What could be good races for arch-villains?

[wkwkwkwk1]

Hello,
Everyone!

I've been thinking about this for a while: what races would make good arch-villains/nemesis? For instance, lich would be a good one (blame OoTS :smalltongue:), since the ability to regenerate would explain their return, similar to happened with Xykon.

What are your thoughts on this?

wkwkwkwk1

[Hexenarethi]

I would say a multiclass rogue sorcerer human. Level 10.

[Haruki-kun]

Humans are always a good choice. Always. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards)

[wkwkwkwk1]

I would say a multiclass rogue sorcerer human. Level 10.

Unless you're fighting a 6-members 15-level adventuring party. Besides, not a race by itself :smalltongue:


Humans are always a good choice. Always. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards)

Heheh, TV Tropes, the doom of thousands of lives :smallamused:

Though it lacks the ring of, say, a fiend, or a lich... :smalltongue:

[Hexenarethi]

Well, I'm sorry. Try out a monster that has some serious HP? Like a dragon, I don't know.
"The question is more important than the answer."

-Julio Scoundrèl

[Jaycemonde]

These guys right here. Genetically unstable, eternally angry, harsh-sounding, concise language, everyone looks like they have a serious skin condition and sounds like they have difficulty breathing.
They even go so far as installing prosthetic legs and life support systems on newborn clones as soon as they're capable of supporting them, although to be fair that's necessary for survival.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121103152534/warframe/images/6/64/Grineer.png

Granted, they're more of a science fiction thing, but Warframe (which is what they're from) has a lot of fantasy elements to it as well.

[russdm]

An Elf, because they are traditionally long lived and everyone has a stereotypical "good" elf view which means an evil one would be throw off. Plus the heroes can work for him/her until the betrayal without being any wiser because it is not expected.

Plus, people default to considering elves trustworthy, players and characters, unless there is some history of elves not being trustworthy but this never happens.

[Jaycemonde]

An Elf, because they are traditionally long lived and everyone has a stereotypical "good" elf view which means an evil one would be throw off. Plus the heroes can work for him/her until the betrayal without being any wiser because it is not expected.

Plus, people default to considering elves trustworthy, players and characters, unless there is some history of elves not being trustworthy but this never happens.

I think you need to read the Dragonlance Chronicles, or maybe The Hobbit.

[Hexenarethi]

Jaycemonde!!!! I love Dragonlance!!!


"And these words of wisdom I impart."
-Unknown

[russdm]

I think you need to read the Dragonlance Chronicles, or maybe The Hobbit.

Read both, but the default view of elves is that are rarely ever villains or bad guys of any sort. In both fiction and roleplaying games.

[Giggling Ghast]

Vampires. Able to command lesser undead, able to create other mooks by draining sentients, difficult to kill, has centuries to enact a plan and build power, totally evil.

[Kaeso]

I'm of the opinion that race doesn't matter, merely the villain himself. Even a gnome can be written as a pretty good villain. Think about it, gnomes are associated with magic and money. They could easily gain enough influence to get some big guys to do the work for them. And nobody suspects a jolly gnome.

[ArlEammon]

Humanus Aristocratus

The Sorcerer!!!

A level 20 Aristocrat, Epic Sorcerer, level 30

[Asta Kask]

Cats. They will play with the PCs and then strike when people suspect it the least.

[Mando Knight]

Cats. They will play with the PCs and then strike when people suspect it the least.

The dice will be scattered! Miniatures thrown to the ground! Food will be stepped in, and tracked over the GM's notes! Favorite Human will be blamed for attracting their attention!

[Serpentine]

Literally any race ever.
No one ever suspects the pixie...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-INH6F0whiIw/UGJvED9S_nI/AAAAAAAAGt8/K5fc7njPXjU/s400/tumblr_lov8do94oR1qzegdmo1_400.jpg

[russdm]

And nobody suspects a jolly gnome.

I always suspect a gnome of something, courtesy of Warcraft and Dragonlance. There is always a gnome plotting one's downfall and to believe otherwise will lead to one's downfall.

Never trust a gnome. Also, never accept anything a gnome gives you, as it may be a prank. Remember, only you can prevent gnomes.

[wkwkwkwk1]

Nice answers, everyone, elves especially!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Obviously not a relay, too much teamwork required.

Tour de France maybe?

[Durkoala]

Obviously not a relay, too much teamwork required.

Tour de France maybe?

Obstacle course, as long as they aren't competing against any Heroes. Before the hero arrives, a good villain can overcome all obstacles to a position of power with ease.

[Mercenary Pen]

Obstacle course, as long as they aren't competing against any Heroes. Before the hero arrives, a good villain can overcome all obstacles to a position of power with ease.

The amusing thing is that each villain is likely to add their own obstacles to the course to sabotage their rivals, making it more of a battle of wits than ever.

[Bulldog Psion]

Anything long-lived seems a good choice to me. Nothing says "we've got to stop this creep" more than the fact that they were razing cities and eating kittens before your great-grandparent's great grandparents were born.

[Graustein]

Anything that goes against the stereotype is what I like: a brutish Aasimar villain, a manipulative cerebral Orc villain, a Drow who just happens to have their own personal reasons for doing something that would be benign if it didn't go totally against the protagonist's goals, all of that stuff.

[Asta Kask]

Read both, but the default view of elves is that are rarely ever villains or bad guys of any sort. In both fiction and roleplaying games.

Model them after Der Erlkönig. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZxzz-N3oxM)

Who rides, so late, through night and wind?
It is the father with his child.
He has the boy well in his arm
He holds him safely, he keeps him warm.

"My son, why do you hide your face so anxiously?"
"Father, do you not see the Elfking?
The Elfking with crown and tail?"
"My son, it's a wisp of fog."

"You dear child, come, go with me!
Very lovely games I'll play with you;
Some colourful flowers are on the beach,
My mother has some golden robes."

"My father, my father, and don't you hear
What the Elfking quietly promises me?"
"Be calm, stay calm, my child;
The wind is rustling through withered leaves."

"Do you want to come with me, pretty boy?
My daughters shall wait on you finely;
My daughters will lead the nightly dance,
And rock and dance and sing you to sleep."

"My father, my father, and don't you see there
The Elfking's daughters in the gloomy place?"
"My son, my son, I see it clearly:
There shimmer the old willows so grey."

"I love you, your beautiful form entices me;
And if you're not willing, then I will use force."
"My father, my father, he's grabbing me now!
The Elfking has done me harm!"

It horrifies the father; he swiftly rides on,
He holds the moaning child in his arms,
Reaches the farm with trouble and hardship;
In his arms, the child was dead.

[Driderman]

a brutish Aasimar villain

I've long wanted to tell the story of a petty sellsword of aasimar descent, who basically feels entitled to riches and power due to his heritage, and ends up trying storm the Upper Planes themselves to take it by force as his ancestor (naturally) won't give him the time of day due to his evil alignment. A sort of "good ancestry doesn't necessarily mean good, but if the damn Planars hadn't been so literal, this guy might have been redeemable" sort of story.

[lolthfollower]

Aside from a lich, no races really scream evil. A hydra would make a good one, but they are not sentient. A beholder would be a good arch villain. Dragons are just too overused to be interesting anymore. As I'm writing this, I realize an illithid would be perfect. Mindflayers, beholders and lichs would probably be the best.

[Mauve Shirt]

Australians. They can survive anything.

[Trog]

*a smoking troglodyte wanders in*

Arch-villains, eh?

*rubs chin in thought*

Hmmm... Arch villains. Let's see here... Villains of arches... Hmm... ... A keystone? ... Nah. Too obvious.


*looks up*

Trog knows! That one, you know, sort of really smelly, stupid race. The uh... whataretheycalled. ...Whoseamawhatsits. ... Thingamebobs...

*snaps fingers and looks around at the ground trying to remember the name*

Otyughs!

That's them. Classic villains. Inhabiting arched rooms under latrines. *nods*

[Don Julio Anejo]

Tall, really buff, nordic looking dudes. They can be German, Russian or South African. All three make great bad guys..
...Oh wait, you're talking RPG's, not 80's movies.

[Flickerdart]

Vampires. Able to command lesser undead, able to create other mooks by draining sentients, difficult to kill, has centuries to enact a plan and build power, totally evil.
Actually, the best part about vampires is that they can command greater undead than themselves, as long as they can manage to drain their blood. Every "level" of a vampire hierarchy doubles their HD, meaning that the controller is actually the weakest of the entire family.

[Skeppio]

Could always go with dragons. Maybe a bit cliche, but they're a good traditional villain to work with. Plus they can take human form (you might have to house-rule it in for some types), so coupled with their array of spells and flight, they could be anywhere, anyone, any time. :smallwink:

[Guancyto]

Even in Eberron where the gnomes are seriously hardcore, people treat gnomes like comic relief. Don't use a gnome.

Dwarves are underutilized but there's a lot of room for a dwarven villain, aside from all the normal motivations you might play to their honor (which is absolutely a trait a villain can and often should have), or take a page from the Warhammer dwarves and have this particular man be determined to avenge himself at all costs. Revenge is a classic villainous motivation and nobody holds grudges like a dwarf!

Except for elves and dragons of course but those were mentioned already.

[Asta Kask]

A Water bear? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade)

They've got DR 2000/epic+, immunity to all energy types and can withstand 100 times the radiation a human can. If you want a villain that can withstand pretty much anything, go with the water bear.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx683k9Mjw1qc6jxfo1_500.jpg

[Curbstomp]

In 3.5 D&D?

Try a Pyroclastic Dragon. Fort save or be destroyed is pretty scary especially as it is not a "death effect".

Hellfire Wyrm might also work. Low HP for a dragon, but a pretty nasty passive aura and 1/2 of breath weapon is profane instead of elemental damage.

A Beholder (I think may have been mentioned) can make a passable boss. Particularly if you take advantage of their lair layout tendencies. And for fun make it a ghost.

You might also try a Skarn. Going to need to give it class levels but could be a pretty interesting villain if your players are unfamiliar with the race.

A Mummy could be a pretty strong villain. Particularly if you make it a Tomb Guardian or a Dungeon Lord. Perhaps the Mummy is slowly remaking the world into one giant tomb. A tomb in which the Mummy can control and see virtually everything.

A changeling Sorc 10 / Acolyte of the Skin 20 would be pretty boss as a campaign villain. I played one that hit level 13 or 14 of the build in a villainous game and that thing can infiltrate anywhere. Particularly if you make wise spell selections focusing on polymorph/disguise/teleportation and for a bit of blasting fire spells.

Also consider a treant half-red dragon. Make the tree armies that Rich Burlew's dwarves joke about occasionally an actual thing.

Just a few ideas.

-Curb

[Fable Wright]

Even in Eberron where the gnomes are seriously hardcore, people treat gnomes like comic relief. Don't use a gnome.
How could anyone ever treat an Eberron gnome as comic relief? They are legitimately terrifying. As in, invisible gnome that never sleeps, eats, or drinks that skulks around until the thought police tell them to kill you levels of terrifying.

As for villains? I'd say Eberron-style Rakshasa. They've lived on the planet for millions of years before the notion of humanoids was even conceived. Each time they die, they reincarnate with all the memories of their old lives, and all of their skills as sharp as they'll ever be. They blend into human society perfectly, have plans within plans, practically own the tropes of Xanatos Gambit and Batman Gambit, and are nearly immune to magic and weaponry. Nevertheless, with research, you can find out about their past lives, study them, their plans, their personalities, their fatal flaws.

But the worst part is that they are not like liches or vampires. If you kill them, they will come back. Perhaps almost immediately, perhaps in centuries. But the only way to deal with the threat is to somehow bind it with a trap it hasn't seen in its unfathomably long lifetime, and ensure that it is never released.

[wkwkwkwk1]

How could anyone ever treat an Eberron gnome as comic relief? They are legitimately terrifying. As in, invisible gnome that never sleeps, eats, or drinks that skulks around until the thought police tell them to kill you levels of terrifying.

As for villains? I'd say Eberron-style Rakshasa. They've lived on the planet for millions of years before the notion of humanoids was even conceived. Each time they die, they reincarnate with all the memories of their old lives, and all of their skills as sharp as they'll ever be. They blend into human society perfectly, have plans within plans, practically own the tropes of Xanatos Gambit and Batman Gambit, and are nearly immune to magic and weaponry. Nevertheless, with research, you can find out about their past lives, study them, their plans, their personalities, their fatal flaws.

But the worst part is that they are not like liches or vampires. If you kill them, they will come back. Perhaps almost immediately, perhaps in centuries. But the only way to deal with the threat is to somehow bind it with a trap it hasn't seen in its unfathomably long lifetime, and ensure that it is never released.


I must say I like this answer very much. Their shapeshifting abilities make them especially interesting. Thank you!

[Asta Kask]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XMeO0B00GgE/T3J2r6jnVqI/AAAAAAAAAC4/K20gz5S3Yy8/s1600/joker-cat.jpg

[Gnomvid]

Race is irrelevant as long as they speak with a quintessentially English accent, everyone knows the only convincing villains have a quintessentially English accent, hollywoodese, German or even Russian accents just don't have the same je ne sais quoi that makes a believable villain.

[Socratov]

Well, the villain has to answer to a couple of standards:


questionable morality (conventional or blue/orange)
free will
intelligence and charisma
an ability to make long-term plans
the ability to be neutralized (whether depowered, destroyed or killed).
Not too high wis (exceptions exist, but a sensible villain is a bit of an oxymoron to me)


So, who are capable of such things:


Humans (they can do just about everything)
Elves (long term planning and intelligence)
Tieflings (can you say misunderstood)
(Unseelie) Fey
Chromatic dragons/-kin
kobolds
Psionic races
Awakened animals


all of these races have in common that they share 1 or more villainesque qualities. (Also, that's totally a word now). They also fall neatly in the means/motive/opportunity triangle. Humans are obvious, but elves can be driven by annoyance and dragons will be dragons. Fey and Psionic races might view their campaign against the world as a service to the world and Awakened animals and Kobolds might want revenge for how they have been treated.

Also, while I support the theory that a good villain should be British, I'd also like to nominate the French accent for having a certain flair and penchant to drama. Eastern european accents and German will be better used within the staff to inspire a feeling of ruthlessness and efficiency for the organisation. But to all ends a villain will have to be the one making the plan (intelligence) and convince his people of following it (Charisma). Any villain with a decent wisdom score would quickly see how his plan would be foiled by a band of heroes and how his efforts will be futile. So no wisdom. Int and Cha is all you need.

[Scarlet Knight]

No votes for devils?

Minions to battle at low level, temptations higher up, horrible stronghold at high levels.

Lawful, organized, deal making, patient, magical,... talk to them long enough and you WANT to help them...sounds like a great super villain.

[Ettina]

Any villain with a decent wisdom score would quickly see how his plan would be foiled by a band of heroes and how his efforts will be futile. So no wisdom. Int and Cha is all you need.

I disagree.

Firstly, depending on the setting, the heroes themselves could be completely unexpected. Think of how random the appearance of most heroes is. They just happen to be at the right place at the right time to start the campaign. Don't need low Wisdom not to foresee some random guys coming out of nowhere to defeat you. There's gotta be many villains who don't get stopped by heroes, but we don't get campaigns done about them.

Secondly, maybe he has a plan for the heroes. Especially if you have him pose as a good guy, he might expect the heroes to fall for his ruse and do his bidding. Not a dumb thing to expect, if he's not raising suspicion. Who would think the friendly elf who gave them a quest is actually the main villain? He's got a decent change of getting them to hand over the Trinket of Awesomeness without ever suspecting it was actually key to his evil plan.

Thirdly, some villains are fine with being defeated, because their goal will still be served. Look at Tarquin, he's genre-savvy enough to know he'll be toppled eventually by a hero, probably his own Good-aligned son, but he's fine with that because in the meantime, he gets to run an evil empire. Or maybe you have a villain with a non-self-serving motivation - serving an evil diety, helping his family claw their way to power, getting revenge - and killing him doesn't necessarily mean you stopped his plan from working out the way he wanted. (Or, depending on his race, he could be something that isn't stopped by killing him, in which case the heroes are at best a minor setback. If a rakshasa's evil plan didn't work this time, maybe it could work out in another generation.)

A villain with high Wisdom will need to think things through carefully. (Not necessarily be genre-savvy, if he has no logical reason to think he's in that genre, but savvy of his own world and how it works.) But there are plenty of ways to make a villain who decides that, even with the risks, going for an ambitious evil plan is still worth it.

[Finn Solomon]

No vampires? A Vampire King makes for a great villain. I'd also like to see more female villains, someone like a female ghost could make for a terrifying opponent.

[Socratov]

I disagree.

Firstly, depending on the setting, the heroes themselves could be completely unexpected. Think of how random the appearance of most heroes is. They just happen to be at the right place at the right time to start the campaign. Don't need low Wisdom not to foresee some random guys coming out of nowhere to defeat you. There's gotta be many villains who don't get stopped by heroes, but we don't get campaigns done about them.

Secondly, maybe he has a plan for the heroes. Especially if you have him pose as a good guy, he might expect the heroes to fall for his ruse and do his bidding. Not a dumb thing to expect, if he's not raising suspicion. Who would think the friendly elf who gave them a quest is actually the main villain? He's got a decent change of getting them to hand over the Trinket of Awesomeness without ever suspecting it was actually key to his evil plan.

Thirdly, some villains are fine with being defeated, because their goal will still be served. Look at Tarquin, he's genre-savvy enough to know he'll be toppled eventually by a hero, probably his own Good-aligned son, but he's fine with that because in the meantime, he gets to run an evil empire. Or maybe you have a villain with a non-self-serving motivation - serving an evil diety, helping his family claw their way to power, getting revenge - and killing him doesn't necessarily mean you stopped his plan from working out the way he wanted. (Or, depending on his race, he could be something that isn't stopped by killing him, in which case the heroes are at best a minor setback. If a rakshasa's evil plan didn't work this time, maybe it could work out in another generation.)

A villain with high Wisdom will need to think things through carefully. (Not necessarily be genre-savvy, if he has no logical reason to think he's in that genre, but savvy of his own world and how it works.) But there are plenty of ways to make a villain who decides that, even with the risks, going for an ambitious evil plan is still worth it.

The thing is, high WIS will turn the game into either a chessmaster situation resulting in a villain that is essentially unbeatable, or in a situation in which the villain is actually not a threat for the heroes as such. The only high WIS villain I can think off is Havelock Vetinary, Patrictian of Ankh-Morpork. And while he is a Villain, every hero just seems to agree on the fact that the world is better off with him in place and that they won't take him out because he doesn't actually do something actually detrimental. Even the assassin's guild doesn't accept contracts on him because it would only spoil the game. Only 1 other person has managed that feat for the exact same reason (also because it's nigh impossible to off him, they have tried). And Vetinari knows this. He knows exactly how he needs to operate to stay in place.

It might be anecdotal evidence, but he is the quintessential high INT/high WIS villain. High WIS may make for a great villain, but not one for the players to beat since high WIS would seek to negate any reason for the heroes to go after him.