Tank Mage

[walfulninja]

Hello everybody! I need some help with a build that has been cooking in my brain. I want to build a wizard/sorcerer that fills the tank role in a party. However, this is not a gish. I want to go straight wizard/sorcerer. This is to prove a point to a friend of mine who beleves the classes should conform to the classic archtypes (healbot cleric, blaster mage etc.) So Ive turned to you guys to see what you can cook up. Good luck everyone!

[Segev]

My first instinct is to tell you to go Psion, actually. If you choose to go this route, you can pick up Vigor as one of your very first powers. Add Inertial Armor and later Force Screen (which start out as equivalent to Mage Armor and Shield, respectively) to gain AC.

Vigor will let you have 5 temp hp for 1 pp every time you use it. At first level, it's just 5 hp per use, but you can recharge it every round if you need to. Your task becomes keeping aggro.

By level 3, you can pick up Share Pain, which you should use on your psicrystal. Then you use the share powers class feature to share Vigor with your psicrystal, thus giving it 5 temp hp per PP at the same time you give yourself 5 hp per PP, for a total of 10 hp/pp between the two of you. Since you're Sharing Pain, it takes half your damage. Even better, Hardness apparently applies to damage shared with Share Pain, so you're netting even more effective temp hp from this combination. At level 3, you can gain 30 hp for 3 pp per manifestation of Vigor.



If you are not willing to go that route, and really want to go sorcerer/wizard, then you'll want to have your wizard utilize Mage Armor and Shield, and to look closely at Mirror Image. Mirror Image is the first miss chance spell you can get, and it will be invaluable to you.

You might go Sorcerer so you can get Simple Weapon Proficiency. This will make you proficient with longspears. Take Improved Trip and True Strike. Ready an action to cast True Strike when somebody provokes an AoO, and then use that to make your trip attack when somebody tries to move into melee or past you. You're "tanking" by keeping at least one guy prone. And, since he's prone, you have a good chance to hit him despite your lousy BAB. (Remember, improved trip gives a follow-up attack.)

Having a bat or other blindsense-capable familiar can help with this latter strategy - even against concealed foes, you know when they provoke an AoO and can True Strike to ignore the miss chance. If you want to create your own trouble in this respect, there's also Obscuring Mist. Beware that this one blocks your allies' line-of-sight, as well, however.

When you have 2nd level spells, Wind Wall will render you immune to most ranged attacks you'll be facing. False Life will help a little, but is not nearly as good for temp hp as (psionic) Vigor, sadly. At higher level, Ironguard will be your friend. It's in Spell Compendium, and makes you immune to damage from metal of any sort.

[Seppo87]

I played succesfully a commoner tank, so a Wizard can do it too.

You need the highest CON you can get. 18 if possible. 20 is better, if you are a dwarf.
Don't underestimate Improved Toughness.
For a d12 class it means an average increase of 15% HP from hit dice.
For you it's 50%

Use your INT to make more damage. Knowledge Devotion and Iaijutsu Focus are your friends. Also, learn as soon as possible Thunderlance. Persist it if possible.

At low levels, use Fists of Stone to become efficient at melee.

As for AC, not being able to wear armor is a problem at low levels.
You might as well bring around an armor and wear it once you finish your spells per day.
Try to have a good DEX anyway.
If possible, be a small race. Whisper Gnome or Strongheart Halfling. Luck of Heroes also can increase your survival chances.

[Red Fel]

Back in one of my earliest campaigns, we had a Wizard who would simply Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) into a Fire Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#fireGiant) or similar.

That's a thing, right? Turning into a big, scary mass of muscle? Or do the kids turn into dragons now?

[Kaeso]

Hello everybody! I need some help with a build that has been cooking in my brain. I want to build a wizard/sorcerer that fills the tank role in a party. However, this is not a gish. I want to go straight wizard/sorcerer. This is to prove a point to a friend of mine who beleves the classes should conform to the classic archtypes (healbot cleric, blaster mage etc.) So Ive turned to you guys to see what you can cook up. Good luck everyone!

Probably not entirely what you're looking for, but a malkonvoker with the right feats can summon a tank who tanks better than most specialized tank classes and still sling spells in spades. Remember, summoning monsters is a perfeclty valid part of a spellcasters arsenal.

For extra fun, take the reserve feat that allows you to summon an elemental without using up a spell slot. It makes a nice scout and a sacrificial lamb for trapfinding.

[Rebel7284]

I also had an Elan Psion as my first thought.

However, getting back to the parameters of the question:
At early levels, use Alter Self/Mirror Image before battle for a high AC bonus/ Miss chance. Then if you are a sorcerer, you can spam Wings of Cover and never be hit.

Later on add Ruin Delver's Forture and Greater Mirror Image.

Heart of Earth gives you DR and Heart of Water gives you Freedom of Movement. Having both gives you light fortification too! You can get full fortification if you have 4 Heart of X spells active.

And of course there is always Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph (+persist)

Enter Incantatrix or Spelldancer to make your spells last all day. Minor Shapeshift gives you loads of temporary HP.

[Sian]

the main issue (just as it is for everyone else, except prehaps Crusader and Knight) is to get the opponent to go at you instead of just going around you

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level range would this need to function at?

I'm going to completely agree that Psion is the way to go here. Make a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) (Heart aspect) Warforged Psion (Shaper) with Adamantine Body, Thick-Skinned (SS), Entangling Exhalation (RotD), and Psicrystal Affinity. Use Share Pain on your Psicrystal and share Vigor with it so you take half damage from all sources, apply your DR 4/Adamantine after the damage is halved, and use the amazingly efficient Psionic Repair Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) (never augment it) to fix yourself. You can even take Heavy Armor Optimization at 9th (with a specific allowance for its prerequisite) to get Deflective Armor as your Psion 10 bonus feat, both in RoS. Being Dragonborn you retain your Living Construct subtype and everything that comes with it, you only lose the default composite plating and light fortification but still benefit from Adamantine Body. Your entangling breath attacks will hinder opponents and present yourself as a very real threat that must be dealt with before they can reach your other party members. Pick up Expanded Knowledge for Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) which can manifest Vigor or Psionic Repair Damage every round, and you can even use Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) (3.0 Psionics Handbook, still valid) with it. Get Midnight Augmentation and use it with Bestow Power so augmenting it costs 1 pp to make it grant an extra 2 pp, so at 6th level you can spend five on it to regain six, and it only gets better from there.


If you want to use an arcane spellcasting class, then you want to be casting Shield and (Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor, but a Wizard or Sorcerer just doesn't have the HP to function as a tank. Maybe make he character a Necropolitan (LM) to get d12 hp/level and say he was made one by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with a dip in Wizard for Enhance Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) and the Corpsecrafter line of feats in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate spell with an evil altar present, to get 1d12+12 hp/level. That will also give him a permanent +4 to Str and Dex, +4 initiative, +10 ft. land speed, +2 natural armor, +2 turn resistance, and +1d6 cold damage on natural attacks. You'll need to be good aligned to be able to cast and benefit from (Greater) Luminous Armor, which may be difficult as an undead character, but luckily sanctified spells don't require an exalted status. Take the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat in CM and gain temporary HP equal to your level every round. Use Death Armor (SC) with Fell Drain from LM and Persistent Spell if possible, as well as Fell Drain Fire Shield twice, so anyone who attacks you will take damage and receive negative levels. Use Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire in CM to get fortification and other benefits, and Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed in Dragon Magic if a Sorcerer to get (Improved) Uncanny Dodge and other benefits. A Sorcerer would need to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor, but is otherwise an ideal choice. Get an Ancestral Relic Runestaff to get around the limited number of spells known, wear a Monk's Belt and take Ascetic Mage to add your Cha bonus to AC, dip Paragnostic Apostle for Mind Over Matter, and get Abjurant Champion as early as possible.

[sleepyphoenixx]

(Greater) Luminous Armor and Faerie Mysteries Initiate (or high Con) already make you a superior tank to most martials. Throw on the various spells that boost AC, DR and temporary HP, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc. and you leave the classic sword & board fighter far in the dust.

Or, you know, just summon/dominate a bunch of Big Stupid Fighter equivalents and save your spell slots for BFC. Walls, Clouds, stun/daze and similar stuff can all fill the "tanking" role in the sense that they prevent damage to your party.

Enemies that can't even try to hit you are preferable over being able to take it.
It's one thing for gishes to go into melee. Not optimal, but a valid playstyle that many people enjoy.

Trying to block melee attacks with your face when you're a primary caster and capable of operating at range (and need concentration checks to cast while threatened unless spending additional resources) is playing against your strengths though. Not impossible or even hard but that's more because casters are just that awesome, not because it's a good idea.

[Gnaeus]

You could go ahead and wear armor.

Level 1: Know shield, but don't memorize it. Scribe a couple of scrolls. Memorize True Strike and Benign Transposition (Verbal only spells have no ASF). Level 1 feats as a human could be still spell (or sudden still may be even better) and Light Armor. Get a chain shirt. Buy a mithral buckler as soon as you can.

Level 3: Medium armor proficiency. Your good spells are Blindness/deafness and Blur (Verbal only spells have no ASF). Make some scrolls of mirror image (or just memorize one if you chose sudden still). False Life lasts for at least 3 hours, so you cast it before you put on your armor. Now you have about as many HP as the fighter, AC within 2 of the fighter (or about tied if you have a wand of shield or protection from evil, which is super cheap), and miss chances better than the fighter.

Level 5: Displacement is verbal only (Verbal only spells have no ASF).

Then, if books allow, be a conjurer and take Abrupt Jaunt at level 1. You can outtank the fighter through all the low levels until you start being able to blow him away with stuff like greater invisibility and polymorph.

[Rubik]

Whether wizard or psion, try becoming undead, either through the necropolitan template or through the death knight template (via a Wish, to get past the "naturally occurring or done by a ritual, not a spell" snag). That'll boost your HD to a d12. Or you could PAO into a non-templated, high-Int undead. If your corpse is used in a Plague of Undead spell, you'll gain max hp for every HD, but you'll need an Awaken Undead or (preferably) a Wish spell cast on you, since it only creates unintelligent undead.

If you're turned in an area with a Desecrated altar, that's +2 hp per HD. If a dread necromancer is involved in turning you undead, that's +2 hp per HD. If a necromancer wizard with this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) is involved, that's an extra +2 hp per HD. (Or better yet, make it a dread necromancer/variant necromancer wizard/ultimate magus or a gestalt dread necromancer//variant necromancer wizard.) If the necromancer has the Corpsecrafter feat, that's an additional +2 hp per HD. Take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat for +Int to hp instead of +Con.

So, if those options are all used (A DN//variant necro casting Plague of Undead and Awaken Undead with Corpsecrafter and everything else), you'll have 12 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 (20) + Int for every HD you have.

Also, a fistful of holy arrows will grant +5 temp hp per arrow, as well, renewable every time you drop them and pick them back up.

Oh, and the Human Heritage feat will make you unturnable, since you count as Humanoid (Human) instead of undead for that purpose. The same goes for Control Undead, Command Undead, and any other spells or effects that specifically affect undead.

Or you could possibly take levels in the ghost savage progression class, buying off each level as you take it at level 3. (For bonus points, pay a DN/variant necro to turn you into a ghost using Wish on a Desecrated altar, etc.) So go, say, psion 3, take all five ghost levels, buying off the single point of LA as you go, and make sure to take the Malevolence ability, so you can subdue and possess some really strong living bodies with little to no cost to yourself. And if your host dies, you can just find another to be getting on with. And all for the cost of 15,000 xp, and since you'll be 4-5 levels lower than the rest of the party, you'll make up that xp deficit REALLY quickly.

[Threadnaught]

Gray Elf, Faerie Mysteries Initiative for Intelligence to Hit Points.

Then at 4th level or higher, become a Necropolitan by hiring a Necromancer Wizard with the Enhanced Undead ACF (any level) and a Dread Necromancer of at least 8th level to take you through the Ritual of Crucimigration at an Altar to Evil in a Fell Energized Desecrated area.

You go from 1d4 + Int HP per HD.
To 1d12 + Int + 6 + 2 + 2 HP per HD.

[Rubik]

Gray Elf, Faerie Mysteries Initiative for Intelligence to Hit Points.

Then at 4th level or higher, become a Necropolitan by hiring a Necromancer Wizard with the Enhanced Undead ACF (any level) and a Dread Necromancer of at least 8th level to take you through the Ritual of Crucimigration at an Altar to Evil in a Fell Energized Desecrated area.

You go from 1d4 + Int HP per HD.
To 1d12 + Int + 6 + 2 + 2 HP per HD.I believe I ninja'd you by an hour and eight minutes, though you did add "starting as a gray elf." Though B.F. seems to have ninja'd me quite a bit earlier. :smallwink:

[Blink Knight]

You are a Wizard. You do your usual thing, and you keep Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image, and so on. You also have Abrupt Jaunt. Enemies will go for you because you're dangerous. They won't hit you much because of all the illusions. The best defense is a good offense, the second best is don't get hit. You have both.

[AMFV]

The problem is that there are two elements to tanking (at least as seen in MMOs), the first is damage mitigation, which as many far more talented folks have pointed out is pretty easy. The second is threat generation and control, which is more difficult since there is really no way to force an enemy to focus on you.

But still, we're a wizard, so this is easy to solve. The first step is using Silent Illusions on your party members (potentially using a familiar to concentrate on it). One can use this to make your party members appear to be illusory themselves (There are many other spells that would work for this as well). A Gnome Illusionist would have a pretty good time of this. You could also use invisibility or Greater Invisibility and then use illusions to make it appear that your party members are focused on or appear to not be threats.

Additionally "Attack me" is probably a fairly plausible suggestion, it might even get circumstance bonuses since the suggestion is not at all far fetched. You could also use Charm Person and then tell your new friend to attack you, a mind-bender dip would get you Telepathy, and would allow you to make the instructions to your new friends without being noticed, you could use this to cause your enemies to focus on you as a threat.

The more you can make it appear that you are the biggest threat, the more likely enemies are to focus on you. So basically the main tricks are to use Enchantment and Illusion to manipulate your enemies to focus on you, then you can use the mitigation tricks to protect yourself.

Lastly, you could use terrain controls to create a clear path to you while making it difficult to approach your allies, this is more obvious and is therefore less likely to work on enemies who are intelligent, but against animal level intelligences, it should work quite well to cause you to be targeted. Sculpt Spell is probably the best route for this particular trick.

[Rubik]

You are a Wizard. You do your usual thing, and you keep Mirror Image, Greater Mirror Image, and so on. You also have Abrupt Jaunt. Enemies will go for you because you're dangerous. They won't hit you much because of all the illusions. The best defense is a good offense, the second best is don't get hit. You have both.The nice part about this is that it stacks nicely with my suggestion, and becoming undead requires very little in the way of resources (just some money to get that way, and one feat to negate the threat of undead-centric spells, turning, and rebuking). In fact, becoming Undead (Humanoid (Human)) makes your threat level and defenses skyrocket, since you now have a ton of immunities with few (if any) ways to overcome them. And since you no longer have to focus much on the way of defensive measures, you can focus on going on the offensive, which, being a mage, means you can acquire in excess.

[dextercorvia]

The one thing a caster really has going for it, wrt tanking is that by generally being effective they naturally draw aggro from smarter opponents.

[Blink Knight]

The nice part about this is that it stacks nicely with my suggestion, and becoming undead requires very little in the way of resources (just some money to get that way, and one feat to negate the threat of undead-centric spells, turning, and rebuking). In fact, becoming Undead (Humanoid (Human)) makes your threat level and defenses skyrocket, since you now have a ton of immunities with few (if any) ways to overcome them. And since you no longer have to focus much on the way of defensive measures, you can focus on going on the offensive, which, being a mage, means you can acquire in excess.

Being undead generally reduces your overall safety because it gives you known weaknesses, and is rarely compatible with what a living party is doing. Any known weakness is overcomeable.

However the AC approach only works with gishes or non arcane casters, so that's out since the OP wants neither. And defense in short supply in a RAW game in any case.

[Rubik]

Being undead generally reduces your overall safety because it gives you known weaknesses, and is rarely compatible with what a living party is doing. Any known weakness is overcomeable.Yes, being Undead gives you well-known weaknesses.

This is a good thing, because everyone who knows you are Undead will try to use those weaknesses against you and fail, probably without knowing why.

Remember, I suggested taking Human Heritage for this very reason. You count as Humanoid (Human) when dealing with anything that specifically affects Undead, and the vast majority of negative effects that specifically target Humanoids are things like Charm/Dominate Person, which are [Mind-Affecting]. Luckily, you keep all of your Undead traits despite losing the Undead type.


However the AC approach only works with gishes or non arcane casters, so that's out since the OP wants neither. And defense in short supply in a RAW game in any case.I dunno. Immunity to many common effects as well as anything that targets the Undead type will come in seriously handy. Since you don't have to worry about shoring up your defenses to all the things you're immune to, you can focus on defenses against other things (the list of which is much smaller now) and going on the offensive.

It's like if, as a fighter, you gain a free suit of plate mail armor with 99% of all the defensive abilities you might ever want. That frees you up to spend your money on other items, instead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do undead actually qualify as a human-descended race when they're made from the corpse of a human? Not according to the sidebar in RoD.
As a DM i certainly wouldn't allow it. It's pretty questionable and rather cheesy.

[Rubik]

Do undead actually qualify as a human-descended race when they're made from the corpse of a human? Not according to the sidebar in RoD.
As a DM i certainly wouldn't allow it. It's pretty questionable and rather cheesy.If a creature has the Human Heritage feat and becomes an undead creature that retains its feats from when it was a living creature, I don't see why it wouldn't.

It's still descended from a human ancestor, regardless of its living status.

Think about it this way. If one of your grandparents was a dragon but died before you were born, are you still descended from that dragon even though it's dead? It's the same general idea.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If a creature has the Human Heritage feat and becomes an undead creature that retains its feats from when it was a living creature, I don't see why it wouldn't.

It's still descended from a human ancestor, regardless of its living status.

Think about it this way. If one of your grandparents was a dragon but died before you were born, are you still descended from that dragon even though it's dead? It's the same general idea.

Feats you don't qualify for cease to function. And being created from a human corpse is hardly the same as having a human ancestor, no matter their state of life.
You can certainly think of it your way, but that's a pretty thin justification for blatant cheese imo.

If you want to be undead take your positive energy weakness like a man (or corpse, i guess). :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Feats you don't qualify for cease to function. And being created from a human corpse is hardly the same as having a human ancestor, no matter their state of life.
You can certainly think of it your way, but that's a pretty thin justification for blatant cheese imo.There's nothing wrong with an undead creature being descended from someone else. Or would a dragon disciple be unable to claim his ancestry just because he changed types? An undead creature is still descended from what it was before; I don't see why this wouldn't remain the case.

Or would a kobold sorcerer fluffed to be the descendent of a dragon who has the Dragon Descendent feats to prove it lose his spellcasting and all his feats because he became a necropolitan or a ghost? Or would a half-dragon troll lose its half-dragon template because someone skeletonized it, despite nothing in the template saying they lose other templates? Is there something about the various undead templates that say that you lose other templates or heritage-type feats (mindless undead aside)? Note that various templates, such as skeleton and zombie, use the base creature to apply the template to, which means they retain their status as red dragon/kobold/troglodyte/gray render, type change notwithstanding. Thus, a half-elf remains a half-elf, meaning the other half remains human (or whatever). This is the same line of reasoning that a creature with the Human Heritage feat applies itself to -- you're descended from a human ancestor, and so you retain the benefits thereof. Or would a half-elf necropolitan lose the benefits of the "half"? What would it become? An elf necropolitan?


If you want to be undead take your positive energy weakness like a man (or corpse, i guess). :smalltongue:Why would anyone want to do that?

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Necropolitan has the undead type and the augmented subtype. Meaning, rules-wise, it is no longer an half-elf, human, or whatever it was before. It just looks like the base creature.
Zombies and Skeletons lose any subtype that indicates kind. I'm too lazy to check every single one of the myriad undead templates, but i'd assume they're similar.

Your example kobold would keep his feats since they're dependant on the dragonblood subtype (which you keep). You'd lose Dragonwrought if you have it since it requires you to be a kobold (have the kobold subtype, which you lose).

A template is not a feat. The templates state exactly what you get to keep and what you lose.

And no, a skeleton does not remain a member of its former race. It loses any subtype that indicates kind. The RAW is very clear on that point. A human skeleton is, mechanically, a skeleton with the general shape of a human. It derives it's abilities from the base creature, but does not share its type or racial subtype and thus doesn't qualify for feats that require you to be human.

Any feats that are dependant on a racial subtype you no longer have stop working since you no longer qualify for them. That's the price of becoming undead.

[Starmage21]

Be a dwarf

Go Fighter 1/Wizard 14/Runesmith 5

Wear full plate, carry a shield.

[Gnaeus]

However the AC approach only works with gishes or non arcane casters, so that's out since the OP wants neither. And defense in short supply in a RAW game in any case.

This just isn't true. Depending on the level of cheese allowed in game, an arcane caster can completely blow away the AC of a fighter by level 3 (like by being an outsider, and Alter Selfing into a Dwarf Ancestor). Even without outsider shenanigans, Polymorph certainly allows a wizard who wants it much better Armor Class than any fighter no later than level 7.

Admittedly, some of the techniques that you can use to get a high AC as a wizard (like wearing armor + still spell) are a long way from the strongest way to build a wizard. But you have already left the path of highest optimization just by declaring that your big goal is to be the party tank.

[Seppo87]

Admittedly, some of the techniques that you can use to get a high AC as a wizard (like wearing armor + still spell) are a long way from the strongest way to build a wizard. But you have already left the path of highest optimization just by declaring that your big goal is to be the party tank.I completely agree.
Also, being an undead with tons of HPs makes you a better Tank, but that's coming almost entirely from your race, and can be labeled as a cheap trick.
Since OP's point is to demonstrate how a wizard can be a tank, I wouldn't go beyond Warforged as far as race optimization goes.

This could make things harder, but also much more likely to convince OP's friend.

[walfulninja]

I completely agree.
Also, being an undead with tons of HPs makes you a better Tank, but that's coming almost entirely from your race, and can be labeled as a cheap trick.
Since OP's point is to demonstrate how a wizard can be a tank, I wouldn't go beyond Warforged as far as race optimization goes.

This could make things harder, but also much more likely to convince OP's friend.

This. While I am loveing all of this feedback I would prefer my tankness to primarily come from my class, rather then my race.

[walfulninja]

Awsome work guys! Keep it up!I can't wait to see the look on my friend face!

Him:Here they come! Get behind me puny wizard.
Me, pushing him aside: Actually, you should get behind me friend. That demon seems pretty angry.
*tanks belor*
Me,after dust settles: Well then, should we move on?
Him: O_O

[Rubik]

Well, it is entirely possible to undeadify yourself as a wizard with all the things I mentioned (except the dread necromancer part, though that's something you can get on the side, if you try). Just use Craft Contingent Spell or something, and you've got it down.

Do racial abilities count if they're granted by your class abilities? Polymorph and Shapechange and whatnot? What if you raise yourself via various undeadifying spell shenanigans?

[Threadnaught]

A Necropolitan has the undead type and the augmented subtype. Meaning, rules-wise, it is no longer an half-elf, human, or whatever it was before. It just looks like the base creature.

So according to you, becoming Undead means you lose everything because that's how Mindless Undead work, therefore all Undead work the same way?

Nah, I've got Libris Mortis open on pages 114-115 and shall risk the wrath of WotC by listing the actual mechanics of the Template. Though I'm going to limit myself to everything a creature loses.

Size and Type: Type chances to Undead, so it loses any Type it had before. It does gain the Augmented Subtype so it still counts as Humanoid for advancement and stuff it already has.

Special Qualities: Anything that relies on Constitution, such as Regeneration. That's it.

Abilities: Constitution because, Undead, duh.

Level Adjustment: See Ritual of Crucimigration.

Ritual of Crucimigration: You must do some role playing that involves paying some Undead creatures 3000gp. then they'll hook you up to an altar where they kill and raise you as Necropolitan. You lose a level, then you lose 1000xp, if this is enough to make you lose another level, then you lose that as well. If you are reduced to 0xp or less, you die and can never be raised or revived again by any means.


Sorry, a Necropolitan Gray Elf, is still a Gray Elf. They just lack a Constitution Score.


And no, Templates do not state what you keep and what you lose. They state what you gain and what you lose, anything you already have that isn't mentioned is kept.

[walfulninja]

Do racial abilities count if they're granted by your class abilities? Polymorph and Shapechange and whatnot?

These are fine, as I've always loved the concept of a smart scholer type character transforming in to a giant rage monster, a la Bruce Baner.

[Rubik]

These are fine, as I've always loved the concept of a smart scholer type character transforming in to a giant rage monster, a la Bruce Baner.Then use Contingent Spells to turn yourself into an undead, using the abilities I outlined above. Again, you won't have the +2 for being a dread necromancer, but the others are all quite doable.

[Blink Knight]

This just isn't true. Depending on the level of cheese allowed in game, an arcane caster can completely blow away the AC of a fighter by level 3 (like by being an outsider, and Alter Selfing into a Dwarf Ancestor). Even without outsider shenanigans, Polymorph certainly allows a wizard who wants it much better Armor Class than any fighter no later than level 7.

Admittedly, some of the techniques that you can use to get a high AC as a wizard (like wearing armor + still spell) are a long way from the strongest way to build a wizard. But you have already left the path of highest optimization just by declaring that your big goal is to be the party tank.

Shapechanging alone starts falling short rather quickly. Yes it might be higher AC than the party's glass cannon. That doesn't help you when your goal is getting enough AC so that a dedicated melee combatant has a low chance of hitting you. Because AC scales so badly, you end up needing Abjurant Champion as well. At the absolute minimum.

[dextercorvia]

Shapechanging alone starts falling short rather quickly. Yes it might be higher AC than the party's glass cannon. That doesn't help you when your goal is getting enough AC so that a dedicated melee combatant has a low chance of hitting you. Because AC scales so badly, you end up needing Abjurant Champion as well. At the absolute minimum.

Use Incantatrix to Persist Necrotic Empowerment -- That gets you +8 to Dex, Int, Wis, and Natural Armor, some other benefits, and 100 temp HP. Follow that up with persisted Shapechange (I like Chronotyryn for double actions and 22 Base NA, and a 20 Dex). Now persist Scintillating Scales to Switch that to a +30 Deflection bonus. Then Persist Bite of the Wereboar for a +8 Natural Armor Bonus (and a +6 Enhancement to Con).

You already have +8 armor bonus from Greater Luminous Armor (If you go darker you have to settle for a +6 from Greater Mage Armor), and persistent Shield spell gets you an easy +4 shield bonus. Foresight gets you a +2 Insight to AC. Assuming a base 10 Wis, you get a +4 untyped from a Monks belt (after Necrotic Empowerment).

So, for persisting a few spells, which are worth it in their own right, you get an AC of 10 +8 (Armor) +4 (Shield) + 9 (Dex) + 30 (Deflection) + 8 (Natural) +2 (Insight) + 4 (untyped) = 75, 55 Touch. Your Con is melee levels of high, and you have 100 Temp HP. When you run through those, you can use False Life to stay topped off.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Size and Type: Type chances to Undead, so it loses any Type it had before. It does gain the Augmented Subtype so it still counts as Humanoid for advancement and stuff it already has.


That is not what the Augmented subtype does. The Augmented subtype just means that your racial HD keep the features of the base creature while you gain the traits of your new type (MM, p. 306).
Undead (augmented humanoid) counts as undead. That's it. Since Necropolitan PCs usually don't have racial HD the rest of the subtype is irrelevant.

And i didn't say that all undead worked that way. I looked at the necropolitan, zombie and skeleton templates because those were brought up. Necropolitan is probably the only one that players regularly use to become undead themselves.
There's at least twenty undead templates scattered among 3.5 books and i'm too lazy to look them all up when most of them are irrelevant to the discussion.

[Curmudgeon]

You might go Sorcerer so you can get Simple Weapon Proficiency. This will make you proficient with longspears. Take Improved Trip and True Strike. Ready an action to cast True Strike when somebody provokes an AoO, and then use that to make your trip attack when somebody tries to move into melee or past you.
That's not going to work for a couple of reasons. First, while you can Ready an action to cast a spell, the readied action preempts the trigger; the enemy is free to take any legal action after your interrupt is over, and can simply avoid provoking the AoO. Second, a longspear is not a tripping weapon, so your trip attack would fail simply because it's illegal.

[Threadnaught]

That is not what the Augmented subtype does. The Augmented subtype just means that your racial HD keep the features of the base creature while you gain the traits of your new type (MM, p. 306).
Undead (augmented humanoid) counts as undead. That's it. Since Necropolitan PCs usually don't have racial HD the rest of the subtype is irrelevant.

And i didn't say that all undead worked that way. I looked at the necropolitan, zombie and skeleton templates because those were brought up. Necropolitan is probably the only one that players regularly use to become undead themselves.
There's at least twenty undead templates scattered among 3.5 books and i'm too lazy to look them all up when most of them are irrelevant to the discussion.

Zombie and Skeleton are Mindless Undead, you lose all Feats going in because you lose you Intelligence Score.

If you're going to compare other Undead Templates, stop using Mindless Undead that others have already stated, work the way you insist due to their Mindlessness.

Instead your argument would have more weight to it if you used something like a Vampire, or Lich.

[Segev]

That's not going to work for a couple of reasons. First, while you can Ready an action to cast a spell, the readied action preempts the trigger; the enemy is free to take any legal action after your interrupt is over, and can simply avoid provoking the AoO. Second, a longspear is not a tripping weapon, so your trip attack would fail simply because it's illegal.

Huh, you're right. I had misremembered the tripping rules.

I wouldn't be over-worried about them changing their mind about how they move once you cast your Readied spell, though; if they choose not to continue to move, you've still stopped them from going where you didn't want them to. But yes, you'd need some other means of getting reach for your tripping. Enlarge Person, maybe.

[Curmudgeon]

I wouldn't be over-worried about them changing their mind about how they move once you cast your Readied spell, though; if they choose not to continue to move, you've still stopped them from going where you didn't want them to.
They could decide to Tumble to avoid provoking the AoO instead of assuming that a likely arcane spellcaster (no armor + spell component pouch = ½ BAB) would miss; or they could Spring Attack. For all you know they might have made their Spellcraft check to recognize True Strike. They've still got options to get them to where they want to go, so you might not have stopped anything except some incautious movement. True Strike won't do you much good if you don't get to attack because your opponent outmaneuvered you.

[Segev]

They could decide to Tumble to avoid provoking the AoO instead of assuming that a likely arcane spellcaster (no armor + spell component pouch = ½ BAB) would miss; or they could Spring Attack. For all you know they might have made their Spellcraft check to recognize True Strike. They've still got options to get them to where they want to go, so you might not have stopped anything except some incautious movement. True Strike won't do you much good if you don't get to attack because your opponent outmaneuvered you.

Hrm. There is that. Spring Attack, again, isn't too much of a problem, because if they use it on you, they still aren't attacking whoever they originally planned to (and if they don't, they still provoke your AoO). Tumbling to avoid provoking, though, is a problem.

Again, utilizing some form of blindsense (perhaps from a bat familiar) and Obscuring Mist or some other vision-hampering effect would prevent them from seeing you doing anything, so they couldn't react to it, however. True Strike means you just need to attack the right square, which your familiar can help you do.

[RolandDeschain]

Dwarf - runesmith/abjurant champion would be pretty darn tanky

[Gnaeus]

Shapechanging alone starts falling short rather quickly. Yes it might be higher AC than the party's glass cannon. That doesn't help you when your goal is getting enough AC so that a dedicated melee combatant has a low chance of hitting you. Because AC scales so badly, you end up needing Abjurant Champion as well. At the absolute minimum.

That is not my experience. I guess it depends on what passes for a dedicated melee combatant in your game. But clearly, somewhere between level 3 and 7, you can reach a point where the AC of an arcane caster optimized for AC will be higher than anything reachable by equivalent level fighter types of tier 3 or below. Monster attack bonuses may pass you at some level, but your fighter will sure never find a way to catch up to your AC. And you can certainly hit a point where anything that has a reasonable chance of hitting you will hit most other party members with a 2. After that I mostly stop trying, because the DM is already picking monsters specifically to have a chance to hurt the AC beast, and he can push numbers higher than I can.

In other words, AC isn't always a tank's best defense, but to the extent that it is, arcanists can use it as well as anyone else. Dextercorvia's example, using stuff like shapechange, is rather past the level range most games go to. And Incantrix itself may be pushing the limit in some games. But I think the point holds true across most levels and optimization ranges.

[Blink Knight]

At level 7, you could hit low 30s. That's the lower bounds of respectable. Beyond that though you start falling behind. With shapechanging alone that is. Notice how he mentioned a bunch of other stuff, not just casting Shapechange (which itself is a win target combat button and not just + some AC).

I also find it pointless to compare anything to a RAW Fighter. If you're not surpassing him you're doing something wrong.

I'm also curious as to how he meant to cast Exalted spells and Necrotic spells at the same time.

[Gnaeus]

At level 7, you could hit low 30s. That's the lower bounds of respectable. ...

I also find it pointless to compare anything to a RAW Fighter. If you're not surpassing him you're doing something wrong.


OP wrote:


This is to prove a point to a friend of mine who beleves the classes should conform to the classic archtypes (healbot cleric, blaster mage etc.) So Ive turned to you guys to see what you can cook up. Good luck everyone!

The point here, is that once you have surpassed the RAW fighter, (or maybe paladin or knight) the exercise is done. I agree that if you can't beat a RAW fighter at his job with a wizard, you are doing something wrong. And that is all we need to show. A 30s AC isn't something you need tricks or polymorph to get to. Mage Armor + Shield + Alter Self (Troglodyte) +2 for 14 dex=26 AC with low optimization and 0 magic items by level 3. With the aid of cheese, Mage Armor + Shield + Alter Self (Dwarf Ancestor) + 2 for 14 Dex = 37 AC at level 3 without items. Throw in as much money for items as the fighter would spend on armor+shield, and maybe the aid of a crafting feat and you are a quite solid tank.

[r2d2go]

Putting this first as disclaimer:
None of this helps you protect your allies. Your enemies just won't attack you. Focusing purely on AC gets you basically nothing, so unless this is just "look, friend I'm disagreeing with, I have 87 AC", you're better off building control. And honestly, a wizard can beat a fighter in pretty much any situation other than an AMF.

That said, here's some ways to get ridiculous AC:

If you're willing to dip into a full casting class, Abjurant Champion gets silly AC bonuses. Unfortunately it's a bit unwieldy (prereqs one martial weapon, Combat Casting, BAB +5) but with a bit of shenanigans you can qualify and get in easily.

For Martial Weapon Prof, just be an Elf. Done.
Combat Casting you'll just have to take.
BAB +5 can be hit early by using Divine Power. If you're starting at level 8+, you can get away with 6 levels of Sorcerer or Wizard. If you're not, you can Divine Power at level 8 sorcerer to get your 9th level as Abjurant Champion. Of course, this is cheese, and may get a book or six thrown at you.

Now you get lots of bonus AC and swift abjurations, meaning you don't need persist.

Now you can go crazy. I had a list of all abjurations that grant AC at one point for this very reason, but I can't find it :smallfrown: it had 5 spells with different bonuses and well over 50 armor class though, at 13th level.

Now if you're going straight wizard/sorcerer, Polymorph/Shapechange/Alter Self/those nonsense spells are the way to go. There's other threads for the best form, though.

If you don't want to do ANY of that, you can just stack high Dex and spells like Shield, Luminous Armor, Protection from Evil, etc. 30+ AC isn't too hard. Here's a quick optimization for a 7th level wizard:

Guardian Spirit: +2 unnamed
Bulwark of Reality or Greater Mage Armor: +6 Armor
Shieldbearer (+2 Tower Shield): +6 Shield
Investiture of the Steel Devil: +3 profane, +1 per adjacent ally with this investiture.
Bite of the Wererat: +6 enhancement to Dex, +3 enhancement to Natural Armor
Reduce Person: +2 size to Dex, +1 from size
Protection from Evil: +2 Deflection

Play a halfling with 18 base dex and you're at 44 AC. Alternatively, if you're willing to have 5% ACF and can afford it, you can make do with 8 dex and a +1 thistledown feycraft twilight mithral full plate, for 43 AC.

Edit: Throw in Alter Self (use the armor) to get into the 50s.

[Gnaeus]

Putting this first as disclaimer:
None of this helps you protect your allies. Your enemies just won't attack you. Focusing purely on AC gets you basically nothing, so unless this is just "look, friend I'm disagreeing with, I have 87 AC", you're better off building control. And honestly, a wizard can beat a fighter in pretty much any situation other than an AMF.

All mostly true. But you have one huge advantage that a Knight or Paladin does not have. A wizard who has spent 30-60% of their daily spells on defense is still a wizard. Intelligent opponents will go out of their way to kill you first. Partially because ones which know a little bit but not too much about wizards may assume you are squishy, but mostly because any real threat, meaning a hostile spell using intelligent baddy, will know that you could pull out a scroll of literally anything to ruin their day, and as such will make shutting you down into a priority. You don't have to prove "I can make a charge attack that is a credible threat to you, to make you engage me". You just have to show that you are a wizard. Its not like they can just ignore you until they have killed all your party's casters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That is not what the Augmented subtype does. The Augmented subtype just means that your racial HD keep the features of the base creature while you gain the traits of your new type (MM, p. 306).
Undead (augmented humanoid) counts as undead. That's it. Since Necropolitan PCs usually don't have racial HD the rest of the subtype is irrelevant.

And i didn't say that all undead worked that way. I looked at the necropolitan, zombie and skeleton templates because those were brought up. Necropolitan is probably the only one that players regularly use to become undead themselves.
There's at least twenty undead templates scattered among 3.5 books and i'm too lazy to look them all up when most of them are irrelevant to the discussion.

Any Elf, including a Gray Elf, is a Humanoid (Elf) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm). Necropolitan doesn't say anything about losing your subtypes, only that your type changes to undead, so you would be an Undead (Augmented Humanoid, Elf). You're still an elf.

[r2d2go]

All mostly true. But you have one huge advantage that a Knight or Paladin does not have. A wizard who has spent 30-60% of their daily spells on defense is still a wizard. Intelligent opponents will go out of their way to kill you first. Partially because ones which know a little bit but not too much about wizards may assume you are squishy, but mostly because any real threat, meaning a hostile spell using intelligent baddy, will know that you could pull out a scroll of literally anything to ruin their day, and as such will make shutting you down into a priority. You don't have to prove "I can make a charge attack that is a credible threat to you, to make you engage me". You just have to show that you are a wizard. Its not like they can just ignore you until they have killed all your party's casters.

True, though mostly what I meant was that there's no reason to use the daily spells on defense when you can instead use the daily spells on being invincible. It's entirely possible at 7th level to never let any enemy get even close to threatening you (polymorph being one example). Now, I agree in that building defense can keep you safe if you let enemies get to that point, but it's that delves safely into the area of "restraining yourself to make the game interesting", in which case the only limit to your defense is how much you want to break the game.

[Gnaeus]

True, though mostly what I meant was that there's no reason to use the daily spells on defense when you can instead use the daily spells on being invincible. It's entirely possible at 7th level to never let any enemy get even close to threatening you (polymorph being one example). Now, I agree in that building defense can keep you safe if you let enemies get to that point, but it's that delves safely into the area of "restraining yourself to make the game interesting", in which case the only limit to your defense is how much you want to break the game.

Agreed, and we don't know enough about OP's table to know where the break the game point is. I'm guessing pretty low, since the DM believes in healbot clerics and doesn't think arcanists can tank. In that environment, I doubt things like Incantrix, Necropolitan, Dwarf Ancestor, or even Abjurant Champion are even necessary, in order to be as solid a tank as the game is likely to need.

[Blink Knight]

Agreed, and we don't know enough about OP's table to know where the break the game point is. I'm guessing pretty low, since the DM believes in healbot clerics and doesn't think arcanists can tank. In that environment, I doubt things like Incantrix, Necropolitan, Dwarf Ancestor, or even Abjurant Champion are even necessary, in order to be as solid a tank as the game is likely to need.

That means you'll probably see a lot of things copy pasted from the MM. In which case you'd need some of those if your intent is avoiding attacks with AC. You'll also see a lack of experience in general, so don't be surprised if some random homebrew creature ends up one rounding most of the group.

[Thanatosia]

Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade. Abjurant champion gets you massive ac from shield which you can cast as a swift action, and more if you find armor granting abjurations (Sadly mage armor is not abj) - luminous armor and ectoplasmic armor (vs incorporials) for example.

Swiftblade gets you +2 ac, another +1 from haste (which you can cast as a swift action, and immune to dispelling/amf), and 50% miss chance vs not only melee/ranged attacks, but targeted spells as well. Swiftblade does move you in a gish direction however, as it costs you a few caster levels in return for increased melee ability. The miss chance swiftblade eventually grants is just amazing for any tank.

Dip a level in monk and take ascetic Monk feat as a sorceror to add your cha modifier to your AC, and get a monk AC bonus based on the sum of your sorceror and monk levels. With cobra fighting style ACF the first 2 levels of monk also grants as bonus feats the pre-req feats for the Swiftblade class. Again, this is starting to move into a gish direction though.

As for hps, I'm not sure the difference between a Wizard/Sorc and a Fighter is that huge. You'll average 2.5hp per level from your hitdice vs 5.5 as a fighter, so -3 per level, but you'll presumably have a high constitution, which is where most of your hps will come from. Can take improved toughness to narrow the gap if you really want. alternatively, there are undead options that previous posters in this thread have mentioned to get your hp up to par.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any Elf, including a Gray Elf, is a Humanoid (Elf) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm). Necropolitan doesn't say anything about losing your subtypes, only that your type changes to undead, so you would be an Undead (Augmented Humanoid, Elf). You're still an elf.

That doesn't make you an elf. It just means you qualify for elf-specific things. There's a difference.

Also, i still fail to see how a reanimated corpse can be descended from anything. It doesn't have a human ancestor since it doesn't have parents. It certainly isn't half-human either.
The human subtype doesn't qualify you for Human Heritage. (Which was the point that started the argument)

Anyway, we'll probably have to agree to disagree. No Human Heritage Necropolitans in my games, you do what you want in yours, and at this point i think we're just rehashing arguments. We've probably derailed the thread enough.

On topic:

The OP specified that he didn't want a gish so Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Runesmith, etc. are probably out.

The biggest problem imo is that "tanking" as it's understood in MMO terms doesn't exist in D&D. The closest you'll get is blocking a narrow passage to keep the melee off your party.
As a non-gish wizard, getting into melee range should be the last thing you want to do, even if you have enough HP and AC to take the hits.
If all you need is keeping the enemies from damaging your party members you don't need to build for it - that's pretty much the whole point of BFC and/or summoning, which any wizard can do competently enough out of the box.

[Gnaeus]

That means you'll probably see a lot of things copy pasted from the MM. In which case you'd need some of those if your intent is avoiding attacks with AC.

I still don't think so.
Level 3, with mediocre dex and core only spells we saw AC 26. A CR 3 ogre will only hit you on an 18.

By level 7 the SRD ogre and the Hill Giant are up to +16 attack in melee.
Wizard 7: Mage Armor +4, Shield +4, Polymorph into a Annis Hag +11 (includes dex +1 from hag form), Gloves of Dex +2 (4k), Amulet of NA +1 (2k) Ring of Protection +1 (2k) gives AC 31, spending less than half wbl, without using feats or non-core. Hitting on about a 15+

By level 10 we get the Fire giant. +20/+15/+10
The wizard 10 can use the same exact spells for the same AC 29. One feat for Craft Wondrous: Gloves of Dex +4 (8k), Ring of Protection +2 (8k), Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (9k if we can find a friendly ranger or low level druid). AC 36 means he hits on a 16 for his first attack, 20 on the others.

Level 13 is a Storm Giant +26/+21/+16
Same Spells, - mage armor. Base AC 25. Bracers of Armor +6 (18k), Amulet of NA +4 (16k), Ring of Protection +2 (8k), Gloves of Dex +4 (8k) AC with gear is 39.
First attack on 13, second is 18.

By 17, we have shapechange, and our AC becomes really high.

So, without resorting to any forms that are not humanoid (I can go higher if I ONLY care about tanking/melee, and don't want to preserve casting) and in the monster manual, without making ourself an outsider, without anything non-core. Without using any debuffs on the monsters, even ones as simple as having a familiar that can throw a tanglefoot bag. Using no feats except Craft Wondrous Items and no more than 1/2 WBL, our AC has remained relevant as a defense throughout level range.


You'll also see a lack of experience in general, so don't be surprised if some random homebrew creature ends up one rounding most of the group.

Thats true. Not totally relevant. But plausible.

[r2d2go]

I still don't think so.

(many examples)

I think it really just depends on what enemies the DM throws at them. There's examples that won't hit and examples that will.

[Gnaeus]

I think it really just depends on what enemies the DM throws at them. There's examples that won't hit and examples that will.

Yes, there are slightly stronger core monsters. I picked giants just because they are common, thuddy, and run through the level range. There are also plenty that are weaker. But this is NOT a character who is highly optimized for tanking. Its more of a generic wizard. Give him some good feats, maybe some greater invisibility, haste, some MM2 forms, we can exceed those numbers by quite a bit. Nor am I suggesting that AC is a wizard tank's only defense. Throw in a little miss chance, maybe some stoneskin, a nice contingency at high level. AC is one piece of the puzzle. The point was just to refute the argument that AC would not be relevant for an arcanist who wanted to tank without taking things like Abjurant Champ. It would help, of course. But it isn't necessarily critical.

[Blink Knight]

"You'll need some of those."


Various examples including some of those.

So yeah.

[Threadnaught]

That doesn't make you an elf. It just means you qualify for elf-specific things. There's a difference.

Being an Elf doesn't give the Elf Type, it just allows a character to qualify for Elf specific things.

The example Necropolitan, 5th-Level Human Wizard only has one Feat listed with "B" at it's side, the 1st level Wizard Bonus Feat. An oversight was clearly made here.


Also, i still fail to see how a reanimated corpse can be descended from anything. It doesn't have a human ancestor since it doesn't have parents.

So what happens to a person's parents when they (not the parents) die? Do they just cease to exist?


Anyway, we'll probably have to agree to disagree. No Human Heritage Necropolitans in my games, you do what you want in yours, and at this point i think we're just rehashing arguments. We've probably derailed the thread enough.

Oh no, we're really not derailing it all that much. Your arguments, if correct would make Necropolitan a less efficient tank.
Those of us who insist our characters are walking Human/Elf/Orc/Goblin/Dwarf/Half-Elf corpses, are claiming that it is on the superior tank.

[Gnaeus]

. In that environment, I doubt things like Incantrix, Necropolitan, Dwarf Ancestor, or even Abjurant Champion are even necessary, in order to be as solid a tank as the game is likely to need.


"You'll need some of those."
So yeah.

I didn't say any of those were necessary. I mentioned miss chances and stoneskin. So Yeah.

Moreover, unless you can show how the core only fighter is getting a BETTER ac than the wizard, i have shown that his AC is relevant through the level range. And since the point is to show that the wizard is as good a tank as the game's basic tank classes, I think thats pretty much established, even without things like miss chances, at a very low optimization floor.

[Blink Knight]

I didn't say any of those were necessary. I mentioned miss chances and stoneskin. So Yeah.

Moreover, unless you can show how the core only fighter is getting a BETTER ac than the wizard, i have shown that his AC is relevant through the level range. And since the point is to show that the wizard is as good a tank as the game's basic tank classes, I think thats pretty much established, even without things like miss chances, at a very low optimization floor.

I don't even think we're talking about the same thing at this point. For that matter I'm not even sure what you are talking about since you just went from directly admitting you need some, but not all of the AC tools for a relevant AC vs copy pasted MM stuff to thinking I'm arguing a RAW Fighter is good at anything.

[Gnaeus]

I don't even think we're talking about the same thing at this point. For that matter I'm not even sure what you are talking about since you just went from directly admitting you need some, but not all of the AC tools for a relevant AC vs copy pasted MM stuff to thinking I'm arguing a RAW Fighter is good at anything.

The only tools, as I showed, that you NEED for a relevant AC vs copy pasted MM stuff were Shield, Mage Armor, Polymorph, Craft Wondrous, about half standard WBL, and a copy of the MM 1. I pretty clearly showed that you did not need abjurant champion. I then mentioned a long list of things that you could do to get your AC higher than the bog standard wizard I used in my example.

I do not know what you are talking about either, but you have done nothing to refute my point. And if your argument is anything OTHER than that an arcanist can tank (via AC and other simple core methods) as well as or better than the PHB classes that traditionally hold the role of Tank (Fighter, Paladin) then I recommend you start a different thread. Because that is what this thread is about.

I am specifically not arguing:
That tanking is necessary (it isn't)
That tanking is the best thing for a wizard to do (it isn't)
That abjurant Champion and other tricks couldn't help (they can)

I am saying
That through the bulk of the level range, a low op wizard or sorc who intends to tank can tank normal monsters in the MM
That through the bulk of the level range, a wizard or sorc who is built for tanking can equal or exceed the tier 4-5 classes who were designed to be tanks, and the wizard doesn't need to have huge optimization chops or any particular race or PRC to make this happen.

[r2d2go]

That through the bulk of the level range, a low op wizard or sorc who intends to tank can tank normal monsters in the MM
That through the bulk of the level range, a wizard or sorc who is built for tanking can equal or exceed the tier 4-5 classes who were designed to be tanks, and the wizard doesn't need to have huge optimization chops or any particular race or PRC to make this happen.

Well, this is true.


"You'll need some of those."


Examples including some of those

So yeah.

This is also true.

I don't think you guys are actually in disagreement. Blink doesn't think that you have to use specifically Abjurant Champion, that was just an example, while Gnaeus doesn't actually think you don't need some of the things he listed (that's why he listed them).

[Psyren]

The one thing a caster really has going for it, wrt tanking is that by generally being effective they naturally draw aggro from smarter opponents.

They can also physically prevent enemies from targeting other party members, or at least make doing so supremely futile.


Awsome work guys! Keep it up!I can't wait to see the look on my friend face!

Him:Here they come! Get behind me puny wizard.
Me, pushing him aside: Actually, you should get behind me friend. That demon seems pretty angry.
*tanks belor*
Me,after dust settles: Well then, should we move on?
Him: O_O

If getting upstaged by a wizard is surprising to your friend, he probably hasn't been playing D&D very long :smalltongue:

[r2d2go]

They can also physically prevent enemies from targeting other party members, or at least make doing so supremely futile.[/spoiler]

This is how I would do it. Black Tentacles, a pile of restricting spells, no-save-just-sucks, etc.

[QUOTE=Psyren;17850314]
If getting upstaged by a wizard is surprising to your friend, he probably hasn't been playing D&D very long :smalltongue:

Also this. It seems the OP is in a campaign with a rather inexperienced DM, and honestly we'd be more productive towards making a good campaign for these fellows giving him tips :smalltongue:

[Endarire]

A "Tank" is a Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) who goes Dragonborn Whisper Gnome, swapping Scribe Scroll for Battle Jump, taking 2 flaws, and the feats of Heighten Spell, Spell Focus: Illusion, and Metamagic School Focus: Illusion. Go Wizard1/Shadowcraft Mage5/Incantatrix3/full casting the rest of the way and you'll be fine.

With this build you aren't tanking so much as destroying and manipulating everything that comes your way. You can use the spell master's touch (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/masters-touch--382/) to become proficient with a weapon you wield. If you prefer to avoid such things, use alter self, polymorph et al to get physical with your foes. Or just crowd control and so on. You are a Wizard.

[dextercorvia]

At level 7, you could hit low 30s. That's the lower bounds of respectable. Beyond that though you start falling behind. With shapechanging alone that is. Notice how he mentioned a bunch of other stuff, not just casting Shapechange (which itself is a win target combat button and not just + some AC).

I also find it pointless to compare anything to a RAW Fighter. If you're not surpassing him you're doing something wrong.

I'm also curious as to how he meant to cast Exalted spells and Necrotic spells at the same time.

Emphasis mine.

The OP only asked how to tank as a wizard without being a Gish. You said:


Shapechanging alone starts falling short rather quickly. Yes it might be higher AC than the party's glass cannon. That doesn't help you when your goal is getting enough AC so that a dedicated melee combatant has a low chance of hitting you. Because AC scales so badly, you end up needing Abjurant Champion as well. At the absolute minimum.

So, I gave an option that did not use Abjurant Champion -- I did use a casting PrC, which above all else, makes you a better Caster, not a gish. Now you complain that just Shapechange makes you fall short, which would be relevent, if you had no other options. In other words, you are moving the goalposts. Take what I showed you and remove everything but Shapechange, Necrotic Empowerment, and Greater Luminous Armor. You should have a better AC and more HP than an equal level fighter. In addition, you have a few extra immunities which are pretty sweet. On top of all that you are still a Wizard.