The laws of the CG settlement??

[Starchild7309]

Ok so I have a LE Cleric of Bane who through quite a few very good rolls ended up as the mayor of a small settlement. The overwhelming alignment if the settlement is Good with the Law axis slightly tipped towards chaotic. He is about to be sworn in as Mayor and has requested a written copy of the laws of the village. It is less than 200 people, far far from anything else. (Island Colony set up a few years ago)

I am having writers block when it comes to these laws that a Good village would have in place. I mean its kind of out in the wild, but most of these people have come from major cities. There is a council that deals with the everyday issues and the voting for the creation and changing of laws, he is mainly in charge of settling major disputes and providing trade contracts and defense of this place. I know his plan is basically make the town into a beacon for Bane and his worshipers, which while interesting goes against everything the town is working towards in many ways.

So what laws would a colony far removed from civilization have? There are a few minor noble houses represented and tradesmen and pioneer types. There is a church to Umberlee also, which he has already tried to force the previous mayor to just give to him.

What can you guys come up with?

[VoxRationis]

It probably doesn't have a formal, codified set of laws. Many places didn't. If it's actually CG, there's probably a general "live and let live" philosophy shared amongst the populace. People don't do much until someone does something which drastically affects the community.

[Vorandril]

For that matter the closest judiciary duties a mayor would have would likely be acting as a 3rd party between disagreements in trade. With only 200 people it's not even a village. It's barely a sizable shipwreck.

[JusticeZero]

It is rare for a place with less than 1000 people to need written laws. Everyone knows who to ask for everything and nobody would care about the law book anyway. Written laws are for when you have people spread our more, and they want to standarsize between towns.

[sideswipe]

i second that he would settle disputes personally, in small areas that is what would happen. especially with people who don't like strict rules anyway, they will ignore them and just come to you regardless.

[Red Fel]

Chaotic doesn't mean automatically averse to laws. It means, however, that the people want rules that maximize their personal freedoms. As such, more likely, laws are settled by a "by the people" system, such as rotating tribunals of respected members of the community, rather than under a code-and-precedent approach.

My advice, very simply, is to respond that the settlement has no explicit laws, although it does have some generally-Good principles, and that any serious disputes are addressed by a hastily-assembled tribunal, who then looks at them on a case-by-case basis.

They elected a mayor. Clearly they have some appreciation for structure.

[Starchild7309]

Ok this all makes some pretty good sense, but in the sense of being proactive, I know what the player is planning. He has sent letters to every high ranking member in the Bane church that he knows and is attempting to turn the village into a stronghold for Bane. Now the colony is soooo far away from civilization that most if not all the clerics will only reply with a letter urging him forward towards converting its people and building a church. 200 people are barely worth the effort. I would hate to have to railroad, but this colony is central to the plot of the story. He has made quite a few enemies in the village though, so perhaps I could do something with that. They might not be strong level wise, but they do have lots of resources.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'll nth that a community that small doesn't really need laws, just a designated arbiter of disputes and a CG alignment would make this very likely.

If they did have rules, I'd liken them to groups like community thearter troupes who started out without written rules. Eventually something happened that angered either the majority or the leader of the group and wasn't resolved in the usual method because polite suggestion and shaming failed and the offender refused to accept fault or insisted that what they were doing was fine.

This forced either the leader or a group to make some rules. Generly the first of these rules are common sense unwritten rules nobody had never broken (or when it happened the community unanimously reacted without a rule), then came one or more rules addressing the unresolved situation, and finally those with more influence usually wrote some rules that were **** you's to people they didn't like or banned things that annoyed them that the community didn't feel particularly strongly about.

[JusticeZero]

Disputes like that don't generally result in written laws though.. Usually when a member of a community violates the norms repeatedly without changing, the community simply tries to drive them off, eventually escalating to assassination by means such as arson or poisoning.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, they wouldn't really have rules that aren't enforced by a representative of an external power (such as a baron or whatever). What nation is this a colony for? They probably have those laws.

Now. Because this is a CG community with clearly very nebulous ties to the founding nation, it's very likely that while they do have a book of laws, nobody resorts to it. So have the villagers give the cleric some dusty tome about land rights and inheritance rules, and then let him make some basic checks to realize nobody holds to these laws and nobody really cares.

Given that there is already a church, it's very likely that the faithful would turn to their priest for guidance (though a CE god would be unlikely to find many adherents in this village).

[Shieldbunny]

I agree with this community probably relying on personal arbitration. In answer to your OP though, I'd have some scribe type bring him a jumble of tomes containing all the previous rulings dating back to, oh say 9 months after the founding of the settlement. Seems like enough time for a lawful type to show up and say, "Guys, can we a least write some of this **** down!. :smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, the whole written law thing is for a Lawful sort of thing that nations do nowadays. Historically, it was all about metis and local knowledge. The towns all developed their own customs over time, and everyone knows them. Eventually, some bureaucrat comes by and has a snit fit when they can't even get a straight answer to "What town is this?"

[Red Fel]

I agree with this community probably relying on personal arbitration. In answer to your OP though, I'd have some scribe type bring him a jumble of tomes containing all the previous rulings dating back to, oh say 9 months after the founding of the settlement. Seems like enough time for a lawful type to show up and say, "Guys, can we a least write some of this **** down!. :smallbiggrin:

You can try, of course. But pick any law out of the book, and soon you'll be answering hypotheticals from the equivalent of a village full of four year-olds. "Ooh! Ooh! But what if he's been naughty?" "Yeah, or super-naughty?" "Or what if a dinosaur attacked?" "What if we couldn't drive him away, because he turned into a tree?" "Ooh, or what if he said mean things about my sister?"

CG villagers will be more inclined to trust a set of general principles, such as "killing is bad except when X," or "stealing is bad except when X," than they are to accept explicit, black-and-white rules and precedents. CGs will be looking for exceptions to the rules. ("This rule says I can't kill another villager. But what if he attacks me first?" "Well-" "Or what if he tries to take my cow?") And, finding no exceptions, they may eventually chafe under the idea of having a given freedom abolished in the absolute, instead of the conditional. ("Okay, so you can kill a person if they try to kill you first, or if they try to take your livelihood, or if they break in in the middle of the night, or... You know what? Let's just leave it up to a fact-based inquiry by the tribunal, hmm?")

Even if you write down some of these principles, they will be constantly revised, adapted, and reconsidered in light of new facts or evidence. It becomes almost an exercise in futility.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, a CG community is the best place to find out that democratic authority is derived from the people. The villagers elected the cleric because they thought he'd be good at running the place, but if he starts creating laws that they don't agree with, it'll be time for a new election.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Disputes like that don't generally result in written laws though.. Usually when a member of a community violates the norms repeatedly without changing, the community simply tries to drive them off, eventually escalating to assassination by means such as arson or poisoning.

Did you miss the part where I started my post by nthing that there didn't need to be rules? The bulk was detailing how it could have come about if there were written rules.

Yes, any issues that come up will most likely be dealt with one off by community concensus or a leader's decision, but that only has to not work once and there will be some written rules pretty much forever. That's just how groups tend to work.

[JusticeZero]

Yes, any issues that come up will most likely be dealt with one off by community concensus or a leader's decision, but that only has to not work once and there will be some written rules pretty much forever. That's just how groups tend to work.
I don't know; all the groups like that that i've seen - and i've worked with governing bodies at a similar scale to a village - if someone pulls out a stack of papers with written records of previous decisions made, the next question you can ask is "So who's the one who was diagnosed with OCD?" It's just not something that happens otherwise.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

if someone pulls out a stack of papers

What did I write that implied a stack of papers? That wasn't my intent. The process I described could eventually over many years result in a stack o' rules and fear of a creep towards that is a great pro Chaos Argument.

[TiaC]

Just make the place a commune. Law one: "Like, don't harsh anybody's vibes yo."

[Red Fel]

The one and only rule of the town, writ large and emblazoned 'pon a plaque: An' it harm none, do as ye will.

The second rule, hastily scribbled into a margin: You know, unless you really have to harm someone. Then we'll talk.

A third rule, squeezed in under the second: But seriously, don't overdo it.

A fourth rule, affixed via sticky note: Unless that jerk had it coming.

[huttj509]

The one and only rule of the town, writ large and emblazoned 'pon a plaque: An' it harm none, do as ye will.

The second rule, hastily scribbled into a margin: You know, unless you really have to harm someone. Then we'll talk.

A third rule, squeezed in under the second: But seriously, don't overdo it.

A fourth rule, affixed via sticky note: Unless that jerk had it coming.

The hard part is defining "harm."

[Segev]

The rules of most societies that would fall into an "NG" and "CG" type alignment tend to be - whether codified or not - something along the lines of, "Don't murder, don't steal, and don't con people. Don't start trouble, but feel free to finish it in the most expeditious manner possible. Helping others resolve trouble is almost always acceptable, and to be encouraged."

[Segev]

The hard part is defining "harm."

Not really; non-Lawful societies tend to run on the concept that, for certain things, everybody knows what they mean to a sufficient degree that you don't have to define it more precisely. They tend to be quite willing to judge on case-by-case bases. "You know it when you see it" is a typical attitude.

[Starchild7309]

Ok all good suggestions and I have a much better idea of the direction I want to go with this. As I said the PC has a great diplomacy and that's one of the reasons he was elected. Saving the entire town along with fellow PC's also helped and gave him a bonus to said checks to get elected.

Next question is that since he has made subtle threats against members of the council to get what he wants along with other members of the colony, what sort of penalty should he get when dealing with the council or members of the colony from now on? He has only threatened a few but word of mouth and such spreads. Also, being a murder hobo that travels a lot he is rarely there (not for colony business) and leaves much of the rulings to the council. I would think that also would negatively impact people's view of him?

If I am off base with this let me know, but if not what do you think is a fair penalty?

[XmonkTad]

Well intimate (which is what we call diplomacy by bullying) really only works when you are directly watching over them. He may find that his diplomacy checks are starting from hostile and that intimate works, but only for a bit.

Trying to take control of a chaotic village is probably like herding cats. They gave him the title, but it's really just a formality. They listen to the elders, doctors, and priests of the town, same as they always did. And above that, they do what they think is right, because they're generally good.

If he is making enemies on the council, then he is making enemies in town too. The councilman & co. is probably not at the level of "lynch mob" but they'll heckle him at talks, argue against anything and everything proposed at council meetings, and spread rumors of all sorts. If the councilman was a budding tyrant himself he may have spies, thugs, or, god forbid, bards in his service that can be called on.

In a town of 200 there probably aren't that many people who can play an instrument. When the one that can starts writing songs about your heroic deeds in a way that makes you seem incompetent, the next election is going to be hard.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about a Chaotic government is that "next election" happens as soon as the guy in charge tries something funny.

[Starchild7309]

It just so happens that one of the nobles who came to the colony in hopes of getting in on the ground floor of the burgeoning trade there brought a bard with him for entertainment.