Difficult terrain is a lie?

[Lord Haart]

-So, this Sunday we've had an encounter with a druid and her Greenbound summons. It happened in a forest, which by itself counts as hindering terrain, so our non-flyers were understandably bogged down (which didn't bode well with them when she cast Vortex of Teeth). The raptor-riding elder dwarf tried to jump (on his raptor) out of the zone covered with Entangle and Vortex of Teeth rather than wade through in on quarter speed; while he was calculating the DC of the jump, i've looked up Jump rules and said: "Hey, apparently it doesn't prohibit you from making several jumps over a course of a single move action!"

From there, it took about two seconds until we came to the conclusion that, if the premise is true, anyone with Jump +9 or higher could bypass hindering terrain completely by kangaroo-hopping in 5-feet-long jumps.

So, here are the questions:
1. Does a jump over hindering terrain ignore its movement penalties for the distance covered by jumping? While self-evident, the dwarf player later pointed out that he couldn't find a RAW evidence of jumps ignoring anything that hinders movement. If true, it's probably a Disfunctions Thread material (jumping over a bog slows you down as much as wading through it?), but it would put a stop on this tactics.
2. Do the rules prevent making multiple jumps per move action?
3. Is there anything else preventing this trick?
4. If this trick works, is it well-known but rarely mentioned or do i get to brag about discovering a new way to abuse the rules of 3.5?

[jiriku]

The skill description states that a Jump check is made as part of a move action. Based on that, and on the way the skill is described throughout the description, I would intepret it to mean that you can only make a Jump check once per move action. Thus, if you have a 20-ft move and can manage a DC 40 check, or a 30-ft move and can manage a DC 60 check, you can Tigger around all day long.

I would agree that movement made by jumping would ignore difficult terrain, provided that your jump is high enough to clear the terrain for a significant portion of the distance jumped. However, there's no RAW on difficult terrain and jumping, so that's entirely a DM call. The rules clearly anticipate that jumps would be used only through clear air. They don't attempt to handle the prospect of jumping through an obstruction. Honestly for a lot of obstructions I'd probably just toss an ad-hoc +2 or +5 on the Jump DC and call it a day.

Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if a DM made an ad-hoc ruling that jumping into a bog might cause you to drive yourself down into the muck, potentially costing you some move appropriate to the terrain type in that square. After all, you would expect to make better time by hopping across a dry, hard surface than you would by hopping through a treacherous bog.

[mr_odd]

You also may want to take into account of the hindering terrain affecting the jump itself. It may increase the jump DC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're in difficult terrain, then your movement speed is reduced, thus your jump check is reduced. If you normally have a movement speed of 40 ft., but you're moving at a quarter speed or 10 ft., then you're at a -12 penalty to jump due to your current speed: "If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet."

Furthermore, "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round." If you're reduced to a quarter move speed, then your jumping distance is also limited by that because that's how far you would normally move in a round without jumping under the circumstances. So it doesn't actually work.

There's no Counter-Strike bunny hopping in D&D, sorry.

[Doug Lampert]

If you're in difficult terrain, then your movement speed is reduced, thus your jump check is reduced. If you normally have a movement speed of 40 ft., but you're moving at a quarter speed or 10 ft., then you're at a -12 penalty to jump due to your current speed: "If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet."

Furthermore, "Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round." If you're reduced to a quarter move speed, then your jumping distance is also limited by that because that's how far you would normally move in a round without jumping under the circumstances. So it doesn't actually work.

There's no Counter-Strike bunny hopping in D&D, sorry.
Eh? Since when is 10' a 40' move character's "normal maximum movement speed"?

And in any case, difficult terrain does NOT reduce movement speed at all, it costs double or quadruple or whatever multiplier to move through the space, but your maximum speed is unchanged and your movement speed is unchanged, the space just counts double or more. Thus maximum movement speed is unchanged because absolutely NOTHING says your move speed is changed. Some spaces just cost extra movement distance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eh? Since when is 10' a 40' move character's "normal maximum movement speed"?

And in any case, difficult terrain does NOT reduce movement speed at all, it costs double or quadruple or whatever multiplier to move through the space, but your maximum speed is unchanged and your movement speed is unchanged, the space just counts double or more. Thus maximum movement speed is unchanged because absolutely NOTHING says your move speed is changed. Some spaces just cost extra movement distance.

I guess I was thinking of the entangled condition, which does reduce your movement speed.

Regardless, jumping counts against your movement in a round, so it's counted as part of your movement, and nothing indicates that it's not hindered by difficult terrain, so it is.

[Stegyre]

I would not allow it. Here is my rationale, though I don't think RAW directly speaks to the issue.

First, a character's movement mode is already an abstraction. If he has a speed of 30', he can go 30' in a move action in clear terrain along the surface. He might be skipping, twirling, galloping, walking, or even jumping (in the dictionary definition of the term, not the game mechanic).

Rough terrain doubles the movement cost, regardless of how one cares to fluff the description of the mode. It also expressly bars certain game modes, like "Run" or "Charge."

The RAW "Long Jump" is specifically "a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream." I would allow a character to use that to cross a terrain type that he cannot ordinarily move across (air, water, lava). But I would rule that "jumping" across difficult terrain is already part of the regular movement mode and at the higher cost.

After all: how fast do you think you could make consecutive "jumps" across a rock-strewn field, without falling, twisting an ankle, or worse? I view the doubled cost as factoring that in: sure you can jump, but you have to jump with care.

[Coidzor]

Depends on if you're starting in the difficult terrain or would have to pass through it as part of a running start to the jump. If starting in it or having to pass through it as part of a running start = hindered. If not starting in it and starting far enough away to get the running start out of the way(or good enough jumping to not need it) then ignore the difficult terrain unless it's something that would also hinder an airborne creature in that square.

I'm probably departing from the RAW somewhere, but frankly I don't really care about that here unless someone can provide a good reason to follow the RAW.

In your particular scenario, I don't really see it working, though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If he's got a high enough jump skill (factoring in the penalty from reduced speed) he can jump, ignoring the difficult terrain. Once per move action. That's pretty much the whole reason for Sudden Leap and the skill has little enough use otherwise.

Long jumps from a standing start require quite a bit of investment to move any useful distance. You can't get a running start in difficult terrain since you can't run. That's limiting enough.
If you have Sudden Leap and/or Leaping Dragon Stance, good for you. You have spend a maneuver and stance for it, so it may as well be useful.

I wouldn't allow multiple jumps on the same move action and reduced speed (from entangle or other stuff) still reduces your maximum distance, of course. Sudden Leaps distance is only limited by your jump check iirc, so it would be pretty handy in this situation.

[Sith_Happens]

However, there's no RAW on difficult terrain and jumping, so that's entirely a DM call.

According to the Rules Compendium you can attempt to charge through obstructed squares by jumping over the obstructions (if you fail the jump, the charge is foiled). I don't know of any equivalent for general movement, though.

[Dalebert]

In the bog example in particular, rules aside, I would logically expect that to severely impede jumping. You're trying to leave the ground and your feet are either in water or worse, sticky mud. So generally, yes, I would expect terrain to impede jumps with some exceptions.

[Anlashok]

I guess I was thinking of the entangled condition, which does reduce your movement speed.

Regardless, jumping counts against your movement in a round, so it's counted as part of your movement, and nothing indicates that it's not hindered by difficult terrain, so it is.

I believe the argument here is that "normal maximum movement" doesn't consider your current movement speed if you're slowed by any means because those aren't your normal maximum.

[Vogonjeltz]

-So, this Sunday we've had an encounter with a druid and her Greenbound summons. It happened in a forest, which by itself counts as hindering terrain, so our non-flyers were understandably bogged down (which didn't bode well with them when she cast Vortex of Teeth). The raptor-riding elder dwarf tried to jump (on his raptor) out of the zone covered with Entangle and Vortex of Teeth rather than wade through in on quarter speed; while he was calculating the DC of the jump, i've looked up Jump rules and said: "Hey, apparently it doesn't prohibit you from making several jumps over a course of a single move action!"

From there, it took about two seconds until we came to the conclusion that, if the premise is true, anyone with Jump +9 or higher could bypass hindering terrain completely by kangaroo-hopping in 5-feet-long jumps.

So, here are the questions:
1. Does a jump over hindering terrain ignore its movement penalties for the distance covered by jumping? While self-evident, the dwarf player later pointed out that he couldn't find a RAW evidence of jumps ignoring anything that hinders movement. If true, it's probably a Disfunctions Thread material (jumping over a bog slows you down as much as wading through it?), but it would put a stop on this tactics.
2. Do the rules prevent making multiple jumps per move action?
3. Is there anything else preventing this trick?
4. If this trick works, is it well-known but rarely mentioned or do i get to brag about discovering a new way to abuse the rules of 3.5?

There's a fairly massive penalty for not moving 20 feet before a jump.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I believe the argument here is that "normal maximum movement" doesn't consider your current movement speed if you're slowed by any means because those aren't your normal maximum.

Yes, but your jump itself is considered movement and is thus affected by terrain. You still pay double or quadruple for jumping into a difficult square the same as if you stepped into that square. Nothing in the jump skill indicates that this is not the case.

[jiriku]

After all: how fast do you think you could make consecutive "jumps" across a rock-strewn field, without falling, twisting an ankle, or worse? I view the doubled cost as factoring that in: sure you can jump, but you have to jump with care.

Speaking from experience, I can say that you do need to slow down, even when jumping. I once tried to move at full speed while jumping across a field of broken rock. I fell and twisted an ankle. Actually twisted an ankle, sprained both wrists, busted my lip open, and bit halfway through my tongue, but you get the idea.

[Stegyre]

Speaking from experience, I can say that you do need to slow down, even when jumping. I once tried to move at full speed while jumping across a field of broken rock. I fell and twisted an ankle. Actually twisted an ankle, sprained both wrists, busted my lip open, and bit halfway through my tongue, but you get the idea.
OUCH!

Don't try this at home (again).

[Sith_Happens]

Yes, but your jump itself is considered movement and is thus affected by terrain. You still pay double or quadruple for jumping into a difficult square the same as if you stepped into that square. Nothing in the jump skill indicates that this is not the case.

If you can achieve a jump height of at least five feet, you won't be in those squares any more (or at least, not all of them).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can achieve a jump height of at least five feet, you won't be in those squares any more (or at least, not all of them).

Squares aren't a five-foot cube, most characters are taller than five feet but they don't take up two vertical squares! Besides that, a long jump is automatically half the jump distance in height at its highest point, you would need to make a high jump if you want to clear the terrain which doesn't move you forward. You would need to somehow high jump over the terrain, move forward at that height, and then land in the desired square to avoid the difficult terrain. At this point you may as well just allow characters to make a jump check to fly.

[jiriku]

OUCH!

Don't try this at home (again).

Yeah, injuring yourself while alone in the wilderness in an unfamiliar area with no supplies just as night is falling isn't a terribly brilliant plan. :smallbiggrin: I was young and stupid. And lucky. :smalltongue:

[Ashtagon]

Personally, I'd not impose terrain penalties for the distance jumped (provided the jump clears the terrain), but...

* I'd allow no more than one jump per move action.
* Anything more yielding than a rubber mat or a healthy lawn surface would impose substantial penalties to a Jump check. You need a firm surface to push off against in order to jump effectively.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah, injuring yourself while alone in the wilderness in an unfamiliar area with no supplies just as night is falling isn't a terribly brilliant plan. :smallbiggrin: I was young and stupid. And lucky. :smalltongue:

As my family says "its not a vacation until you almost manage to get yourself killed."

[Stegyre]

There's a fairly massive penalty for not moving 20 feet before a jump.
Yes and no: the DC is doubled, so the OP is right that, if it were acceptable, a character with Jump 9 could make a series of 5' hops (DC 5, doubled to DC 10 for not having a 20' running start). The penalty would be an issue for longer jumps, but not for what the OP is proposing.

If you can achieve a jump height of at least five feet, you won't be in those squares any more (or at least, not all of them).
This, on the other hand, would be much more difficult: quadruple the height for the DC of a vertical jump (DC = 5*4 = 20), then double it for not having a running start (DC 40). IMHO, this is one of those things where the "solution" is more trouble than the problem it purports to solve. :smallwink:

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes and no: the DC is doubled, so the OP is right that, if it were acceptable, a character with Jump 9 could make a series of 5' hops (DC 5, doubled to DC 10 for not having a 20' running start). The penalty would be an issue for longer jumps, but not for what the OP is proposing.

True enough, I'm thinking this isn't really a problem, it would be similar to skipping or bounding from one foot to the other, which can be done fairly easily in the terrain described in a forest. As DM I'd allow it so long as they were able to clear things. If there were any obstacles over 1.25 feet high they'd have to make a high jump/hop up as well, or trip over them. (At the midpoint of a long jump the character attains a heigh equal to one-quarter the horizontal distance.)

[Stegyre]

If there were any obstacles over 1.25 feet high they'd have to make a high jump/hop up as well, or trip over them. (At the midpoint of a long jump the character attains a heigh equal to one-quarter the horizontal distance.)
Beware of simply assuming that the obstacle just happens to be mid-way in a character's long jump.

[Vogonjeltz]

Beware of simply assuming that the obstacle just happens to be mid-way in a character's long jump.

Oh I know, I'm saying that for a 5 foot jump that's the tallest object that can be cleared, and it would have to be at the midpoint. So if there's deep brush, you probably can't jump that without more space.