Eldritch Claws & Beast Strike questions

[LentilNinja]

I've looked at this combo and been a bit confused by how it all works.

So (random number time) assuming the person who possesses both feats is a Warlock/Monk with fists that deal d28 and EB that deals 7d6, with a STR modifier of +4 and a BAB of 16.

1. How is his damage calculated per hit? Some people have said it'd be EB + Unarmed Strike + EB, others say its Unarmed Strike + EB + Unarmed Strike. I've also heard people ask if he'd get double his STR modifier or not, so its all confusing.

2. Does he need to actually activate the Eldritch Claws to get the extra damage from Beast Strike? If not, does that mean he could Flurry of Blows and get EB damage per hit?

3. If number 2 is a no: Can he activate the claws in the middle of his attacks? Could he do two strikes with his fists and then activate the claws, doing two more strikes and getting the EB damage on the last two?

4. If he has an opponent in a grapple, could he use Grappling Blast in combination with this and get EB damage off as well as the damage discussed in number 1?

I THINK thats all the questions I have..

[TheMooch]

I've looked at this combo and been a bit confused by how it all works.

So (random number time) assuming the person who possesses both feats is a Warlock/Monk with fists that deal d28 and EB that deals 7d6, with a STR modifier of +4 and a BAB of 16.

1. How is his damage calculated per hit? Some people have said it'd be EB + Unarmed Strike + EB, others say its Unarmed Strike + EB + Unarmed Strike. I've also heard people ask if he'd get double his STR modifier or not, so its all confusing.

2. Does he need to actually activate the Eldritch Claws to get the extra damage from Beast Strike? If not, does that mean he could Flurry of Blows and get EB damage per hit?

3. If number 2 is a no: Can he activate the claws in the middle of his attacks? Could he do two strikes with his fists and then activate the claws, doing two more strikes and getting the EB damage on the last two?

4. If he has an opponent in a grapple, could he use Grappling Blast in combination with this and get EB damage off as well as the damage discussed in number 1?


1. When you shape eldritch claws your claw damage is EB+unarmed strike. Then when you use beast strike you get unarmed strike+claw damage which means you now deal unarmed strikex2+EB
2. yes you need to have eldritch claws otherwise you don't have claw damage to add to the strike. However you don't have to attack with them, simply having them lets you add that damage to your unarmed strike which mean you can flurry dealing unarmedx2+EB per hit (see 1)
3. number 2 was yes
4. if you are grappled and have your eldritch claws active and hit them with an unarmed strike you get your damage (see number 1) and then you can activate grappling dealing an extra EB damage.

[Red Fel]

I've looked at this combo and been a bit confused by how it all works.

So (random number time) assuming the person who possesses both feats is a Warlock/Monk with fists that deal d28 and EB that deals 7d6, with a STR modifier of +4 and a BAB of 16.

Oh, math.


1. How is his damage calculated per hit? Some people have said it'd be EB + Unarmed Strike + EB, others say its Unarmed Strike + EB + Unarmed Strike. I've also heard people ask if he'd get double his STR modifier or not, so its all confusing.

Damage, ignoring Str modifiers, on Eldritch Claws is US + EB. Here, that's 2d8+7d6. You get two of them, because they're claw attacks. Damage on your unarmed attacks, because of Beast Strike, is US + claws, or US + US + EB. Here, that's 4d8+7d6. You get your iteratives on your unarmed attacks. Note that you may then also make two claw attacks at -5 penalty.


2. Does he need to actually activate the Eldritch Claws to get the extra damage from Beast Strike? If not, does that mean he could Flurry of Blows and get EB damage per hit?

Yes. Beast Strike requires you to have a claw or slam attack. When you activate EC, you have a claw attack; when it isn't active, you don't.

Note the language in Eldritch Claws: "A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows." At the very least, this means you cannot use the claw attacks in your Flurry. In theory, you can still add the claw damage via Beast Strike, but that's debated.


3. If number 2 is a no: Can he activate the claws in the middle of his attacks? Could he do two strikes with his fists and then activate the claws, doing two more strikes and getting the EB damage on the last two?

You can technically perform a free action anytime, including in the middle of your full attack. It strikes me as rather silly to do, however.

Additionally, if your table determines that EC cannot be used with Flurry, triggering it in the middle of the attack won't work either.


4. If he has an opponent in a grapple, could he use Grappling Blast in combination with this and get EB damage off as well as the damage discussed in number 1?

No. Eldritch Claws contains the following language: "You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist." Grappling Blast contains the following language: "You may not add any blast shape invocations to your eldritch blast when using it in this manner."

Now, by RAW, Eldritch Claws is not a blast shape invocation, but a feat. Further, the use of EB in Grappling Blast is not technically "your normal eldritch blast ability". That said, the intent is fairly clear: You can't blast while your Claws are out, and you can't shape your blasts (i.e. into claws) when using Grappling Blast. The two are mutually exclusive.

That said, you don't need Grappling Blast. It's redundant. It allows you to deal EB damage in a grapple, and gives a bonus to maintaining the grapple based on your damage. But Beast Strike gives you the first advantage already: "When you make an unarmed strike or grapple check to deal damage, you may add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed trike or grapple damage." (Emphasis added.) There is no need to take Grappling Blast unless you really want that circumstance bonus.

[LentilNinja]

So if you get Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike + EB, do you add your STR modifier twice?

[Red Fel]

So if you get Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike + EB, do you add your STR modifier twice?

I would argue that you only add it once per hit - the Str modifier isn't part of the unarmed strike damage, but rather results from an unarmed strike being treated as a main hand weapon (for Monks). Here's a relevant excerpt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#strengthBonus):
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result.

. . .

When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.

And another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike):
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Thus, your Str modifier is added after the relevant damage, because the entire attack - a single hit that deals 2US + EB damage - is treated as a main-hand weapon.

[Snowbluff]

Red Fel, I don't think you can use your Claws as secondaries after activating Beast Strike... wait, you can. I'm thinking of EB.

By the way, Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws work with Aptitude weapon. 9d6+2d8 bow damage? :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, I don't think you can use your Claws as secondaries after activating Beast Strike... wait, you can. I'm thinking of EB.

By the way, Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws work with Aptitude weapon. 9d6+2d8 bow damage? :smallsmile:

Right, you can't use EB proper after activating EC, but you can always use claws as secondaries after using unarmed primary attacks.

Also - I can't believe I forgot that trick. It's obscene and evil and delicious. OP, keep that thought in mind - a weapon with the Aptitude enhancement can take any feat specific to a given weapon (e.g. unarmed strikes) and apply them to that weapon. So, yeah, you could take that 1/round Eldritch Blast and turn it into a series of iterative attacks with a bow. Or a longsword. Or, really, any weapon you could wield.

Of course, your DM would likely throw books at you for suggesting that shaping eldritch energies into claws somehow makes you an amazingly good shot, but that's RAW for you. Perfectly logical and well-reasoned in every way.

[LentilNinja]

By the way, Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws work with Aptitude weapon. 9d6+2d8 bow damage? :smallsmile:

Would this include the Weapon's damage too?

[Snowbluff]

I should get credit for this one. I made a thread a bit ago.

Would this include the Weapon's damage too?

That's the 2d8. You count the weapon's damage twice. :smallwink:

[LentilNinja]

I should get credit for this one. I made a thread a bit ago.


That's the 2d8. You count the weapon's damage twice. :smallwink:

So this is a 2 feat alternative to Hideous Blow. I love it.

[Snowbluff]

So this is a 2 feat alternative to Hideous Blow. I love it.

Well, it requires Improved Unarmed Strike. Still, it's significantly better for several reasons. Hideous Blow is pretty bad, and I only have one character who uses it.

[Red Fel]

Would this include the Weapon's damage too?

Well, here's how an Aptitude weapon works. Aptitude is an enhancement that can be added to a weapon, that basically allows that weapon to qualify as another weapon for the purposes of a weapon-specific feat. For example, say you have Weapon Focus (Greatsword), and an Aptitude Longsword. You can apply Weapon Focus to your Longsword, treating it as a Greatsword for the purpose of your Weapon Focus feat. This was likely designed to apply only to feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the like, but by its wording it applies to any feat specific to a single weapon.

Let's look at Eldritch Claws. Basically, you would take the weapon in question and replace each instance of "unarmed strike" with the name of the weapon. Let's use the example of a Longbow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbow). Now, a Longbow, on its own, deals 1d8 piercing. Eldritch Claws says that our Eldritch Claws, on hit, deal damage equal to [Unarmed Strike] + Eldritch Blast. We replace [Unarmed Strike] with [Longbow], and now they deal 1d8 + EB. But they're still claws, we can't use them at range.

Well, now we look at Beast Strike, again performing the "unarmed strike" substitution. Beast Strike says that when you make an [Unarmed Strike], you can add your claw damage. Once again, we replace [Unarmed Strike] with [Longbow] (grammatically, it gets a bit funky). Now, when we make an attack with the Longbow, we add our claw damage - which, as we discussed, is 1d8 + EB - to our existing Longbow damage, 1d8. Thus, our iterative attacks with a Longbow deal 2d8 + EB. Note, however, that you don't get to add Str bonus to a bow unless it's composite.

In other words, your Eldritch Blast is ordinarily a ranged touch attack that you can perform once per round. This trick turns it into a ranged attack (not touch) that can be performed with iterative attacks, and adds 2d8 (and other weapon enhancements) on top of it.

It will also have books thrown at you. On the plus side, you can totally blame Snowbluff. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Thanks you Redfel. I would have explained it the same way. Search and replace, Dawizard-style.

On the plus side, you can totally blame Snowbluff. :smallbiggrin:
Oh, ja. :smallbiggrin:

[Shinken]

Can't believe Snowbluff is tainting the melee warlock with Aptitude abuse. You can't get less elegant than Aptitude abuse. It's up there with drown healing.

[Snowbluff]

Can't believe Snowbluff is tainting the melee warlock with Aptitude abuse. You can't get less elegant than Aptitude abuse. It's up there with drown healing.

Man, I am all about the [Descriptors]. Open compatibility is one of the thinks I like about 3.5, and one of the things I miss while playing PF. I don't consider it inelegant, but I can see why it's an issue.

If it makes you feel any better, I left it out of the Zombified Warlock Handbook. :smallsmile:

PS: I like that word. "Elegant." *drools*

[Shinken]

If it makes you feel any better, I left it out of the Zombified Warlock Handbook. :smallsmile:
It does. :smallsmile:


PS: I like that word. "Elegant." *drools*
It's an Iron Chef itP thing.

[WhamBamSam]

Can't believe Snowbluff is tainting the melee warlock with Aptitude abuse. You can't get less elegant than Aptitude abuse. It's up there with drown healing.Does it get any better if you just slip in a level of Warblade to be able to do it with a class feature? It'd certainly save you some item dependence penalties in Iron Chef. Though Dragon Magazine material like Beast Claws would be banned there anyway.

[DarkSonic1337]

The aptitude property works because it changes the weapon to match the feat, while the warblade class feature doesn't work because it tries to match the feat to the weapon. The warblade feature lets you change the weapon name in the feat itself (like changing Weapon Focus: Longsword to Weapon Focus: Greatsword),however it wouldn't affect beast strike as there's no weapon name in the name of the feat.

[WhamBamSam]

Well you should be able to change any feat that applies to a single type of weapon with Warblade Weapon Aptitude. I guess the fact that Beast Claws specifies both unarmed strikes and claws squashes that, but something like Lightning Mace wouldn't be a problem. If the class feature said "applies to a specific weapon" instead of "applies only to a single weapon" it would work. So upon further reading, I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.

[DarkSonic1337]

Upon reading the Warblade ability again, I guess I should retract my statement. The warblade ability says this


you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus).

But what designated weapon means is well...never explained. I took it to mean whatever weapon you designated for the feat (implying that it's a feat that requires you to chose a weapon), but it COULD mean whatever weapon the feat specifies in its text.

Under the first interpretation, beast claws would not be an eligible target as you never designate a weapon for it. However, the second interpretation would allow you to change the weapon designated by the feat from unarmed strike to whatever you wanted.

But as you mentioned in your last statement it falls short because "claws" are not a single weapon. I'd let it work anyway because I think that's dumb but that's just meant.

[Shinken]

Designated weapon is explained in the very next paragraph. It's when you take Weapon Focus: shortsword, Aptitude allows you to change it to Weapon Focus: whatever else.
The aptitude weapon quality is clearly intended to work the exact same way, but someone forgot to cut and paste a paragraph.

[Skyrender]

Strange additional level of this idea to contemplate: what's the damage for a character with eldritch claws and beast strike who already has claws, prior to activating eldritch claws?

I enjoy thinking of a draconic human warlock 4/battledancer 2 (from the Dragon Compendium). This character is ECL7 (or 6, if you're lucky enough that your DM allows LA buyoff), but his punches and kicks already do 2d6+2d3 physical damage + 2d6 untyped energy damage, he gets his Charisma bonus to unarmored AC, and can dual-wield unarmed strikes! By level 9, you can have improved two-weapon fighting, for up to four attacks (five if you've got haste, or six if you grabbed snap kick), each doing 2d6+2d3 physical damage +4d6 untyped energy damage.

Drool, drool, drool...

[Necroticplague]

Havce you tried reading the feats themselves, instead of people's second-hand accounts of how they interact? The feats are remarkably clear on most of these.

1. How is his damage calculated per hit? Some people have said it'd be EB + Unarmed Strike + EB, others say its Unarmed Strike + EB + Unarmed Strike.
It's not confusing, and it depends on which weapon you use. UAS does it's own damage. Beast Claws let's you add your claw damage to UAS. Eldritch Claws' Claws do EB+UAS damage. So, with these two combined, you do UAS+EB+UAS. And STR mod only applies once. Your Claw damage is unaffected by Beast Strike.


I've also heard people ask if he'd get double his STR modifier or not, so its all confusing. Not really. Look at the entry for "greatsword". Note that it says "2d6", not "2d6+1.5*STR mod" Same deal here. Your Claws do EB+UAS damage, not EB+UAS+STR damage. So you just add that to your UAS damage, then apply your STR mod to this combination. Or, in summary, you only add STR once, barring other feats.


2. Does he need to actually activate the Eldritch Claws to get the extra damage from Beast Strike?
Um, duh, yes? I mean, if your Claws aren't activated, then you don't have anything Beast Strike can add to your UAS damage. Heck, you actually lose the Beast Strike feat when your claws aren't active, since you no longer have the prerequisite (one of which is having claws or slams).


If not, does that mean he could Flurry of Blows and get EB damage per hit?
You can do this, despite the fact the answer is 'yes'. After all, while you can't flurry with your Claws, you can flurry with your Unarmed Strikes, which simply have your Claw damage added to them (if you have Beast Strike).


3. If number 2 is a no: Can he activate the claws in the middle of his attacks? Yes. Free actions can occur in the middle of other actions.



Could he do two strikes with his fists and then activate the claws, doing two more strikes and getting the EB damage on the last two? Er, why not just activate Eldritch Claws at the beginning, so that you can get your Claw damage added to your UAS damage, then follow up with your Claws themselves?


4. If he has an opponent in a grapple, could he use Grappling Blast in combination with this and get EB damage off as well as the damage discussed in number 1?
No, very obviously.

Whenever you make a successful grapple check to deal damage, you may also discharge your eldritch blast against the foe you're grappling. You also gain a circumstance bonus on your next grapple check made within the next round equal to half the damage you deal with your eldritch blast. You may not add any blast shape invocations to your eldritch blast when using it in this manner. So Grappling Blast is using your normal Eldritch Blast.

Once you form your eldritch claws they remain until just before the beginning of your next turn. You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist. A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows. Which Eldritch Claws specifically doesn't allow.

[Buufreak]

text

That's a lot of explanation for a going on 4 year old thread :P

[Necroticplague]

That's a lot of explanation for a going on 4 year old thread :P

.....how did this end up on first page if it's 4 years old?

EDIT: oh yeah, dude above me necro'd.

[Buufreak]

.....how did this end up on first page if it's 4 years old?

EDIT: oh yeah, dude above me necro'd.

Its been happening tons lately. Some might even say its a... Plague... Of necro'ing...

I'll see myself out.