Walking through a prismatic wall - how difficult?

[Seppo87]

(Sorry for making a thread for such a simple question, but I couldn't find any place where it wouldn't be off-topic)

Is it relatively safe for an optimized character with very high saves, both Improved Evasion and Improved Mettle, some rerolls available and no equipment to try and pass through a prismatic wall?

How high can the DC save from an optimized wizard expected to be?

[Slithery D]

Try and pass through? No.

Try and bounce off without dying? Maybe.

[Seppo87]

Why not?
If I'm not mistaken, there is nothing stopping creatures aside a bunch of effects that could be avoided entirely with a succesful save, Mettle, and Evasion.

Hence the question about the expected DC

[jiriku]

Generally between 30 and 50.

[Arbane]

Is it relatively safe for an optimized character with very high saves, both Improved Evasion and Improved Mettle, some rerolls available and no equipment to try and pass through a prismatic wall?

How high can the DC save from an optimized wizard expected to be?

This comic seems relevant (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=542).

Let's see. 7 saves. A boatload of damage (evadable), two instant-death Fort saves, and two save-or-lose Will saves. It's an 8th level spell, so the MINIMUM DC is 22 (18 int needed), and probably much higher (Hard to imagine a successful 15th level wizard who hasn't maxed out their Int,) so probably more like DC 27 or so, _if_ the caster isn't as big a optimizer as most people on this forum.

Feeling lucky?

[icefractal]

Well, since we're talking about an optimized Wizard, I'm going to say the minimums would be about:
Int 16 + 4 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 1 age = 32 (+11); or just starting at Int 17, no age mod.
DC 19 + 11 = 30

More effort put into it:
Int 18 + 2 race + 3 age + 4 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 2 succubus = 40 (+15)
DC 19 + 15 + 2 (GSF) = 36

There's probably a bit more you could squeeze out of it - exotic bonuses to Int, Snowcasting + GSF (cold), but I don't think it's going much over 40.

[Seppo87]

When I said "very high saves" I meant actually very high.
Yes I'd feel lucky if it was 27 or 36. Even 40 is feasible.
50 is a bit more worrying tho, but not impossible to trivialize with some effort.

How do you even get to DC 50 btw? Just being curious here.

[Svata]

Let's go with a level 20 Elan Wizard. PAO to White Ethergaunt and its as high as you can go wihout making it an Epic-level CR.

Int score is 27+5(tome)+5(levels)+6(item)+3(age) for 46 INT, or a +18 Mod.

DC is 18(base)+2(GSF)+18(INT)+1(heighten) then add in the snowcasting and GSF cold for another +2. That's 41. Unsure how to get the last 9.

[jiriku]

How do you even get to DC 50 btw? Just being curious here.

Circle magic via red wizard or hathran to heighten the spell to an effective spell level of 20. Let's take Svata's 46 Int, which is much better than what I came up with. Assume Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. That's a 50 right there. The Frostburn cold focuses would give you another +2, but really I think someone optimizing DC is going to be using either those or the normal ones -- nobody lights five feats on fire just to get +4 save DC.

[Seppo87]

Thank you all. This was instructive.

[Seffbasilisk]

Evasion and Mettle are nice, but they won't stop vs the Willsaves. If you have something like Dimensional Anchor on yourself, and Mindblank you can handle that. Poison immunity or a cracked out Fort Save and con to burn you can handle it. The one that got my last tank was the petrification.

[Dalebert]

You absorb all the damage and make all your saves, you still hit a wall of force at the end so you don't walk through it unless you have a way to handle that. Do you?

[Tvtyrant]

Let's go with a level 20 Elan Wizard. PAO to White Ethergaunt and its as high as you can go wihout making it an Epic-level CR.

Int score is 27+5(tome)+5(levels)+6(item)+3(age) for 46 INT, or a +18 Mod.

DC is 18(base)+2(GSF)+18(INT)+1(heighten) then add in the snowcasting and GSF cold for another +2. That's 41. Unsure how to get the last 9.

PAO + Reserves of Strength + Circle Magic = Gold Dragon Wyrm form, starting at 32 int. Gets you 51 int, +20 mod. DC 43 is not bad.

[Agincourt]

You absorb all the damage and make all your saves, you still hit a wall of force at the end so you don't walk through it unless you have a way to handle that. Do you?

I don't see a wall of force among its effects:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm

[gooddragon1]

Spell resistance might be a better bet if you could get it high enough. Alternatively, an adamantine pick could let you go under or over it.

[Sith_Happens]

Without rerolls you have at most a ~70% chance of passing all seven saves, because natural 1's are a thing. Steadfast Determination keeps you from automatically failing Fortitude saves on natural 1's, increasing that to ~77%. Assuming you do pass every save, you'll still take 70 hit point damage without Evasion and 1d6 CON damage without Mettle.

[Lightlawbliss]

Without rerolls you have at most a ~70% chance of passing all seven saves, because natural 1's are a thing. Steadfast Determination keeps you from automatically failing Fortitude saves on natural 1's, increasing that to ~77%. Assuming you do pass every save, you'll still take 70 hit point damage without Evasion and 1d6 CON damage without Mettle.

how you getting those numbers?

[Arbane]

how you getting those numbers?

5% chance of rolling a one. So, your chance of not getting any ones is 0.95 ^ 7 = 0.69833729609 ~= 70% (according to an online calculator.) The 77% is if you can't fail the 2 Fort saves even on a 1.

[Malroth]

with no immunities or rerolls and +infinity to all saves you still have a 5% chance of failing a given save, or a 95% chance to pass a given save. the odds of passing 7 saves in a row is 0.95^7 or aproximately 69%

[Hand_of_Vecna]

5% chance of rolling a one. So, your chance of not getting any ones is 0.95 ^ 7 = 0.69833729609 ~= 70% (according to an online calculator.) The 77% is if you can't fail the 2 Fort saves even on a 1.

Assuming you have the hp to survive one or more failed reflex saves it's .95^4=.814

Myself I've seen a level 15 diptastic Barbarian do it. That character was stupid lucky though at level 8 he survived taking all eight eye eight of a Beholders eye stalks under the 2nd ed carry over that dropping down from above subjeted you to all eight eyes stalks. It was over volcano so Sleep and Telekinesis would both also have been death.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spell resistance might be a better bet if you could get it high enough. Alternatively, an adamantine pick could let you go under or over it.

He said circle magic to heighten it, so assume a caster level of at least 40.


Let's say a buffed Cleric 15 walks through one, though. He has a Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power, and spends those plus two 6th level spell slots each day to get Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity x5 all continuously active. He also casts Mind Blank every day, it could be from a domain or the Whispered Secrets initiate feat or one of many other sources. He also has Lesser Rod of Extended Delay Poison on him, and at the end of each day he casts Detect Poison on himself and uses his Bead of Healing to cure it if any is present, before Delay Poison runs out. If he has two Cleric prestige classes in something like a 5/2/8 array, his base saves are Fort +17, Reflex +3, Will +17, with at least Con 20 buffed and Wis 32, and don't forget that Superior Resistance. He also has a Craft Contingent Spell: Stone to Flesh if petrified as a precaution. Let's see how he fares against the DC 50 Prismatic Wall:

Fire: immune.
Acid: immune.
Electric: immune.
Poison: delayed until cured, no effect.
Petrification: +28 vs DC 50, needs to roll a natural 20 but his Craft Contingent Spell should save him.
Insanity: immune.
Banished: +34 vs DC 50, needs to roll a 16 or higher, so 25% chance to succeed. He should be able to cast Plane Shift and then Teleport (Belt of the Wide Earth) to get back into the fight even if he fails this.

That's just standard buffs and precautions, not anything that's specifically designed to survive this. If he knows it's coming (Omen of Peril every morning, more divinations if outlook is dangerous), just Greater Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm) it.

[Vaz]

With Craft Contingent Spell, you have to be a creature. I didn't think you were a creature after being petrified?

Why not just go Ethereal? Or Dispel it? Or Teleport past?

You can have DC-NI, and a 3rd level Mundane (Swordsage) can bypass it anyway, and anything by 7th level can bypass it thanks to a Wizard with Teleport. Or Jaunter. Or anything along those lines.

[Seppo87]

Why not just go Ethereal? Or Dispel it? Or Teleport past?
Because it's fun to succesfully charge through a Prismatic Sphere and kill what's inside.*

*of course wizards are immortal and always perfectly prepared and they expect you to be able to bypass their prismatic sphere. I was just speaking hypotetically, for the fun.

[Dalebert]

I don't see a wall of force among its effects:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm

My bad. I obviously haven't taken a good look at it since 2nd edition.

http://i.imgur.com/OqoI9tR.jpg

[Segev]

It's worth pointing out that, if he fails the save and is plane shifted, he now has to cast plane shift back, teleport back (using his Belt's limited daily resource), and then go through all the saves again...this time likely without his contingent stone to flesh.

[kellbyb]

That's just standard buffs and precautions, not anything that's specifically designed to survive this. If he knows it's coming (Omen of Peril every morning, more divinations if outlook is dangerous), just Greater Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm) it.

I believe heighten spell thwarts spell immunity.

[Dalebert]

It's worth pointing out that, if he fails the save and is plane shifted, he now has to cast plane shift back, teleport back (using his Belt's limited daily resource), and then go through all the saves again...this time likely without his contingent stone to flesh.

What's to stop him from just teleporting to the other side? I realize he has to have seen it and if the wall was up before he got there, that would (probably) preclude that (It's probably opaque, right?). And before someone says spells can't go through it, that's fine. Teleport up or sideways some distance. Teleport to the other side. Go around. Even then, it's a stretch to say a spell is "going through" the wall. That would be based on an assumption that teleport is turning you into magical energy and shooting you in a straight line but it's never described exactly how teleport works.

Even if you haven't seen it, do a few geometry calcs, Dimension Door up, flight or levitate if needed, and DD back down again, or sideways or down depending on available spaces. Done.

[Seppo87]

Even if you haven't seen it, do a few geometry calcs, Dimension Door up, flight or levitate if needed, and DD back down again, or sideways or down depending on available spaces. Done.
But I want to pass through it. For cool value. Pass through it unharmed. Being a mundane.

[dextercorvia]

If you do pass through it doesn't the last layer destroy all your gear?


Energy field destroys all objects and effects.

Near as I can tell there is no save on that one. The Will save only looks like it applies to being sent to another plane.

[Segev]

If you do pass through it doesn't the last layer destroy all your gear?



Near as I can tell there is no save on that one. The Will save only looks like it applies to being sent to another plane.

Typically, "attended items" share the fate of the one attending them unless specifically targeted. Otherwise, you'd have to save for your leather armor, wooden hafted weapon, backpack, etc. every time you get hit by a fireball.



As far as teleporting to the other side of the prismatic wall, if you can do that, why are you bothering to try to walk through it? Just teleport the first time and save yourself the trouble. ;)

[dextercorvia]

Typically, "attended items" share the fate of the one attending them unless specifically targeted. Otherwise, you'd have to save for your leather armor, wooden hafted weapon, backpack, etc. every time you get hit by a fireball.


I believe this is only true for Saving Throws:


Saving Throws

Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

That is the only quote about attended items I can find.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dimensional Anchor can negate the plane shift. You can get it cheaply with the Binding enhancement (MIC) on a shuriken.

The petrification can be ignored with the Proof against Transmutation armor enhancement (CArc). Expensive, but useful at high levels. Getting a mix of armor, dastana, chahair-ana and shield to put your various armor enhancements on makes it more affordable.

Without gear it all comes down to relative optimization level. With Circle Magic, optimized int, Snowcasting, Draconic Aura, Cold Focus, Spell Focus, Icemail Armor, etc. you can get DCs of 60 or more. A few rerolls or the Pride domain certainly wouldn't hurt either. Getting your saves that high without equipment could be a problem though, especially if the wizard is smart enough to dispel (or add a dispel trap if it's a permanent wall).

[Vaz]

Outsider Sorcerer, Assume Supernatural Ability, Alter Self into a Neraph. NI DC's belong to you.

[Seppo87]

Getting your saves that high without equipment could be a problem thoughYes it may be a problem indeed. I wasn't expecting anything near 60 honestly. :smallconfused:
It is challenging, as it requires to devolve so many more build resources just to achieve this, but it's still entirely possible.
I know what I would do if I had to build it, and I'm also sure most optimizers here could nail this without a sweat.
The tricky part is making this [mundane] character with crazy saves usable in other areas as well.
The best approach would probably be a Charisma based character that stacks multiple instances of stat bonus to saves from different sources.
Charisma is pretty easy to optimize when it comes down to initiative, AC, damage and to-hit. It requires a lot of dipping and a lot of fine-tuning that I don't want to do at the moment.

[icefractal]

Outsider Sorcerer, Assume Supernatural Ability, Alter Self into a Neraph. NI DC's belong to you.Is there a different Neraph out there? The ones I'm familiar with are frog-people from limbo, who don't even have supernatural abilities to assume.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2

[sleepyphoenixx]

To be fair, you probably won't see a wizard with DC 60 spells in a game. That's requires you to invest pretty much every build resource you have into it. Most builds will probably end up somewhere at DC 35-45 for 8th level spells, depending on optimization.

[dextercorvia]

Try Unseelie Fey Magic Blooded Gloura/Spelldancer1/Warlock1/PaladinofTyranny2/Hexblade3/Blackguard2/DivineOracle2 (you can technically buy off the LA, but I'm ignoring that)

So, at level 20 you have a Charisma of 28+5 Levels+5 Inherent+6 Enhancement=42 So that is a +16 bonus which you get to saves 4 times (+64) without counting your saves from leveling. You can also persist Sirine's Grace* and Ruin Delver's Fortune along side of Dark One's Own Luck to shore up your weakest saves. Oh, and you get +48 to touch AC this way as well.

You get Mettle (from Hexblade), and Not Evasion from Divine Oracle (works in full armor). You can UMD a wand of Substitute Domain to pick up the Pride domain ability instead of the Oracle domain.

*That actually brings your saves up to +80 + class related benefits.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On the subject of becoming ethereal: "Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness)."

By that level nearly anyone would have an Anklet of Translocation and be able to just bypass the wall anyway, so it's not really a useful barrier.

The only truly dangerous use of it that I can think of is to cast it directly in someone's path who's charging or flying. In the case of charging you would need to use a readied action or Celerity. If flying the intended target would need to have average or worse maneuverability as those have a minimum forward speed and a max 45° turn. There's no takesies-backsies so if a prismatic wall suddenly appears directly in front of you while you're charging/flying forward you have no choice but to move through it.

[dextercorvia]

By that level nearly anyone would have an Anklet of Translocation and be able to just bypass the wall anyway, so it's not really a useful barrier.


Anklet of Translocation requires LoS/LoE, at least one of which is blocked by the wall.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anklet of Translocation requires LoS/LoE, at least one of which is blocked by the wall.

Boots of Big Stepping then, it doesn't matter. Characters of that level should have all the necessary item effects covered, one of which is tactical teleportation.

[Dalebert]

The only truly dangerous use of it that I can think of is to cast it directly in someone's path who's charging or flying.

Or put it horizontal in a pit. I've done that as a DM before. That was in 2nd edition when it didn't specify it had to be vertical. I suppose you could accomplish something similar with just a really sharp (45 degree +) incline pit and maybe a grease spell in a glyph.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you're going to cast it in combat you can probably spare a Dimensional Anchor. It's much more useful as a trap, hidden behind an illusion, cast with Invisible Spell or something similar.

Anyway, the question isn't why it's there (or why you're naked).

[Vaz]

On the subject of becoming ethereal: "Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness)."

By that level nearly anyone would have an Anklet of Translocation and be able to just bypass the wall anyway, so it's not really a useful barrier.

The only truly dangerous use of it that I can think of is to cast it directly in someone's path who's charging or flying. In the case of charging you would need to use a readied action or Celerity. If flying the intended target would need to have average or worse maneuverability as those have a minimum forward speed and a max 45° turn. There's no takesies-backsies so if a prismatic wall suddenly appears directly in front of you while you're charging/flying forward you have no choice but to move through it.

You can however initiate a jump (as part of a charge), which depending on optimization should be manageable by that level (30ish strength, 17 ranks, +10 competence item). If you are a charger, Leap Attack or Shadow Pounce are pretty much the two average optimization choices at that ECL15.

[Psyren]

This comic seems relevant (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=542).

Urgh. I think I would've done less damage to my eyes trying to read an actual prismatic wall.


I believe this is only true for Saving Throws:



That is the only quote about attended items I can find.

I agree, I think waltzing through the wall, even if you survive the experience and remain on this plane, will leave you naked.

[Dalebert]

Urgh. I think I would've done less damage to my eyes trying to read an actual prismatic wall.

Yep. That was an instant headache.