Fighter's ToB Archetypes

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Level 3
Comet Throw: As an action once per round you may grab and throw a creature or object 15', the target gains a Dex saving throw to avoid being knocked prone at the end of this throw.

DC: 8+Str or Dex Modifier + Proficiency Bonus

You gain expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics.

Level 7: You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.

Additiinally you may grapple targets 2 sizes larger than you.

Giant Killer: When a creature larger than you attacks you with a melee weapon more than 5’ away, that creature has disadvantage on the attack.

Mirror Move: As a reaction, when a creature provokes an AoO from you by moving out of your threatened area, you may follow them. Your movement doesn’t provoke AoO.

Anti-Charger: When an enemy moves more than 10’ and then attacks you they gain disadvantage on their attack (Clarafication: If the movement is broken up by another action and the enemy moves 10' to get to you then this doesn't kick in. If the enemy broke up their movement and then moved more than 10' and attacked you then this ability kicks in).

Feigned Strike: Whenever a creature makes an AoO against you for moving, they gain disadvantage on their attack.

Level 10: You may grapple creatures 3 sizes larger than you. You learn Soaring Comet Throw.

Soaring Comet Throw: When a creature fails their Dex save against your throw they take 2d6 + Str or Dex modifier damage. Additionally you may throw the target up to 30'.

Level 15: You may grapple a creature up to 4 sizes larger than you. You learn Soaring-Meteor Throw.

Soaring-MeteorThrow: You may jump a number of feet in the air equal to your Str or Dex Score and throw your target into the ground. If the tsrget fails their Dex save they take 2d6 + 1/2 Str or Dex Score damage (this damage is a replacement not to be added on) and is prone. You may throw the target up to 60'.

All targets against your throws gain disadvtage on their Dex save.

Level 18:
Final Sun Setting: This ultimate technique of the setting sun discipline can be completed once per long rest due to how extremely taxing it is on your body.

As an action, you grab an enemy (no attack roll) and jump high into the air, while in the air you spin faster and faster and finally throw your enemy into the ground. You deal 1d4+1 x Fighter Level damage (40 - 100 damage @ level 20) (no save).


Level 3
Emerald Nightmare Strike: Your weapon attacks are the stuff of nightmares. You do not roll attack rolls for weapon attacks. You roll damage and the target of your attacks gains a Dex save for half damage. The DC for this is 8 + Str or Dex Modifier + Proficiency Bonus.

If a creature rolls a 1 on their save you add any critical damage you may have to your weapon damage.

You may choose not to use this ability. This ability works anytime you would make a weapon attack, even when its not your turn (OA).

You gain expertise in Insight and Investigation.

Level 7:You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.

Insert Cool Name: Your weapon attacks are augmented. With melee weapons you may attack at a maximum range of 60'. Your weapon damage type (P,B,S) may change depending on how you describe it.

You may fire your range weapons with no ammo (or whatever you can find for crossbows such as rocks) as if you fired normal ammo. Additionally fireing in melee does not impose disadvantage.

Extraordinary Senses: When you learn this ability you may choose another sense you have besides sight (taste, smell, hearing, touch) and as long as you still have that sense you can in effect see as you normally would (you can even smell colors, feel the difference in the air when someone comes near you, feel dry ink on a page, or taste the air when creatures are around you. There is really no limit to this ability but it won't go beyond what you normally could see and what is presented below). You are immune to the blinded condition and invisible creatures and items gain no advantage against you.

Quicksilver Motion: You may take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge action as a bonus action.

Avalanche of Blades: When you make an OA you may strike twice with the same or different weapon. The second damage does not gain your ability modifier.

Level 10

Indomitable Concentration: When you use Indomitable you may choose to make the saving throw a Constitution saving throw.

Pearl Nightmare Strike: Seriously, nightmares and doom, thst is what your weapon attacks are made of. Once on your turn when a creature fails their Dex save against your weapon attacks you may forgo your damage against that target in order to frighten them for until the end of your next turn.

Level 15

Ruby Nightmare Strike: All creatures you target with your weapon attacks gain disadvantage on their saves.

Level 18
Any saving throw you attempt is a Constitution save. Additionally you may add double your proficiency bonus to your constitution saves.



Level 3
Crusader's Strike: As an action you may make a weapon attack. If you hit you may use your second wind as part of that action. Instead of regaining HP yourself, you may choose to inspire an ally within 60' instead who regains a number of HP equal to your second wind.

You gain 1 additional use of second wind per short or long rest.

Gain expertise in Medicine and Persuasion, this does not stack with expertise gained from other classes.

Level 7: You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.


Level 10

When you use Crusader's Strike, you give the target advantage on its next saving throw.

Your second wind heals 25% of your or your ally's HP.

You gain an additional use of second wind per short or long rest.

Level 15
When you use Crusader's Strike, you also remove one negative condition effecting the target.

Your second wind heals 50% of your or your ally's HP.

You gain one additional use of second wind per short or long rest.

Level 18
You may use Crusader's strike as a bonus action. Your second wind heals 75% of your or your ally's HP.




Level 3

Ignight Weapon: When you make a weapon attack you cause so much friction through the air that you ignight your weapon. Damage from your ability modifier is fire or lightning damage.

You gain expertise in Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand.

Level 7: You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.

Flash Step: Your movement transcends all known ability. You move so fast that you don't provoke OA. When you move you may instantly appear in any spot within your walking speed. You may use this ability once on your turn until level 15 when you can use this as many times as you can move on your turn.

Burning Resistance: You gain resistance against Fire and Lightning damage and reduce a target's immunity to fire or lighting to resistance and ignore a target's resistances to these elements.

Salamander Steps: When you move you may leave behind an area of fire and electricity. Any creature that starts or ends their turn within 5' of your starting location takes 1d4 + Str or Dex modifier fire and electric damage. This area of fire and electricity last until the start if your next turn. A creature can take this damage only once per round.

Level 10
All damage from your weapon is the normal weapon type and fire or lightning damage. Increase your weapon damage dice by one step.

Level 15
All damage from your weapon is your normal weapon type, fire, and lightning damage.

Due to the fire and lightning created by your weapon you may increase your weapon reach by 5' when you attack with a melee weapon. You don't have disadvantage when you fire outside normal range due to the precision of lightning and the reach of fire.

Level 18

Your movements become so extreme that as a bonus action your form takes on that of a Fire or Lightning elemental for 1 hour (Max CR is 7). You retain all class and racial abilities. You gain the HP from the crearure's Con Mod as temp HP. You also gain the following from the elemental.

Damage Resistance, Damage Immunity, Condition Immunities, Senses, Form Ability, Susceptibilities, and Actions.

You may end this ability at anytime as a bonus action. If you have similar abilities (such as passive perception) then you may use the better of the two.



Level 3
Mountain Strike: Once on your turn when you damage an enemy you may knock it 10' away from you. If you follow the target then that 10' of movement doesn't provoke OA.

Knock Back Damage: When the target comes to a hard surface and has movement remaining they take 1d6 damage. Depending on the surface type the damage type may change.

You gain expertise in Athletics and Survival.

Level 7: You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.

Stone Bones: Choose three types of damage from following list. You gain resistance to them. You may make this choice each time you ready this stance. Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, Fire, Acid, Cold, Thunder, or Lightning.

Stone Foot Stance: You gain advantage when you defend against Shove, Grappling, and any magical effect that forcefully moves or restrains you.

Crushing Vice: Your weapon attacks reduce a creature's movement by 10'.

Stone Crushing Strike: Your weapon attacks ignore the resistances and immunities that creatures or objects may have.

Level 10
Elder Mountain Strike: Knock back distance is 30'. You may use a Bonus Action to follow them if you have no movement remaining. Knock back damage increases to 2d6. You may knock back 2 creatures you damage on your turn.

Level 15
Ancient Mountain Strike: Anytime you strike a target with a weapon attack they fall prone at the end of any movement caused by Mountain Hammer (Dex Save: DC 8+Prof+Str or Dex Mod negates). You may add your knock back damage to any creature knocked prone (a creature may take knock back damage 1/turn).

Knock back damage increases to 3d6.

Level 18

Mountain Tombstone Strike: When you damage a creature you knock the holy bejeezes out of them. Roll 1d4+1 and multiply it by your Fighter level. If the target has that many or less HP then you paralyze them for 8 hours. Due to the extreme stress this puts on the Fighter's body it may be completed 1/day.

You may knock back 3 creatures on your turn.


Level 3
Pounce: As an action you jump a number of feet equal to half your Strength or Dexterity score and attack a creature. If you have two weapons you may use TWF as normal. This pounce gives you an additional 2d6 damage.

You must jump at least 5' to use this ability.

You gain expertise in Athletics and Stealth.

Level 7: You learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest. At level 15 you may ready 2 per short or long rest. Stances are always activated while they are readied.

Blood in the Water: You can smell any creature within 60' of you that has less than max HP. This allows you to pin point them and take no penalties against them if you can't see them. The target gets no advantages if you can't see them.

Raging Mongoose: You may use Dexterity in place of Strength when you use any non-heavy 1 handed weapon.

Dancing Wolverine: You may use Strength in place of Dexterity when determining your Initiative and AC (modifier limits still apply).

Level 10
When using pounce you may jump a number of feet equal to your Str or Dex score. Your pounce damage increases to 3d6. The shock of your attack gives them disadvantage on their next saving throw, constitution save negates.

DC 8 + Str or Dex Mod + Proficiency Bonus.

Primal Grace: If you fall or jump 100' or less you always land on your feet. You take no damage.

Level 15
Your extra pounce damage uncreases to 4d6. Your jumps do not provoke OA's.

Improved Primal Grace: If you fall or jump from 200' or less you land on your feet and take no damage.

Level 18

When you use pounce you may jump a number of feet equal to Str or Dex modifier * Fighter level. Additionally anytime you use pounce and you don't make it to your target you may use both your bonus action and your move action to jump a second and third time at the rate of your pounce.

(You don't need to use pounce in order to jump these distanxes, I'll word this better eventually)

Greater Primal Grace: You always land on your feet and take no damage when jumping or falling from any distance.

[DiBastet]

Interesting. I'm brainstorming / tackling this same concept at this time. However, I think that the elemental monk subclass gives a better framework to build the subclass.

I'm leaning towards this because the way the elemental monk handles itself:
-The monk has Level Ki points per short rest.
-At each subclass level (3, 6, 11, 17) the monk may choose two elemental powers.
-Each time you learn an ability you can replace one you already know with a different one.
-Some elemental powers have minimum monk level pre-reqs.
-Basic powers (level 3) emulate or have power level around 1st level spells, and cost 2 ki.
-6th level minimum powers emulate 2nd level spells and cost 3ki.
-11th level minimum powers emulate 3rd level spells and cost 4ki
-17th level minimum powers emulate 4th and 5th level spells and cost 5 ad 6ki.

With the assumption that a tob power was supposed to be as valid for the character as a same level spell, I cooked this framework.

-ToB Subclass has [Insert Name] Points; 1 per level (or less), used to fuel its abilities. A short or long rest is needed to recover these points.
-Each time you learn an ability you can replace one you already know with a different one.
-Level 3: Learn two choices from a list of abilities based on level 1 manuevers and stances of the original school. These abilities cost 2 [Insert Name] Points to use, be an action, bonus action or reaction.
-Level 7: Learn two based on level 2. Cost 3 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 10: Learn two based on level 3. Cost 4 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 15: Learn two based on level 4. Cost 5 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 18: Learn two based on level 5. Cost 6 [Insert Name] Points.

Abilities and spells above 6th level are really rare on this system, and even the spellcaster fighter and rogue only go to 4th spell level and the almost-spellcaster monk goes as far as 5th, so I don't think it's a great idea to port int higher level maneuvers.

Anyway, that's my two cents, I hope it gives you some ideas.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Interesting. I'm brainstorming / tackling this same concept at this time. However, I think that the elemental monk subclass gives a better framework to build the subclass.

I'm leaning towards this because the way the elemental monk handles itself:
-The monk has Level Ki points per short rest.
-At each subclass level (3, 6, 11, 17) the monk may choose two elemental powers.
-Each time you learn an ability you can replace one you already know with a different one.
-Some elemental powers have minimum monk level pre-reqs.
-Basic powers (level 3) emulate or have power level around 1st level spells, and cost 2 ki.
-6th level minimum powers emulate 2nd level spells and cost 3ki.
-11th level minimum powers emulate 3rd level spells and cost 4ki
-17th level minimum powers emulate 4th and 5th level spells and cost 5 ad 6ki.

With the assumption that a tob power was supposed to be as valid for the character as a same level spell, I cooked this framework.

-ToB Subclass has [Insert Name] Points; 1 per level (or less), used to fuel its abilities. A short or long rest is needed to recover these points.
-Each time you learn an ability you can replace one you already know with a different one.
-Level 3: Learn two choices from a list of abilities based on level 1 manuevers and stances of the original school. These abilities cost 2 [Insert Name] Points to use, be an action, bonus action or reaction.
-Level 7: Learn two based on level 2. Cost 3 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 10: Learn two based on level 3. Cost 4 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 15: Learn two based on level 4. Cost 5 [Insert Name] Points.
-Level 18: Learn two based on level 5. Cost 6 [Insert Name] Points.

Abilities and spells above 6th level are really rare on this system, and even the spellcaster fighter and rogue only go to 4th spell level and the almost-spellcaster monk goes as far as 5th, so I don't think it's a great idea to port int higher level maneuvers.

Anyway, that's my two cents, I hope it gives you some ideas.

I would straight up make each class have their own Setting Sun style.

So while the Monk would work your way, a setting sun fighter would work totally different. This way you can feel that each class is different if you pick up a different character on two separate nights.

Besides, a monk would learn the style differently than a fighter. Like all the style of juijitsu out there, setting sun may have different styles too.

One of the things I want to do is give the fighter simple yet effective abilities. Throwing enemies around like rag dolls would fit this bill.

Attack Roll: 1d20 + Str or Dex + Prof + Unarmed Bonuses

Distance = Y * Str or Dex Score
Damage = Modifier, Score/4, Score/2, or Score.
DC = 8 + (2 * Prof. Bonus) to negate prone or half damage.

I can't get more simple than that, though I need to add rules for throwing creatures through walls.

Then make an ancient setting sun red dragon BBEG... >;D

[DiBastet]

I'm not adressing how In Character different classes learn exotic martial disciplines, but how a single monk subclass does in mechanics and how this mechanic is better, in my opinion.

You could use X Points like a monk or that Superioty Die like the battlemaster, but IMHO you really shouldn't make these manuevers be unlimited uses, because of two factors:

1 - Both "manuever-like" options presented in the phb have finite resources to fuel their "manuevers" per short rest. The monk has Ki, the battlemaster has three per short rest.
2 and most important - The original "feel" since in all three classes of the original tob you had to expend manuevers and couldn't use them again for some time.

With that in mind, a "3 per short rest" like the battlemaster could work perfectly fine.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm not adressing how In Character different classes learn exotic martial disciplines, but how a single monk subclass does in mechanics and how this mechanic is better, in my opinion.

You could use X Points like a monk or that Superioty Die like the battlemaster, but IMHO you really shouldn't make these manuevers be unlimited uses, because of two factors:

1 - Both "manuever-like" options presented in the phb have finite resources to fuel their "manuevers" per short rest. The monk has Ki, the battlemaster has three per short rest.
2 and most important - The original "feel" since in all three classes of the original tob you had to expend manuevers and couldn't use them again for some time.

With that in mind, a "3 per short rest" like the battlemaster could work perfectly fine.

Nope, way to troublesome for the Fighter or really anyone*. Especially when all you are doing is throwing. I like some ideas for endurance points and such, but the 5e fighter doesn't need it. The fighter is already a damage machine, they just don't yet have any fun non-magical options.

Prone is not a nasty condition. And this unlimited use (except for the highest ability) brings the Fighter up to mid fantasy levels.

The fighter should be extraordinary and be able to push or break physics without the aid of magic. Throwing a red dragon through a wall does just that.

The point base system you are proposing is way to complex for what I want to do. Also what I'm doing is giving the fighter an ability that really can't easily be replicated by magic, D&D non-magical classes need more abilities that are hard to replicate with magic.

Also... The feel of ToB isn't in the mechanics but in what you can do. Being able to have combat options outside of "I move and I hit" is what made ToB fantastic. Not "I have limited recycling resource to do stuff with".

Edit: * = meaning non-casters.

[CrusaderJoe]

Found this to be awesome! I ran a desert wind 10th level Fighter and holy cow the 7th level ability Salamander Steps really has been making disengage/dash a lot of fun.

If you take a Move action and use Salamander Steps it goes off as normal, however if you then take a dash action does it activate again? We played it both ways and it wasn't really overpowered but we weren't sure the intent.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Found this to be awesome! I ran a desert wind 10th level Fighter and holy cow the 7th level ability Salamander Steps really has been making disengage/dash a lot of fun.

If you take a Move action and use Salamander Steps it goes off as normal, however if you then take a dash action does it activate again? We played it both ways and it wasn't really overpowered but we weren't sure the intent.

Nice, thanks for using it :)

I didn't consider allowing the Dash action to also initiate Slamander Steps. You will take OAs for moving unless you have rogue levels (bonus action disengage). So I would say Dash is fine to initiate this since a creature can only take damage from Salamander Steps once per round.

[Pramxnim]

I'll edit this post with more feedback, but the first thing I notice is that the Setting Sun archetype doesn't grant your Unarmed Strike increased damage. Right now you're still only hitting for 1 + STR mod bludgeoning damage on Unarmed Strikes, which you probably don't want.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'll edit this post with more feedback, but the first thing I notice is that the Setting Sun archetype doesn't grant your Unarmed Strike increased damage. Right now you're still only hitting for 1 + STR mod bludgeoning damage on Unarmed Strikes, which you probably don't want.

True, though the main benefit of the system is to make people prone or put them somewhere else a little extra damage wouldn't hurt the game.

I'm thinking of 1d6 + Str or Dex damage but I'm not sure if that should upgrade.

[Amnoriath]

While I do agree that this isn't really bring the ToB in 5e in all honesty I don't think they should as this still allows the Battlemaster to be more eclectic while this more flavorful and specialized. This being said though you ought to rename to actually represent what a fighter would be called though I do have a few criticisms.
Overall
1. Instead of making text to have once per round just make it an action. Yes, making it an action does mean they lose out on the extra attacks but since this is an at will ability many of these abilities have more significant tactical and strategic use than just pure damage. All you have to do is make said abilities scale in which you already handled.
2. Having automatic augmentations to regular attacks especially at level 3 can be very potent. Currently the Stone Dragon can automatically push a foe away. The Diamond Mind ability now means they always deal damage and can even do so at ranged.
3. Since these are subclasses you can't eclectically pick from each of them should offer a flavorful sort of non-combat ability. Currently only a couple do and expertise is something that can only modify what you are already proficient with.
4. Your double stance should wait until 18 as pretty much a 1/day ability is very situational and makes a better capstone.
Specific
1. Comet throw should only be an attack as otherwise it makes dipping or a feat necessary. Then wait for the damage to apply afterwards.
2. Feigned opening is strictly worse than many others and should reflect the original better.
3. The Diamond Mind capstone is just ludicrous as a Halfling can effectively never fail a save again.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

While I do agree that this isn't really bring the ToB in 5e in all honesty I don't think they should as this still allows the Battlemaster to be more eclectic while this more flavorful and specialized. This being said though you ought to rename to actually represent what a fighter would be called though I do have a few criticisms.
Overall
1. Instead of making text to have once per round just make it an action. Yes, making it an action does mean they lose out on the extra attacks but since this is an at will ability many of these abilities have more significant tactical and strategic use than just pure damage. All you have to do is make said abilities scale in which you already handled.
2. Having automatic augmentations to regular attacks especially at level 3 can be very potent. Currently the Stone Dragon can automatically push a foe away. The Diamond Mind ability now means they always deal damage and can even do so at ranged.
3. Since these are subclasses you can't eclectically pick from each of them should offer a flavorful sort of non-combat ability. Currently only a couple do and expertise is something that can only modify what you are already proficient with.
4. Your double stance should wait until 18 as pretty much a 1/day ability is very situational and makes a better capstone.
Specific
1. Comet throw should only be an attack as this makes dipping or a feat necessary. Then wait for the damage to apply afterwards.
2. Feigned opening is strictly worse than many others and should reflect the original better.
3. The Diamond Mind capstone is just ludicrous as a Halfling can effectively never fail a save again.

Few things before I get to work.

First off the battle master fighter is a horrible joke of a subclass whose creator should feel utterly ashamed. Actually the entire Dev team should feel ashamed of the way they made non-casters. Above is more of an attempt to put things half way to where they should be. 5e has a fantastic base (advantage, bounded accuracy, action economy) but they dropped the ball on a lot of things.


1: I've been thinking on this one already. Not sure how I want to go but I was leaning toward making it an action. Actually, I will make it an action. Fighter gets Action surge so 1 or twice a day the fighter can take their maneuver action and then full attack.

#2: Automatic augmentation is something I want to give to all martial classes. Casters get this (save half, save reduces duration) so there is no reason a martial character can't do the same type of things. If a cantrip can do something with a mechanic then so can a non caster. This is one of the things that made me want to make the special moves into an action though.

Diamond Mind will always do damage, even at range. Good, that means we are getting somewhere and we might get casters and non casters on the same page.

3: non-combat abilities will come later as will a feats for picking up discipline maneuvers.


4: Nah. Being able to use two stances at once isn't all that powerful just awesome. Besides once you hit level 11 or so the Fighter's core abilities start to stink. Indomitable is laughable as is Second Wind (holy crap I have an idea for devoted spirit...).

Specific:

3: Good. Its about time a niche non-caster build has something ludicrously awesome. If you make it to level 18 then you should have something awesome. High level cleric has *summon god*, high level druid has *I have all the HPs*, and high level wizards have *I have the spells*.

For once a non caster will be in that level of awesome. :smallsmile:

[Amnoriath]

Few things before I get to work.

First off the battle master fighter is a horrible joke of a subclass whose creator should feel utterly ashamed. Actually the entire Dev team should feel ashamed of the way they made non-casters. Above is more of an attempt to put things half way to where they should be. 5e has a fantastic base (advantage, bounded accuracy, action economy) but they dropped the ball on a lot of things.


#2: Automatic augmentation is something I want to give to all martial classes. Casters get this (save half, save reduces duration) so there is no reason a martial character can't do the same type of things. If a cantrip can do something with a mechanic then so can a non caster. This is one of the things that made me want to make the special moves into an action though.

Diamond Mind will always do damage, even at range. Good, that means we are getting somewhere and we might get casters and non casters on the same page.

3: non-combat abilities will come later as will a feats for picking up discipline maneuvers.


4: Nah. Being able to use two stances at once isn't all that powerful just awesome. Besides once you hit level 11 or so the Fighter's core abilities start to stink. Indomitable is laughable as is Second Wind (holy crap I have an idea for devoted spirit...).

Specific:

3: Good. Its about time a niche non-caster build has something ludicrously awesome. If you make it to level 18 then you should have something awesome. High level cleric has *summon god*, high level druid has *I have all the HPs*, and high level wizards have *I have the spells*.

For once a non caster will be in that level of awesome. :smallsmile:
1. Yes, everyone agrees that they should have more superiority die but that is about all it needs.
2. That is inherent of a spell not the caster besides let us remember 1 maybe 2 spells vs. 4-8+ attacks a round.
3. Casters are still not reliable for damage. At best they get a 4d6+5 in cantrips while even those who can only make 2 attacks still come out significantly higher. What you are doing is effectively saying I will always deal damage and why should I even need to make a choice of strategy.
4. Feats, unless you are a human, need to trade an ability score improvement. In essence if something is fundamental in a subclass it should not be a feat.
5. A few of those stances can be equated to some lower level concentration based spells. No caster except a sorcerer with twin spell which only makes another target or emanation can make a double buff. It isn't so much that it is broken but it makes a better incentive to go a full fighter because waiting another 3 levels for a 1/day ability just isn't otherwise worth it.
6. While everyone agrees the way Wild Shape works with Moon Druid is kind of stupid let us not forget that the rest of those are 1/day. Plus a lot of those spells explicitly have DM ad lib written all over them. This though basically says I don't have to worry about any effect inflicted on me ever again. Why does the swift focused guy all of sudden become the implacable juggernaut? It not only is mechanically broke it is thematically broke as well.
7. Honestly it seems you want to take the liberty in making some things so powerful simply because at some point in the day a caster can do something of momentary significance. This philosophy though infringes on other mundanes far more than it does the casters. Plus it is far easier to deny spells than subclass abilities.
P.S. you have too many fractured up fire to damage abilities on Desert wind. Instead I would make the first ability as an action to make an attack forcing them to make a constitution save or catch fire giving off light as the fairie fire spell. Than just condense them later

[SpawnOfMorbo]

1. Yes, everyone agrees that they should have more superiority die but that is about all it needs.
2. That is inherent of a spell not the caster besides let us remember 1 maybe 2 spells vs. 4-8+ attacks a round.
3. Casters are still not reliable for damage. At best they get a 4d6+5 in cantrips while even those who can only make 2 attacks still come out significantly higher. What you are doing is effectively saying I will always deal damage and why should I even need to make a choice of strategy.
4. Feats, unless you are a human, need to trade an ability score improvement. In essence if something is fundamental in a subclass it should not be a feat.
5. A few of those stances can be equated to some lower level concentration based spells. No caster except a sorcerer with twin spell which only makes another target or emanation can make a double buff. It isn't so much that it is broken but it makes a better incentive to go a full fighter because waiting another 3 levels for a 1/day ability just isn't otherwise worth it.
6. While everyone agrees the way Wild Shape works with Moon Druid is kind of stupid let us not forget that the rest of those are 1/day. Plus a lot of those spells explicitly have DM ad lib written all over them. This though basically says I don't have to worry about any effect inflicted on me ever again. Why does the swift focused guy all of sudden become the implacable juggernaut? It not only is mechanically broke it is thematically broke as well.
7. Honestly it seems you want to take the liberty in making some things so powerful simply because at some point in the day a caster can do something of momentary significance. This philosophy though infringes on other mundanes far more than it does the casters. Plus it is far easier to deny spells than subclass abilities.
P.S. you have too many fractured up fire to damage abilities on Desert wind. Instead I would make the first ability as an action to make an attack forcing them to make a constitution save or catch fire giving off light as the fairie fire spell. Than just condense them later

1: No. They need better abilities to make it worth using a suoeriority die on. Their abilities suck.

2: Inherent because of what? Someone said so. And now I'm saying otherwise. We have spells that have attack rolls and saves, why can't we have weapon attacks that do both?

It doesn't break anything because by the time the fighter gets 4 attacks cantrip damage is going up and other spells are doing higher damage on a save for half. Casters keep up with damage now days so sharing a mechanic doesn't break anything.

3: The only 1/day abilities I have so far is the Archetype Capstones*. One of them is essentially a magic-less elemental wildshape and the others are mostly balanced around high level spells such as "Power Word Kill". Some of them are auto hits and some will only activate on a hit. Got to keep some variaty in these things you know.

*I think (edit)

6. Shape change and True Polymorph are more borked and have less DM ad lib. If you are level 18-20 you should have amazing powers and not just an extra attack. Getting to high levels should mean something. As it is now the Fighter should just be a 10 level class.

Which abilities are not thematic? Each work within the idea of each discipline. Stone Mountain hits you so damn hard you are paralyzed for 8 hours. Desert Wind has you moving so fast and sharply you turn into living fire or electricity. Diamond Mind allows you to have he most focused mind in existence. And so forth.

7: Using the word mundane is one of the problems. Mundane means well... Average or ordinary. We need to get that word out of the game for ANY PC class.

The only other non-caster/Extraordinary class in the game is the Rogue (Edit: and Barbarian, though that class is so damn sad that it makes Conan weep). The Rogue (edit or Barbarian) could potentially take these also, I'll have to check into that.

All the other classes rely (and not with subclasses but the base core of the class) on casting, magic, or magic stuff called "ki". They are all casters where as the core of the Fighter and Rogue are Non-Casters.

On the PS: There is no reason to force a save. You are literally moving your blade or weapon in such a way that it catches fire or sparks electricity. Your ability score is what causes this to happen and thus the modifier is the fire or electricity damage. Later the entire damage (cause you get better) becomes Weapon Damage, Fire Damage, and Lightning damage.

Edit: Making them have a save would be like having Firebolt attack, hit, and hen a save for fire damage. You already hit with the fire, there is no save.

Yeah it is harder to resist desert wind but hey, its hard to resist a mage that can target your bad save and take you out.

These break the mold for what non-casters are given but they don't really break the mold (mechanically) for what casters are given.

P.S: The battle master isn't bad because of lack of dice but is bad because they are so mundane. A hero or villain shouldn't be mundane. If you want mundane hen why are you playing a fantasy game?

[Amnoriath]

1: No. They need better abilities to make it worth using a suoeriority die on. Their abilities suck.

2: Inherent because of what? Someone said so. And now I'm saying otherwise. We have spells that have attack rolls and saves, why can't we have weapon attacks that do both?

It doesn't break anything because by the time the fighter gets 4 attacks cantrip damage is going up and other spells are doing higher damage on a save for half. Casters keep up with damage now days so sharing a mechanic doesn't break anything.

3: The only 1/day abilities I have so far is the Archetype Capstones*. One of them is essentially a magic-less elemental wildshape and the others are mostly balanced around high level spells such as "Power Word Kill". Some of them are auto hits and some will only activate on a hit. Got to keep some variaty in these things you know.

*I think (edit)

6. Shape change and True Polymorph are more borked and have less DM ad lib. If you are level 18-20 you should have amazing powers and not just an extra attack. Getting to high levels should mean something. As it is now the Fighter should just be a 10 level class.

Which abilities are not thematic? Each work within the idea of each discipline. Stone Mountain hits you so damn hard you are paralyzed for 8 hours. Desert Wind has you moving so fast and sharply you turn into living fire or electricity. Diamond Mind allows you to have he most focused mind in existence. And so forth.

7: Using the word mundane is one of the problems. Mundane means well... Average or ordinary. We need to get that word out of the game for ANY PC class.

The only other non-caster/Extraordinary class in the game is the Rogue (Edit: and Barbarian, though that class is so damn sad that it makes Conan weep). The Rogue (edit or Barbarian) could potentially take these also, I'll have to check into that.

All the other classes rely (and not with subclasses but the base core of the class) on casting, magic, or magic stuff called "ki". They are all casters where as the core of the Fighter and Rogue are Non-Casters.

On the PS: There is no reason to force a save. You are literally moving your blade or weapon in such a way that it catches fire or sparks electricity. Your ability score is what causes this to happen and thus the modifier is the fire or electricity damage. Later the entire damage (cause you get better) becomes Weapon Damage, Fire Damage, and Lightning damage.

Edit: Making them have a save would be like having Firebolt attack, hit, and hen a save for fire damage. You already hit with the fire, there is no save.

Yeah it is harder to resist desert wind but hey, its hard to resist a mage that can target your bad save and take you out.

These break the mold for what non-casters are given but they don't really break the mold (mechanically) for what casters are given.

P.S: The battle master isn't bad because of lack of dice but is bad because they are so mundane. A hero or villain shouldn't be mundane. If you want mundane hen why are you playing a fantasy game?
1. Really, so adding damage and the possibility to trip, disarm, or call in someone to attack,..etc up to 9(11 with feat) abilities in addition to being up to d12's as well as a couple utilities is horrible? How is that? Also don't answer because casters have spells because you aren't going to change the fighter enough to spam spells to "beat the casters".
2. Because some only attack a single person. If they have both then they are purely contingent on the attack to even happen to begin with. The point is it is an ability that shamelessly ensures minimum damage that doesn't give a different choice. You also still haven't countered the fact that it is shelling out 4-8 of these vs. at most 2. That isn't competing that is simply giving out free damage with in 60 feet regardless of what they have. Also cantrips and spells can still miss or be avoided entirely.
3. I don't have a problem with them in terms of power but I think a few could be changed. The point is aside from the Diamond Mind it rewards those who stick with it delay the stances.
4. True Polymorph eliminates all levels and still allows a con. save. Shapechange, yes it is powerful but again it is concentration which at most lasts one hour. So in comparison yours says I never fail a save again absolutely stomping on the now really good Diamond Body ability because my body is that tough. Though that doesn't make sense as constitution is about resistance of the body even though Diamond Mind is all about focus and reaction or mind.
5. That ability as it is more of hindrance than a benefit as you just change your ability modifier to damage to one of the energy types in which creatures are more likely to be resistant. I am actually giving you a better alternative. Firebolt only deals fire damage this though still has the attack will giving the possibility of continual damage and a hiding debuff. If you want to add an initial fire damage sure go ahead.
6. And you are using this justify effectively a couple abilities in which they are designed to not be avoided. This isn't breaking a mold it is just playing favorites.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

1. Really, so adding damage and the possibility to trip, disarm, or call in someone to attack,..etc up to 9(11 with feat) abilities in addition to being up to d12's as well as a couple utilities is horrible? How is that? Also don't answer because casters have spells because you aren't going to change the fighter enough to spam spells to "beat the casters".
2. Because some only attack a single person. If they have both then they are purely contingent on the attack to even happen to begin with. The point is it is an ability that shamelessly ensures minimum damage that doesn't give a different choice. You also still haven't countered the fact that it is shelling out 4-8 of these vs. at most 2. That isn't competing that is simply giving out free damage with in 60 feet regardless of what they have. Also cantrips and spells can still miss or be avoided entirely.
3. I don't have a problem with them in terms of power but I think a few could be changed. The point is aside from the Diamond Mind it rewards those who stick with it delay the stances.
4. True Polymorph eliminates all levels and still allows a con. save. Shapechange, yes it is powerful but again it is concentration which at most lasts one hour. So in comparison yours says I never fail a save again absolutely stomping on the now really good Diamond Body ability because my body is that tough. Though that doesn't make sense as constitution is about resistance of the body even though Diamond Mind is all about focus and reaction or mind.
5. That ability as it is more of hindrance than a benefit as you just change your ability modifier to damage to one of the energy types in which creatures are more likely to be resistant. I am actually giving you a better alternative. Firebolt only deals fire damage this though still has the attack will giving the possibility of continual damage and a hiding debuff. If you want to add an initial fire damage sure go ahead.
6. And you are using this justify effectively a couple abilities in which they are designed to not be avoided. This isn't breaking a mold it is just playing favorites.

1:This isn't the area to explain why the battle master is absolutely terrible. I'm not getting into it here. It is terrible and that's it.

2: By the time the fighter is shelling out all of these attacks the casters are casting for just as much damage. Actually the diamond mind ability isbqeaker cause it allows targets multiple saves to reduce the damage whereas spells give you one and he magic user gets to pick which save you make.

3: There is no reason to dely the stances.

4: You don't use true polymorph on another creature, you use it on yourself or a friend creature. Think how powerful that is and how versitile. Also concentration has always been constitution based and about how good a person is at concentrating. Dimond mind using constitution was the whole point of the class since they got the 1d20+concentration (co based akill) to damage in 3.5. I have no clue why I would change it now.

5: The ability allows you to have your damage deal weapon damage, element damage, and element damage. If the creature is resistant to all three then they negate the damage. If the target is resistant to one then they take full damage because the damage type is (for example) slashing, fire, and lightning once you hit whatever level. Like when tou have a weapon that deals bludgeoning and piercing damage (like say a morningstar) you have to be resistant to both in order to resist the damage. Plus you'll can always decide not to use this ability.

Do they still have mirningstars in 5e? Hmm I'll look into that.

6: its about time someone played favorites with something that wasn't casters.

But seriously, it isn't about playing favorites but about letting everyone play the same game. The current construction of the game is that casters get to play superheros while non casters get to play Alfred.

This doesn't even touch out of combat utility that much yet.

[Amnoriath]

1:This isn't the area to explain why the battle master is absolutely terrible. I'm not getting into it here. It is terrible and that's it.

2: By the time the fighter is shelling out all of these attacks the casters are casting for just as much damage. Actually the diamond mind ability isbqeaker cause it allows targets multiple saves to reduce the damage whereas spells give you one and he magic user gets to pick which save you make.

3: There is no reason to dely the stances.

4: You don't use true polymorph on another creature, you use it on yourself or a friend creature. Think how powerful that is and how versitile. Also concentration has always been constitution based and about how good a person is at concentrating. Dimond mind using constitution was the whole point of the class since they got the 1d20+concentration (co based akill) to damage in 3.5. I have no clue why I would change it now.

5: The ability allows you to have your damage deal weapon damage, element damage, and element damage. If the creature is resistant to all three then they negate the damage. If the target is resistant to one then they take full damage because the damage type is (for example) slashing, fire, and lightning once you hit whatever level. Like when tou have a weapon that deals bludgeoning and piercing damage (like say a morningstar) you have to be resistant to both in order to resist the damage. Plus you'll can always decide not to use this ability.

Do they still have mirningstars in 5e? Hmm I'll look into that.

6: its about time someone played favorites with something that wasn't casters.

But seriously, it isn't about playing favorites but about letting everyone play the same game. The current construction of the game is that casters get to play superheros while non casters get to play Alfred.

This doesn't even touch out of combat utility that much yet.

1. Really, homebrew where things are changed to try to make it better?
2. Or of course he can choose to make a regular attack if someone is so good at dex. saves, choice and damage regardless. No, they aren't as they might have one spell that does but in all likelyhood it will benefit to have something else. Also, once it is gone it is gone and only things 6th and above could compete in failing but of course no one is regenerating those.
3. I just said there was.
4. It also means they lose out on their strategy and concentration means that is the only 1 kind of spell they can have on and only 1 caster is proficient in con. saves if they get damaged. The concentration skill though was something you actually focused yourself, giving every save a constitution save doubled isn't at all representative of the 3.X skill. This ability also derails in what others here get at this level.
5. Your first one though mechanically splits it meaning it can take one resistance of another. It also doesn't make to have 3-4 different abilities to slowly augment it. You can better use a couple of those spots to do something else
6. No, you are only saying this because you like the idea of never failing again but the point of the game is too fail sometimes even though none of the others get anything close. This hurts the Alfred's not the casters. There are 2 kinds of brokenness. One, is brokenness of ever versatility/resources in which stomps on others. While casters in this edition do have versatility even prepared casters has a known list for the day and 6+ are very limited. Then there is brokenness of numbers in which there is such a large one that it becomes nigh unlikely for anything to beat it. This is where the Diamond Mind capstone falls as many saves are designed to be made more often for someone who is proficient.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

1. Really, homebrew where things are changed to try to make it better?

The 5e subforum is the place to debate how horrible the BM Fighter is not here where it will only derail the subject.

I rather not turn this thread into a debate over how horrid that archetype is. You can like it all you want but for me, it isn't worth the paper it is printed on (or the ink it is printed with). I don't want mundane bull crap passed off as a good option in my fantasy games.

So that's where I stand and I'm not dealing with it any further. This isn't the place for it and I shouldn't have taken the time for this post.

[Amnoriath]

I have made a White Raven discipline to outline what I was talking about


Clarion Commander

Order from Chaos: At level 3 as an action you make a melee attack against a creature. If successful you may rally an ally within 60 feet to aid you. They add 5 to their current initiative score which lasts until the beginning of your next turn. If this brings the number past yours they may act on your turn if they wish. If an ally hasn't rolled for initiative this allows them to roll and not be surprised.
Additionally you become proficient in the Persuasion and Deception skills.
I think you should start with an at will ability aside from your normal attack action. The point of these classes to do something unique or tactical with some damage but not as much as what as your normal attack action would bring. Think of them like your standard action strikes. Also proficiency for your discipline skills.
Master and Commander: At level 7 you become proficient in charisma saves. You also learn each of the following stances. However you may ready only 1 per short or long rest.
Leading the Attack: If you are with in 20 feet of a creature and the ally is with in the same distance this creature can't take the Disengage action. Additionally allies gain a bonus to their attack rolls equal to 1/2 your proficiency bonus against these creatures.
Press Advantage: As a bonus action you may use the Help action with any of your allies. If they are successful with the action you helped them with in you may use your reaction to move 10 feet that doesn't provoke an opportunity attack.
Bolstering Voice: All allies within 60 feet of you that can hear you have advantage against anything that would frighten or charm them. If they already have advantage in that check they add 2 to the roll.
No significant change other than moving the second but do keep in mind each one of these against others should have some advantage. A few are strictly worse than others(Feigned Opening vs. Flash Step)
Douse the Flames: At level 10 as an action you can make a melee attack against a creature to have their initiative score subtracted by 5 and can't take any reactions or bonus actions until the end of your next turn.
Additionally you gain Expertise in the Persuasion and Deception skills.
At this level you can either make up a new action attack as at this point you can properly reward those who decide to stick with a significant amount of fighter levels making them less linear or even worse front heavy. You also may want to look at how to increase your first one. Alternatively you can look to modify existing attacks but keep in mind they should be no more than what a feat would give because there is a couple good feats that require separate action and even less than what you are giving out(Stone Dragon). Also at this point Expertise can come in.
White Raven Tactics: At level 15 you may choose to give your Action surge to any ally you see within 30 feet of you allowing them act immediately out of their turn and you gain 1 more use of this ability which may only be used for this purpose. If they also have benefited from the Order from Chaos ability that round they may take a move action as well. Additionally the initiative bonus and penalty increases to 10 to the corresponding abilities.
At this point you might want to look at something that could be used outside of battle. If you have either made another action ability or modified your attacks you should look at doing the opposite here. If you didn't increase your first action ability definitely do so here
Clarion Call: At level 18 you may ready another stance and any ally that either benefits from White Raven Tactics or Order from Chaos adds your charisma bonus to their damage rolls for the duration of the abilities. These bonuses do not stack. The creature struck from the Douse the Flames ability suffers a penalty to damage equal to your charisma modifier. If they are immune to being frightened they are also immune to the damage penalty.
Additionally as an action you may select any creature within 60 feet of you with 100 hit points or less and they are charmed for 2 minutes. This creature also treats your allies as friendly for the duration. Once this is used you must complete a long rest to use it again.
As I said your second stance ought to come in here to again keep things at a nice growth. Lets also keep in mind the Warblade had this as a 20th level capstone. You can cap off your action based abilities but generally it shouldn't hugely change it as most of strategic reasons you use it for should have been given already. The same goes for if you choose to modify your attacks further. If you already did one you shouldn't do so with the other. For the most part you have abided by the 1/day big encounter changing power but this is what all 18th level abilities should be. The ones that don't do not often go away from the original focus or idea. They also often are way too overpowered as they bring numbers no other class can consistently bring(Diamond Mind as we talked about and Tiger claw 270-300 foot jumping). This ability should reflect the 9th level maneuvers if possible with a little more edge as they are something that should be limited as other equivalent effects are.

[Amnoriath]

You also need to diversify Devoted Spirit. This discipline was far more than just healing. It was also tanking and buffing as well some smiting.
The stances could look like this to resurrect some of the most famous abilities of this discipline and copy a little Paladin.
Iron Guard's Glare: You are immune to the Charmed condition. Additionally if a creature you attacked doesn't try to attack you may make an opportunity attack against them.
Thicket of Blades: While using your attack action you can forego any number of attacks to add to the number of opportunity attacks you can make. So long as you have one remaining you still can make a reaction. This doesn't though give you another reaction. You may also take an opportunity attack against any creature that moves 5 feet in an area you threaten.
Martial Spirit: You are immune to the Frightened condition. Additionally every time you make a successful melee attack against a creature you may choose to heal yourself or an ally with in 30 feet 1d4 points of damage.

[Agmundr]

are you going to do a subclass for Iron heart?

[Kidbuu51]

Would
LD like to see what devoted spirit stances are and why you didn't add the massive damage at expenses to con maneuver that one was sick