MartianInvader
2014-07-29, 03:31 PM
TL;DR: I think I've got a build that gets 7 attacks, at an average 15 damage each, at level 7. I'm looking for advice/critiques on it.
I've never played pathfinder before, and was invited into a game that starts at level 1. I've got an idea for a rogue build, and I'm hoping to get feedback/advice on it. I call it "5 pointy ends" after an old Calvin and Hobbes comic (http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/01/03#.U9fnlnWx3UY).
The Build: We start with a tiefling rogue with the Maw or Claw alternate racial trait, taking a bite attack (and, for fun, Prehensile Tail). At levels 1 and 2 we take the two-weapon fighting feat and weapon finesse rogue talent, so we now have 3 attacks, albeit at -2/-2/-5 when used together since a natural attack counts as secondary when used with weapon attacks. At level 3 these 3 attacks are all eligible for an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage.
The fun happens at levels 4 and 5, which we use to take two levels of ranger. This gives us two key ingredients:
1) The natural weapon combat style, which lets us take Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat, giving us two claw attacks. These would be treated as secondary and be at -5 if used in the same full attack as a weapon, but we now have 3 natural attacks (claw/claw/bite), which means we can take the Multiattack feat and bring the penalty down to -2.
2) Proficiency in martial weapons, in particular blade boots. Blade boots use your feet, which means we can use them in the same full attack as our claw-claw-bite. They are light, which means we can use TWF by wielding one on each foot and only suffer a -2 on our attacks. Blade boots have the drawback that when they're out, you treat normal terrain as difficult terrain, and difficult terrain as impassible. We can overcome the former problem by installing two boot blades in a pair of feather-step slippers, which let you ignore effects of difficult terrain. Actual difficult terrain can still pose a problem since it becomes impassible, so maybe we'll also install an armor spike or something for fights where there's a lot of difficult terrain and just not use our blade boots in those situations.
So now we've got 5 attacks at level 5, all at a mere -2 when used together, and they all are eligible for +2d6 sneak attack damage. Not bad! Every two rogue levels we take after this adds another d6 sneak attack damage to each attack, so we're taking rogue levels from here on out. At levels 6 and 7, we'll probably take the Weapon Training rogue talent for our boot blades and then Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which means we'll get another iterative attack with each boot (at -5 each).
So at level 7, our full attack has 7 attacks: 2 claws for 1d4 (at -2 attack in a full attack), bite for 1d6 (-2), and 4 boot blade attacks for 1d4 (2 at -2 and 2 at -5). These 7 attacks are all eligible for an extra 3d6 sneak attack damage, so if we're flanking at the start of the turn, we can deal a potential 6d4 + 22d6 + 6 * (str bonus) damage, which with my planned 14 strength, would average to 104 damage. Eventually, when Greater TWF comes online at level 13, we get another attack with each boot for a total of 9 attacks, each with an extra 7d6 sneak attack damage. That's a potential 6d4 + 64d6 + 7.5 * (str bonus) damage, or 254 average damage if the attacks all hit.
Making the Most of it: We'll want to make sure we have plenty of chances to use these full-sneak-attacks. Stealth and feinting won't cut it here, since they typically only give you precision damage on your first attack. Here are some strategies we can use to get the most out of this build (I'm thinking levels 5-7 here, but ideas for higher levels are appreciated):
-Flanking. Obviously, if we can flank we can get the full-round sneak attack in. Moving with acrobatics to avoid AOOs will help here.
-Wand of darkness + dimmer dust. Used indoors, dimmer dust reduces lighting to dim light in a 30-foot radius area. If we zap ourselves with a wand of darkness before or during combat, that means we'll bring the lighting to total darkness within the dimmer dust area, blinding anyone without darkvision. When you're blinded you lose your dex bonus to AC and thus can be sneak attacked. Since Tieflings have darkvision, we can sneak attack all day in this darkness.
-Fungal stun vials: Against tightly-grouped opponents, we can pull out a fungal stun vial with our tail as a swift action, toss it into the middle of them, and get a decent chance that one of them will be stunned for two rounds. We can then use our move action to walk up next to that opponent, setting up the full-round attack for the following turn.
-Flash powder: Flash powder only blinds for 1 round, so we can't use it ourselves for a full attack on the next turn, but we could hand it out to allies and beg them to use it. Similar for shadowcloy, when the wand of darkness or dimmer dust is in effect.
How can I tune/complete this build? So, what do you guys think? Can I DO this, or did I make a rules mistake? If this is all legal, I still have an unspent feat at level 3; what should I use it for? Is there another way to get the claws/boot blades without dipping, so we get more sneak attack damage? How can I best deal with difficult terrain? And what should I do in future levels?
Here are some of my ideas for what to take past level 7:
-Outflank: If the party composition ends up giving a lot of flanking chances, this feat would be a great way to boost our attack rolls.
-Improved Two-Weapon Feint: By going for improved two-weapon feint, we can replace our first attack with a feint that would give all our remaining attacks sneak-attack damage, even without a situation that grants sneak attack. This synergizes well since bluff is a rogue class skill and Tieflings get a +2 bonus to it.
-Criticals: Attacking 7, 8, or 9 times gives you a 30.1%, 33.6%, or 36.9% chance of rolling a natural 20, respectively. This makes taking critical-related feats viable. Blinding critical seems especially tempting.
-Head Butt: It takes 3 feats to get, but the third-party head butt ability would give us yet another natural attack that can get sneak attack damage, although it will deal some blowback damage if used, and a GM may rule that it can't be used in conjunction with a bite.
6 pointy ends? One last note is that we could do this build with a kobold, taking the Dragonmaw trait for the bite attack and spending the 3rd-level feat on Tail Terror, which would give us another natural attack. We could even drop the second ranger level and take Aspect of the Beast with the Combat Trick rogue talent, so we'd get to 8 sneak attacks with 4d6 bonus damage each at 8th level, and things get more ridiculous as you gain levels from there. The darkvision tricks would still work, and if we went for Dragon Paragon we would get a fly speed that could help overcome the difficult terrain issue. I chose not to do this myself, as I prefer a Tiefling thematically, as well as the better stats and extra damage from non-small weapons.
I've never played pathfinder before, and was invited into a game that starts at level 1. I've got an idea for a rogue build, and I'm hoping to get feedback/advice on it. I call it "5 pointy ends" after an old Calvin and Hobbes comic (http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/01/03#.U9fnlnWx3UY).
The Build: We start with a tiefling rogue with the Maw or Claw alternate racial trait, taking a bite attack (and, for fun, Prehensile Tail). At levels 1 and 2 we take the two-weapon fighting feat and weapon finesse rogue talent, so we now have 3 attacks, albeit at -2/-2/-5 when used together since a natural attack counts as secondary when used with weapon attacks. At level 3 these 3 attacks are all eligible for an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage.
The fun happens at levels 4 and 5, which we use to take two levels of ranger. This gives us two key ingredients:
1) The natural weapon combat style, which lets us take Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat, giving us two claw attacks. These would be treated as secondary and be at -5 if used in the same full attack as a weapon, but we now have 3 natural attacks (claw/claw/bite), which means we can take the Multiattack feat and bring the penalty down to -2.
2) Proficiency in martial weapons, in particular blade boots. Blade boots use your feet, which means we can use them in the same full attack as our claw-claw-bite. They are light, which means we can use TWF by wielding one on each foot and only suffer a -2 on our attacks. Blade boots have the drawback that when they're out, you treat normal terrain as difficult terrain, and difficult terrain as impassible. We can overcome the former problem by installing two boot blades in a pair of feather-step slippers, which let you ignore effects of difficult terrain. Actual difficult terrain can still pose a problem since it becomes impassible, so maybe we'll also install an armor spike or something for fights where there's a lot of difficult terrain and just not use our blade boots in those situations.
So now we've got 5 attacks at level 5, all at a mere -2 when used together, and they all are eligible for +2d6 sneak attack damage. Not bad! Every two rogue levels we take after this adds another d6 sneak attack damage to each attack, so we're taking rogue levels from here on out. At levels 6 and 7, we'll probably take the Weapon Training rogue talent for our boot blades and then Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which means we'll get another iterative attack with each boot (at -5 each).
So at level 7, our full attack has 7 attacks: 2 claws for 1d4 (at -2 attack in a full attack), bite for 1d6 (-2), and 4 boot blade attacks for 1d4 (2 at -2 and 2 at -5). These 7 attacks are all eligible for an extra 3d6 sneak attack damage, so if we're flanking at the start of the turn, we can deal a potential 6d4 + 22d6 + 6 * (str bonus) damage, which with my planned 14 strength, would average to 104 damage. Eventually, when Greater TWF comes online at level 13, we get another attack with each boot for a total of 9 attacks, each with an extra 7d6 sneak attack damage. That's a potential 6d4 + 64d6 + 7.5 * (str bonus) damage, or 254 average damage if the attacks all hit.
Making the Most of it: We'll want to make sure we have plenty of chances to use these full-sneak-attacks. Stealth and feinting won't cut it here, since they typically only give you precision damage on your first attack. Here are some strategies we can use to get the most out of this build (I'm thinking levels 5-7 here, but ideas for higher levels are appreciated):
-Flanking. Obviously, if we can flank we can get the full-round sneak attack in. Moving with acrobatics to avoid AOOs will help here.
-Wand of darkness + dimmer dust. Used indoors, dimmer dust reduces lighting to dim light in a 30-foot radius area. If we zap ourselves with a wand of darkness before or during combat, that means we'll bring the lighting to total darkness within the dimmer dust area, blinding anyone without darkvision. When you're blinded you lose your dex bonus to AC and thus can be sneak attacked. Since Tieflings have darkvision, we can sneak attack all day in this darkness.
-Fungal stun vials: Against tightly-grouped opponents, we can pull out a fungal stun vial with our tail as a swift action, toss it into the middle of them, and get a decent chance that one of them will be stunned for two rounds. We can then use our move action to walk up next to that opponent, setting up the full-round attack for the following turn.
-Flash powder: Flash powder only blinds for 1 round, so we can't use it ourselves for a full attack on the next turn, but we could hand it out to allies and beg them to use it. Similar for shadowcloy, when the wand of darkness or dimmer dust is in effect.
How can I tune/complete this build? So, what do you guys think? Can I DO this, or did I make a rules mistake? If this is all legal, I still have an unspent feat at level 3; what should I use it for? Is there another way to get the claws/boot blades without dipping, so we get more sneak attack damage? How can I best deal with difficult terrain? And what should I do in future levels?
Here are some of my ideas for what to take past level 7:
-Outflank: If the party composition ends up giving a lot of flanking chances, this feat would be a great way to boost our attack rolls.
-Improved Two-Weapon Feint: By going for improved two-weapon feint, we can replace our first attack with a feint that would give all our remaining attacks sneak-attack damage, even without a situation that grants sneak attack. This synergizes well since bluff is a rogue class skill and Tieflings get a +2 bonus to it.
-Criticals: Attacking 7, 8, or 9 times gives you a 30.1%, 33.6%, or 36.9% chance of rolling a natural 20, respectively. This makes taking critical-related feats viable. Blinding critical seems especially tempting.
-Head Butt: It takes 3 feats to get, but the third-party head butt ability would give us yet another natural attack that can get sneak attack damage, although it will deal some blowback damage if used, and a GM may rule that it can't be used in conjunction with a bite.
6 pointy ends? One last note is that we could do this build with a kobold, taking the Dragonmaw trait for the bite attack and spending the 3rd-level feat on Tail Terror, which would give us another natural attack. We could even drop the second ranger level and take Aspect of the Beast with the Combat Trick rogue talent, so we'd get to 8 sneak attacks with 4d6 bonus damage each at 8th level, and things get more ridiculous as you gain levels from there. The darkvision tricks would still work, and if we went for Dragon Paragon we would get a fly speed that could help overcome the difficult terrain issue. I chose not to do this myself, as I prefer a Tiefling thematically, as well as the better stats and extra damage from non-small weapons.