The Song of Ice and Fire Speculation Thread

[Ishmael]

Before we get started on this, I would like to point out that this is likely to be rife with spoilers from all of the books.

So, what do you have about the book to theorize about. There's a lot.

So, why don't we begin?

Firstly, the issue of Jon Snow intrigues me. I love Jon. He is, hands down, my favorite character in the book. If Martin kills him off, I will probably cry (I actually got close to it during the Red Wedding, damn, that was a suprise--oh, and when Ned died, damn it!). There has been a LOT of speculation of his parentage. Personally, after weighing the theories, I think that he is Rhagear and Lyanna's son. That would, of course, make him NOT Ned's son, which would be disapointing in some way, but it would be awesome. I want the series to end with him defeating the Others, marrying Dany, and being happy. It probably won't be like that. (*sigh*)

So, Dany. She's getting more and more badass. I mean, she's really cool. One of my favorite characters. I think she is Azor Ahai, obviously, and I wish her luck in her invasion of Westeros. By the time she invades, Cersei (damn her), will be dead, most of the ruling houses kind of weak, and the Others attacking in full.

I actually think Jorah Mormont will return. Maybe as a POV character. Now, wouldn't that be fun? I don't think his story is over at all.

Despite my protests, Jaime has now become one of my loved characters. I feel really sorry for him, and now understand his justification for regicide. His dreams, though, seem a little...mysterious.

Coldhands. He has to be Benjen Stark. I mean, we've barely dealt with the guy. I think he's the agent of the Children of the Forest. We'll find out soon in A Dance With Dragons.

Arya, as well, remains one of my most liked characters. The entire series, I've just wanted her to go back to winterfell and be with Jon, or something like that. She woke up...blind? Martin referred to her again as Arya rather than an assumed name, too, at the end of the chapter. She has to play some role in the end of things, but her position is so vulnerable, she might very well die.

There is too much to talk about!

Let's see...oh! Illyrio and Varys. They had a little chat in A Game of Thrones, which revealed much about their plans. How far reaching do you think they have? Is Littlefinger somehow affecting their plans, or is her but a pawn? Will Dany be a good pawn to them? Tyrion, I believe, is in Illyrio's grasp--what will happen to him?

Brienne. She's kind of annoying, but lovable. The word she shouted, while being hanged--could it be 'Jaime'? That would be too simplistic, though. This Stoneheart is certainly not Catelyn, at least not in a full sense--some sort of evil incarnation of revenge.

Hmm...there is a lot more, but not enough time to post.

Theorize, and speculate, my fellow fans!

[Mr._Blinky]

Some interesting theories in there, though one I have a problem with is your theory of Jon (also my favorite character, along with Tyrion) being Rhaegar's son. Multiple times Jon is described by various characters as looking like his father, as in Ned Stark. I doubt he just happens to look like him. No, I'm pretty sure they are legitly father-son.

Hadn't thought about Coldhands being Benjen. It is a possible, to be certain, but I'm not sure how good of one. It seems to be more of an ancient supernatural-thing than good version of a wight.

I too am curious about what Brienne's word is, though I too doubt it is "Jaime", as that's just a little to simple. Out of the characters shown from point-of-view, she's probably my least favorite accept Sansa in books 1 and 2. I don't think she's a bad character, mind you, I just think she needs a little more depth than the whole "I think I'm a freak, and I don't trust men". A little more to define her personality would be nice.

Oh, and I almost cheered out loud when Jaime told his squire to burn Cersei's letter. Despite how much I hated him in the first and second books (as a person, not a character), books three and four really add a lot to his personality. I'd have to say, that throughout the entire series Cersei is one of the few characters who has pretty much no redeeming qualities, and the only one of point-of-view characters.

[storybookknight]

I want to hear more about our favorite hunchback! Tyrion is a pretty interesting guy, and I honestly believe he'd be the best the eldest stark girl could hope for. Certainly, it would be an improvement over her current circumstances.

I kinda miss Sandor Clegane as well. Maybe I have a thing for characters who are visually scarred?

I like Dany, but I'm afraid that she's going to get corrupted by circumstances. None of the really good characters in this seem to stay that way for long... Few enough of the bad ones stay bad, though, which is also a thing.

I just want to see a conclusion.

[Dr._Weird]

I was not happy with AFFC. All my favorite characters are the ones that are going to be in ADWD. I can't wait.


Coldhands is probably not Benjen. If I remember correctly, Coldhands had a cloak of the Night's Watch on, and earlier Samwell found a cloak (Most definitely Benjen's) with the dragonglass in it, so unless he somehow found another cloak, it's not him.

Stoneheart is most definitely Catelyn. The same thing has been done to her that has been hinted to have been done to Gregor, and also was done to Beric. She just seems different from Beric because her throat is cut so she can't talk, and also she is incredibly pissed off.


Arya is a total badass. She's definitely going to become a Faceless One and do all sorts of badass stuff. :smallcool:

I too think that R+L=J (As they say on the ASOIAF forums). It's been cleverly alluded to so many times. I can go into more detail if asked.

So, the dragon has three heads. Which is three dragons. Which is three riders. The only question is who those riders are... I'm thinking Dany (duh), Jon Snow (He's a Targaryen), and... who? Tyrion? He was heading in that direction, and it would fit for him to ride a gold dragon (I think that's Viserion). Also, that would be pretty badass.

*Realizes he's saying badass too much*
*Realizes he doesn't care*


BTW, like my avatar?

(No I will not stop saying that in ASOIAF threads)

[Glaivemaster]

Some interesting theories in there, though one I have a problem with is your theory of Jon (also my favorite character, along with Tyrion) being Rhaegar's son. Multiple times Jon is described by various characters as looking like his father, as in Ned Stark. I doubt he just happens to look like him. No, I'm pretty sure they are legitly father-son.

The thing about this, though, is that Jon could (and probably would) look like his mother, Lyanna. As Lyanna is Ned's sister, a Stark, it wouldn't be too surprising that Jon looks like her at all, and it has been alluded to many times before

I am interested in what Littlefinger is doing as well. I have the feeling that he is going to come out on top in this series, which kind of annoys me, since I don't really like him that much.

[Vix]

I think I've found my home in this tread:D



Firstly, the issue of Jon Snow intrigues me. There has been a LOT of speculation of his parentage. Personally, after weighing the theories, I think that he is Rhagear and Lyanna's son. That would, of course, make him NOT Ned's son, which would be disapointing in some way, but it would be awesome. I want the series to end with him defeating the Others, marrying Dany, and being happy. It probably won't be like that. (*sigh*)

This is totaly possible but I don't think so. In one of Arya's chapters she meets someone claiming to be Jon Snow's milk brother. It's one thing for Ned to Promise to keep Lyanna's secret but why would this third party agree? Unless... the kid was a Dayne and the Sword of the morning was there when Lyanna died hmmm... I changed my mind I think you're right


So, Dany. She's getting more and more badass. I mean, she's really cool. One of my favorite characters. I think she is Azor Ahai, obviously, and I wish her luck in her invasion of Westeros. By the time she invades, Cersei (damn her), will be dead, most of the ruling houses kind of weak, and the Others attacking in full.

I actually think Jorah Mormont will return. Maybe as a POV character. Now, wouldn't that be fun? I don't think his story is over at all.
Yeah she's Azor Ahai though for a while I was hoping it was Beric
Yeah I think Jorah will have his POV in Dance. I really hope the Blackfish gets a POV now that he's escaped and gonna cause all sorts of problems for Jamie.(my Fav)(I love having Favs on both sides of conflicts)


Despite my protests, Jaime has now become one of my loved characters. I feel really sorry for him, and now understand his justification for regicide. His dreams, though, seem a little...mysterious.
Yeah I love him, can't wait till he kills his sister(though Kinslaying seems to get you in trouble(really worried about Tyrion for that reason))


Coldhands. He has to be Benjen Stark. I mean, we've barely dealt with the guy. I think he's the agent of the Children of the Forest. We'll find out soon in A Dance With Dragons.
can't wait to find out


Arya, as well, remains one of my most liked characters. The entire series, I've just wanted her to go back to winterfell and be with Jon, or something like that. She woke up...blind? Martin referred to her again as Arya rather than an assumed name, too, at the end of the chapter. She has to play some role in the end of things, but her position is so vulnerable, she might very well die.

BLIND eeek. Maybe it's not permanent? I'll probably cry if she dies after all she's been through


Let's see...oh! Illyrio and Varys. They had a little chat in A Game of Thrones, which revealed much about their plans. How far reaching do you think they have? Is Littlefinger somehow affecting their plans, or is her but a pawn? Will Dany be a good pawn to them? Tyrion, I believe, is in Illyrio's grasp--what will happen to him?
I've read a spoiler chapter for Tyrion
He's acting like an ass but now he's going to Dany. though I worry cause he killed his Dad. Maybe since Tywin never considered him a son it won't count?


Brienne. She's kind of annoying, but lovable. The word she shouted, while being hanged--could it be 'Jaime'? That would be too simplistic, though. This Stoneheart is certainly not Catelyn, at least not in a full sense--some sort of evil incarnation of revenge.
I hate Catelyn now, hanging the only one who might have helped your daughter. uggh. Though I think she yelled out 'Jamie'. Disappointing to some, but Brienne's not really that profound.

EDIT:I've just thought of further 'proof' of Jon being Rhagaer's son: remember when Dany was in the house of the undying ones and she was seeing all those visions... well one was of Rhagaer naming his son, Aegon, with Elia, then he says there must be one more. possibly Jon?

Also; there was an old thread of these kinds of discussions on SoIaF here's the link (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12053&highlight=song+fire)

[Ishmael]

BTW, like my avatar?


I just realized where your avatar was from. Bravo!

This is the best picture of Jon I have even seen. The Night's Watch is the coolest! (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Gallery/Entry/817/)

Tyrion as the third head of the dragon? But, don't the heads have to be Targaryen? I suppose not. That would be tremendously cool. I don't want Tyrion ruling Casterly Rock. He should live a long, contented life in the Free Cities.

Of all the words that Brienne shouted, it was probably 'sword'. She was offered the choice between the sword--to kill Jaime--and the rope, hanging. Hmm...


I certainly don't want Littlefinger to win out. He deserves to be pushed off the Eyrie. Or, to meet Stoneheart. That would be interesting.

Though I want Cersei dead, I want Tommen to live. He shouldn't be killed, by any regard--he's too sweet and innocent.

Who do you think killed Joff? Lady Olenna is a good choice, especially because she messed around with Sansa's hairpiece. Littlefinger was most certainly involved. Actually, it took me by suprise when Lysa said she killed Jon Arryn. That's what made Ned really come down to King's Landing, and planted suspicion for the Lannisters, largely leading to the war, as Catelyn took Tyrion hostage. Littlefinger caused the war, and thusly killed, indirectly, Ned and Rob! Damn him! He's even plotting Varys, or so it seems.

[Wraithy]

Dany's chapter at the end of feast for crows was worrying -
the dragon ate a child.

Tommen deserves to live, it's not his fault he's inbred.

i've allways thought of Benjen as Coldhands.

[Vix]

I don't think there's any doubt that Lady Olenna / Littlefinger killed Joff, for which they get gold stars.

Who do you guys think Margery's sleeping with? I first thought Loras but that's unlikely if he's gay. Pycelle could be making it up but I doubt it. I think she'll come out of her predicament relatively unscathed though.

[Reinforcements]

I'm really glad that Cersei's finally going to get what's coming to her, the crazy bitch. Also, while I realize they probably aren't exactly good people, I like the Tyrrels. Mace and Olenna ruling through Margaery has got to be better than Cersei's idiocy.

I was very disappointed that Beric Dondarrion finally died - and for CATELYN? **** that noise. He was like an undead Robin Hood, she's just crazy.

I'm probably most interested in seeing what happens to Arya - she's my favorite character. Also, the Faceless Men are awesome. I'm also very interested to see what happens with Victarion. Trying to force Dany to do anything will probably end very badly for him, but I hope he ultimately has more sense than that. He doesn't seem like a bad sort. Jorah will probably end up doing something stupid, though.

Finally, this theory about Jon being Rhaegar's son seems out of nowhere to me.

[Lemur]

I'm not entirely sure Coldhands has to be Benjen, mainly because he could be really old fairly easily, considering he's not among the living.

I'm mainly interested in what Tyrion will be like now that he's killed Tywin. In the past Tyrion seemed to struggle with trying to be good and trying to be effective in the Game. I'd be interested to see if Tyrion has truly decided to become the ruthless and devious monster everyone assumes he is.

I think Dany has been too quick to figure out what her betrayals were. I have a suspicion that two of them are still left, and the betrayal for love has yet to be truly carried out (though still likely by Jorah). I also wonder what will happen if Tyrion shows up on her doorstep (seems very likely, but I've learned not to count on much with this series). For that matter, I wonder what will happen when that crazy conspiracy-theorist Maester, aka "the Mage" (can't remember his name at the moment) shows his face again.

For some reason, I hope that Rickon becomes a really kickass berserker type warrior. He's likely gone to the Umbers, so maybe he'll learn about combat from the Greatjon, who's quite ferocious himself. He's the only Stark who we haven't seen much of, due to his youth, and at least so far, he's the only one who isn't in completely over his head. For this to happen, though, I'd imagine there would have to be some significant time passage, and at the rate things are going, I'm not sure if Rickon will really have much of a role in future books. I have a feeling that he'll grow up angry and impetuous though, which could be trouble for him.

Even though I don't really like him, I would like to know the fate of Theon. Death may not be so bad compared to captivity by the Boltons.

And what about our good Faceless friend? His helping Arya and giving her passage to Braavos seems a little bit too coincidental to my liking. And now he's at the Citadel for who knows what reason.

I'm suspicious of Varys as well. I'm wondering if he's been trying to aid the last Targaryen(s) all this time.

And who thinks Gendry is going to end up making the magic sword thing that seems to be so important? At this point, he seems the most likely candidate for it. But of course, that could just mean he'll meet and unexpected and grisly fate, for that matter.

Although it's clear that Catelyn has become a unnatural abomination seething with nothing but hatred, I do hope that she is let loose on the Freys before meeting her own end.

And Davos. I have no idea what's going on with Davos, but does anyone else get the feeling that he's one of Martin's personal favorite characters?

I was hoping that Sansa could learn everything about playing the Game from someone as treacherous as Littlefinger, but she still seems slow on getting a clue.

I'm particularly worried about Arya- not because she can't see, but about how she'll deal with it. Saying "screw you" to the faceless dudes will just mean she'll stumble around blind forever, but becoming one of them seems to have it's own risks as well. I don't think they really realize that Arya's spirit is bound to a giant wolf over the seas. I'm beginning to have my doubts that Arya will ever meet up with her wolf again- and if she does, if they'll truly reunite again. While I'm not taking anyone's life for granted anymore, I'd be really upset if Arya killed her wolf with her own hands.

[Dr._Weird]

Plenty of explanations for R+L=J. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=8085)


There's a lot of stuff there, but what I remember is...

Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar.

Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna (From Robert's perspective)

Lyanna died on a "Bed of Blood". A phrase similar to this was used by Mirri Maz Duur (I don't remember how that's spelled) to refer to a birthing bed.

Jon Snow's birthday is estimated to be somewhere around then.

Rhaegar had the Kingsguard protecting her. That was for a reason.

There was some metapor about a blue rose snuck in somewhere in one of Jon's chapters. It has been said many times that Lyanna loved blue roses.

Jon Snow bears a resemblance to Eddard, who presumably bears a resemblance to Lyanna.

I don't remember this very clearly, but I think Ned (RIP) gets very uncomfortable when Jon Snow is referred to as his child. We all know how much Ned hated to lie...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the whole "Promise me, Ned" thing? Yeah.

[Vix]

Don't forget the whole 'Promise me Ned' that was eating him up

It also means he'll have to watch out for Stannis wanting kings' blood

I think Gendry making the magic sword would be too cliche for Martin
Same with Benjen as clodhands, really, but who knows

[anphorus]

Mellisandre says that she's seeking "king's blood", though it seems far more likely to me that she is seeking the Blood of the Dragon (was this explicitly stated somewhere? My memory on this is a bit foggy). The Baratheons were cousins to the Targaryens after all, and all kinds of people tried to wake dragon eggs for years, but only Daenerys could do it, though that may be because she is the Prince that was promised and all that.

The R+L=J theory seemed out of the blue to me when I first read it, but once I read back over Game of Thrones, it started to seem more and more likely. Especially the part where Robert questions Ned about Jon and his answer is "He is of my blood, that's all you need to know". That answer just reeks of evasion. Couple that with Ned's tendency not to lie. The reason he covers up who Jon's mother is could be to stop people finding out he isn't his. When he sees Roberts bastard in the brothel he thinks of whether Rhaegar visited brothels, right out of the blue... Anyway, I'm rambling.

For some reason since about book 2, I've been thinking that Bran is eventually going to permanently take over Hodor's body.

I hope and pray that Rickon gets a POV eventually, we're running out of Starks and he doesn't seem to have any sort of personality as yet. Plus, being a Stark child with no POV leaves him very vulnerable.

Thank the seven that Cersei seems to be finally getting her comeuppance. It was refreshing to have a character with no redeeming features. She didn't even seem to love Jaime at all. It was fun reading her POVs and thinking "No, you moron, don't do that!" and the like. Lady Merryweather always seemed like an obvious spy to me.

Arya's blindness is probably a test; I think she'll get her eyesight back eventually.

I'm not sure whether Blackhands is Benjen Stark, though. The Others and the wights are related, certainly but they are not the same thing. Do the others even have blackened hands, like the wights? Are the others an entirely different race, perhaps a race of The Other?

I can't wait to get more Bran, Arya, Jon and Tyrion action in the next book; those are my favourite characters too, though I've come to like Jaime as well.

Final Thought(s) and Crazy musings: I wonder what effect that Fire Horn will have on Dany's dragons. The seasons are defiantly starting to look more and more like the work of R'hllor and the Other. Just what WAS the doom that fell on Valyria? What is in the Shadow Lands past Asshai? When will I stop rambling on? Will Jaime ever pull a Quorin Halfhand on everybody? Do the Targaryens have in their veins the blood of an ancient race of R'hllor which was the opposite of the Others? Why does every fantasy story deal with wolves in particular in some mythical or semi-mythical fashion?

I love this series.

[Wraithy]

Why does every fantasy story deal with wolves in particular in some mythical or semi-mythical fashion?

I love this series.

hmmm..............
werewolves are a common myth. Very common.

[Ishmael]

There is a pretty concrete list of POV characters for the book. The confirmed ones are:

Jon
Tyrion
Davos
Dany
Bran
Arya
Asha Greyjoy


The unconfirmed ones, I believe, include:

A new POV (Jorah, maybe Quentyn Martell)
An old POV, coming back. Seeing as most of the old POV characters have died, the only possible choice is Theon.

[Flabbicus]

There is a pretty concrete list of POV characters for the book. The confirmed ones are:

Jon
Tyrion
Davos
Dany
Bran
Arya
Asha Greyjoy


The unconfirmed ones, I believe, include:

A new POV (Jorah, maybe Quentyn Martell)
An old POV, coming back. Seeing as most of the old POV characters have died, the only possible choice is Theon.

I think you're forgetting Victarion as well. He might be mentioned again.

[Dr._Weird]

Woot for a great POV list. Except for Davos. I've never really found him very interesting.

[Glaivemaster]

I'd always assumed that Davos had died. The last time we actually saw anything of him, Stannis was about to behead him, and I assumed that that had been the case, since Stannis is supposed to be just etc.

[Ishmael]

I am a little apprehensive about Theon. I never liked him.

Stannis seems to be getting a more solid position, what with all the infighting down in the South. Cersei being tried, the Tyrells and Tarly's marching south down to King's Landing, and Kevan being called in for the regentship. Hmm...


Of all things, it is too early for Dany to begin her invasion. Duh. She's going to have some fun in Meereen, though. I think she is going to be betrayed by that damn mercenary she is so infatuated by. Betrayal for money, no? Jorah seems to obvious a choice to have betrayed her in that way, and Martin wouldn't use Illyrio, it would be too obvious.

[Vix]

I was slow to get into Davos but I came around. Supposedly the Manderly's beheaded him. It was vaguely mentioned in FFC.

I'd like a Varys POV. See what he's really thinking. Quentyn Martell would be good too. I don't really like any of the Iron born myself so Vic., theon, Asha sounds like they'll drown out the Starks. Unfortunatly Arya was in FFC, have to wait like seven more years prob. :'(

[Shadowdweller]

I don't think there's any doubt that Lady Olenna / Littlefinger killed Joff, for which they get gold stars.

Sorry, Jaime killed Joff. He flat out admits to this in AFFC.

[Wippit Guud]

Am I the only one really looking forward to reading more about Bran? He's a warg, I'm sure he'll eventually be riding Summer rather than Hodor, and he's heir to Winterfell right now. Think of the army a warg can bring to bear on someone.

*has a dog named Summer.

[Wippit Guud]

Sorry, Jaime killed Joff. He flat out admits to this in AFFC.

Nah... he said that just to piss Cersi off.

[Shadowdweller]

Nah... he said that just to piss Cersi off.
Without actually speaking the words aloud (internal subtext)? Pretty damn effective insult, that.

[Reinforcements]

Sorry, Jaime killed Joff. He flat out admits to this in AFFC.
What? No he doesn't.

[Glaivemaster]

Sorry, Jaime killed Joff. He flat out admits to this in AFFC.

I remember Tyrion admitting to killing Joffrey to Jaime, to piss him off. Jaime wasn't anywhere nearby when Joff died though, so it's not really possible, since he didn't have the means to get contact to someone to kill Joff for him either (either he was imprisoned or with Brienne at the time)

Find me the quote where Jaime says he kills Joff, and I might consider believing you

[Ishmael]

I'm pretty damn sure that Jaime didn't kill him. Tyrion admitted to doing so TO Jaime, but that was false.

[Vix]

Am I the only one really looking forward to reading more about Bran? He's a warg, I'm sure he'll eventually be riding Summer rather than Hodor, and he's heir to Winterfell right now. Think of the army a warg can bring to bear on someone.

*has a dog named Summer.

Yeah Bran has one of the best stories. Better than Jon's anyway. I believe he'll be a big hero soon. The Children will teach him magic and heal his legs (maybe). Someone mentioned that he'll take over Hodor's body. I hope not, that idea makes me feel ill, I like Hodor as he is.

Any speculation as to what's on the Isle of Faces?
Reeds gonna kill the Freys?
Why Margery needs Moon Tea, I mean Who is she sleeping with?
Who's gonna get to kill Cersie?
Samwell training with the Maege?
What's with that lady with mask? (can't remember her name, starts with a Q?)
What's the blackfish gonna do now?

[Wippit Guud]

Who's gonna get to kill Cersie?

My vote is Gregor :)

[Thiel]

I don't think the Children are going to heal Brans legs.
Their magic seems to be more in the mystical department. You know, spirits and dreams and such.

[Ishmael]

What's with that lady with mask? (can't remember her name, starts with a Q?)


Quaithe. I think she is telling Dany that she won't approach Westeros via the East, as most people do, but approach it for the first time in the world via the East--Martin has strongly stressed that nobody had done that before. To do that, she needs to go through Asshai and the Shadow.

[Vix]

@^:THAT is gonna be good. The only problem is that it's gonna take too long.:smallfrown: Westeros is ripe for the overtaking NOW.

@^^Your probably right about the Children. Plus I doubt this story is gonna have a happy ending. I mean Bran's the heir to Winterfell but he's crippled; Even if Dany takes the Iron Throne she can't have children, the line is ended and chaos ensues:smalleek: that's not happy (not that I'm complaining; It's half the reason I love this series)

[Mr._Blinky]

Despite peoples' fears, I really, really doubt Martin will kill off Arya, at least any time soon. He's demonstrated in the past that while he isn't afraid to kill of major characters, he does so only when he has a reason to, one that advances the plot. How does Arya dying at this point advance the plot at all? No one even knows she's alive, so her death would just look like, "I couldn't think of anything to do with her, so I'm offing her, and none of the other characters will ever even know."

My theory that I've been working on:
Arya continues her training, and ends up being some kind of badass assassin-priestess. Now, remember that the faceless ones call death a "gift". So what would they consider something that has been deprived of "the gift"? Likely, they'd consider it an abomination. And who has been deprived of death in the series? Stoneheart, AKA Arya's own mother.

Leading to my two ideas of what might happen:
1. Arya, now a loyal follower of the faceless ones, is sent to Westeros to destroy an undead abomination, since it has resisted the "gift". Does so. Perhaps she then proceeds to assassinate anything else that has been deprived of death, such as the wights, or whatever it is (presumably Gregor's corpse) that Qyburn has been cooking up.
2. Same thing, except it is done as her final test, to make sure she has no ties to her past. She kills Stoneheart, and becomes a full priestess. Then maybe proceeds with the badassery, as shown in option 1.
3. Sent to kill Stoneheart as in option 1 or 2, but finds herself unable or unwilling to do it. She then, having forsaken her new religion and having realized that she can't truly change who she is, reunites with her wolf, and uses her new skills to bring her vengeance on those responsible for the destruction of her family.

Not neccessarily what I believe will happen, but I believe these are likely options.

[Wippit Guud]

Despite peoples' fears, I really, really doubt Martin will kill off Arya, at least any time soon. He's demonstrated in the past that while he isn't afraid to kill of major characters, he does so only when he has a reason to, one that advances the plot. How does Arya dying at this point advance the plot at all? No one even knows she's alive, so her death would just look like, "I couldn't think of anything to do with her, so I'm offing her, and none of the other characters will ever even know."

Actually, Martin has been quoted as saying that he kills off characters he becomes attached to... he doesn't want to feel he can't kill someone just because he likes the character.

[Mr._Blinky]

Actually, Martin has been quoted as saying that he kills off characters he becomes attached to... he doesn't want to feel he can't kill someone just because he likes the character.
Yeah, but he also isn't stupid. I can completely understand him killing her off if there's a point to it, and if he really feels he's grown attached to the character, but he has to have an in-story reason for it. He can't just say, "she dies alone without her story ever being fullfilled, so that her entire solo-plot was a waste of time" just because he feels too attached. He knows if he did, a lot of people would be angry, and not the "NOOOO, NED!" angry, the "WTF was the point of that?!" angry. At this point, Arya's death can't effect the story in any meaningful way, therefore he has no logical way of killing her off without leaving gaping plot-holes.

[Shadowdweller]

I remember Tyrion admitting to killing Joffrey to Jaime, to piss him off. Jaime wasn't anywhere nearby when Joff died though, so it's not really possible, since he didn't have the means to get contact to someone to kill Joff for him either (either he was imprisoned or with Brienne at the time)

Find me the quote where Jaime says he kills Joff, and I might consider believing you
Unfortunately, I no longer have the book in my possession as reference. Moreover, as a bit of web searching (including a chapter-by-chapter summary) does not seem to be uncovering such a thing, I become inclined to wonder whether I am not in fact falling victim to the whole False Memory Syndrome thing.

Therefore...err...umm...*cough*. My apologies.

[Ishmael]

I slightly object to Arya's joining the Faceless Men. I hope she learns everything, then goes on to be herself, killing her enemies, but remaining Arya.

You know what? Bran's been saying a million times that he wants to fly. Dany has dragons. Hmm...

[Ishmael]

Sorry for the doubt post, but it was for bumping purposes.

How do you guys think Littlefinger is going to fit into everything? I am rather confused about his motives. He started a war, and his only real gain seems to have been Harrenhall. He's marrying off Sansa, so he can't even indulge himself there. I thought it was originally an effort to get Catelyn, but she's dead now.

[Vix]

Littlefinger is messed up. Speculating about his motives/ plans is pointless, only he knows (possibly not even himself as he seems to follow whims). But What the heck? That whole the Eyrie rising for Sansa is crap IMO. He'll keep her for himself. Other than that I got nothing; he continually surprises me.

[Mr._Blinky]

I have to admit, while I hate Littlefinger as a person, and trust him an even shorter distance than I could throw him, he is an interesting character. He's constantly surprising everyone, and know one but him knows his true motives. If you back up and really look at it, he can actually be seen as the main antagonist of the books, since practically everything so far has happened due to his machinations. Until we know what his ultimate goal is, we'll never know what he might do next.

[Gorbash]

I truly despise Dany and every other Targaryen. I used to skip her chapters, and then come back later, when I had to.
It will be a disaster if Jon turns up to be one of them, since he is one of my favourite characters (Hound, Jaqen, Arya, Oberyn are the rest), that will be a great disapointment. I must agree with Robert on this one:

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

RIP

[Mr._Blinky]

I truly despise Dany and every other Targaryen. I used to skip her chapters, and then come back later, when I had to.
It will be a disaster if Jon turns up to be one of them, since he is one of my favourite characters (Hound, Jaqen, Arya, Oberyn are the rest), that will be a great disapointment. I must agree with Robert on this one:

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

RIP
Maybe the entire reason you despise her is that you haven't read the sections with her? I don't really mean any offense, but you can't really have an informed decision if you don't actually know the character at all. If you had read her sections, you'd probably realize that she is actually a far better person than the other Targaryens. I don't think she's one of my favorite characters, but she is actually a far better person than many of the other characters, including Robert.

[SITB]

I, for one, like the character of Littlefingers. I just have a thing for comptent antagonists.

I think that during the first book Arya heard the Varys was pro-Targaryen, though I could misremember it.

Also, Tyrion* is the best charcter in there, seriously how can you beat:" If you will continue the behaviour nephew, your regian shall be shorter then me"?**

EDIT: \/ While I do cringe everytime that Dany thinks about "the usurper" I think that she thinks that way is because off the bull**** that her brother fed her. But still she has other redeeming qualities, for instance she isn't as dumb a Ceresi or Joffery, that counts for something.

*And everyone connected to him, such as Bronn and the clan people.

**Especially since it was directed at that stupid brat Joffrey .

[Gorbash]

Maybe the entire reason you despise her is that you haven't read the sections with her? I don't really mean any offense, but you can't really have an informed decision if you don't actually know the character at all. If you had read her sections, you'd probably realize that she is actually a far better person than the other Targaryens. I don't think she's one of my favorite characters, but she is actually a far better person than many of the other characters, including Robert.

Like I said, I skipped them, and then came back later to her chapters to read them, since they didn't have much to do with what was going on in Westeros, but had a lot to do with the storyline. So, yes, I read her chapters, I read the whole series twice, so yes I know a lot about her, and thus I came to the conclusion that I don't like her. I don't like her attitude "I'm the rightful queen, Robert is the usurper", I mean with what right did Aegon rule Westeros? Might. So, she has no right to do throne, whatsoever, and I truly hope she dies before the end.

[Mr._Blinky]

Like I said, I skipped them, and then came back later to her chapters to read them, since they didn't have much to do with what was going on in Westeros, but had a lot to do with the storyline. So, yes, I read her chapters, I read the whole series twice, so yes I know a lot about her, and thus I came to the conclusion that I don't like her. I don't like her attitude "I'm the rightful queen, Robert is the usurper", I mean with what right did Aegon rule Westeros? Might. So, she has no right to do throne, whatsoever, and I truly hope she dies before the end.
You've gotta' remember though, that's the only right any of them have to the throne, so you can't hate her for that without also hating Robert, Stannis, Renly, Rob, and anyone else who has been or wanted to be a king. She wants the throne because she thinks it is her right and duty, same as everyone else. If you think the same way that most of Westeros does, in terms of bloodlines governing regency, then she is the rightful ruler, for the same reason half the others think themselves the rightful rulers. If you just go with "might makes right", well, she does happen to have a hugeass army of super-loyal soldiers...

[Ishmael]

Well, frankly, Dany's reasons for wanting to rule are a lot better than everyone else's. I mean, Cersei? She just wants power. Stannis? He thinks it is his duty. Robb was the only one of the rulers who didn't rebel because he wanted power. Frankly, he rebelled to get the hell out of the nation that killed his father.

Dany, on the other hand, does not want power just because. She has stated several times that she wants the people of Westeros to love her. That generally implies she means to take actions that will make the people love her. That includes either ruling as a fair, just, and strong Queen, or brainwashing everyone. I think the former option is more like her.

I mean, I used to think her claim as being the 'rightful' ruler of Westeros was bull, since it in itself was conquered. But, if we bring ourselves to that sophistry, then isn't everything like that. The United States was built on the land of slaughtered Native Americans. England, as we know it, was taken by the Normans, and even earlier by Saxon invasions. Do we call the Queen of England an 'unrightful' ruler because William the Conqueror took over? Must be dissolve all nation states, then, because nigh every civilization in the world was formed via the conquest of a previous group. Think even farther back. India was taken by the Aryans, producing the Vedic culture group. Spain is an rough mix of indigenous racial groups, Latin, and Muslim influence. There is no 'rightful' ruler to anything, but that does not mean that we should absolve legality because of it. If we operated off of the basis that no ruler was legitimate, than utter chaos would ensue.

Dany is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Her blood provides a legal reason. More than that, however, she is the best ruler that vies for the throne. She cares about her people, certainly more than Joff did or Renly did. Power for power's sake doesn't seem right for her. She isn't pliable like Tommen, who would, despite his sweetness, prove to be a terrible ruler. Robb would be great, but he's dead, and he only wanted the North/Riverlands. Stannis is too iron-like, brittle. Dany has proved she is just, but fair. I think she's prove to be amazing.

She should die right after she defeats the Others.

[Vix]

She should die right after she defeats the Others.

Where did that come from?? All this pro Dany then caboom

As much as I like Dany and am rooting for her, if she does take Westeros she can't leave an heir so what's the point? Just be right back where they started

[Ishmael]

GRRM is too good of an author to let everything end happy. I love Dany. I don't think she would work surviving the work. Either she dies, or Jon does. Jon better damn not die.

I believe the end of the novel is going to be bittersweet. That'll be interesting.

Who do you think will end up with the Iron Throne, at the end? Dany, maybe, but, if she lacks children, it'll be a short reign. Littlefinger, maybe, but that doesn't seem like him. Stannis? No. I can see him swearing fealty to a possible Dany. Jon?

I really don't want house Stark to gain the throne. They need Winterfell back, nothing more.

(On a side note, I find it really funny that the reason Rob bedded Jeyne, and thus inadvertently killed himself, was that his brothers 'died'. The false death of two Starks killed the kingdom. Damn Theon. Of the Starks, only three are dead, really: Ned, Catelyn (well, she's a Tully...), and Rob. Everyone else is fine. Irony!)

[Wippit Guud]

Hmmm...

... Dany and Jon have a kid? That could be a way to get someone decent on the throne... Blood of the Dragon with Old Blood.

[Mr._Blinky]

(On a side note, I find it really funny that the reason Rob bedded Jeyne, and thus inadvertently killed himself, was that his brothers 'died'. The false death of two Starks killed the kingdom. Damn Theon. Of the Starks, only three are dead, really: Ned, Catelyn (well, she's a Tully...), and Rob. Everyone else is fine. Irony!)
Yeah, I love that element as well. Everyone believes that Sansa, who's missing, is the last living Stark except Jon, who's a bastard. Truth is, all but three are actually alive. Fun times.

But anywho, I get the feeling Dany will get the throne, if only for a little while. While he's my favorite character, I doubt Jon will become king, he's just too dedicated at this point. Which leaves two obvious options I can see, likely neither of which will actually happen :smalltongue::

1. Jon dies in the final battle with the Others, after slaughtering massive numbers of them or something equally heroic.
2. Jon survives, and becomes the Lord Commander who brings the Night's Watch back to its former glory.

I did briefly consider the idea of him marrying Dany if she was queen, and being both king and Lord Commander, but then I remembered that pesky little vow of his...

[Wippit Guud]

Jon will most likely get what Stannis offered him eventually - Lord of Winterfell. Arya and Sansa can't have it, Bran won't want it... Rickon will probably end up dead.

[Ishmael]

Well, Arya and Sansa could have it, if Bran and Rickon died.

Jon could marry Dany if he destroyed the Others, thus defeating the purpose of the Night's Watch.

I don't want Jon to marry Dany. As much as I love him, Jon is only so great insofar as he has to suffer. His isolation during AGoT is that which made him so cool. Actually, all of the fringe characters are the best (Jon, Tyrion, Arya, etc.)

[Dr._Weird]

I did briefly consider the idea of him marrying Dany if she was queen, and being both king and Lord Commander, but then I remembered that pesky little vow of his...


You didn't remember Ygritte? Jon's already broken his vow.

[Ishmael]

I think Jon is even the more ardent now that his love was killed, literally. I mean, to break a vow and yet return to duty? I wouldn't be too loose with his breaking the vow, I mean, even Sam did so.

[Mr._Blinky]

You didn't remember Ygritte? Jon's already broken his vow.
No, I remember her fine, but now that he's returned to his duties after his "temptation", and now that he's Lord Commander, he seems even more determined than ever to not break his vow again. He's decided that of the two options, his duty to the Night's Watch is more important.

[Ishmael]

I think Jon has broken more vows than he cares to do. He has suffered so many trials of identity, so many losses, and quit a deal of crises, that he wants to be himself, stable and solitary. He was a member of Ned's court, before he was made to understand he could never fit in (I could not like Catelyn much knowing how she treated Jon...even if it was slightly with reason). He thought himself a Ranger, before he was made a Steward. He was a man of the Night's Watch, before he killed Quorin. And, then, he swore and oath to the Wildlings, and broke that.

I don't think he wants to break any more oaths. He wants to follow his word, and be himself.

[Wippit Guud]

I don't think he wants to break any more oaths. He wants to follow his word, and be himself.

I've yet to see any character get what they actuaally want.

Well, maybe Dany... she did want dragons...

[Steward]

I've yet to see any character get what they actuaally want.


Well, maybe Dany... she did want dragons...

Er...


And Viserys... he did want to be crowned.

And Sandor... he did want to get Arya to the Crossing in time to see her uncle's... ahem... "bloody wedding" as he put it.




Dany has proved she is just, but fair. I think she's prove to be amazing.

Yeah, she really did a bang-up job with Slaver's Bay. What was it again... two weeks before they all overthrew her appointed leaders and went right back to butchering and slaving? Yeah, that's much better than Stannis or Tommen.

[Ishmael]

Hmm...her acumen needs to be rather reinforced. I never said she was experienced...just potentially good. I think now that she's decided to stay put she's be able to stabilize things...maybe. At least she has the responsibility to stay and try to make things better, even if it is supposed to be a sort of training ride.