Move your martials up a tier with Nice Things for Fighters!

[Libertad]

Greetings everyone. Back in early June I just set up and released the first product for my self-publishing company. Quasar Knight Enterprises is a 3rd Party Publisher for the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game, dedicated to bringing new and awesome ideas for your home games!

You can follow me on Twitter for all the latest updates. (https://twitter.com/QuasarKnight)

My products are available at Drive-Thru RPG, (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?manufacturers_id=6738) RPGNow, (http://www.rpgnow.com/browse.php?manufacturers_id=6738) Paizo, (http://paizo.com/companies/quasarKnightEnterprises) and D20 Pathfinder SRD (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/collections/vendors?q=Quasar%20Knight%20Enterprises) under the Quasar Knight Enterprises publisher entry.

One of my products, and the most popular one by far, is Nice Things for Fighters.

http://i.imgur.com/UFAZJMJ.jpg?1

It's been well-documented that in 3.X games the spellcasters have far more options and potential than martial and noncasting classes. To that end I designed a book full of new feats, archetypes, and traits to give martials a leg up without requiring excessive feat trees or optimization to do cool stuff. Many of the feats are easy to qualify for and shore up the most common weaknesses or noncaster martials.


As all of the game mechanics are Open Game Content, I will reprint a few of them here to whet your appetite:


Herculean Strength [Combat]
Whether via excessive training or the bloodline of heroes and giants, you can perform feats of strength otherwise impossible for a creature of your size.
Prerequisites: Strength 15, Barbarian or Fighter level 8th.
Benefit: You treat your Strength as 10 points higher for the purposes of carrying capacity. Additionally, 3 times per day as a standard action you can exert yourself to throw heavy creatures and objects within touch range as per the Violent Thrust entry of the Telekinesis spell, with an effective caster level equal to your hit dice. You must use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls instead of your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (as you’re actually throwing the objects). You can pick up and throw a creature within the weight limit with a successful melee touch attack (no grapple check is necessary).

This is an extraordinary ability.


Mobile Onslaught [Combat]
You move across the battlefield in a blur, striking down any within your reach.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack OR Shot On the Run, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can move up to your base speed while making a full attack or using the flurry of blows class feature. You can split your total number of attacks among targets within your reach or range during the movement, but you can affect no more targets than you have number of attacks.


Grappling Cord Acrobat (Fighter Archetype)

You possess a spring-loaded armband which can shoot out a thick adamantine-enforced cord which can hold the weight of several humans. In addition to obvious mobility benefits, you’re adept at converting the cord’s use to combat applications.

The following are the class features of the Grappling Cord Acrobat:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Grappling Cord Acrobat is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all shields (except for tower shields), and light armor.

Skills: A Grappling Cord Acrobat has Acrobatics as a class skill.

Cord Expertise (Ex): At 1st level, the Grappling Cord Acrobat starts play with a grappling wristband for free, and can use it to make ranged disarm or trip attempts against an opponent within 60 feet as a standard action. Additionally, he can use the cord to move light objects around as per the spell Mage Hand.

This replaces the Fighter’s normal weapon and armor proficiencies.

Cord Grasp (Ex): At 5th level the Grappling Cord Acrobat can shoot his cord at solid objects and surfaces as a move action, pulling himself towards the object if it’s significantly larger (defined as two or more size categories larger), or pulling the object towards him otherwise (up to one size category larger). In the case of inanimate objects, the Grappling Cord Acrobat himself 60 feet per round as a move action if the object’s significantly larger, or the target 30 feet per round as a move action plus 10 feet for every size category smaller the object is than the Acrobat.

In the case of intelligent, mobile targets, the Grappling Cord Acrobat must first make a successful ranged attack in order to perform the action. The acrobat does not provoke attacks of opportunity if he’s using this ability on a significantly larger target and moves through the threatened squares of intervening enemies in his path. If the Grappling Cord Acrobat can pull the target within his threatened reach within the round he shot the cord, then he can make an attack against said enemy as a free action.

This replaces the benefits of weapon training gained at 5th level.

Whiplash (Ex): At 9th level the Grappling Cord Acrobat can use the applications of his Cord Expertise and Cord Grasp abilities as swift actions. Additionally, by tying the grappling cord to a melee weapon, he can treat melee attacks made with that weapon as ranged attacks with a 30 foot range increment. He can choose to apply either his Strength or Dexterity modifier to attack rolls this way, and still applies his Strength modifier to damage rolls.

This replaces the benefits of weapon training gained at 9th level.


I'll be more than happy to answer any questions people have about my work!

[Anlashok]

I love this product just for the title.

Will review soonish.

[Know(Nothing)]

I like what I see so far, and I'm working on my own fix for mundanes at the moment(though it is more geared toward 3.5, since I'm more familiar with it.) Definitely bookmarked for future consideration.

[Chronos]

I like your approach. All too often, when people say that they're making nice stuff for fighters, what they're really doing is just making yet another class that does better than them. I think that the proper solution is just to make a bunch of really good feats, enough of them that different fighters can choose entirely different ones, and good enough that each of them really is worth two levels worth of class features. Which looks like it's basically what you're going for here.

[Libertad]

Thank you. A lot of times people who do fighter fixes simply crank up the numbers of attack and damage without giving the class more tools at their disposal. Even if you can do +100 damage 1/round, you still don't have the versatility and options of skills, movement, spell resistance, reach, and so on and so forth.

Another thing is that there are very few class-exclusive feats for the Fighter. Taking inspiration from Weapon Specialization, I gave a lot of my feats minimum class levels in Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue. This allows for some nice role protection sans heavy multi-classing.

[Shining Wrath]

I'll donate some ideas for free.

Armor Expert
Prerequisite At least one rank in a class with a full BAB progression.
You are expert at using shields and armor in ways that untrained combatants cannot manage.

Any shield you wield adds +1 more to your AC than it did before you took this feat.
Any light armor you wear adds +1 more to your AC than it did before you took this feat.
Any medium or heavy armor you wear adds +2 more to your AC than it did before you took this feat.

You may take this feat multiple times, and the results stack. Explicitly, a character who takes this feat twice adds +2 to the original AC benefit of any shield they wield, +2 to the original AC benefit of any light armor they wear, and add +4 to the original AC benefit of any medium or heavy armor they wear.

A level of a full BAB class is required for each time you take this feat; thus, a human fighter cannot take this feat twice at first level, and a multi-class Fighter 1 / Cleric 2 can only take this feat once.

This benefit stacks fully with magical armor.
====================================

EDIT: I'm using the "level in a class with full BAB progression" language rather than calling out specific classes as there's just so many classes - over a thousand, IIRC. So Barbarian, Crusader, Duskblade, Fighter, Knight, Hexblade, Paladin and Warblade qualify, but Cleric, Druid, & Swordsage do not.

[Shining Wrath]

Another freebie:

Swift Defender
Prerequisite BAB > 5, at least one level in a class with a full BAB progression
You can react quickly to someone trying to move past you in combat

As a reaction, you may take a 5' step when it is not your turn and make a single attack at your highest attack bonus after doing so.
If you use this ability, you lose the ability to take a 5' step on your next turn and may not make a full attack.

[bekeleven]

Thank you. A lot of times people who do fighter fixes simply crank up the numbers of attack and damage without giving the class more tools at their disposal. Even if you can do +100 damage 1/round, you still don't have the versatility and options of skills, movement, spell resistance, reach, and so on and so forth.

Another thing is that there are very few class-exclusive feats for the Fighter. Taking inspiration from Weapon Specialization, I gave a lot of my feats minimum class levels in Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue. This allows for some nice role protection sans heavy multi-classing.

Eh. Fighters really need versatility, but not damage. Even Tippy's stated that a Wizard can vastly increase its DPS with a fighter gestalt.

To that end, my fix for the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332829) was mostly to make a strict superset of its abilities focused on versatility.

[Emperor Tippy]

Eh. Fighters really need versatility, but not damage. Even Tippy's stated that a Wizard can vastly increase its DPS with a fighter gestalt.

That's because you get full BAB and, most importantly, 10 extra feats to chaos shuffle into metamagic and similar feats.

Wizard//Fighter gestalt uses the Fighter half for HD, Fort Saves, BAB, and as a feat battery.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I see more feat chains, ability score prerequisites (that can be taken away with magic, easily), and really nothing nice for fighters.

Mobile Onslaught seems nice, but outside of uber charging it won't be effective (it can be used as pounce)... Plus you have to take two crappy feats and one Meh (spring attack and shot on the run should be part of the base rules) and wait till most games are almost over for you to get this (most games last 8-12 levels). You even need a Dex of 13 to get mobility, so if you want to do melee damage... People may go TWF which sucks for damage on a class without a bonus damage mechanic or take a hit on their other ability scores since you want a Strength focus build.

I would rather just get shock trooper from 3.5 and make my one big attack really big. Also I'll be able to put those points from Dex into another score, like Int so I can get at least 2 skill points per level.

The Cord for the acrobat seems nice, but is vastly over shadowed by so many other abilities at those levels from other classes. You get mage hand and distance tripping/disarming at level 1? Sorry but the CMB/CMD system math is borked so that won't last long.

And why would I give up all armor, shields, and weapon proficiencies so I can get a grappling cord? You give the fighter certain proficiencies and then take them away with cord expertise..:smallconfused:

Last thing, why does everything have to be based on a spell? If I wanted to give my fighter nice things via spells (mage hand and telekinesis thrust) I would just pick a class such as the Cleric or Magus which gives me a fighter with nice things. Herculean Strength is ok, but it comes on at level 8...

My advise is to stop trying to balance what you give the fighter with what the fighter already has. The pathfinder fighter sucks (except for lore warden) because it is so badly broken in the wrong way.

Why should a fighter have to wait 8 levels to throw an enemy around like a rag doll (note: I love setting sun), I though extraordinary meant EXTRAordinary not extraORDINARY you know.

Also should this be in homebrew?

[Libertad]

I see more feat chains, ability score prerequisites (that can be taken away with magic, easily), and really nothing nice for fighters.

The vast majority of feats in the book take 0-1 prior feats to take. Mobile Onslaught is more the exception. 31 of the feats only require 0 or 1 other feats before they can be taken. And there are 43 feats total in Nice Things for Fighters.

All but 2 of them require more than 2 feats as a prerequisite, and those are Hydra's Rush (3 feats) and Mobile Onslaught (3 feats).

So most of the cool things don't require feat-intensive builds. If anything, the steepest prerequisites are stuff like Fighter level 7+ to encourage niche protection.


Mobile Onslaught seems nice, but outside of uber charging it won't be effective (it can be used as pounce)... Plus you have to take two crappy feats and one Meh (spring attack and shot on the run should be part of the base rules) and wait till most games are almost over for you to get this (most games last 8-12 levels). You even need a Dex of 13 to get mobility, so if you want to do melee damage... People may go TWF which sucks for damage on a class without a bonus damage mechanic or take a hit on their other ability scores since you want a Strength focus build.

I would rather just get shock trooper from 3.5 and make my one big attack really big. Also I'll be able to put those points from Dex into another score, like Int so I can get at least 2 skill points per level.

Shock Trooper is not available in Pathfinder. The ability to move and full attack without charging is a big upgrade for a martial ability. Plus not all games start at 1st level.


The Cord for the acrobat seems nice, but is vastly over shadowed by so many other abilities at those levels from other classes. You get mage hand and distance tripping/disarming at level 1? Sorry but the CMB/CMD system math is borked so that won't last long.

And why would I give up all armor, shields, and weapon proficiencies so I can get a grappling cord? You give the fighter certain proficiencies and then take them away with cord expertise..:smallconfused:

They also begin play for free with a grappling wristband, which can be used like a rope and entangle opponents at range (as the equipment, no archetype required). The archetype is useful for allowing the fighter to move in the air and in 3 dimensions, like the protagonists from Attack on Titan. At 5th level a wizard can cast Fly. At 9th level they can cast Overland Flight. That to me is worth more than heavy armor which can be gained via a 1-dip multiclass, or Weapon Training which grants piddly bonuses to attack and damage. The ability to effectively turn your melee attack into a ranged attack really helps the fighter reach opponents. Plus entangling a foe in mid-air causes them to begin falling.


Last thing, why does everything have to be based on a spell? If I wanted to give my fighter nice things via spells (mage hand and telekinesis thrust) I would just pick a class such as the Cleric or Magus which gives me a fighter with nice things. Herculean Strength is ok, but it comes on at level 8...

Not everything is based on a spell. This feat is but a small sample from a 32 page book. The reason it's at level 8 is because Telekinesis is a 5th level spell. Spells don't cost prerequisites, and can be traded out any time by prepared casters. In exchange for this feat, the Barbarian/Fighter gets a nice ranged/battlefield control thing and a carrying capacity boost to mimic the super-strength as seen in many pieces of mythology.

That, and spells are pretty much the bread and butter of Pathfinder. Allowing martial classes to replicate their effects is a good thing.


My advise is to stop trying to balance what you give the fighter with what the fighter already has. The pathfinder fighter sucks (except for lore warden) because it is so badly broken in the wrong way.

A lot of the new mechanics are things which cannot be easily done by existing Pathfinder martial without heavy optimization or dumpster-diving through books.


Also should this be in homebrew?

If it's a professional work, then it's not homebrew in my eyes.

[Chronos]

So most of the cool things don't require feat-intensive builds. If anything, the steepest prerequisites are stuff like Fighter level 7+ to encourage niche protection.
Actually, that part I don't like. One thing I like about 3.5 is its modularity: Specific classes are almost never mentioned for things like prerequisites. Instead of a requirement like "Must be a 3rd-level druid", you'll see "Must be able to cast Summon Nature's Ally II". Instead of "Must be a bard", you'll see "Must have the ability to Inspire Courage". This is good, because there are all sorts of classes out there, even more if you open up to homebrew, some of them very similar to each other, and this lets similar classes use the same options without opening up arguments about whether they're similar enough or not. The same should be true for fighters: What makes a fighter distinctive is having lots and lots of feats, so if you want something to be specifically for fighters, then you should make it require lots and lots of feats. This doesn't even necessarily need to be conventional feat chains (though that's certainly one option): You could even just make something with the prerequisite "Must have eight other feats", or something like that.

[Miss Disaster]

Libertad, this looks great! I'll go pick it up this week.

Quick question, I understand why you'd opt to make this supplement based on PF and not the long-extinct 3.5 ..... but how difficulty would it be to backport/convert these rules to 3.5 play?

[Zombulian]

Did you... did you make a Fighter archetype that's Spiderman?
Did that actually just happen?


I think I love you.

[Libertad]

Libertad, this looks great! I'll go pick it up this week.

Quick question, I understand why you'd opt to make this supplement based on PF and not the long-extinct 3.5 ..... but how difficulty would it be to backport/convert these rules to 3.5 play?

It will take some work, but more than a few feats can be used unchanged.

Here's how I'd implement things: increase skill rank prerequisites by 3 points; Ol' Faithful can be disregarded as it's specifically designed for Pathfinder firearms from Ultimate Combat; for Quick Maneuvers, combat maneuvers include bull rush, disarm, feint, trip, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. The Steadfast feat grants a +10 bonus on resistance-based die rolls against said actions. For undead slayer, ignore the entry about bleed damage. Consult the Weapon Training (http://paizo.com/prd/classes/fighter.html) class feature of the Pathfinder Fighter so see what parts the Versatile Weaponry feat effects.

Archetypes are pretty much a Pathfinder-exclusive thing. As they replace things of the new stuff for the Pathfinder fighter, they can be added as-is to the Fighter. For the Bombardier, look up the alchemist. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist)

PCs can take up to 2 traits.


Did you... did you make a Fighter archetype that's Spiderman?
Did that actually just happen?


I think I love you.

Spider-Man did not immediately come to mind, but that's a totally valid character interpretation. My primary inspiration came from Rico Rodriguez of Just Cause 2, a CIA agent in an 80s-style action-adventure who uses a grappling hook to do all sorts of cool stuff. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2RclTKBhKk)




Actually, that part I don't like. One thing I like about 3.5 is its modularity: Specific classes are almost never mentioned for things like prerequisites. Instead of a requirement like "Must be a 3rd-level druid", you'll see "Must be able to cast Summon Nature's Ally II". Instead of "Must be a bard", you'll see "Must have the ability to Inspire Courage". This is good, because there are all sorts of classes out there, even more if you open up to homebrew, some of them very similar to each other, and this lets similar classes use the same options without opening up arguments about whether they're similar enough or not. The same should be true for fighters: What makes a fighter distinctive is having lots and lots of feats, so if you want something to be specifically for fighters, then you should make it require lots and lots of feats. This doesn't even necessarily need to be conventional feat chains (though that's certainly one option): You could even just make something with the prerequisite "Must have eight other feats", or something like that.

The problem with feat trees is that it encourages several levels worth of planning and optimization to do something cool. All the while class features and spells can be immediately taken without doing the dumpster-diving through rulebooks mini-game. Even worse, it actually makes creating good fighters a chore for new players, something I intentionally avoided. A prerequisite of 8 feats would require a human fighter to be 7th level and have sunk all their feat options already. Let Fighters have cool, strong, easy-to-meet prerequisites and pick and choose what they want. Think of it feats as food at a buffet; you shouldn't have to load up on other food before taking the one you really want.

In Pathfinder there are not too many non-casting martial classes beyond the Core Rulebook. The Cavalier and Gunslinger are pretty much it. I'm not a fan of firearms in Pathfinder as is, so a rework would probably be for another book. The Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue are all core and see more use in campaigns than the Cavalier, so I focused on them.

[illyahr]

My fighter wants nice things, too. :smalltongue:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The vast majority of feats in the book take 0-1 prior feats to take. Mobile Onslaught is more the exception. 31 of the feats only require 0 or 1 other feats before they can be taken. And there are 43 feats total in Nice Things for Fighters.

All but 2 of them require more than 2 feats as a prerequisite, and those are Hydra's Rush (3 feats) and Mobile Onslaught (3 feats).

So most of the cool things don't require feat-intensive builds. If anything, the steepest prerequisites are stuff like Fighter level 7+ to encourage niche protection.



Shock Trooper is not available in Pathfinder. The ability to move and full attack without charging is a big upgrade for a martial ability. Plus not all games start at 1st level.



They also begin play for free with a grappling wristband, which can be used like a rope and entangle opponents at range (as the equipment, no archetype required). The archetype is useful for allowing the fighter to move in the air and in 3 dimensions, like the protagonists from Attack on Titan. At 5th level a wizard can cast Fly. At 9th level they can cast Overland Flight. That to me is worth more than heavy armor which can be gained via a 1-dip multiclass, or Weapon Training which grants piddly bonuses to attack and damage. The ability to effectively turn your melee attack into a ranged attack really helps the fighter reach opponents. Plus entangling a foe in mid-air causes them to begin falling.



Not everything is based on a spell. This feat is but a small sample from a 32 page book. The reason it's at level 8 is because Telekinesis is a 5th level spell. Spells don't cost prerequisites, and can be traded out any time by prepared casters. In exchange for this feat, the Barbarian/Fighter gets a nice ranged/battlefield control thing and a carrying capacity boost to mimic the super-strength as seen in many pieces of mythology.

That, and spells are pretty much the bread and butter of Pathfinder. Allowing martial classes to replicate their effects is a good thing.



A lot of the new mechanics are things which cannot be easily done by existing Pathfinder martial without heavy optimization or dumpster-diving through books.



If it's a professional work, then it's not homebrew in my eyes.

And how many of those 1 feat taxes are crappy feats? You should probably post things that are part of the rule and not the exception.

You work isn't available to pathfinder either unless a DM specifically allows it. Pathfinder is 3.5.1 and shock trooper works just fine in the system, hell the barbarian gets a watered down version of the ability set as a rage power.

What I said was, by how you have it worded, the Fighter loses all armor and weapon profs except for the cord. Because you have a line within the cord expertise that says it replaces all fighter armor and weapon profs.

Again, why choose things that are exception to the rules to preview instead of the general abilities of the book? The fact that you say that spells are the bread and butter of pathfinder and you are just mimicking spell levels and effects... Really shows that the fighter isn't getting nice things, they are just copying magic. Magic has the nice things not the fighter.

Basically this material is right in line with Paizo stuff, very Meh. If I see something that is actually nice for martial/fighters then I may change my opinion, but until then... I don't see anything that would push me to want to buy another Paizo-esc book.

[Chronos]

Quoth Libertad:

A prerequisite of 8 feats would require a human fighter to be 7th level and have sunk all their feat options already.
Being a character at all requires you to have sunk all of your feat options. You can't save them up for later. It's possible you were misunderstanding what I was saying there: I don't mean a prerequisite of "This feat, that feat, that other feat" and so on; I mean a prerequisite of "Must have 8 feats". That would mean that every 6th-level human fighter would qualify, no matter what previous choices they'd made, since they'd be guaranteed to have 8 feats.

[Larkas]

Actually, that part I don't like. One thing I like about 3.5 is its modularity: Specific classes are almost never mentioned for things like prerequisites. Instead of a requirement like "Must be a 3rd-level druid", you'll see "Must be able to cast Summon Nature's Ally II". Instead of "Must be a bard", you'll see "Must have the ability to Inspire Courage". This is good, because there are all sorts of classes out there, even more if you open up to homebrew, some of them very similar to each other, and this lets similar classes use the same options without opening up arguments about whether they're similar enough or not. The same should be true for fighters: What makes a fighter distinctive is having lots and lots of feats, so if you want something to be specifically for fighters, then you should make it require lots and lots of feats. This doesn't even necessarily need to be conventional feat chains (though that's certainly one option): You could even just make something with the prerequisite "Must have eight other feats", or something like that.

You were going so well until the bolded part...

Here's the thing, Libertad, and please note that this is just my opinion: the Fighter doesn't need niche protection, it needs niche expansion. And all it really needs are lots of awesome feats, not necessarily exclusive feats. Let's say you have this awesome feat in your book that requires Fighter 8 to get. What would changing that to +8 BAB do? It would open it up for every other full BAB class at 8th level, and 3/4 BAB at 10th. Does that negatively affect the Fighter? Not if he had 8 other great feats to take! The Fighter already has a niche that is pretty much protected and unique, as shown by Tippy: he is the "Feat Master". No one gets as many feats as him! He is just a step away from morphing that into "Combat Master", and that step is labeled "great, varied feats". So what if the Barbarian or heck, even the Cleric, can take one trick by taking the respective feat? They can take one trick, the Fighter can take all of them! Well, 21+ of them, but you got what I said. (And if you want a Monk to access the feat at the same level as full BAB classes, put a "+8 BAB or Monk 8" prerequisite, for example.)

One more thing: in case you are working with feat trees, I propose an entirely different take on the subject: make it so you have a positive feedback from taking the feats in a tree, but so you are not required to taking them. I'll explain: you can take feat A or feat B independently, but if you take them both at the same time, you unlock ability C, and maybe even ability D. This is not too dissimilar from 3.5's take on skill synergy, for example, but applied to feats! It should be obvious how Fighters can benefit more from this setup than other classes! If you take this route, though, don't fall into the temptation of making the base feats any less awesome! Taking them alone should be worth it, even if you don't expect to finish any "synch abilities".

[Crazysaneman]

Wow. Just wow. Not to pick on anyone in particular but the friggin books name is Nice Things for Fighters, not Things that Completely Shift the Fighter Paradigm Into A Martial Casting Class. It is a book of options for existing classes, not a book to over op with. Calm down and enjoy actually playing the game you're trying to break.

I really like the idea of having a fighter flying around the battlefield roping himself a ogre like some kind of mad cowboy stuck in Attack on Titans. Or of a fighter that chucks that ogre into a group of goblins, like a crazy bowler. These are options to help achieve ideas not become OP gods.

However, if a DM allowed 3.P in his game and did a little houseruling, herculean strength attached to a hulking hurler build would be funny as heck.

PS... As a Pathfinder DM if the book is published on their site I would allow it in PF only games. Just my 2 coppers.

[Libertad]

You work isn't available to pathfinder either unless a DM specifically allows it. .

Same can be said about any 3rd Party work. I don't see how this is a flaw or weakness on my part.


What I said was, by how you have it worded, the Fighter loses all armor and weapon profs except for the cord. Because you have a line within the cord expertise that says it replaces all fighter armor and weapon profs.

No, this is how all Pathfinder archetypes are worded with weapon and armor proficiency replacements. This is a class feature, listed here:


Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Grappling Cord Acrobat is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all shields (except for tower shields), and light armor.

As I said before, all a Grappling Cord Acrobat loses is medium and heavy armor proficiency. The cord class feature replaces the Fighter's normal weapon and armor proficiencies, not the altered version.



Being a character at all requires you to have sunk all of your feat options. You can't save them up for later. It's possible you were misunderstanding what I was saying there: I don't mean a prerequisite of "This feat, that feat, that other feat" and so on; I mean a prerequisite of "Must have 8 feats". That would mean that every 6th-level human fighter would qualify, no matter what previous choices they'd made, since they'd be guaranteed to have 8 feats.

This really boils down to preference in game design. I prefer the way I did it.


You were going so well until the bolded part...

Here's the thing, Libertad, and please note that this is just my opinion: the Fighter doesn't need niche protection, it needs niche expansion. And all it really needs are lots of awesome feats, not necessarily exclusive feats. Let's say you have this awesome feat in your book that requires Fighter 8 to get. What would changing that to +8 BAB do? It would open it up for every other full BAB class at 8th level, and 3/4 BAB at 10th. Does that negatively affect the Fighter? Not if he had 8 other great feats to take! The Fighter already has a niche that is pretty much protected and unique, as shown by Tippy: he is the "Feat Master". No one gets as many feats as him! He is just a step away from morphing that into "Combat Master", and that step is labeled "great, varied feats". So what if the Barbarian or heck, even the Cleric, can take one trick by taking the respective feat? They can take one trick, the Fighter can take all of them! Well, 21+ of them, but you got what I said. (And if you want a Monk to access the feat at the same level as full BAB classes, put a "+8 BAB or Monk 8" prerequisite, for example.)

A Fighter should be more than a feat master; the class should have cool effective things unique to it alone. Weapon Specialization has its heart in the right place, but all it gives is a flat piddly damage bonus. As it is, almost all of Pathfinder's existing [Combat] feats in Paizo books don't have Fighter level X prerequisites. They can be taken by anybody eventually.

[Larkas]

A Fighter should be more than a feat master; the class should have cool effective things unique to it alone. Weapon Specialization has its heart in the right place, but all it gives is a flat piddly damage bonus. As it is, almost all of Pathfinder's existing [Combat] feats in Paizo books don't have Fighter level X prerequisites. They can be taken by anybody eventually.

And how is that a problem again? Don't get me wrong, this is your book, you can do whatever you like with it, and frankly enough, I liked what I saw. However, the other "martials" need as much nice things as the Fighter! The Fighter is unique in that he can (potentially) do lots of nice things at the same time! Let's suppose there are 5 maneuvers enabled by feats, all very nice and useful in different situations. The Barbarian might take one to shore up any perceived weaknesses, the Monk might specialize in two, and the Paladin can strive to take all five to better enable him to overcome his opponents without killing them. The Fighter can take the same 5 feats as the Paladin, in 5 levels (versus the paladin 10), and in the 5 levels the Paladin will spend playing catch up with him, the Fighter will have taken another 5 different feats enabling him to do some other cool stuff. If the feats are good enough, the Fighter will be able to do at least 21 nice things, which are ought to be unique in a 4-6 people group. The key is that the feats must be good. Bonus points if they interact with each other, but that'll only work if they're good enough on their own. What I'm trying to say is, if the feats are as good as class features, then the Fighter will have as many class features as other martial classes. And it doesn't matter if the Paladin, the Barbarian, or even the Wizard can join in the fun: the Fighter will still have 11 "nice things" more than these, and be balanced on the number of "class features" overall (with the other martial, mundane classes, of course). That is even more true if there's feat interactions: the Fighter has 20 potential interactions, whereas everyone else only has 9. If these are as good as class features... Well, you know where I'm going with this.

Anyways, I'll reaffirm once more: this is your book, you can do whatever you feel is right with it. These are just my opinions on the subject, so feel free to disregard them. And I won't press these points any further. Best of luck with your product! I'll be sure to check it out :smallsmile:

[Threadnaught]

As it is, almost all of Pathfinder's existing [Combat] feats in Paizo books don't have Fighter level X prerequisites. They can be taken by anybody eventually.


And how is that a problem again?

Well let's take a look at some Feats and which Classes have the Prerequisites as Class Features.

Natural Spell: Druid
Crafting: Casters
Familiar Feats (beside Item): Arcane Casters
Ascetic Knight: Paladin
Battle Blessing: Cleric and Paladin
Frozen Berserker: Barbarian
Divine Metamagic: Cleric
Savvy Rogue: Rogue
Craven: Rogue
Requiem: Bard
Animal Companion Feats: Druid and Ranger


This is just from skimming. Fighters have nothing that only they can take, if you advance a Wizard to level 200 using only Wizard levels, they can get a load of Fighter Bonus Feats no problem. Bonus Feats are not Class Features, they are merely an additional resource to be used along with Class Features, of which the Fighter doesn't get any.
Yeah sure, with dips and ACFs you can make sweeping changes to which Classes are allowed what in this list, but that's spending far too much time picking at the nits, and not enough time to step back and see the Fighter for what it is.
Completely devoid of Class Features.

[Zombulian]

Well let's take a look at some Feats and which Classes have the Prerequisites as Class Features.

Natural Spell: Druid
Crafting: Casters
Familiar Feats (beside Item): Arcane Casters
Ascetic Knight: Paladin
Battle Blessing: Cleric and Paladin
Frozen Berserker: Barbarian
Divine Metamagic: Cleric
Savvy Rogue: Rogue
Craven: Rogue
Requiem: Bard
Animal Companion Feats: Druid and Ranger


This is just from skimming. Fighters have nothing that only they can take, if you advance a Wizard to level 200 using only Wizard levels, they can get a load of Fighter Bonus Feats no problem. Bonus Feats are not Class Features, they are merely an additional resource to be used along with Class Features, of which the Fighter doesn't get any.
Yeah sure, with dips and ACFs you can make sweeping changes to which Classes are allowed what in this list, but that's spending far too much time picking at the nits, and not enough time to step back and see the Fighter for what it is.
Completely devoid of Class Features.

Actually no. Weapon Supremacy, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization. All of those and their kin require a minimum amount of Fighter levels. But the point stands that while they are exclusive, they're terrible.

[Larkas]

This is just from skimming. Fighters have nothing that only they can take, if you advance a Wizard to level 200 using only Wizard levels, they can get a load of Fighter Bonus Feats no problem. Bonus Feats are not Class Features, they are merely an additional resource to be used along with Class Features, of which the Fighter doesn't get any.
Yeah sure, with dips and ACFs you can make sweeping changes to which Classes are allowed what in this list, but that's spending far too much time picking at the nits, and not enough time to step back and see the Fighter for what it is.
Completely devoid of Class Features.

I'm not exactly new around these parts, I know exactly what the problem with Fighters are. A small part of it is its complete lack of class features, not a lack of unique class features. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a few "fighter only" feats (I should've been more clear on this from the start), I'm just saying that it doesn't need any niche protection because, given good enough feats, he can hold his own pretty well. It's not stellar class design, but it can be made to work - with good enough feats, not exclusive feats. Sure, toss them a bone, say that a few great (and I do mean GREAT, not Weapon Specialization-like crap) feats are "fighter only", but seeing as the rest of the mundane martials (past and, and I'm sadly willing to bet here, future) also need help, they can benefit from access to a handful of good feats. Just my 2cp. Take it or ignore it, it's all the same to me.

EDIT: Partially swordsage'd by Zombulian.

[Cowardly Griffo]

The problem with feat trees is that it encourages several levels worth of planning and optimization to do something cool. All the while class features and spells can be immediately taken without doing the dumpster-diving through rulebooks mini-game. Even worse, it actually makes creating good fighters a chore for new players, something I intentionally avoided. A prerequisite of 8 feats would require a human fighter to be 7th level and have sunk all their feat options already. Let Fighters have cool, strong, easy-to-meet prerequisites and pick and choose what they want. Think of it feats as food at a buffet; you shouldn't have to load up on other food before taking the one you really want.This paragraph earned you another customer, sir.

...Though the Attack on Spidertitan archetype didn't hurt either. :smalltongue:

Edit: content quality notwithstanding, your pdf really needs bookmarks for quick navigation, or at minimum a table of contents. I know it's a smallish pdf, but still: I'd like to be able to at least go directly to each archetype without having to memorize what the page numbers are.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Same can be said about any 3rd Party work. I don't see how this is a flaw or weakness on my part.

No, this is how all Pathfinder archetypes are worded with weapon and armor proficiency replacements. This is a class feature, listed here:

As I said before, all a Grappling Cord Acrobat loses is medium and heavy armor proficiency. The cord class feature replaces the Fighter's normal weapon and armor proficiencies, not the altered version.

This really boils down to preference in game design. I prefer the way I did it.



I didn't say it was a flaw, just that since we are talking about a 3rd party book you can't use the "oh that's 3.5 material" because 3.5 material is closer to the source rules than your rules are. Plus if you are going on the notion that 3rd party is allowed (which doesn't happen all that often actually) then one can include 3.5 material.

The way you have the "this replaces the fighter's proficiencies" worded and in the same paragraph is what is wrong. You would need to separate it to make it its own thought. Like the Lore Warden...
Scholastic (Ex)
"Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

This ability replaces the lore warden’s proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields."

The lore warden doesn't call out what proficiencies they have and then give an ability that takes them away. You have the acrobat gaining X proficiencies but then gaining a feature that replaces the fighter proficiencies. You really just need to get rid of the weapon and armor proficiencies above the Cord Acrobat and then call out specifically what the fighter looses and not the blanket statement it.

The way you prefer to do things, or at least what you present, just doesn't give fighters nice things.

[Chronos]

Quoth Threadnaught:

Well let's take a look at some Feats and which Classes have the Prerequisites as Class Features.

Natural Spell: Druid
Crafting: Casters
Familiar Feats (beside Item): Arcane Casters
Ascetic Knight: Paladin
Battle Blessing: Cleric and Paladin
Frozen Berserker: Barbarian
Divine Metamagic: Cleric
Savvy Rogue: Rogue
Craven: Rogue
Requiem: Bard
Animal Companion Feats: Druid and Ranger
And none (or almost none; I didn't check all of them) of those have "Must be X class" as a prerequisite. Natural Spell requires the Wild Shape class feature. Crafting feats require a caster level. Divine Metamagic requires Turn Undead. Craven requires Sneak Attack. My point is that if you want something analogous for fighters, it should not say "Prerequisite: Must be a fighter"; it should say "Prerequisite: Must have X many feats". If you want to exclude all the other core base classes, then make X high enough that you couldn't get that many feats without being a fighter. It's the same effect in a core environment, but meshes better with the rest of the system if you expand.

[Larkas]

And none (or almost none; I didn't check all of them) of those have "Must be X class" as a prerequisite. Natural Spell requires the Wild Shape class feature. Crafting feats require a caster level. Divine Metamagic requires Turn Undead. Craven requires Sneak Attack. My point is that if you want something analogous for fighters, it should not say "Prerequisite: Must be a fighter"; it should say "Prerequisite: Must have X many feats". If you want to exclude all the other core base classes, then make X high enough that you couldn't get that many feats without being a fighter. It's the same effect in a core environment, but meshes better with the rest of the system if you expand.

Hmmm, makes a lot of sense.

[Threadnaught]

And none (or almost none; I didn't check all of them) of those have "Must be X class" as a prerequisite.

Note, I didn't make any mention of them being exclusive Feats for those Classes, nor did I suggest Class Features were unique to the Core Class that has them.

With ACFs, nearly any Class can have just about any Class Feature.

My point is, Fighter has no Class Feature.
People don't usually look at Fighter as a component for builds because they need to qualify for a certain Feat. They look to Fighter when they need more Feat slots to pick up a certain Feat with.

[ranagrande]

This does look like a step in the right direction, but like most "Fighter fixes" it doesn't go far enough. All a fighter gets are feats, so new and improved feats are the answer; on that I agree. But they shouldn't just be more of the same kind of incremental mundane feats so prevalent in existing rulebooks. Fighters need ridiculous over-the-top feats that people could look at and think "Maybe, in some circumstances, it might be worth it not be a spellcaster so I could do that."

I want to see feat chains that let characters wield two two-handed weapons in each hand or wear heavy armor on top of medium armor on top of light armor with all of the bonuses stacking, or feats that allow a character to threaten every square he sees.

Does your book have anything like that?

[Libertad]

This does look like a step in the right direction, but like most "Fighter fixes" it doesn't go far enough. All a fighter gets are feats, so new and improved feats are the answer; on that I agree. But they shouldn't just be more of the same kind of incremental mundane feats so prevalent in existing rulebooks. Fighters need ridiculous over-the-top feats that people could look at and think "Maybe, in some circumstances, it might be worth it not be a spellcaster so I could do that."

I want to see feat chains that let characters wield two two-handed weapons in each hand or wear heavy armor on top of medium armor on top of light armor with all of the bonuses stacking, or feats that allow a character to threaten every square he sees.

Does your book have anything like that?

My feats aren't mostly static number increases. They grant more versatility for martials, more options for them to take in combat.

For feats closest to what you want:

Spellfoil forces enemy spellcasters within the user's threatened range to succeed on a concentration check in order to use a spell. Mage's Bane extends the range to all enemy casters within line of sight.

Second Skin virtually negates all of the penalties associated with wearing heavy armor.

Strength of the Titan (requiring Herculean Strength) treats your size category as three larger for the purposes of CMB and the size of wielded weapons.


I wouldn't call my feats ridiculous, but they have been designed to be attractive options for non-casters.

[CommandTortoise]

...or feats that allow a character to threaten every square he sees.

A feat which does that would have to be called 'Seeing is Bereaving'.


...Carry on.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This does look like a step in the right direction, but like most "Fighter fixes" it doesn't go far enough. All a fighter gets are feats, so new and improved feats are the answer; on that I agree. But they shouldn't just be more of the same kind of incremental mundane feats so prevalent in existing rulebooks. Fighters need ridiculous over-the-top feats that people could look at and think "Maybe, in some circumstances, it might be worth it not be a spellcaster so I could do that."

I want to see feat chains that let characters wield two two-handed weapons in each hand or wear heavy armor on top of medium armor on top of light armor with all of the bonuses stacking, or feats that allow a character to threaten every square he sees.

Does your book have anything like that?

Feat chains and feats are the exact opposite way to go. Even if you made "fighter only feats" and scaling feats... You are still taking a class feature and chopping it up.

If Tome of Battle, 4e, and now 5e had taught us anything it is that the system in which made the fighter in 3.0 has underlain problems that just can't be fixed by throwing more at it.

How about this new thing the kids are doing, called class features. You could give the fighter a list of class features that are balanced against say... An equal level Bard or Sorcerer or Barbarian (yeah even that would be a step up).

Something only fighters can take that actually makes them EXTRAordinary and not just magic's little brother.

Oh, and stop with the stupid fiddly little bonuses that give you +1 here or +2 in a random situation. Last time I checked most spells were worth more than a flat +1 when you are underwater basket weaving.

So if you want to go the route of fighter only feats then do at least one thing and one thing only. Balance them against class features and not against other feats.