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Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-29, 12:52 AM
I thought it might be fun to design a tabletop roleplaying game as a community. It would be an exercise in both design and collaboration. We could create a functional system through brainstorming and democracy, then make a simple document and release it under Creative Commons or something for the world to enjoy.

To start us off, I've come up with some design goals. These are subject to change, and only exist as a starting point.


A superhero theme.
An exciting comic-book feel.
Fast-paced gameplay.
As little complexity as possible while still retaining mechanical depth.
A more traditional structure, with a Game Master, and preplanned adventures.
Not based directly on another system.
Better at its own specific niche (whatever that may be) than anything else.
Under one hundred pages long.


You can see the game in its current form Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o7CT9Rrczkig_5Df0IDUvVXr_9f3uX5rEVqkqKZYY1g/edit). I encourage to you contribute through ideas, constructive criticism, and even bodies of text.

Grinner
2014-07-29, 12:59 AM
A superhero theme. K'
An exciting comic-book feel. Not sure how to do that, but okay.
Fast-paced gameplay. Which means a simple resolution mechanic.
As little complexity as possible while still retaining mechanical depth. This says "emergent complexity" to me.
A more traditional structure, with tactical combat, a Game Master, and preplanned adventures. Now you're stretching the game a bit thin. "Fast-paced and exciting" and "tactical combat" do not mix well.
Mechanically distinct from other games. Not sure how that can be accomplished. Diceless mechanics? Moreover, why is it an issue?
Better at its own specific niche (whatever that may be) than anything else. What is its niche, anyway? Don't put the wagon before the horse.
Under one hundred pages long. That's fair.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-29, 01:10 AM
Fast-paced gameplay. Which means a simple resolution mechanic.
As little complexity as possible while still retaining mechanical depth. This says "emergent complexity" to me.

Sounds good.



A more traditional structure, with tactical combat, a Game Master, and preplanned adventures. Now you're stretching the game a bit thin. "Fast-paced and exciting" and "tactical combat" do not mix well.

When I say "tactical combat," I don't necessarily mean with a grid and miniatures and whatever. I just mean, "not totally abstract like Fiasco or something." Like everthing else, this is subject to change.



Mechanically distinct from other games. Not sure how that can be accomplished. Diceless mechanics? Moreover, why is it an issue?

What it meant is that the game shouldn't be a mod of another system. It doesn't need to be built entirely from scratch, but if it's compatible with something else, it's too similar.



Better at its own specific niche (whatever that may be) than anything else. What is its niche, anyway? Don't put the wagon before the horse.

I thought we would figure that out together, through brainstorming.

Grinner
2014-07-29, 01:20 AM
When I say "tactical combat," I don't necessarily mean with a grid and miniatures and whatever. I just mean, "not totally abstract like Fiasco or something." Like everthing else, this is subject to change.

Never looked at Fiasco. I'm imagine you mean avoiding narrative mechanics?


What it meant is that the game shouldn't be a mod of another system. It doesn't need to be built entirely from scratch, but if it's compatible with something else, it's too similar.

Okay. I can see the advantages to that.

I think that Nobilis does have some good ideas, though.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-29, 01:26 AM
Never looked at Fiasco. I'm imagine you mean avoiding narrative mechanics?
Yeah, but I'm really flexible. In my mind, the game is structured more like D&D or Call of Cthulhu than some really narrative-driven game like Fate.


Okay. I can see the advantages to that.

I think that Nobilis does have some good ideas, though.
Nothing wrong with borrowing from existing systems. What's Nobilis?

Grinner
2014-07-29, 07:21 PM
Nothing wrong with borrowing from existing systems. What's Nobilis?

It's a diceless RPG about demigods. That's not important, though.

What is important is the core mechanic. Each "Noble" has four traits. To perform a miracle, the player states what he wants his character to do, and the GM figures out how many "miracle points" that's going to cost him. The catch is that if the cost is less than or equal to his rating in the relevant trait, he can perform the miracle for free.

Since we're shooting for a superhero RPG focused around fast-paced gameplay, this kind of mechanic seems like the ideal starting point.

Also, I would urge you to revise your stance on narrative mechanics. They don't need to be like Fiasco, and they're immensely useful for keeping the metagame under control.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-29, 08:34 PM
It's a diceless RPG about demigods. That's not important, though.

What is important is the core mechanic. Each "Noble" has four traits. To perform a miracle, the player states what he wants his character to do, and the GM figures out how many "miracle points" that's going to cost him. The catch is that if the cost is less than or equal to his rating in the relevant trait, he can perform the miracle for free.

Since we're shooting for a superhero RPG focused around fast-paced gameplay, this kind of mechanic seems like the ideal starting point.
So ... if a character has a trait of 6, and the miracle costs 6 points, it's free; but if the costs 7 points, it costs the full 7 points? I guess it's simple, but it seems kind of odd.


Also, I would urge you to revise your stance on narrative mechanics. They don't need to be like Fiasco, and they're immensely useful for keeping the metagame under control.
I just picked the stance because one could create a more narrative-focused version of what I described with Fate Core, or possibly Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. A more traditional structure would set the game apart.

Ninjadeadbeard
2014-07-29, 08:36 PM
As for basic resolution mechanic, I suggest D10 Roll Under. Stats go 1-10, with a 10 Being Superman and Hulk's baby if it fusion-danced with Thor. Having a 10 just means you succeed at anything in that category, barring some very specific circumstances. Such as trying to move a Planet with Strength 10.

Also consider Hero Points or some such thing to enact narrative awesomeness. Like, Punch Man wants to punch Dr Evilface. He has a 5 in Strength, and rolls 6. A Hero point would let him hit regardless, while using a hero point on a successful roll would do something cool, like knock Dr Evilface through the nearest wall, or cause him to make a check to remain conscious or something.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-29, 10:40 PM
As for basic resolution mechanic, I suggest D10 Roll Under. Stats go 1-10, with a 10 Being Superman and Hulk's baby if it fusion-danced with Thor. Having a 10 just means you succeed at anything in that category, barring some very specific circumstances. Such as trying to move a Planet with Strength 10.

Also consider Hero Points or some such thing to enact narrative awesomeness. Like, Punch Man wants to punch Dr Evilface. He has a 5 in Strength, and rolls 6. A Hero point would let him hit regardless, while using a hero point on a successful roll would do something cool, like knock Dr Evilface through the nearest wall, or cause him to make a check to remain conscious or something.

I think it would be better if a cool thing happened every time Punch Man throws a punch, whether or not it lands, and whether or not he spends a hero point. Like maybe ...

2d6 + hero skill - difficulty.

6-: The attempt fails, and something else that's bad happens. Alternatively, the attempt succeeds, and something SUPER bad happens.

7-9: The attempt succeeds in some compromised way, or at a cost.

10+: The attempt succeeds, and some extra good thing happens.


For example ...

6-: Punch Man misses, and breaks his hand.
7-9: Punch Man hit Doctor Evilface, but breaks his hand.
10+: Punch Man knocks Doctor Evilface through the wall.


Maybe hero points could be spent to re-roll?

Ninjadeadbeard
2014-07-29, 11:11 PM
I think it would be better if a cool thing happened every time Punch Man throws a punch, whether or not it lands, and whether or not he spends a hero point. Like maybe ...

2d6 + hero skill - difficulty.

6-: The attempt fails, and something else that's bad happens. Alternatively, the attempt succeeds, and something SUPER bad happens.

7-9: The attempt succeeds in some compromised way, or at a cost.

10+: The attempt succeeds, and some extra good thing happens.


For example ...

6-: Punch Man misses, and breaks his hand.
7-9: Punch Man hit Doctor Evilface, but breaks his hand.
10+: Punch Man knocks Doctor Evilface through the wall.


Maybe hero points could be spent to re-roll?

:smallconfused:

How are any of those in any way similar to a Superhero Comic? Honestly, even that seems like too much thinking for a good ole-rollicking funtime adventure such as a Superhero one.

Alternative to using 2d6 :smallyuk: would be a dice pool system where you count Successes. Punchman's 5 in strength means he can roll 5d6/8/10/12/20 in order to meet or surpass a set number of successes he needs to do a thing.

Ex: Punchman needs to beat a Defense Score for Manhunter, the Insane Robot Australian. Let's assume this score is...5. No idea if that's balanced or fair or what. Punchman needs to roll 3 or better on 5d6's in order to harm Manhunter. If his Strength score were higher, he would more likely accomplish this. Hero Points could add dice to the pool, making a job easier, or they could make any success better.

Punchman punches Manhunter on 5 successes. He uses a hero point to make it 6 successes, or heck even 10. These successes would tick away at some "Health" score until Manhunter fell over or retreated. Or a Hero Point could be used to weaken the Defense Score (1/encounter?), or used to hamper the foe. Punchman could punch Manhunter's arm, reducing his melee combat score, or slow his speed by punching his leg.

Grinner
2014-07-30, 01:16 AM
So ... if a character has a trait of 6, and the miracle costs 6 points, it's free; but if the costs 7 points, it costs the full 7 points? I guess it's simple, but it seems kind of odd.

Ack, no. Sorry. It costs 1 miracle point. You always deduct your rating from the cost of miracle.


I think it would be better if a cool thing happened every time Punch Man throws a punch, whether or not it lands, and whether or not he spends a hero point. Like maybe ...

2d6 + hero skill - difficulty.

6-: The attempt fails, and something else that's bad happens. Alternatively, the attempt succeeds, and something SUPER bad happens.

7-9: The attempt succeeds in some compromised way, or at a cost.

10+: The attempt succeeds, and some extra good thing happens.


For example ...

6-: Punch Man misses, and breaks his hand.
7-9: Punch Man hit Doctor Evilface, but breaks his hand.
10+: Punch Man knocks Doctor Evilface through the wall.


Maybe hero points could be spent to re-roll?


:smallconfused:

How are any of those in any way similar to a Superhero Comic? Honestly, even that seems like too much thinking for a good ole-rollicking funtime adventure such as a Superhero one.

Alternative to using 2d6 :smallyuk: would be a dice pool system where you count Successes. Punchman's 5 in strength means he can roll 5d6/8/10/12/20 in order to meet or surpass a set number of successes he needs to do a thing.

Ex: Punchman needs to beat a Defense Score for Manhunter, the Insane Robot Australian. Let's assume this score is...5. No idea if that's balanced or fair or what. Punchman needs to roll 3 or better on 5d6's in order to harm Manhunter. If his Strength score were higher, he would more likely accomplish this. Hero Points could add dice to the pool, making a job easier, or they could make any success better.

Punchman punches Manhunter on 5 successes. He uses a hero point to make it 6 successes, or heck even 10. These successes would tick away at some "Health" score until Manhunter fell over or retreated. Or a Hero Point could be used to weaken the Defense Score (1/encounter?), or used to hamper the foe. Punchman could punch Manhunter's arm, reducing his melee combat score, or slow his speed by punching his leg.

I actually wanted to avoid dice-rolling, or any sort mechanic with a random component.

Superhero stories are essentially power fantasies. Superheroes are above the indifferent hand of fate. When you roll dice, you strip the player of some of their agency, putting them at the mercy of probability. No, there are never any guarantees of success, but when a superhero resolves to succeed, they do. Theirs is an iron will. Nobilis' mechanic provides an simple, effective way of simulating that while ensuring they do not have the resources to persist indefinitely. On the other hand, a single poor roll will throw the tempo of the game off entirely.

Plus, rolling dice is simply too much thinking.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-30, 01:46 AM
Ack, no. Sorry. It costs 1 miracle point. You always deduct your rating from the cost of miracle.





I actually wanted to avoid dice-rolling, or any sort mechanic with a random component.

Superhero stories are essentially power fantasies. Superheroes are above the indifferent hand of fate. When you roll dice, you strip the player of some of their agency, putting them at the mercy of probability. No, there are never any guarantees of success, but when a superhero resolves to succeed, they do. Theirs is an iron will. Nobilis' mechanic provides an simple, effective way of simulating that while ensuring they do not have the resources to persist indefinitely. On the other hand, a single poor roll will throw the tempo of the game off entirely.

Plus, rolling dice is simply too much thinking.

What if the player has a pool of points they can spend to improve their rolls after the fact? That moves some of the uncertainty away from chance and towards resource management, while still providing challenge.

Grinner
2014-07-30, 01:52 AM
What if the player has a pool of points they can spend to improve their rolls after the fact? That moves some of the uncertainty away from chance and towards resource management, while still providing challenge.

I have considered that; there are parallels; and in a way, it's basically the same thing. However, it is also a rather roundabout method of accomplishing the same thing and thus provides for an equally diluted experience.

Sorry, I've just got this one very strong vision, and I can't let go of it.

Edit: It might be better if I made my own superhero RPG...That's the problem with collaboration, really. Each person comes into the project with their own ideas and preferences, and it becomes a process of compromise, perhaps making the end result weaker for it.

Ninjadeadbeard
2014-07-30, 04:11 AM
If dice are a problem in entire, you could use the Argument System. Players basically have a set number of Advantages (Strong, Trained in Judo, Marksman, Robot Legs, etc), and the more he can stack with advantageous environmental factors (lying low on top of the train to avoid wind resistance, stabbing one's sword into a moving vehicle's roof to hold on, hiding in a shadow, etc), the more the hero succeeds at what he wishes to succeed.

An example I read about: Hero A and Hero B are trying to escape in a van from Villain. One is driving, while the other is having a gun/sword/wizard duel on top. A claims his quickdraw skills, super-speed and cyber-eyes as advantages, and adds Crouching (he uses the moving van to become more stable) to accumulate 4 Advantages. His opponent, Villain counts his Master Swordsmanship, robot-chicken legs, and super-speed as advantages, coming up to 3 advantages. He could increase his advantages to 4 by stabbing his sword into the van, gaining stability. Hero B, on the other hand, has advanced automobile training, advanced reflexes, magically enhanced senses, a map of the city streets on his phone, AND he throws the van into the hardest turns he can manage in order to throw off the attacker.

The players are expected, of course, to come up with as many advantages as they can as the scene develops. The villain could have a grappling arm under his robes, for instance (actually statted in, not BS), which would lead to Hero A trying to add different kung fu and gunslinging moves into the fray in order to gain the most advantages.

The GM would then describe the epic throwdown as it progresses.

This is a stupidly simplified form of the rules. I'd have to hunt down the free PDF again.

Grinner
2014-07-30, 04:39 AM
This is a stupidly simplified form of the rules. I'd have to hunt down the free PDF again.

I want to say I've heard of this somewhere...Was it published by Postmortem Studios?

Chainsaw Hobbit
2014-07-30, 12:03 PM
If dice are a problem in entire, you could use the Argument System. Players basically have a set number of Advantages (Strong, Trained in Judo, Marksman, Robot Legs, etc), and the more he can stack with advantageous environmental factors (lying low on top of the train to avoid wind resistance, stabbing one's sword into a moving vehicle's roof to hold on, hiding in a shadow, etc), the more the hero succeeds at what he wishes to succeed.

An example I read about: Hero A and Hero B are trying to escape in a van from Villain. One is driving, while the other is having a gun/sword/wizard duel on top. A claims his quickdraw skills, super-speed and cyber-eyes as advantages, and adds Crouching (he uses the moving van to become more stable) to accumulate 4 Advantages. His opponent, Villain counts his Master Swordsmanship, robot-chicken legs, and super-speed as advantages, coming up to 3 advantages. He could increase his advantages to 4 by stabbing his sword into the van, gaining stability. Hero B, on the other hand, has advanced automobile training, advanced reflexes, magically enhanced senses, a map of the city streets on his phone, AND he throws the van into the hardest turns he can manage in order to throw off the attacker.

The players are expected, of course, to come up with as many advantages as they can as the scene develops. The villain could have a grappling arm under his robes, for instance (actually statted in, not BS), which would lead to Hero A trying to add different kung fu and gunslinging moves into the fray in order to gain the most advantages.

The GM would then describe the epic throwdown as it progresses.

This is a stupidly simplified form of the rules. I'd have to hunt down the free PDF again.


I have considered that; there are parallels; and in a way, it's basically the same thing. However, it is also a rather roundabout method of accomplishing the same thing and thus provides for an equally diluted experience.

Sorry, I've just got this one very strong vision, and I can't let go of it.

Edit: It might be better if I made my own superhero RPG...That's the problem with collaboration, really. Each person comes into the project with their own ideas and preferences, and it becomes a process of compromise, perhaps making the end result weaker for it.

I'm warming up to the idea of the tension being shifted away from random chance, but I don't want to abandon dice altogether. The resolution mechanic I proposed was probably too swingy and unpredictable. It seems to me, however, that the game would benefit from the giddy uncertainty of some form of random chance.

Have any of you played the d6 version of Grimm? When a character attempts to do something challenging, the roll a d6. On a 2-5, they just compare their base skill of the difficulty of what's being attempted. On a 1 or a 6, they treat their skill as being one point lower or higher than default, respectively. They also roll again and continue modifying their effective until the die lands on something other than a 1 or a 6. They can also gain advantages through collaboration, the use of equipment, or clever planning. (I feel like my explanation was kind of clumsy. Please tell me if you need clarification.)

I imagine that in our game, the player could spend hero points after making the roll to just add points to the roll.

Ninjadeadbeard
2014-07-30, 07:09 PM
I want to say I've heard of this somewhere...Was it published by Postmortem Studios?

Actually it is released for free Here (http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay/argument.pdf). The link is to dyasdesigns.com. I guess that's the publisher.