaur and are fighting DR/magic.

Water breathing: You might see this one coming.

lesser restoration: fatigue is really annoying, particularly if you need to run away. Or if you have been enfeebled, or stupiditied, or ability damaged. Scrolls need abilities to be used.

Remove blindness: The cleric has been blinded, get out the scroll...um oh.

delay poison: There are quite a few spells that immunity to poison helps with. The fighter can wander through a cloudkill with impunity for example. This potion means he does not have to wait for the cleric.

invisability: I'm leaving now.

blur: I'm hiding now.

Flame arrow: Expensive, but you can divide up the arrows and they last 50 mins. Between 10 it works out at 75gp for 5 arrows that do d6 extra damage. Solid for a group of level 3 kobold archers.

Accuracy: This one is a real gem. 50gp, for the next 10mins your heavy crossbow has a range inc of 240ft. Does the (any) party have a warmage? if not then scroll is not an option. Like flame arrow it can be split up, so the 5 level 1 kobolds can easily afford it.

Note that some of these are oils, and as such cannot be made into glyphs (unless you can find a way for a pile of arrows to set off a trap).

I can see why they limited potions, as potions of freedom of movement and true seeing would cheapen the spells somewhat, as well as being an easy way out of many situations. Unfortunately what they actually did was make potions irrelavent to mid to high level play. Making potions of higher level spells is a definate option for a houserule, maybe assuming that casters can brew the first 3 levels for free, then need the feat after that. Another option I have looked into is allowing brew potion to brew injury potions, that are used as poisons. They are not hugely powerful, but fit in a low op setting nicely.

The other thing to consider is that casters are not hugely common in the setting (about 1 in 20). Adventuring parties have a disproportionate number of them compared to the general population, so even if scrolls and wands are the default option for adventurers they would not be for everyone else. As such you would find them in tresure often.

[Baroknik]

The Master Brewer class is actually potentially sweet as it lets you brew up to 9ths.
Why is this cool? Because it allows people to receive "Self" only spells

Edit: 2 fun examples of potions
1) Time Stop
2) Shapechange

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are various things you could do, or a combination of them:

1. Same price as scrolls. Kinda limits the usefulness of scrolls then, but oh well.
2. Standard action to retrieve it AND drink it, if it is not stowed away anywhere. None of this provokes AoO.
3. Give everyone the Delay Potion feat for free. It just becomes how they work.
4. Increase the spell levels you can make potions out of.

Potions are "useful" in Pathfinder solely because of the Alchemist class being potion-based, and specifically because they get a 2nd level "spell" (extract...same thing) called Alchemical Allocation to benefit from a potion w/o expending it. And then eventually an optional class feature to have a a potion in effect on them get switched to duration: Permanent (until dispelled or they designate a new potion effect). No one else uses them still, but at least one class does.

[sideswipe]

potions are what the mundanes carry to get the casters out of tight spots, some are mentioned above. a CLW potion will most likely rise that cleric who is bleeding out, allowing escape.

potions are just to get the casters online again.

[Dalebert]

The Master Brewer class is actually potentially sweet as it lets you brew up to 9ths.
Why is this cool? Because it allows people to receive "Self" only spells

Potions can't normally be made of "self" only spells. Does that class also get an exception to that?

[thethird]

Potions can't normally be made of "self" only spells. Does that class also get an exception to that?

Assuming he means the master alchemist, no, it does not.

My favorite potion using build is:

Artificer 5 / Alchemist Savant 5 (MoE) / Master Alchemist 10 (MoF) (Careful, master alchemist doesn't allow Artificer Entry as written)

Using a Gremma's Cauldron (EtU) with an artificer / unbound scroll (DrMrk) cohort.

This allows you to create ludicrously cheap potions of spells 1 to 9.

[Hecuba]

Potions can't normally be made of "self" only spells. Does that class also get an exception to that?

No, it does not. You need Spellguard of Silverymoon to accomplish that, and even then you have to meet that class' s definition of defensive (though technically, adding, magic of the land allows most spells to meet that definition when you are in a natural setting).

In regards to the original question, potions have 4 chief limitations:

Level cap
Increased action economy cost relative to other items
Increased gp cost relative to other items
They cannot be used for direct attack.


They have only advantage they have is the lack of need for a spell list or umd check, and that is only in comparison to scrolls or wands.

Removing any 2 of the noted restrictions should give them, at minimum, significant niche value.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They have only advantage they have is the lack of need for a spell list or umd check, and that is only in comparison to scrolls or wands.

It's extremely niche and situational, but there is another advantage... The drinker is always considered to be the caster, for the purposes of the potion's spell effect. Even if someone else is feeding the potion to him. The main area this matters is with Spell Resistance, since the creature's own cast spells automatically bypass it. It's not that useful even if you have people with SR, it's only an advantage when someone else is using the potion on you (using wands and scrolls on yourself bypasses your own SR just as easily as potion does). About the only time that'd happen is say...when you're incapacitated (negative hp, paralyzed, etc...) and someone else feeds you the appropriate healing potion. Still, if you do have SR....could save your life some day.

EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm


The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

.................................................. ...................

A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature’s throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.

[Coidzor]

2) What modifications would you make to Potions (any part, from crafting to use) to make them worth using?

Reduce the action cost to retrieve and use potions. Perhaps it's just a move action to draw them and one can drink them as part of the move, or it's a swift or free action to drink a potion(potions!?) already in one's hand(s).

Maybe drinking doesn't provoke but getting them out does? Maybe there's some way to avoid eating an AoO when using a potion but that it's not a guaranteed/binary thing?

I'd probably make them cost less or add in some economy of scale for large batches that effectively does this, as well. Especially healing potions. Cure X potions might be fine as 1/5th the cost, IIRC?

Might reduce the cost of other potions by half or so, I don't believe they quite warrant the price that they do, but I don't think they're quite as overpriced as the Cure X Wounds potions.

I've seen Cure X potions always count as having either a 5 or average rolls(so 5, 4, 5, 4 IIRC) on the d8s and Cure X potions are auto-maximized as houserules as well.

Maybe reduce the cost per CL as well?

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Potion Belt (FRCS) costs 1gp and lets you draw a potion as a free action 1/round. So action economy is really not much of a problem compared to wands or scrolls.
It's worth it using utility potions on non-casters, but that's probably it. Unless you specialize in brewing cheap high-level potions, at least.

If we're houseruling i'd probably reduce the price to be equal to scrolls - they each have their own advantages and disadvantages and don't need the price difference to balance them imo - and otherwise leave them as-is.
I'd certainly leave in AoO's. If you try drinking a potion in melee you deserve getting a sword to the face. There is already a way to avoid that - that's what 5ft steps are for.
'

[oxybe]

potions generally suffer from the Curse of the Consumable Item, in that gold spent on a potion is gold not spent on a magic weapon or stat boost which are consistently more useful.

Now, I technically have a Tumblr where I'm supposed to store ideas I have, but haven't really put anything there since, like, last year. I did talk about consumables though (http://oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com/post/45902193083/on-consumeable-items-in-tabletop-games).

I would say keep the limits on what spells can become a potion, increase the price a bit but make each potion a 1/day item (the magic is in the vial itself, it turns whatever liquid is in it into a potion you can drink) or 1-use-until-i-get-to-my-alchemy-lab-or-1-day,-whichever-is-longest (the price you paid is a general "upkeep" cost, you bought the basic things needed to constantly keep a drink of this one potion on you, you just need to get to a place where you can collect the ingredients/brew it). As for the caster level/effect issue, I would say either have a potion that's drunk use the base caster level to create it or half your character level, whichever is highest.

[Jormengand]

I'm still a fan of slipping potions of offensive spells into people's drinks.

[ace rooster]

potions generally suffer from the Curse of the Consumable Item, in that gold spent on a potion is gold not spent on a magic weapon or stat boost which are consistently more useful.

Now, I technically have a Tumblr where I'm supposed to store ideas I have, but haven't really put anything there since, like, last year. I did talk about consumables though (http://oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com/post/45902193083/on-consumeable-items-in-tabletop-games).

I would say keep the limits on what spells can become a potion, increase the price a bit but make each potion a 1/day item (the magic is in the vial itself, it turns whatever liquid is in it into a potion you can drink) or 1-use-until-i-get-to-my-alchemy-lab-or-1-day,-whichever-is-longest (the price you paid is a general "upkeep" cost, you bought the basic things needed to constantly keep a drink of this one potion on you, you just need to get to a place where you can collect the ingredients/brew it). As for the caster level/effect issue, I would say either have a potion that's drunk use the base caster level to create it or half your character level, whichever is highest.

You are missing the magic of WBL. Consuming resources reduces your wealth, but the DM is expected to increase rewards to compensate. In the long term there should be no impact on your total wealth. :smallbiggrin: Even if the DM does not, the power boost from burning consumables and the risks that you can take relying on a consumable to get out of trouble (so it may not even be used) will increase returns considerably.

Consumables definately have a place in the game, assuming that players are decisive enough to use them (many players seem squemish, and worried that they will use them at the wrong time). They have the capacity to boost power substantially if used right, and are as useful as an at will item if they are only going to get used once.

[Blink Knight]

Healing: You don't.
Buffing: They already are.

Wands are more cost efficient but only if someone could use the wand and you need it often. For stuff that almost never comes up? Get 1-2 shots of it and then use as needed.

[oxybe]

You are missing the magic of WBL. Consuming resources reduces your wealth, but the DM is expected to increase rewards to compensate. In the long term there should be no impact on your total wealth. :smallbiggrin: Even if the DM does not, the power boost from burning consumables and the risks that you can take relying on a consumable to get out of trouble (so it may not even be used) will increase returns considerably.

Consumables definately have a place in the game, assuming that players are decisive enough to use them (many players seem squemish, and worried that they will use them at the wrong time). They have the capacity to boost power substantially if used right, and are as useful as an at will item if they are only going to get used once.

If i were to assume any given game has a perfect GM, I might be far less of a cynic but also a man who finds disappointment far more often.

Very few GMs i've met actually keep track of WBL on a character by character basis at best they eyeball our gear or overall effectiveness and might throw us a bone every so often if we get stomped, but WBL is not a thing I see many GMs adhere to.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If i were to assume any given game has a perfect GM, I might be far less of a cynic but also a man who finds disappointment far more often.

Very few GMs i've met actually keep track of WBL on a character by character basis at best they eyeball our gear or overall effectiveness and might throw us a bone every so often if we get stomped, but WBL is not a thing I see many GMs adhere to.

Consumables are still useful in your situation. If you can beat most encounters with the gear you have and use a oneshot item for when you have trouble you'll have a lot more money to spend on other things.
A persistent or reusable item is a lot more expensive, after all. It only makes sense to spend money on it when you need it all the time.

The classic example is stuff like Remove Curse, Cure Disease or Neutralize Poison. That's not something that comes up all the time. Spending the money for a Periapt of Health (7400gp) or a Periapt of Proof against Poison (27000gp) is a gigantic waste of money unless you have to chuck potions for those conditions all the time.
Unless you fight armies of lycanthropes getting a silver weapon with the same enhancements as your main weapon costs you a lot more than buying a few doses of Quicksilver.
The same applies to getting a weapon with Ghost Touch vs. buying some Ghostblight.

Another point in favor of consumables is that you can get a significant boost for one encounter a lot earlier than you could get the same boost as a permanent item. That's useful for boss encounters and unforeseen encounters when you've already spent most of your daily resources.

You have to balance between permanent enhancements to maintain a solid level of capability and oneshot stuff for emergencies/uncommon situations. That doesn't make consumables useless.