[3.5] What's the lowest-level spell that does this?

[Chronos]

The spell Horrid Wilting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm) has very nice targeting, for a damage spell: You can hit any number of creatures, so long as they're not too far apart, while not hitting anything you don't want to. But it's also an 8th-level spell. Is there any lower-level spell with the same sort of targeting which does damage? I'm not greedy: I don't care about the amount of damage, nor its type. I just want something which will do a nonzero amount of damage to an arbitrary number of chosen targets. The effective area also needn't be as large as Horrid Wilting's, though being able to hit targets, say, 15' apart would be nice.

If it doesn't exist already, what would be a reasonable level for such a spell, assuming a trivial amount of damage like 1 point or 1d3?

In case anyone's wondering, the reason I would want it is for applying Fell Drain and the like. And yes, I know there are plenty of other ways of doing that (Sonic Snap, Magic Missile, etc.); I'd just like to add more options.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well it's not any number of targets, but chain lightning is lower level.

[TiaC]

Wings of flurry does this.

[Chronos]

I know about one-target-per-level spells-- The Mass Inflict spells would be another option there. But I'm looking for an arbitrary number of targets.

I'd forgotten about Wings of Flurry, though. That's even nicer than I remember: Selected targets, uncapped damage, and at a 30' radius it's approximately as big as Horrid Wilting (though not long-ranged).

Given that WoF is 4th, does that suggest that a spell that does only trivial damage, and maybe fire or cold or something instead of force, could be balanced at 2nd or 3rd?

[Erik Vale]

I'd say so, but I'm not your DM.

Now why?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say so, but I'm not your DM.

Now why?

Probably Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten.

Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm) with Snowcasting from Frostburn and Flash Frost Spell in PH2 deals 2 cold damage to just enemies within 50 ft. from a 2nd level spell slot.

[With a box]

How about Purify Spell if you are in good party?

the spell deals damage, neutral creatures take half damage, or one-quarter with a successful saving throw (if allowed), while good creatures take no damage at all. Evil outsiders affected by the spell take extra damage: The spell's damage is increased by one die type (http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/purify-spell--2306/)

[AMFV]

If you use Flash Frost Metamagic in conjunction with Snowcasting, then any spell can do damage (a small amount) and then you can use any spell to apply Fell Drain.

[dextercorvia]

Decomposition (Druid 2, SC) deals 3 points of festering damage to all enemies within a 50' radius that have been damaged. Combine with Sculpted Whirling Blade to inflict the wounds.

[Chronos]

Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:

Probably Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten.
Yup, as I said in the OP. And while I appreciate the options using other metamagic feats (flash frost, sculpt, purify, etc.), I'd expect the character to be spending most of his feats on Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, and feats to make those metamagics cost less.

[Segev]

A summoned swarm or two can spread a mild amount of damage around, and you can shape the area it encompasses.

If a Fell Drain swarm doesn't count as the spell dealing damage, then you can still use the swarm to do a little damage to render things vulnerable to Decomposition.

[Vorandril]

I cannot for the life of me remember which book or the name of the spell, but in the spell compendium is a magic missile thing that works amazingly. Kind of like Chain Lightning but as a Force effect. Great way to tell a swarm of Shadows that they should go home.

[dextercorvia]

Yup, as I said in the OP. And while I appreciate the options using other metamagic feats (flash frost, sculpt, purify, etc.), I'd expect the character to be spending most of his feats on Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, and feats to make those metamagics cost less.

Sculpt comes cheaply on either a metamagic rod.

My favorite seed for Fell X is a Blistering Raging Flame. Yes, that is one more metamagic feat, and no, it doesn't have the nice targeting ability of horrid wilting, but what it does have: The same effective area (no two more than 60 apart means everyone fits within a 30' radius), no saving throw, and no SR. Because of that it makes an excellent candidate for Arcane Thesis. Of course fire resistance/immunity is a thing, and a common one, but Searing takes care of that.

It was the best seed spell we could find when Shneekey was building the UPS Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208620-The-UPS-Man-Mailman-s-Brother).

Feats go something like

F - Blistering
F - Fell Drain
1 - Easy Fell Drain
3 - Fell Frighten
W5 - Either Easy Fell Frighten or Fell Weaken (If you are human you get both)
6 - Arcane Thesis Raging Flame

You get a limited version of your shtick going earlier, with Sonic Snap or Magic Missile. At level 6 you can start tossing out Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken/Blistering Raging flames from 1st level slots at medium range.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yup, as I said in the OP. And while I appreciate the options using other metamagic feats (flash frost, sculpt, purify, etc.), I'd expect the character to be spending most of his feats on Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, and feats to make those metamagics cost less.

Other than using metamagic to add damage to existing auto-targeting spells such as Bane (fifty-foot radius!), I don't think you're going to do much better than Kelgore's Grave Mist in PH2 for an AoE.

[Vogonjeltz]

Bane with Snowcasting from Frostburn and Flash Frost Spell in PH2 deals 2 cold damage to just enemies within 50 ft. from a 2nd level spell slot.

I was so excited to hear this, but then I went and read up on the metamagic and it doesn't work, flash frost spell deals extra damage, but bane doesn't do any damage at all.

*Frumple*

It would work with Burning Hands though, that deals damage.
Other area of effect options from the PHB that could work with Fell Drain/Frighten.
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Ice Storm
Shout
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Acid Fog
Chain Lightning
Freezing Sphere
Delayed Blast Fireball
Prismatic Spray
Incendiary Cloud
Shout, Greater
Sunburst
Meteor Swarm (in theory, requires an epic spell slot).

I might also include Explosive Runes and Fire Trap, because they act on an area, even if the spell descriptor doesn't say area.

[AMFV]

I was so excited to hear this, but then I went and read up on the metamagic and it doesn't work, flash frost spell deals extra damage, but bane doesn't do any damage at all.

*Frumple*

It would work with Burning Hands though, that deals damage.
Other area of effect options from the PHB that could work with Fell Drain/Frighten.
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Ice Storm
Shout
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Acid Fog
Chain Lightning
Freezing Sphere
Delayed Blast Fireball
Prismatic Spray
Incendiary Cloud
Shout, Greater
Sunburst
Meteor Swarm (in theory, requires an epic spell slot).

I might also include Explosive Runes and Fire Trap, because they act on an area, even if the spell descriptor doesn't say area.


Well 0 + 2 is still 2... It doesn't say it can only be applied to spells that do damage only that it causes spells to do extra damage, which suggests damage at all if the spell doesn't do any.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well 0 + 2 is still 2... It doesn't say it can only be applied to spells that do damage only that it causes spells to do extra damage, which suggests damage at all if the spell doesn't do any.

It doesn't do any damage though, that's emdash not 0. Extra carries an implication that there is damage already being dealt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't do any damage though, that's emdash not 0. Extra carries an implication that there is damage already being dealt.

Extra (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extra?s=t): beyond or more than what is usual, expected, or necessary; additional.

It does work, not making it work would be a house rule. Any spell with the cold descriptor that affects an area, such as Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) or Ice Slick in Frostburn, can be a Flash Frost Spell and deal an extra 2 cold damage per spell level.

[Chronos]

Are there multiple versions of Raging Flame? It looks to me like it doesn't do any damage at all, but instead buffs the damage from other fires.

Also, as a nitpick, "no two more than 60' apart" is slightly better than "30' radius". The former could handle an equilateral triangle with 60' sides, for instance, which you can't fit into a 30' radius. It's not likely to make a difference in actual play, though.

And what's so great about Kelgore's Grave Mist? It does friendly fire unless you're undead, and the radius isn't as large as some options.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are there multiple versions of Raging Flame? It looks to me like it doesn't do any damage at all, but instead buffs the damage from other fires.

Also, as a nitpick, "no two more than 60' apart" is slightly better than "30' radius". The former could handle an equilateral triangle with 60' sides, for instance, which you can't fit into a 30' radius. It's not likely to make a difference in actual play, though.

And what's so great about Kelgore's Grave Mist? It does friendly fire unless you're undead, and the radius isn't as large as some options.

Raging Flame has the fire descriptor, and Blistering Spell adds additional fire damage to it like Flash Frost does for cold spells.

Kelgore's Grave Mist also fatigues them, plus it does damage over several rounds, which by some interpretations will apply the effect of Fell Drain/Frighten on each round that a creature takes damage from it.

[Chronos]

Raging Flame has the fire descriptor, and Blistering Spell adds additional fire damage to it like Flash Frost does for cold spells.
Ah, got it. Though it looks like that'll damage everything in the area, not just selected targets. So it'd be like a glorified Fireball (with a larger area, lower level, and no SR). Still useful, but not what I'm looking for here.

[Randomguy]

Though not as good as the Raging Flame combination, Blistering Radiance is a 4th level wizard spell with with a 50 feet radius that does 2d6 per round for 1 round per level. It's a great army killer spell against an army of lower level enemies.

[dextercorvia]

Ah, got it. Though it looks like that'll damage everything in the area, not just selected targets. So it'd be like a glorified Fireball (with a larger area, lower level, and no SR). Still useful, but not what I'm looking for here.

Yeah, most of the selective area spells are higher level. I found a few in the SC by searching for "No two". Most of the low level spells are buffs.

Field of Icy Razors (S/W 8)

Or by searching for things with just Enemies in the Target line, that is how I got Decomposition. You also get:

Dirge (Bard 6) Deals ability damage, but I think that qualifies.
Lion's Roar (Cleric 8, Courage 8) Damages only enemies within a 120 foot burst.

[Segev]

I cannot for the life of me remember which book or the name of the spell, but in the spell compendium is a magic missile thing that works amazingly. Kind of like Chain Lightning but as a Force effect. Great way to tell a swarm of Shadows that they should go home.

It's called "Chain Missile" in the Spell Compendium, and it does (CL)d4+(CL) damage to a primary target, and then hits up to caster level secondary targets for 1d4+1 each. No saves, but you can't focus the secondary missiles on one target; you do d4+1 to each secondary, and no more.

edit: It caps out at CL 10, by the by, so it stops scaling there.

[dextercorvia]

It's called "Chain Missile" in the Spell Compendium, and it does (CL)d4+(CL) damage to a primary target, and then hits up to caster level secondary targets for 1d4+1 each. No saves, but you can't focus the secondary missiles on one target; you do d4+1 to each secondary, and no more.

edit: It caps out at CL 10, by the by, so it stops scaling there.

It caps out at CL 20, but you only get one missile per 2 levels, so it does cap at 10 missiles.

[Vogonjeltz]

Extra: beyond or more than what is usual, expected, or necessary; additional.

Yeah that's exactly what I said.

RAW it doesn't work, but feel free to houserule it.

Sleet Storm and Ice Slick don't deal damage, so they wouldn't be eligible in the standard rules.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah that's exactly what I said.

RAW it doesn't work, but feel free to houserule it.

Sleet Storm and Ice Slick don't deal damage, so they wouldn't be eligible in the standard rules.

Please cite your so-called 'standard rules' and include a page number.

If the expected damage value of a spell is zero, and Flash Frost Spell adds "beyond or more than what is usual, expected, or necessary" damage to it, then it works fine by RAW. The only thing that limits whether or not Flash Frost Spell can add damage to a spell is whether or not that spell has the cold descriptor.

[Anthrowhale]

If you want to avoid hitting friends, 'sculpt spell' should be pretty effective. It doesn't explicitly make a spell friendly to allies, but all the different shapes allowed make it plausible that you can hit every enemy and miss every ally in common combat situations.

[Vogonjeltz]

Please cite your so-called 'standard rules' and include a page number.

If the expected damage value of a spell is zero, and Flash Frost Spell adds "beyond or more than what is usual, expected, or necessary" damage to it, then it works fine by RAW. The only thing that limits whether or not Flash Frost Spell can add damage to a spell is whether or not that spell has the cold descriptor.

2 + deals no damage = deals no damage.

2 + 0 = 2. I don't know of any damage dealing spells that do 0 damage however.

[TiaC]

Decomposition (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/decomposition--4350/) won't start it, but it will keep it going.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

2 + deals no damage = deals no damage.

2 + 0 = 2. I don't know of any damage dealing spells that do 0 damage however.

You have no rules reference, you're making things up.

The only time something cannot be added to nothing is in the case of a nonability for an ability score, which only applies to creatures.

As one example of a comparable in-game effect that's opposite your position, take a Human with Barkskin cast on him. Barkskin + no natural armor = natural armor, but by your made-up rules he would not be able to benefit from this.

[Tytalus]

Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm) with Snowcasting from Frostburn and Flash Frost Spell in PH2 deals 2 cold damage to just enemies within 50 ft. from a 2nd level spell slot.

That's a great suggestion. Any idea how to get around the "will negates" and "SR: yes" to make this even more useful?

[Noldo]

You have no rules reference, you're making things up.

The only time something cannot be added to nothing is in the case of a nonability for an ability score, which only applies to creatures.

As one example of a comparable in-game effect that's opposite your position, take a Human with Barkskin cast on him. Barkskin + no natural armor = natural armor, but by your made-up rules he would not be able to benefit from this.

Barkskin is relative poor choice for counter to the argument, because the spell explicitly includes the following statement:


A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0.

I understand that interpretation that would destroy a number of TO spell tricks such as Locate City Bomb and similar would not be popular, but it is within RAW to interpret the Flash Frost to require there be some damage in the first place, especially once the text of the feat is compared to how Barkskin is formulated.

BTW, would you support different interpretation if the feat had been written "increases damage caused by spell by 2"?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a great suggestion. Any idea how to get around the "will negates" and "SR: yes" to make this even more useful?

I don't think the will save would negate the damage from flash frost, just the default effect of the spell itself. It would ultimately be up to a given DM to decide. Similarly, it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Fear, Mind-Affecting], but I don't think a target immune to one or all of those descriptors would also be immune to the cold damage that Flash Frost adds, since energy damage isn't mind-affecting or compulsory. SR could still be an issue, though.

You can Snowcast a Flash Frost Silent Image, which makes four 10-ft. cubes plus one 10-ft. cube/level and is shapeable. I'm not sure if a successful save would also negate the cold damage, again that would be up to a DM to decide, but it's SR: No and an extremely large potential area. It doesn't automatically miss allies but you get enough freedom with its area that you should be able to avoid hitting allies with it.


Barkskin is relative poor choice for counter to the argument, because the spell explicitly includes the following statement:

I understand that interpretation that would destroy a number of TO spell tricks such as Locate City Bomb and similar would not be popular, but it is within RAW to interpret the Flash Frost to require there be some damage in the first place, especially once the text of the feat is compared to how Barkskin is formulated.

BTW, would you support different interpretation if the feat had been written "increases damage caused by spell by 2"?

Amulet of Natural Armor then, same comparison.

Only creatures can have a nonability and a damage value is not a valid nonability. 0+2=2, and there's nothing in the metamagic feat's description that indicates it doesn't work with spells that deal no damage by default. The metamagic feat itself is all the rules reference anyone needs to prove that it works, your side has yet to cite any actual rules that would conflict with or override this. I am not going to entertain any more arguments on this that do not include a relevant rules reference including a book and page number.

[Chronos]

Bane says it's "Will negates", not "Will negates these specific effects". It seems pretty clear to me that a Will save negates the entire spell. Likewise, [Mind-affecting] and so on are properties of the entire spell, so something immune to mind-affecting will be immune to the entire effect.

[Segev]

Er... I get that you want to try to close off cheese with your house rule, but there is nothing in the rules that says a spell which does not say it deals any damage cannot ever deal damage. It simply doesn't say that it deals any. Add an effect that says "this spell deals one more damage than normal," and a spell which normally deals no damage now deals 1 damage.

Abilities that manipulate the amount of damage done "per die" (as there are a few which specify giving +1 damage per die or somesuch) would do nothing if the base spell normally deals no dice. 0x1=0. But when an ability simply adds damage, it can add it to any quantity of damage, even "none." And all not mentioning damage does is make it deal zero damage by default.


So, no, there's no interpretation of the RAW which makes it so that adding 2 damage to a spell which normally doesn't deal any results in 0 damage. It results in 2 damage. 2+0=2. No matter how you express "0."