Overthrowing the Royal Family cause they aren't the rightful heir to the throne. Help

[Reksew Trebla]

(Pathfinder)

To make a long story short, one of the characters found Excalibur, and in the middle of a battle, it ended up getting magically stuck in stone. The PCs were going to die having lost that advantage, but one of them decided to test his luck and see if he was a descendant of King Arthur and/or the rightful heir to the throne of Britain.

I took this opportunity to make him one... Only I forgot he was Chaotic Neutral, leaning over to Chaotic Evil.

He convinced the others that they should take over the throne of Britain, as it was his right to rule, and they would have positions of power, and now they are all hell bent on taking out the Royal Family.

Needless to say, I have no idea how to go about this.

Help please.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

First of all, congratulations on having proactive players, and for running a campaign with Excalibur and not being drowned in Monty Python humor.

That said, perhaps the anarcho-syndicalist peasant brings up a good point: Most people aren't going to take that sort of birthright seriously. In general, kings don't hold onto their title merely through birthright. They keep it with power, especially in a Pathfinder-style universe where personal power (eventually) trumps armies. So the current royal family murdered the people who murdered the people who murdered the last of the Arthurian kings; they're still in power because no one else can challenge them. Who's to say the PCs can?

Realistically, assuming the PCs are still low-to-mid level, they are either going to have to dawdle in slaver's bay until their dragons grow big and strong acquire power and prestige before striking, or rally other powerful forces to their cause, with a promise of... something. Your responsibility isn't to manage exactly what happens here; it's to lay out the scenario for the players. Then you make sure you know how the royal family (and anything else involved in the PCs' plan) operates, how they might (might!) detect the PC's plan, and how they will react to anything they do figure out. I foresee stats for town patrol, royal bodyguards, peasant hordes, noble sorcerers and the like.

[Tohsaka Rin]

How DOES one become the descendant of a man who sired only one child, them killed them himself?

[Coidzor]

I believe George R.R. Martin brings up some good points about "rightful" kings.


How DOES one become the descendant of a man who sired only one child, them killed them himself?

Someone harvested their reproductive tissue and bided their time?

Magically assisted necrophilia?

[Reksew Trebla]

How DOES one become the descendant of a man who sired only one child, them killed them himself?

Uther Pendragon, father of King Arthur, sired Arthur in secret, hence the whole need for a magic sword that can only be pulled out of stone by the rightful heir.

Whose to say King Arthur didn't do the same?

Plus there are many, many different takes on the King Arthur mythos, some of which have him having more children who have children of their own.

In fact, one of these grand children's mother was a Faerie Queen, making him half Faerie.

I'm actually starting to write a story based off of a descendant of that grandson of King Arthur.

While I'm on the subject of random factoids, did you know Merlin isn't Human. He's a Cambion. That is to say his mom was a Human, and his dad is a Demon Incubus. He was actually sired to be the Antichrist, but was baptized at birth to remove the hold Satan had on him. As a result, he gained his magic potential from his Demon Heritage.

And before you ask, no, I haven't spent that much time researching King Arthur. I learned all of this in about 24 hours, granted it wasn't all consecutive, and happened in my spare time over 3 days.


First of all, congratulations on having proactive players, and for running a campaign with Excalibur and not being drowned in Monty Python humor.

That said, perhaps the anarcho-syndicalist peasant brings up a good point: Most people aren't going to take that sort of birthright seriously. In general, kings don't hold onto their title merely through birthright. They keep it with power, especially in a Pathfinder-style universe where personal power (eventually) trumps armies. So the current royal family murdered the people who murdered the people who murdered the last of the Arthurian kings; they're still in power because no one else can challenge them. Who's to say the PCs can?

Realistically, assuming the PCs are still low-to-mid level, they are either going to have to dawdle in slaver's bay until their dragons grow big and strong acquire power and prestige before striking, or rally other powerful forces to their cause, with a promise of... something. Your responsibility isn't to manage exactly what happens here; it's to lay out the scenario for the players. Then you make sure you know how the royal family (and anything else involved in the PCs' plan) operates, how they might (might!) detect the PC's plan, and how they will react to anything they do figure out. I foresee stats for town patrol, royal bodyguards, peasant hordes, noble sorcerers and the like.

This is really helpful.

But I have a question. One of the PCs has an ally who lives with a royal family, as stated in his background. But it hasn't been touched on. Should I use this to bring in some drama with the characters by having that ally pull a "Star Wars Lando Betrayal Scene", or have him be a true ally and help them reach their goal? I'm not sure which would be better.

[Daishain]

Well, there are a couple of ways to overthrow a Monarch

-Raise an army, and conquer via overwhelming force. This takes a lot of coin and/or personal power, which your small band of adventurers probably do not have
-Start a revolution. This can be very easy, or even more difficult than raising an army. Most of the populace won't give a flying f*** about some random bloke showing up with a sword. This method pretty much only works if they are angry/mistreated/discontent, and is likely to backfire if (as appears to be likely), the new candidate is as bad or worse than the original.
-Undermine the Monarch's political power. The underhanded route, this would involve actions such as sowing discontent among the lords, sabotaging actions so that the king's decisions look foolish, and generally making sure no one actually trusts him to rule. Best used in conjunction with other actions.
-"Hire" an army from outside the kingdom. Every monarch has his nemeses, and there are likely to be many who are willing to take advantage of any weaknesses the party might make for them, if not necessarily without a bribe to get them moving. The catch here is twofold, they're unlikely to willingly back off and just let your guy take the spoils, and the populace are likely to loathe his guts for siding with their enemy.
-Kidnapping/assasination. Monarchs and their kin are often very well protected. But careful planning and teamwork, especially with a good sneaky character and a versatile spellcaster on the roster, can bypass those defences. The loss of a monarch and any heirs typically spells chaos. A bid from the "rightful heir of Authur" is likely to be taken rather seriously in this context. At least so long as there is no serious reason for people to believe they had a hand in the disappearance/death of the ruling family.

One possible scenario for a character leaning towards the evil side of life. Say there's three kingdoms in an area. A, the kingdom the party is attempting to rule. B, the *******s who want to rule everything. And C, a third state with fairly abundant resources that has mainly just defended themselves. Party assasinates A's monarch and all direct heirs. Makes a deal with B to mass on the borders with their army, look threatening, possibly chomp down on a few small settlements, with the purpose being to make the lords desperate to resolve the succession issue quickly. Party presents their man as the true heir, and possibly undergo some more political shananigans to actually make sure the bid goes through. A's new Monarch "negotiates" B into standing down. Party later "discovers" that C was responsible for the death of the old monarch, and as per the previous agreement, conquer C alongside B, and divide the spoils. I would probably have the party discover a not entirely unexpected plan by B to betray them at some point in this, and encourage them to nip it in the bud quietly so that plans may proceed, or just betray them in turn.

[Lycoris]

(Pathfinder)I took this opportunity to make him one... Only I forgot he was Chaotic Neutral, leaning over to Chaotic Evil.

So you basically created a descendant/reincarnation of Mordred? If that's the case, it may be good to try and find ways to draw parallels to Mordred's actions during the campaign (which was pretty much betrayal/revolution). Depending on what you want the final outcome to be, you might well let the party become evil and show them the full consequences of their actions (depleted military strength, political unrest, public opinions, etc.).


How DOES one become the descendant of a man who sired only one child, them killed them himself?

A wizard (Merlin)/witch (Morgause/Morgan Le Fay)/fairy (The Lady of the Lake) did it. Alternatively, it could be some form of King Arthur's Messianic Return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur%27s_messianic_return). Give them some time, and I'm sure Type-Moon will write out some variation of this campaign as well, anyway :smallwink: .

[Segev]

I think the first thing you need to do is ask yourself, "how do the current rulers maintain their power?" What is the governmental structure, what is the balance of benevolence/tyranny, and how well-loved are the rulers by a) the people, b) the nobility, and c) the military? Note that b) and c) are often very similar if not identical in feudal kingdoms, and the loyalty of men-at-arms to their immediate liege is typically higher than to their liege-lord's liege-lord.

That doesn't mean this is always the case; sometimes, men-at-arms only serve out of fear, and will take a better offer if it's given. Other times, a noble may be loyal but his soldiers less rock-solid. Sometimes, idealistic soldiers may believe the "divine right to rule" thing more than they have loyalty to their lord, and go serve the king if called. Even against their lord's will.

Once you know the political layout, your job is 85% done. The next step is not to plan how the PCs CAN take over...but to ask them what they do to try. Then, the rest of your job is to figure out how the existing power structure reacts to their efforts.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This is really helpful.

But I have a question. One of the PCs has an ally who lives with a royal family, as stated in his background. But it hasn't been touched on. Should I use this to bring in some drama with the characters by having that ally pull a "Star Wars Lando Betrayal Scene", or have him be a true ally and help them reach their goal? I'm not sure which would be better.It sounds like this ally hasn't really been fleshed out all that much. I'd remind the player of this connection and ask him to collaboratively flesh this NPC out with you. That will help inform the actions the NPC takes. It could be as simple as "well, my character doesn't know much about him, except he's helpful," in which case you can take it wherever you want.

And when you say "a royal family," you mean one from another kingdom, correct? If so, they might be delighted to get a toehold into a competing kingdom, or even just cause chaos and then sweep in and take the crown themselves. If it's the same family, he would likely be worried about what would happen to him after the tumult. Then again if he's 15th in line he might be looking for any way to get a promotion. You definitely don't need to have them working with the existing monarchy to make them devious, anyway.

[John Longarrow]

I'd suggest being a bit pro-active on the Royal families part. They've just heard about a new wielder of Excalibur who won a big battle.

1) They can try to dismiss him. Publicly talk down about him. Have gossip spread. Paint him as evil, terrible, a tyrant in the making.

2) They can side line him. Accept that he's won the fight. Give him a token position. Send him off to a Scottish keep to keep peace.

3) They can use him. Arrange for him to become part of the nobility. Knight him. Use him as an agent of the crown, send him to teach the Scots/Irish/French a lesson in War!

4) They can assimilate him. Take him in, marry him into a prominent (or royal) family. Have him become a public hero, a savior of the people! (NOTE:Generally will draw a LOT of attention from envious nobles/other enemies).

Their reasons and future plans will not always match how they originally treat him. Sending him to a Scottish keep to keep him out of the way may be so they can learn his measure and see if he's worthy of more. Of course bringing him into the Family could be just to get an Heir out of him with a better claim on the throne. This is followed by getting the people so upset with him that they threaten to revolt, thus allowing them to get rid of him quickly....

[VoxRationis]

Start mapping out the major lords of the land and all their forces and motivations. This is going to become a Game of Thrones sort of affair pretty quickly.
Also look for mass combat rules, or improvise some if you have to.