L5R: Anyone here playing Ivory Edition?

[JustPlayItLoud]

I just got back into L5R after not playing since Gold edition. I used to love this game even though it started as a way to pass time when my D&D group was late.

Playing a ton of Dominion lately has made we want to start playing more card games, and L5R is the only CCG I've ever enjoyed playing since I stopped playing Pokémon in middle school.

This prompted me to buy the A Matter of Honor learn-to-play box. I've been playing with a D&D friend that also used to play L5R. We've been having a lot of fun, but now I don't know where to go. I don't like either of the clans in the box, but I don't know what starter deck to buy.

I started out with Shadowlands and got really good with it, but Spider clan doesn't interest me at all.

Also had a Crane deck built somewhat towards military but ultimately usually wound up honor running to 40 in a matter of a couple of rounds. Crane is by far my favorite clan, but I'm not sure if I want to continue with them. That and the FLGS I'd like to represent in the Imperial Assembly already has 4 Crane players.

Scorpion is my second favorite clan and dishonor victory has always intrigued me, but it seems like it's difficult to get the cards necessary to do it effectively. Maybe I'm wrong. Is it possible for a relative novice to do dishonor successfully without having tons of time and money to be able to track down chase rates?

I dislike Crab and Phoenix, but might be persuaded to change my mind on Phoenix if there's something really cool they can do. I'm largely ambivalent about Mantis, Unicorn, Dragon, and Lion.

Also, enlightenment. What's that like? My only experience was a Unicorn enlightenment player from back in the day. Shadowlands beat him every time and Crane won about 50/50. I hear Dragon is good at enlightenment, but is it even competitively viable? It always struck me as something mostly for highly experienced players.

[Lionheart]

I haven't got any experience with Ivory Edition, but I did play pretty heavily in the previous (Emperor) and loved it.

I've played three clans pretty much since Diamond Edition, Crane, Lion and Mantis.

Ivory has sort of lowered the power level to a level similar to Gold, so I'm not sure how many chase rares there really are in the game anymore. You can take a look at all the currently legal cards here (http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/) which might give you a better idea of what is and isn't possible in the current environment.

There have been times when dishonour was really strong, but it fades in and out of fashion. Last edition I played exclusively military, since it was the only reliable way to win, not sure if the game's balanced out a bit better now though.

[Science Officer]

Hmm, piggy-backing on this thread to ask some L5R questions of my own.
I found an old Storms Over Matsu Palace at a con, and that was pretty fun.
So I picked up A Matter Of Honour, and that was cool too. But I'm not sure I'm playing the game right.

It seems, very much so that,
Whoever loses a province first will lose the game
Whoever loses the first battle will lose the first province


So games mostly seem to go like this: You spend your first turns building up holdings, getting an economic base, 2-3 turns, or maybe more. Then, you start getting out personalities, and attaching followers and such.
There is no reason to attack unless you have enough power to destroy an enemy province. So you don't attack until you do. Now. Your opponent does not have enough total power to destroy one of your provinces, (otherwise they'd be the one attacking), so they must block. If they don't block, they will lose a province, and likely the game.
So a battle is fought. If you (the attacker) win, the entire defending force is destroyed, likely leading to you destroying a province next turn. If you lose, your entire attacking force is destroyed and your opponent will be free to take out one of your provinces the next turn.

But what if you try something clever? Such as, say, attacking with only part of your army and leaving a force behind to defend. Well, your opponent's army is likely comparable to yours in strength. If you throw half of yours at them, they'll be wiped out, for no gain.

What about that tried and tested tactic from Magic: The Gathering, the chump-block? Attack with all-but-one, hopefully getting through, and using that one (or two or some other small number) defender behind to protect the province by getting himself killed.
Unfortunately, this is far too risky. If your opponent has some good fate cards, this defence will be brushed aside and you will lose a province.

So. Defending with a small force won't work. Defending with a medium-sized force won't work. You won't win the game (by military victory) if you don't attack. It appears the only thing to do is to attack with everything, and hopefully win.

Am I missing something?

[JustPlayItLoud]

Hmm, piggy-backing on this thread to ask some L5R questions of my own.
I found an old Storms Over Matsu Palace at a con, and that was pretty fun.
So I picked up A Matter Of Honour, and that was cool too. But I'm not sure I'm playing the game right.

It seems, very much so that,
Whoever loses a province first will lose the game
Whoever loses the first battle will lose the first province


So games mostly seem to go like this: You spend your first turns building up holdings, getting an economic base, 2-3 turns, or maybe more. Then, you start getting out personalities, and attaching followers and such.
There is no reason to attack unless you have enough power to destroy an enemy province. So you don't attack until you do. Now. Your opponent does not have enough total power to destroy one of your provinces, (otherwise they'd be the one attacking), so they must block. If they don't block, they will lose a province, and likely the game.
So a battle is fought. If you (the attacker) win, the entire defending force is destroyed, likely leading to you destroying a province next turn. If you lose, your entire attacking force is destroyed and your opponent will be free to take out one of your provinces the next turn.

But what if you try something clever? Such as, say, attacking with only part of your army and leaving a force behind to defend. Well, your opponent's army is likely comparable to yours in strength. If you throw half of yours at them, they'll be wiped out, for no gain.

What about that tried and tested tactic from Magic: The Gathering, the chump-block? Attack with all-but-one, hopefully getting through, and using that one (or two or some other small number) defender behind to protect the province by getting himself killed.
Unfortunately, this is far too risky. If your opponent has some good fate cards, this defence will be brushed aside and you will lose a province.

So. Defending with a small force won't work. Defending with a medium-sized force won't work. You won't win the game (by military victory) if you don't attack. It appears the only thing to do is to attack with everything, and hopefully win.

Am I missing something?


Something I've learned from playing the game that I had forgotten is that military can have some important variances in strategy. I usually play Lion while my friend plays the Crab. I find that the longer I build up before attacking, the worse I do. With all the Ashigaru followers, Abundant Farmlands, and Well-Defended Farm you can get a lot of Force very quickly. So much so that apparently Well-Defended Farm was banned from tournament play unless you are explicitly using the exact deck from A Matter of Honor. The only time I do well is when I start attacking as soon as I have enough Force to take a province. Usually by this point my friend playing Crab usually only has a couple of personalities on the field due to their higher gold costs and few if any followers. Then I can use some of my Fate cards to send those couple of personalities home and have a fairly easy time of chipping away at his forces. Hopefully I've pulled an Akodo Daiken or two so that I'm not defenseless should he counterattack the next round.

If I wait until I'm pushing 20-30 Force, I almost always lose. He spams Ranged and chips away at my followers until I run out of Fate cards. Then he usually has his whole hand left and can generally crush me unless I was able to play multiple Outnumbered. Even then it's tough to win, usually a tie at best.

It was the opposite of my old Shadowlands deck. There you could build up enough Force quickly to discourage attackers, then build up until all your personalities were in play and you could overwhelm with Fear and Ranged, sometimes taking two provinces in a single turn. Learning when and how to attack is crucial to military victory. My Crane decked focused on forcing important personalities into duels and abusing Kakita Technique to quickly outpace equally matched opponents or immediately strike an inferior opponent and kill a key defender.

[The_Jackal]

I loved L5R, it was my all-time favourite card game. However, the decision to change the art style for both the card front and back REALLY annoyed me. The new designs were bland and awful, whereas the original card design and art was really striking and beautiful.

Here's an example, old card design:

http://imperialblock.com/itemimages/cards/1/IE/1007-1.jpg

New card design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTgyWDQwNA==/z/s3YAAOxy63FStyv8/$_35.JPG

The card backs they were compelled to do based on some idiotic trademark law passed by Congress, so I could forgive them, but I was utterly enraged by the redesign of the card fronts.

[Lionheart]

Hmm, piggy-backing on this thread to ask some L5R questions of my own.
I found an old Storms Over Matsu Palace at a con, and that was pretty fun.
So I picked up A Matter Of Honour, and that was cool too. But I'm not sure I'm playing the game right.

It seems, very much so that,
Whoever loses a province first will lose the game
Whoever loses the first battle will lose the first province


So games mostly seem to go like this: You spend your first turns building up holdings, getting an economic base, 2-3 turns, or maybe more. Then, you start getting out personalities, and attaching followers and such.
There is no reason to attack unless you have enough power to destroy an enemy province. So you don't attack until you do. Now. Your opponent does not have enough total power to destroy one of your provinces, (otherwise they'd be the one attacking), so they must block. If they don't block, they will lose a province, and likely the game.
So a battle is fought. If you (the attacker) win, the entire defending force is destroyed, likely leading to you destroying a province next turn. If you lose, your entire attacking force is destroyed and your opponent will be free to take out one of your provinces the next turn.

But what if you try something clever? Such as, say, attacking with only part of your army and leaving a force behind to defend. Well, your opponent's army is likely comparable to yours in strength. If you throw half of yours at them, they'll be wiped out, for no gain.

What about that tried and tested tactic from Magic: The Gathering, the chump-block? Attack with all-but-one, hopefully getting through, and using that one (or two or some other small number) defender behind to protect the province by getting himself killed.
Unfortunately, this is far too risky. If your opponent has some good fate cards, this defence will be brushed aside and you will lose a province.

So. Defending with a small force won't work. Defending with a medium-sized force won't work. You won't win the game (by military victory) if you don't attack. It appears the only thing to do is to attack with everything, and hopefully win.

Am I missing something?

That is basically how the game seemed to me when I? first played it, but it's not always as clear cut as that.

For instance, the card Retribution has been in the game for a very long time. It allows you to, after losing a province to an attack, make an attack of your own on the other player, in their turn.

This means that you can lose a province, then take one of theirs, then on your turn their personalities will still be Bowed, so you can take another province, swinging the game in your own favour.

Not sure how prevalent this is now, but in Emperor Edition military decks were taking provinces by Turn 2. It's generally a good idea to let a couple of provinces go unless you're certain you can defend them, and just make sure you hit the opponent back just as hard, saving your good Battle actions for one big decisive battle.

Again, this is all from my experience with Emperor, so may not be all that relevant in the current environment.

@The_Jackal: I'll admit I only started playing after the switch to the new art style. It's changed again since then actually, and I much prefer it to the old one. Each to their own I guess.

[JustPlayItLoud]

I loved L5R, it was my all-time favourite card game. However, the decision to change the art style for both the card front and back REALLY annoyed me. The new designs were bland and awful, whereas the original card design and art was really striking and beautiful.

Here's an example, old card design:


New card design:


The card backs they were compelled to do based on some idiotic trademark law passed by Congress, so I could forgive them, but I was utterly enraged by the redesign of the card fronts.

It's funny you say that because I feel the exact opposite. When I first started playing Gold I was given a few older edition cards as proxies for still legal cards. I couldn't believe how ugly they were. The art was fine but the rest of the card design looked chaotic and cartoony for me.

The newer sets look better than ever. The borders, text, and numerical values are neat and clean and quite attractive. The art is as good as always. This one (http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=11214,#hashid=df2d2b9f8cddf28a1d4d49e002b9 7f27) I find to be especially cool looking.

[Brother Oni]

I played back in the Imperial Edition and had a Yogo Junzo's Army deck that could generate 15 Force of personalities on turn 1 with a good draw. The cost of a province and a tapped out stronghold for 3 turns usually didn't matter, especially since it was combined duelling deck (Test of Might mainly) to crush anything the other player could get out. It also had The Unclean Cut to deal with Kharmic Strikes, which incidentally tended to cripple most decks with high Personal Honour personalities, due to the semi obscure rule of a dishonoured personality dying reduces the player's current honour.

Unfortunately as I learned Japanese better, the names started to bug me more and I never really got back into it once I moved away from my original playgroup.

[The_Jackal]

It's funny you say that because I feel the exact opposite. When I first started playing Gold I was given a few older edition cards as proxies for still legal cards. I couldn't believe how ugly they were. The art was fine but the rest of the card design looked chaotic and cartoony for me.

The newer sets look better than ever. The borders, text, and numerical values are neat and clean and quite attractive. The art is as good as always. This one (http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=11214,#hashid=df2d2b9f8cddf28a1d4d49e002b9 7f27) I find to be especially cool looking.

Well there is no accounting for taste. I hate the new look, as it is as spare, bland, and unappealing as a roadsign printed in helvetica. This card is no exception.

[JustPlayItLoud]

after deciding to avoid Scorpion due to the relative in accessibility of an effective dishonor deck, I decided go with my old allegiances. I ordered a Crane starter and a couple boosters to get started. I'll probably start stopping in occasionally to play in the open games hosted by my FLGS.

[Lionheart]

Yay Crane! You've made the right choice there :P

Any comments or advice you could give on the current meta would be interesting to read. I haven't bought any Ivory yet, just because there's no Stronghold Store in my area, but I do like to keep abreast of the game as much as I can.

Has anyone tried Egg of P'an Ku? It's a program that lets you play L5R online, if there's any interest I wouldn't mind putting together an Ivory deck on there for a few games. UK time zone may complicate things though...

[JustPlayItLoud]

Yay Crane! You've made the right choice there :P

Any comments or advice you could give on the current meta would be interesting to read. I haven't bought any Ivory yet, just because there's no Stronghold Store in my area, but I do like to keep abreast of the game as much as I can.

Has anyone tried Egg of P'an Ku? It's a program that lets you play L5R online, if there's any interest I wouldn't mind putting together an Ivory deck on there for a few games. UK time zone may complicate things though...

I haven't played a whole lot yet, but here's what I've gathered.

Card text is far superior: Most cards are limited to a couple sentences at most to describe abilities. Keywords are now separate. Regular text keywords are only referenced by other cards. Bold keywords are ones with specific properties, such as Duelist or Cavalry. Cards without abilities or requiring other special text tend to have reminder text for their bolded keywords (Duelists win ties in a duel). I had some Gold edition cards that practically had War and Peace printed on it.

Having not played since Gold edition I don't notice much of a change in power. Apparently there had been a lot of power creep up through Emperor edition.

Naval, Cavalry, and duels are less powerful than before. I don't remember the exact differences with the first two. Losing a duel usually bows rather than destroying, though there are exceptions.

Based on the Kotei results I've seen Crane, Scorpion, and Unicorn seem to be leading the pack so far. Crane military seems more popular than honor so far. Scorpion seems to be running a mix of military/dishonor. Unicorn had good military right now because their stronghold produces 5 gold, allowing for a 3/2 gold scheme.