Chameleons and Heretic of the Faith

[Promises Kept]

So, in the building of my latest abomination (Err... epic gestalt character, that is), I found an amusing little combo for Cleric/Chameleons, and I was wondering if anyone else reads it the way I do. The Chameleon, at second level, gains a bonus feat, which can be changed daily to any feat for which he meets the prerequisites. The Heretic of the Faith feat (Power of Faerun, p.46) has several effects, but most notably, allows a Cleric who takes it to change out one of their Domains for any Domain at all, so long as they can justify it with fluff. So... if you take Heretic of the Faith with your Chameleon Bonus Feat, does the Domain stay changed? Does it revert back to what it was? Do you lose it entirely? For that matter, I suppose one could argue that you'd lose divine spellcasting entirely, since you lose the protection the feat grants against breaking your deity's Code of Conduct. Regardless, the idea of a cleric with no idea what he believes in, flitting from heresy to heresy every couple of days, but apparently being tolerated regardless, really just tickles my fancy. Anyone ever had this come up in play?

[Vaz]

Taking the feat then losing it means you no longer gain benefits from it. Yes, this includes your new domain. You'd revert back to your previous one, although your god may look at your Heresy with disdain. They have their domains for their own reasonings. You'd also lose the ability to up to 2 alignment changes away from your god, which would mean that a TN cleric with a CG god would no longer be able to benefit from it.


However, you are in no way exempt from excommunication, or immune to divine retribution from your deity or his servants. In fact your actions invite the highest levels of scrutiny. If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have with another domain outside those normally availiable to your faith. The new domain must be consistant with the tenents of your heresy (as adjudicated by th DM). Likewise you can exchange your favored weapon and weapon of the deity (Mag) spell effect for another consistant with the tenents of your heresy (as adjudicated by the DM).

Everything about the feat, with the exception of the alignment or need to atone is due to DM discretion. This means that the DM roleplaying as the god in this instance might just get, as you said, a bit annoyed, and cause you to lose access to Divine Casting until you recieve an atonement from a person of authority (Cleric 9 of the appropriate faith).

In a "RAW" TO, yeah, it's kind of cool. It would really fit with something like something like Ghaunadaur, being able to change your Domains to fit in with priesthoods, and the Chameleon tricks you can come up with.

[Vortenger]

Your DM allows Chameleon on one side of a gestalt? Lucky. I've tried this with a few DM's and each has cried foul at the no-combination-class-clause gestalt imposes. Kudos!

[Renen]

Your DM allows Chameleon on one side of a gestalt? Lucky. I've tried this with a few DM's and each has cried foul at the no-combination-class-clause gestalt imposes. Kudos!

Sorry i dont get it. They didnt like it WHY?

[Promises Kept]

Taking the feat then losing it means you no longer gain benefits from it. Yes, this includes your new domain. You'd revert back to your previous one, although your god may look at your Heresy with disdain. They have their domains for their own reasonings. You'd also lose the ability to up to 2 alignment changes away from your god, which would mean that a TN cleric with a CG god would no longer be able to benefit from it.



Everything about the feat, with the exception of the alignment or need to atone is due to DM discretion. This means that the DM roleplaying as the god in this instance might just get, as you said, a bit annoyed, and cause you to lose access to Divine Casting until you recieve an atonement from a person of authority (Cleric 9 of the appropriate faith).

In a "RAW" TO, yeah, it's kind of cool. It would really fit with something like something like Ghaunadaur, being able to change your Domains to fit in with priesthoods, and the Chameleon tricks you can come up with.

Eh, fair enough. That's probably how I'd rule it if a player brought it up with me, actually. My reasoning was based on the wording, "you can exchange any one domain you have already selected for another domain outside those normally available to your faith." I think there's an argument to be made that that's an ability granted to you by the feat, and not strictly something you have to retain the feat for, similar to taking an Item Creation Feat and making a magic item with it. The item doesn't vanish when the feat does; similarly, the change would remain made. That is, however, extremely tenuous, I grant.

[Jack_Simth]

Sorry i dont get it. They didnt like it WHY?
As part of the Gestalt Definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) you have:
A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.(emphasis added)

[Vaz]

Eh, fair enough. That's probably how I'd rule it if a player brought it up with me, actually. My reasoning was based on the wording, "you can exchange any one domain you have already selected for another domain outside those normally available to your faith." I think there's an argument to be made that that's an ability granted to you by the feat, and not strictly something you have to retain the feat for, similar to taking an Item Creation Feat and making a magic item with it. The item doesn't vanish when the feat does; similarly, the change would remain made. That is, however, extremely tenuous, I grant.

If that was how it works -

You are a Cleric of Bahamut (Air/Cold Domains) 5/Chameleon 2.
Pick up Heretic of the Faith as the bonus feat, swapping Air Domain for Animal, and trading Heavy Pick/Scimitar/Claw for Spiked Chain as the weapon, and can become CG/TN/LE (the latter, I find hilarious, honestly).
Lose Heretic of the Faith the next day. Bahamut doesn't grant Animal Domain, so cannot grant spells from it, you do not get Air Domain back, and you would also lose access to spells from Bahamut because of different alignment should you have changed.

As you can see, not helpful. Picking up an item creation feat, and then crafting an item is different. You must maintain that bonus feat for the duration of crafting process. After then, losing the feat is irrelevant. The created stuff is independent of the feat, whereas having the ability to cast spells not on your domain or class list and having access to a domain not on the class list is a requisite that is met by the feat ONLY.

[Renen]

As part of the Gestalt Definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) you have: (emphasis added)

All (or is there one different) listed provide dual progression. But Chameleon isnt a dual progression class, and hardly combines things...

[ArqArturo]

I guess you could do this with a trickster god... Or also Odin, if you use Deities & Demigods.

[Vortenger]

Based on the the class abilities and and the flavor of the chameleon, it reads as a combination of all classes, that is rather its purpose. How do you suppose that it is not dual progression? Is arcane focus paired with divine focus something the player is vowinvg to forswear? That was what i kept hearing at any rate. Ymmv.

[Red Fel]

Based on the the class abilities and and the flavor of the chameleon, it reads as a combination of all classes, that is rather its purpose. How do you suppose that it is not dual progression? Is arcane focus paired with divine focus something the player is vowinvg to forswear? That was what i kept hearing at any rate. Ymmv.

Actually, I could see the argument that it's not dual progression. If it is, you could just as easily argue that Factotum is as well - it combines many class features.

A dual progression class, by its most basic definition, advances the features of two or more classes. For example, Jade Phoenix Mage advances a martial adept's maneuver progression, and also advances existing spellcasting progression; Arcane Trickster advances Sneak Attack, and also advances existing spellcasting. Those kinds of classes are dual progression classes.

Chameleon... By a technical interpretation, Chameleon is a non-progression class. It advances nothing other than itself. Nothing in its class description or ability explanations references existing class levels or progressions. If you take Arcane Focus, for example, your levels do not stack with existing arcane spellcasting levels; same with Divine Focus. If you have levels in Barbarian, Chameleon's Mimic Class Feature doesn't progress your Rage, it simply adds a separate and distinct source of Rage. Same with Paladins and Smite. Chameleon doesn't actually progress anything.

[Renen]

Exactly my point. I think the dual progression classes were not allowed in gestalt to stop people from having stuff like 9 arcane/9 divine/9 psionics courtesy of dual progression classes.

[Vortenger]

I personally agree with you, but some do not. As I said, ymmv.

[Vaz]

Actually, I could see the argument that it's not dual progression. If it is, you could just as easily argue that Factotum is as well - it combines many class features.
Yes, but it specifies prestige classes.

It makes no mentions of dual progressions, but specifies class combinations. This is such a nebulous term, that most take it to mean Dual Advancement, but it encompasses pretty much every PrC out there that has some combination of Cleric+ BAB/6+ Skill Points/Casting/Festing/Initiator/Binding/Shadowcrafting/Truenaming/Meldshaping/Sneak Attack/Turn Undead/Sudden Strike/Skrimish/Wild Shape/Invocations/any other hitherto forgotten Base class feature that is granted by a PrC.