Saw somebody mention that Tippy's shown that op.psion > op.wizard. Someone elaborate?

[AnonymousPepper]

Like, either a link to where Tippy proved this, or just an explanation as to why would be appreciated.

I'm willing to buy it, but I'm a little skeptical due to the much smaller amount of splatbooks expanding the psionic power list compared to books expanding the sor/wiz list.

[Segrain]

Quoted from, probably, the same thread where you seen it being mentioned.

A Psion can end up knowing every single Psionic Power in the game along with every single Arcane spell and every single Divine spell with those arcane and divine spells being cast without material components or foci (and all also auto stilled and silent as well).

Then you have the various ways to get infinite power points, the Psion ability to shatter the action economy to the greatest extent of any class in the game, and all of the other small things that make the Psion even better.

Wizard is widely held to be the most powerful class simply because it has the best spell list in the game, well a Psion gets to take that spell list and the Cleric spell list and the Druid spell list, etc. and cast them all more spontaneously than a Sorcerer can cast his spells.

[Theobod]

Its not that a psion per se is stronger. but that a particular psionic class, the erudite, when given its stated variance: spell to power, allows it to know not only every power but also every spell.... and sponta cast them like psion

[Talentless]

Like, either a link to where Tippy proved this, or just an explanation as to why would be appreciated.

I'm willing to buy it, but I'm a little skeptical due to the much smaller amount of splatbooks expanding the psionic power list compared to books expanding the sor/wiz list.

Don't have a link, but my understanding is it essentially boils down to a Psion taking advantage of money to buy Spells as Powers from a StP Erudite, giving all the utility and power of an at-will Wizard, with the versatility of PP and PP regen tricks.

[Flickerdart]

Its not that a psion per se is stronger. but that a particular psionic class, the erudite, when given its stated variance: spell to power, allows it to know not only every power but also every spell.... and sponta cast them like psion
Nah, there's another step. The erudite has a rubbish way of manifesting (with its UPD thing), and while there are ways of getting around it, plain psion is just better. A psion can use a network of erudites to acquire the best spells as powers, and then learn those powers through Psychcic Chirurgery.

[Nettlekid]

Because the Erudite exists, you can convert all arcane spells into powers, and you can manage to get divine spells too by use of Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, or arguably Geomancer.

Once all spells exist as powers, you can use Psychic Chirurgery to implant them into the mind of any Psion capable of manifesting them.

Now you have all spells, all powers, usable without preparation, and readily rechargeable through any PP restoration method.

That's what Tippy says. I'm skeptical of relying on an Epic Erudite existing in a DM's world who will somehow give you all their powers known, even if you want to use an Ice Assassin to copy one on your fast time demiplane before using Fusion/Astral Seed to fuse with it forever, or whatever other default RAW-shaky Tippy plan you want to use.

[jiriku]

Because the Erudite exists, you can convert all arcane spells into powers, and you can manage to get divine spells too by use of Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, or arguably Geomancer.

Once all spells exist as powers, you can use Psychic Chirurgery to implant them into the mind of any Psion capable of manifesting them.

Now you have all spells, all powers, usable without preparation, and readily rechargeable through any PP restoration method.

That's what Tippy says. I'm skeptical of relying on an Epic Erudite existing in a DM's world who will somehow give you all their powers known, even if you want to use an Ice Assassin to copy one on your fast time demiplane before using Fusion/Astral Seed to fuse with it forever, or whatever other default RAW-shaky Tippy plan you want to use.

Yeah. It is an unlikely event by itself. But from the perspective of a persistent game world, it only has to happen once. Heck, if the DM decrees that it hasn't happened yet, an enterprising player can set it up by simply choosing to play as that erudite and be the one to make it happen. From that point onward, the spell-powers would be canonical within the setting, and any PC psion could take advantage of them. Now, the DM could invoke fiat to prevent this, but Tippy's groups encourage player agency, rather than the DM trying to "protect" the setting by keeping it static.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Because the Erudite exists, you can convert all arcane spells into powers, and you can manage to get divine spells too by use of Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, or arguably Geomancer.

Once all spells exist as powers, you can use Psychic Chirurgery to implant them into the mind of any Psion capable of manifesting them.

Now you have all spells, all powers, usable without preparation, and readily rechargeable through any PP restoration method.

That's what Tippy says. I'm skeptical of relying on an Epic Erudite existing in a DM's world who will somehow give you all their powers known, even if you want to use an Ice Assassin to copy one on your fast time demiplane before using Fusion/Astral Seed to fuse with it forever, or whatever other default RAW-shaky Tippy plan you want to use.

You could have settings in which Epic StP-Erudites do not exist, it is true, but the rules (specifically the random community generation rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Epic Level Handbook) provide both for their existence and for paying them to manifest powers on one's own behalf, and at that point, it only has to happen once for a Psion to have all the Arcane and Divine Spells ever printed Spell-to-Powerified and Psychic Chirurgeried into their head. It may take a bit of work to pull off, but Psions (and StP-Erudites) are more than capable of performing such work, with the abilities native to their class. So in general, it may be assumed that such things exist, unless house-rules establish otherwise.

Where that becomes RAW-shaky, I'm not sure. Which is true of everything I know of Tippy's stuff, as far as I can recall.

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah. It is an unlikely event by itself. But from the perspective of a persistent game world, it only has to happen once. Heck, if the DM decrees that it hasn't happened yet, an enterprising player can set it up by simply choosing to play as that erudite and be the one to make it happen. From that point onward, the spell-powers would be canonical within the setting, and any PC psion could take advantage of them. Now, the DM could invoke fiat to prevent this, but Tippy's groups encourage player agency, rather than the DM trying to "protect" the setting by keeping it static.

Don't forget that the Psion can then themselves start Chirurgerying the spell-powers onto other Psions, and so on.

...I, for one, welcome our new Psion overlords.

[AMFV]

His method actually involves the magic mantle, and reading "Treats Magic Identically to Psionics" as able to learn spells as well as Psionic Powers if they have that mantle. Which I think is a very stretched reading at the least. But that's his reading on that section of text.

[jiriku]

Where that becomes RAW-shaky, I'm not sure. Which is true of everything I know of Tippy's stuff, as far as I can recall.

To be fair, about half of the DMs I've gamed with would disallow most of Tippy's tricks by reflex as soon as they were mentioned. And about half of the remainder wouldn't allow them because they'd be unable to follow the intricacies of the rules interactions well enough to understand why his tricks work. Now, my experiences are a test pool with a sample size of one so YMMV, but anything that's a non-starter at 3/4 of your available gaming tables certainly qualifies as "shaky", even if you agree with his rules intepretations.

[Graypairofsocks]

That's what Tippy says. I'm skeptical of relying on an Epic Erudite existing in a DM's world who will somehow give you all their powers known, even if you want to use an Ice Assassin to copy one on your fast time demiplane before using Fusion/Astral Seed to fuse with it forever, or whatever other default RAW-shaky Tippy plan you want to use.

Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) can help with this.

[Vaz]

Step 1. Wyrm Wizard makes all Divine Spells become Arcane with the aid of Psychic Reformation.
Step 2. Spell to Power Erudite makes all Arcane spells become Psionic Powers.
Step 3. Psion at ECL18 picks up Expanded Knowledge (Embrace the Dark Chaos), and a Power Stone of Shun the Dark Chaos, which they use with the temporary Alertness feat of the Psicrystal to gain Expanded Knowledge Shun the Dark Chaos.
Step 3-point-5. If the DM reads that Linked Power bypasses the XP-cost, proceed to knock yourself out. Failing that, pick up a Thought Bottle.
Step 4. Use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to gain every 8th level spell or under.
Step 5. Locate an Epic level Spell to Power Erudite (or Epic Psion who has already done so) to gain 9th level powers by Psychic Chirurgeory.
Step 6. Enjoy.

To get 9th level powers, you need either to do the above (which works for any Manifester with 9th level powers - it's just that Intelligence benefits more for Skill Points so that they have the innate knowledge to do it in game), or be an Ardent using the above Stages 1 and 2, and then using the Substitute Powers Mantle

There are other builds which benefit more though - Ardent with Dominant Time Mantle and using the Dark Chaos Shuffle to pick up Arbitrary high amounts of PP with the Psionic Talent feat, and then using that to generate Arbitrary amounts of Actions in a single turn with Linked Power Synchronicity-Synchronicity followed up by PP recharge system via Linked Power Synchronicity-Bestow Power. It also has the benefit of being Wis based, so you can get fantastic Will Saves.

Alternatively, an ECL1 Outsider (Neraph, or LA bought off Planetouched) Wilder can take the form of a Visilight with Metamorphic Transfer and gain Arbitrary high Charisma to boost their DC's to unbeatable amounts.

[dextercorvia]

Step1 can be accomplished by a suitably optimized Chameleon without spending XP on Psychic Reformation. (Needs a level of Arcane and Divine non chameleon casting, Alternative Source Spell, a source for higher level spell slots, and using his floating feat to learn new arcane spells off other lists.) It works with Archivist for just the divine ones, but a chameleon cohort is nice because he can give the StP Erudite everything.

[Emperor Tippy]

His method actually involves the magic mantle, and reading "Treats Magic Identically to Psionics" as able to learn spells as well as Psionic Powers if they have that mantle. Which I think is a very stretched reading at the least. But that's his reading on that section of text.
No, its not. Seriously, where are you getting that idea because I can't think of any time that I've said anything similar to that.

The magic mantle allows for some weird stuff but it doesn't let you just learn spells.

[Vaz]

Step1 can be accomplished by a suitably optimized Chameleon without spending XP on Psychic Reformation. (Needs a level of Arcane and Divine non chameleon casting, Alternative Source Spell, a source for higher level spell slots, and using his floating feat to learn new arcane spells off other lists.) It works with Archivist for just the divine ones, but a chameleon cohort is nice because he can give the StP Erudite everything.

Point taken. But irrelevant. You are the Psion, not the StP Erudite. The only thing the Erudite might do is require you to pay extra for the additional XP he had to spend, or to provide some other cost.

[dextercorvia]

Point taken. But irrelevant. You are the Psion, not the StP Erudite. The only thing the Erudite might do is require you to pay extra for the additional XP he had to spend, or to provide some other cost.

Right but if you have to establish this from the outset, then you take Thrallherd and get the both the StP Erudite and the Chameleon for cohorts.

[Anlashok]

Can't the archivist do something similar to covert arcane to divine and learn all of the by three spell lists?

[Vaz]

Short version: no.

Long version: Nope.

The nearest that an Archivist can achieve is picking up Arcane Spell scrolls scribed by Divine Casters. Wish or Miracle can however let you 'cast' lower level psionic powers via the similar power level clauses

[dextercorvia]

Can't the archivist do something similar to covert arcane to divine and learn all of the by three spell lists?

The Archivist can learn any spell in the game with sufficient effort, but not powers. Psions get easier power point recharge mechanisms. Archivists would have to do some Twin Sanctum Mage's Lucubration shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154237-3-5-How-soon-can-you-get-nines)combined with Versatile Spellcaster to get unlimited casting in the way that a Psion can with less effort.

[Rubik]

His method actually involves the magic mantle, and reading "Treats Magic Identically to Psionics" as able to learn spells as well as Psionic Powers if they have that mantle. Which I think is a very stretched reading at the least. But that's his reading on that section of text.It's awesome how you spout falsehoods gleaned from 3rd parties who had no idea what they were talking about that said stuff they had no backing for, as well as no proof of anything you're saying.

But only if "awesome" is defined as "terrible."

[aleucard]

Is it possible for an Erudite to learn Divine spells without needing PrC's to convert Divine to Arcane available?

[Rubik]

Is it possible for an Erudite to learn Divine spells without needing PrC's to convert Divine to Arcane available?Dragons do it all the time with cleric spells, and the Child of Eberron archetype gives that ability for druid spells.

Also, the Sanctum Spell feat allows for a psion to take 9th level spells as 8th level powers, pre-epic.