Questions about Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior.

[heavyfuel]

So, I have a few questions about the Combat Rhythm:

Can it be used in conjunction with a Trip attack? What about a Disarm attack? In either case, does this attack count towards the number of touch attacks that hit? If you have Improved Trip, does the extra attack from a successful trip count towards the number of touch attacks that hit?

If you have sneak attack and ambush feats, can you use the ambush feats even if you don't deal the damage from SA? The language of the Craven feat seem to imply that you can still deal the Craven damage; is this correct?

[heavyfuel]

No one? Oh well... Bump.

[Red Fel]

So, I have a few questions about the Combat Rhythm:

Can it be used in conjunction with a Trip attack? What about a Disarm attack? In either case, does this attack count towards the number of touch attacks that hit? If you have Improved Trip, does the extra attack from a successful trip count towards the number of touch attacks that hit?

Generally, no. A trip attempt is a distinct form of combat action. Combat Rhythm, by contrast, involves performing a touch attack (or series of touch attacks) in place of normal melee attacks. A trip attempt is not a normal melee attack, and thus you can't use it while using Combat Rhythm.


If you have sneak attack and ambush feats, can you use the ambush feats even if you don't deal the damage from SA? The language of the Craven feat seem to imply that you can still deal the Craven damage; is this correct?

That's... Complicated. It depends on how you define Sneak Attack. If you define Sneak Attack as "the bonus damage dealt by a character with the Sneak Attack feature when their target is denied his Dex bonus to AC," then an SA that deals no damage cannot trigger Ambush feats, because it is not an SA. If, on the other hand, you define Sneak Attack as "an attack performed by a character with the Sneak Attack feature against a target denied his Dex bonus to AC," then you perform an SA regardless of whether you trigger damage, and can therefore use an Ambush feat.

I note, however, two things. First, the feat prerequisites. Ambush feats generally require a certain amount of SA damage. It can be argued that, when you are not delivering SA damage, you do not meet this prerequisite. (Although that argument is tenuous.)

Second, note that Ambush feats reduce your SA damage. For example, Persistent Attacker reduces SA damage by 4d6. Well, if you're dealing 0 damage with SA, how are you going to reduce that further? It can be argued that because you cannot reduce your SA damage, you cannot pay the "cost" of the feat, and therefore cannot use it. Again, a tenuous argument.

I'd say it boils down to "ask your DM" territory.

[heavyfuel]

I rather dislike the "ask your DM" part of the deal because most of the time, I'm the DM. Oh well :smallbiggrin:

Anyway... It actually makes sense that a trip attack isn't a "normal melee attack" and the SA damage should't be able to be reduced if you're not dealing the damage in the first place. So that's how I'm ruling (for now, though I reserve the right to change my mind in case a better argument is presented)

On a sidenote, another question has been raised in my mind. Can you use regular attack and combat rhythm attacks interchangeably? Like, with four attacks you go Disarm, Trip, Touch, Touch for up to +10 next round?

[DarkSonic1337]

The answer to your side note is yes. Combat Rhythm allows you to replace normal melee touch attacks with it's melee touch attacks. It's really no different from the other "replace normal melee attack" actions like trip or disarm.

Also note that anything that only requires you to hit (not deal damage) will still trigger on combat rhythm. So weapon special abilities like dispelling or weakening will still trigger.

[heavyfuel]

The answer to your side note is yes. Combat Rhythm allows you to replace normal melee touch attacks with it's melee touch attacks. It's really no different from the other "replace normal melee attack" actions like trip or disarm.

Also note that anything that only requires you to hit (not deal damage) will still trigger on combat rhythm. So weapon special abilities like dispelling or weakening will still trigger.

Thanks!

And that's a neat observation. I'll definitely have to use this for evil :smallamused:. Where can I find this "weakening" enhancement?

[Thiyr]

The answer to your side note is yes. Combat Rhythm allows you to replace normal melee touch attacks with it's melee touch attacks. It's really no different from the other "replace normal melee attack" actions like trip or disarm.

Also note that anything that only requires you to hit (not deal damage) will still trigger on combat rhythm. So weapon special abilities like dispelling or weakening will still trigger.

I personally prefer combining it with Knockback and Dungeoncrasher. Power attack for everything. Knockback just requires you to hit while using power attack, so you lightly tap someone for no damage, at which point they go flying backwards into a wall to take massive damage. Next round, if they're in a position you can't hit them into a wall? just whack them in the -face- for massive damage. Makes TWF dungeoncrashers kinda hilarious (because dual-wielding kusari-gama makes it even better. You're basically Kratos at that point.)

[Red Fel]

I don't think you can choose which of your attacks are Combat Rhythm and which are normal. The precise language of the Combat Rhythm option includes: "To use this option, you can choose to make melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks against an opponent." Note that the option above, Channel the Storm, says "you must choose to refrain from making one or more available attacks of opportunity[,]" which suggests that you may choose how many AoOs you waive, whereas Combat Rhythm does not include a "one or more" qualifier.

It suggests to me that it's more all-or-nothing; you either make normal melee attacks or you make melee touch attacks that deal no damage. Again, however, that's a matter of interpretation and DM discretion.

[DarkSonic1337]

Well it doesn't say that "you can choose to make melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks against an opponent for the round," or anything similar.

Where does the all or nothing approach stop? Does it last until your next round? Until the end of your turn? Until the end of whatever action you used to attack? If you get an attack of opportunity during the middle of your attack action, do you have to combat rhythm there too? I think it's a much less cumbersome interpretation to simply treat it like already existing effects that replace attacks. It's even worded similarly to trip/disarm/sunder (which say "as a melee attack" do X).

[Vogonjeltz]

Where does the all or nothing approach stop? Does it last until your next round? Until the end of your turn? Until the end of whatever action you used to attack? If you get an attack of opportunity during the middle of your attack action, do you have to combat rhythm there too? I think it's a much less cumbersome interpretation to simply treat it like already existing effects that replace attacks. It's even worded similarly to trip/disarm/sunder (which say "as a melee attack" do X).

Well, I'd say it's a once a round (on your turn) choice, just like power attack and combat expertise. Like them it's limited to a subset of attacks, in this case normal melee attacks (iteratives). So it won't apply to attacks of opportunity, natural weapons, and other 'bonus' attacks (snap kick, for example).

It's unfortunate that ToB is so riddled with text that is poorly worded and leads to confusion.

[heavyfuel]

Well, I'd say it's a once a round (on your turn) choice, just like power attack and combat expertise. Like them it's limited to a subset of attacks, in this case normal melee attacks (iteratives). So it won't apply to attacks of opportunity, natural weapons, and other 'bonus' attacks (snap kick, for example).

It's unfortunate that ToB is so riddled with text that is poorly worded and leads to confusion.

Power Attack and Combat Expertise penalties and bonuses apply until your next turn, so they do apply to things like AoO and Snap Kick.

Also, the laguage used in Combat Rhythm never specifies that all attacks must be touch attacks. It just says "choose to make touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks". The RAW seems to be that not only you can choose which attacks to use this with, but also that you can use AoOs and Snap Kick to further boost the number of touch attacks made.