Flying Dragonborn Gish...how do?

[PangolinPie]

I really should just change my screen name to "Indecisive_Player" or something....but yeah...

Human (flexible on that) with Dragonborn template, opting for wings over the breath weapon, figuring I can do just as much with spellcasting, but not sure how to make the best use out of my flying ability in regards to the build. I could do an arcane buffer with a few blaster spells and feats like flyby attack and dive-bomb using the Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant levels kamikaze style or I could go with a build I saw on the Gish Handbook thread that's Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Archer 10 and just attack from a distance...

...or should I just throw the gish idea out the window completely, go full evocationer, stock up on wands and rain down some fiery doom from the heavens?

Also not interested in the Dragonwrought Kobold angle...

(PS: Only two other players in my group have decided on anything; a Naga Constrictor Grappler build and a Rogue Illusionist going Shadowcraft Mage)

[Dorian Gray]

Charge attacks from above should work, yes. Try to convince your DM to let you use the Raptoran feats from Races of the Wild- I'm fairly sure they had some that let you get bonus damage on a flying charge. Other than that, just stack power attack multipliers on top of power attack multipliers- use a lance for bonus damage, and put the valorous enchantment on it for even more damage.

[Darrin]

Human (flexible on that) with Dragonborn template, opting for wings over the breath weapon, figuring I can do just as much with spellcasting, but not sure how to make the best use out of my flying ability in regards to the build.


There are a couple quirks to Dragonborn of Bahumat you might want to look into. First, as part of the transformation, you can swap one of your existing feats for either Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. So if you want both the flight and breath weapon, you can take the Heart aspect and be just one feat away from full flight by taking Improved Dragon Wings.

The second quirk comes from a careful reading of "The Mechanics of Rebirth":

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have."

This means if you're a Human Wizard, you can keep the human bonus feat and lose Scribe Scroll instead. Here's a list of base classes and ACFs that offer feats via class levels:


Archivist 1: Scribe Scroll
Artificer 1/2: Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion
Barbarian 1: Toughness/Improved Grapple/Great Fortitude (Bear Totem), Blind-Fight (Dragon Totem), Run (Lion Totem), Roofwalker (Cityscape ACF)
Bard 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bola Flail (Ghostwalk)
Bard 3: swap Inspire Competence for Soothe the Beast (ECS Music of Creation)
Beguiler 5: Silent Spell
Cleric 1: Various domains grant bonus feats, or go Cloistered and three Devotion feats to choose from.
Divine Mind 1: Wild Talent (yeah, very iffy)
Duskblade 2: Combat Casting
Dragonfire Adept 1: Dragontouched
Dragon Shaman 2: Skill Focus
Druid 1: Track (Druidic Avenger variant, Unearthed Arcana)
Druid 4: Strong Stomach ACF (Cityscape WE)
Favored Soul 3: Weapon Focus
Fighter 1: Exotic Shield Proficiency (Races of Stone variant rule)
Healer 2: Skill Focus
Hexblade 4: bonus feat
Knight 2: Mounted Combat
Marshall 1: Skill Focus
Monk 1/2: Yeah, let me know when that Stunning Fist thing ever actually works.
Psion 1: bonus feat
Ranger 1: Track
Ranger 3: Endurance
Rogue 1/2: Fighter Bonus Feat variant (Unearthed Arcana)
Samurai 1: EWP Bastard Sword
Soulknife 1: Weapon Focus, Wild Talent
Sorcerer 1: Draconic Heritage (RotD sub level)
Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
Warblade 5: bonus feat
Warmage 7: Sudden Empower
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Wu Jen 1: bonus feat




I could do an arcane buffer with a few blaster spells and feats like flyby attack and dive-bomb using the Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant levels kamikaze style or I could go with a build I saw on the Gish Handbook thread that's Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Archer 10 and just attack from a distance...


I'm kinda partial to:

Warblade 1/Martial Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4.

[Mato]

I'd remain a gish, fantasy stories printed always have the main hero able to use a sword and spells in some manner.

Dragonborn with wings are already capable of performing a dive attack for double damage, I suggest a halbred since it's the largest piercing damage martial weapon in core. Feats like battle jump and enhancements like valorous serve to increase your damage too so really you just need to focus on your attack bonus to cover the melee part.

For casting, duskblades are ok but they are stuck on 1st level spells for way to long. Spells designed for the ranger and paladin classes are typically stronger than the same-level spells found on the wizard and cleric lists. Like a paladin get's rhino's charge for double damage as a 1st level spell but a duskblade gets shocking touch for 5d6 damagel. Through sword of the arcane order both a paladin and ranger have substantially better spell lists and the ability to adapt to the party's needs each morning rather than one very limited set list. A bard is an ever better option but it might be a too much considering what you've considered so far.

[PangolinPie]

There are a couple quirks to Dragonborn of Bahumat you might want to look into. First, as part of the transformation, you can swap one of your existing feats for either Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. So if you want both the flight and breath weapon, you can take the Heart aspect and be just one feat away from full flight by taking Improved Dragon Wings.

The second quirk comes from a careful reading of "The Mechanics of Rebirth":

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have."

This means if you're a Human Wizard, you can keep the human bonus feat and lose Scribe Scroll instead. Here's a list of base classes and ACFs that offer feats via class levels:



Interesting...hadn't realized that. Good to know :D


I'd remain a gish, fantasy stories printed always have the main hero able to use a sword and spells in some manner.

Dragonborn with wings are already capable of performing a dive attack for double damage, I suggest a halbred since it's the largest piercing damage martial weapon in core. Feats like battle jump and enhancements like valorous serve to increase your damage too so really you just need to focus on your attack bonus to cover the melee part.

For casting, duskblades are ok but they are stuck on 1st level spells for way to long. Spells designed for the ranger and paladin classes are typically stronger than the same-level spells found on the wizard and cleric lists. Like a paladin get's rhino's charge for double damage as a 1st level spell but a duskblade gets shocking touch for 5d6 damagel. Through sword of the arcane order both a paladin and ranger have substantially better spell lists and the ability to adapt to the party's needs each morning rather than one very limited set list. A bard is an ever better option but it might be a too much considering what you've considered so far.

Well my idea was to just dip for three levels of Duskblade for Arcane Channeling and also take Arcane Strike to start fueling my martial abilities with magic. I'd most likely take some levels in either the Martial Wizard variant or Battle Sorcerer since they also cast spontaneously.

I had a rather fun "holy unbercharger" build that could be adapted for this rather easily; Barbarian/Paladin/Champion of Gwynharwyf...although I don't really start getting any Paladin spells until after 10th level.

Oddly enough I love Bards...and the idea of this character flying around as they play music is pretty amusing to me. May be something I'll have to consider. And all my yes to the Halberd...fits perfectly.

[Darrin]

I had a rather fun "holy unbercharger" build that could be adapted for this rather easily; Barbarian/Paladin/Champion of Gwynharwyf...although I don't really start getting any Paladin spells until after 10th level.


Standard Sorcadin:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred exorcist 8.



Oddly enough I love Bards...and the idea of this character flying around as they play music is pretty amusing to me. May be something I'll have to consider. And all my yes to the Halberd...fits perfectly.

Warblade 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +6/Abjurant Champion 4

Hmm. No room for Spinning Halberd style. How about...

Fighter 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8
Feats: Power Attack (1st), WF Halberd (FB1st), Combat Reflexes (HB1st) Improved Bull Rush (3rd), Improved Dragon Wings (6th), Shock Trooper (9th), TWF (10th), Spinning Halberd (12th), Flyby Attack (15th), Arcane Strike (18th)

For Dragonborn, make Salkiria your home town to pick up EWP: Bola Flail (Ghostwalk 3.5 Update), and lose that in place of your human bonus feat. For Dragon Wings, take Soothe the Beast at Bard 3 instead of Inspire Competence (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 34).

[PangolinPie]

SLT Barbarian

Okay I'm ashamed to say I don't know what that is >_>....and why TWF?

[Darrin]

Okay I'm ashamed to say I don't know what that is >_>....and why TWF?

SLT = Spirit Lion Totem. Complete Champion ACF, swaps Fast Movement for Pounce (Ex).

TWF was a prereq for the Spinning Halberd feat... which is odd, because you don't actually use the TWF rules to get the extra attack from the halberd. I was just trying to see if I could get Spinning Halberd to work with Dive Attack + Pounce (you can use armor spikes as an offhand weapon). I wasn't entirely happy with it (Spinning Halberd comes in kinda late), but thought I'd throw it out there in the interest of spitballing.

[PangolinPie]

SLT = Spirit Lion Totem. Complete Champion ACF, swaps Fast Movement for Pounce (Ex).

TWF was a prereq for the Spinning Halberd feat... which is odd, because you don't actually use the TWF rules to get the extra attack from the halberd. I was just trying to see if I could get Spinning Halberd to work with Dive Attack + Pounce (you can use armor spikes as an offhand weapon). I wasn't entirely happy with it (Spinning Halberd comes in kinda late), but thought I'd throw it out there in the interest of spitballing.

I found out that someone else in the group is doing a bard build, so I went with Fighter 2/SLT Barbarian 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7...that suffices?

Or should I just go Evocationer 5 for ranged offensive magic from the sky?

[Darkweave31]

Obligatory mention of incantatrix with persist spell for all your gishing needs

Now that that's out of the way... Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 is very fun and here's why...

Haste becomes an extraordinary ability for you, not to mention you get miss chance with it up and at level 9 swiftblade you gain an extra standard action.

Now combine that superpowered haste with anti-magic field, that's right, you can effectively gish in an antimagic field

Now couple that with your natural flight and you'll have near complete control over any opponent that relies on magic (spells or items). Against opponents that don't use magic, shed the AMF and unload your spells on them.

Swiftblade can be found online... Abjurant champion because it's a decent gish class that fills the last 5 levels

[Darrin]

I found out that someone else in the group is doing a bard build, so I went with Fighter 2/SLT Barbarian 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7...that suffices?


You lose 4 caster levels that way, which means no 9th level spells. You may be better off replacing one level of Fighter with a level of Wizard or Spellsword. But that may not matter if your game isn't likely to get all the way up to level 20.



Or should I just go Evocationer 5 for ranged offensive magic from the sky?

Conjuration is better at offensive blasting than evocation. But there's no reason why a Fighter 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 couldn't replace the Wizard 6 with Evoker 6 (or Conjurer 6).

[PangolinPie]

Alright for sake of argument in the event that we don't end up with any divine elements in the party, how would I go about building this as a divine gish like with levels of cleric or paladin?

[Darkweave31]

Alright for sake of argument in the event that we don't end up with any divine elements in the party, how would I go about building this as a divine gish like with levels of cleric or paladin?

Cleric 20... No, really. It's a gish in a box. So is druid (but I'd say even more so with that one). I'd avoid paladin if you want a gish and not just a warrior.

Also I saw you were partial to bard...Dragonfire inspiration is a great feat for a dragonblooded bard and can essentially grant you +xd6 fire damage to your attacks where x is your inspire courage modifier. Combine this with a shortbow and you'll be able to fire ranged volleys with huge amounts of bonus damage (not to mention buffing your allies at the same time). Stick with bard 20 or enter into one of the many shiny bard prestige classes. Bards can also use wands of cure light wounds for healing if that's why you're worried about missing a divine caster. Sing triumphant songs of slaying dragons as you rain volleys of dragonfire down upon your enemies.

If you're on the fence about just going full caster I'd suggest looking up some of the wizard guides (I'm partial to the God wizard due to its focus on buffing and controlling battles so that your allies can shine, evocation and other direct damage spells are generally a poor way to deal damage without some serious optimization)... you could also have fun with a sorcerer, their unique, dragon-themed spells like wings of cover and wings of flurry are awesome. Avoid battle sorcerer though, it gives up too much for what you get.

An interesting full caster idea to think of could be a Conjurer/Malconvoker... you are a good caster that summons demons and devils to slay the spawn of Tiamat (essentially you turn evil against other evil)

[Ubercaledor]

This is relevant to my current build (which is not heavily creative, I know)

I was thinking maybe a Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar (if I can get past the DM) with Paladin2/Sorc4/spellsword1/dragonslayer1 to start the campaign and then maybe going into Abjurant or Platinum knight?

The DM loves dragons, and I think there's a distinct chance of Black Dragon TPK on the cards. Either way, any tips/tricks or "hey! don't do that!"s?
Otherwise if it wasn't for me wanting to do a Gish rather than straight sorcerer, I'd try going the venerable DWK route (without OTT cheese), as again, DM loves kobolds.

Otherwise, if the build gets shot down, I might just have to go full cleric. (I REALLY wanted a Cha-based build though)