Maximizing skill points?

[maniacalmojo]

I always enjoy playing intelligent rogues due to the massive amount of skill points they can have which can make a game really interesting so it comes up on how i can have a character with the maximum amount of skill points and skills possible.

I am not on the same level of optimization as some others here but as far as i have so far its

Changling, 18 Int
Swordsage 1 for 6+int x 6 at first level Take Nymphs kiss
Rogue 1 changling Alt class feature
Factotum 1, able learner
Rogue 18 with changling alt class feature


Thats what i have so far, was wondering about the playgrounds way to get max skill points.

[Flickerdart]

There's the Open-Minded feat from the XPH which you can take to immediately gain 5 skill points. You can Chaos Shuffle these indefinitely, or just take extras.

Primary Contact also grants a single skill point when taken.

[jiriku]

Don't overlook items and spells that grant you a bonus of "+x on ability checks and skill checks". An effect that grants you +2 on Strength-based checks, for example, is like getting +2 ranks of Climb, +2 ranks of Jump, +2 ranks of Swim, etc. Also, masterwork tools grant a +2 bonus, most of them cost 50gp, and they're very much overlooked by most folks.

[torrasque666]

There's the Open-Minded feat from the XPH which you can take to immediately gain 5 skill points. You can Chaos Shuffle these indefinitely, or just take extras.

Primary Contact also grants a single skill point when taken.

I think those are removed when Shuffled. Like how a Human's Bonus Feat and Skill Point are removed when shifiting into something else.

[Ellowryn]

Nymph's Kiss gives +1 skill point per level, plus a +2 bonus on all cha based skills.

Or i could read the whole OP post BEFORE i post, cause yeah.

Item familiar gives you a bunch of bonus skill points, if you dump all your normal skillpoints into the item.

[Vaz]

I think those are removed when Shuffled. Like how a Human's Bonus Feat and Skill Point are removed when shifiting into something else.

Um, what? The Skill Points are unaffected by Shuffling. You mean Alter Selfing/Polymorphing, right?

What he means (I think) is that you Dark Chaos Shuffle to remove Open Minded, costing you the 5 skill points, then add in Open Minded, and reallocate the skill points. If you have access to Temporary feats (like the Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone/Familiar/Psicrystal/Soulmelds/Heroics/Magic Items etc), then you can gain as many skill points as you desire using this method of the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

If custom Magic Items are allowed, then in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide, there is the ability to get a Magic Item with the feat "Open Minded" worth 10K, IIRC. It's a decent reward for a skill monkey, especially if they're prestiging into a less diverse PrC (because lets face it, very little has more skill points than say a Changeling Rogue with an Int Focus). Just... don't let them say "I take cross-class ranks in Lucid Dreaming".

[Heliomance]

Swordsage 1 for 6+int x 6 at first level Take Nymphs kiss


While never errata'd (because the errata for the ToB is a joke), that is an obvious typo on the same level as the Scorpion Whip doing d34 damage. No DM would ever allow it, and it's not a thing that really gets used even in TO discussions.

[Thurbane]

While never errata'd (because the errata for the ToB is a joke), that is an obvious typo on the same level as the Scorpion Whip doing d34 damage. No DM would ever allow it, and it's not a thing that really gets used even in TO discussions.

I was about to say this had been errata'd, then I remember the broken errata document they released for ToB.

But yes, it is generally and widely accepted that this is a typo, pure and simple. If you can get your DM to let it fly, then more power to you.

Also note that the Able Learner feat has to be taken at 1st level.

[Chronos]

Able Learner is mostly irrelevant if all of your levels are in high-skill classes, anyway. If you're already a rogue, then realistically, how many skills do you really want that aren't already class skills?

And in the long run, you're better off with human (or grey elf) than with changeling. The changeling rogue substitution levels only give you extra skill points for three levels, while human gives you extra every level.

Just to be clear, is your goal high total skill modifiers, or just the skill points themselves? If the latter, then it's just a matter of maxing your Int, taking all your levels in rogue or other 8-point classes, and taking Nymph's Kiss once and all other feats to Open-Minded. Higher total modifiers is much more complicated, and depends to some degree on just which skills you want to max out.

[ddude987]

While never errata'd (because the errata for the ToB is a joke), that is an obvious typo on the same level as the Scorpion Whip doing d34 damage. No DM would ever allow it, and it's not a thing that really gets used even in TO discussions.

I've actually allowed it whenever I run a full on raw one shot campaign

[Gildedragon]

Note that for maximum skillpoints, level 1 as a changeling rogue gives you more Skillpoints
however changeling rogue (10 skillpoints over 3 levels) nets you only 12 bonus skillpoints (assuming rogue at level 1), whereas in a 20 level build Human is a better choice, with that bonus skillpoint giving 23 bonus skillpoints

The wild template from Dr 306 grants an extra skillpoint per level (as human, does not stack with a human's) at LA +0, but it drops int by 2 (which makes total skillpoints not really change)
the deep template (same issue) has LA +1 but boosts int.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that for maximum skillpoints, level 1 as a changeling rogue gives you more Skillpoints
however changeling rogue (10 skillpoints over 3 levels) nets you only 12 bonus skillpoints (assuming rogue at level 1), whereas in a 20 level build Human is a better choice, with that bonus skillpoint giving 23 bonus skillpoints
I've seen that advice a lot, but realize that any race which provides +2 INT will yield the same skill points as a Human. My favorite race for a Rogue is Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 19): +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 CHA. They've got the usual Elf traits (+2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot), but also +1 on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. So that's the same skill points as a Human, and +8 racial total to skill modifiers. Additionally these Elves have Elvensight: a combo of low-light vision and darkvision 30'.

[ShurikVch]

Note that for maximum skillpoints, level 1 as a changeling rogue gives you more Skillpoints
however changeling rogue (10 skillpoints over 3 levels) nets you only 12 bonus skillpoints (assuming rogue at level 1), whereas in a 20 level build Human is a better choice, with that bonus skillpoint giving 23 bonus skillpoints

The wild template from Dr 306 grants an extra skillpoint per level (as human, does not stack with a human's) at LA +0, but it drops int by 2 (which makes total skillpoints not really change)
the deep template (same issue) has LA +1 but boosts int.
Wild's extra skill points explicitly NOT stack with human's extra skill points, so wild human rogue will be waste of Int and Cha

On the other hand, changeling can take racial feat Human Blood (Dr #324). (Changelings qualify, because they are distant descendants of humans and doppelgangers) Feat give +1 skill point per level, and "for all effects relating to race, you are considered a human". (Dunno if it will stack with Wild or not)

[Gildedragon]

Wild's extra skill points explicitly NOT stack with human's extra skill points, so wild human rogue will be waste of Int and Cha

On the other hand, changeling can take racial feat Human Blood (Dr #324). (Changelings qualify, because they are distant descendants of humans and doppelgangers) Feat give +1 skill point per level, and "for all effects relating to race, you are considered a human". (Dunno if it will stack with Wild or not)

I did say it does not stack.
As to the feat: yeap that would stack.
Still with wild's int penalty best to not use that and opt for a +2 int race.

[Gildedragon]

I've seen that advice a lot, but realize that any race which provides +2 INT will yield the same skill points as a Human. My favorite race for a Rogue is Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 19): +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 CHA. They've got the usual Elf traits (+2 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot), but also +1 on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. So that's the same skill points as a Human, and +8 racial total to skill modifiers. Additionally these Elves have Elvensight: a combo of low-light vision and darkvision 30'.

Indeed. But the extra feat does mean Nymph's Kiss at 1 + whatever feat would be taken otherwise

Still +2 int is (in all skill monkey cases) better than +1 skill point per level.

[Anlashok]

While never errata'd (because the errata for the ToB is a joke), that is an obvious typo on the same level as the Scorpion Whip doing d34 damage. No DM would ever allow it, and it's not a thing that really gets used even in TO discussions.

Honestly I've never seen a DM not allow it. It's probably a typo but not one that causes any significant problem and gives the class a neat gimmick. Treating it like it's some heinously broken exploit as you are seems kinda silly.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't allow it - Swordsage doesn't need the help and "most skill points" was probably the rogue's last claim to fame.

@OP: While you're racking up the skill points, you may as well see about buying every skill trick ever.

[Chronos]

Quoth Guigarci:

Still +2 int is (in all skill monkey cases) better than +1 skill point per level.
As far as skill points, it's exactly the same. I assume you're saying it's better because it's also +1 to Int-based skills, but the flip side of that is that ability score bonuses are paired with either penalties in other scores, or LA. Now, +2 Int is usually paired with -2 Str, and Int-based skills are for the most part more useful than Str-based ones, but it's still up for some debate.

[ShurikVch]

Still +2 int is (in all skill monkey cases) better than +1 skill point per level. Wright in your character's backstory "was afflicted with the Warp Touch, got"
71–72 Head swells: +4 deformity bonus to Int.

"Riddled" dragon get +6 to Int

If you OK to play CE undead, then Ghoulish, Ghastly, and Scion of Kyuss all get +2 Int (and unchanged LA, because not mentioned)

[Vaz]

I wouldn't allow it - Swordsage doesn't need the help and "most skill points" was probably the rogue's last claim to fame.

@OP: While you're racking up the skill points, you may as well see about buying every skill trick ever.

I thought you could only get one a level? Misremembering, maybe or houserule, ppossibly.

[Gildedragon]

I wouldn't allow it - Swordsage doesn't need the help and "most skill points" was probably the rogue's last claim to fame.

@OP: While you're racking up the skill points, you may as well see about buying every skill trick ever.

There was a thread a while back wondering at what level would a factotum max out all skills and skill tricks
it was somewhere around level 200 iirc

[nedz]

I thought you could only get one a level? Misremembering, maybe or houserule, ppossibly.

1 / 2 levels IIRC, though there are Feats, and PrCs, which allow you more.
Though how many are actually useful to any given character is usually more of an issue.

[Curmudgeon]

Honestly I've never seen a DM not allow it. It's probably a typo but not one that causes any significant problem and gives the class a neat gimmick.
As Psyren noted, that "neat gimmick" comes at the expense of relatively devaluing the highly skilled classes (Rogue, Scout, & c.).

From the Player's Handbook Errata file:
Wizards of the Coast supplies the preceding errata information in the hopes that it helps you better enjoy your DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game. Errata in this file includes material that the Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D department and editors feel might affect your gameplay experience. It does not include minor, typographical errors—the sort of thing that might be fixed in a reprint but has no impact on your game. In other words, every DM is supposed to notice and automatically correct for typos; WotC doesn't feel it's worth their time to try to point them all out.

[sideswipe]

While never errata'd (because the errata for the ToB is a joke), that is an obvious typo on the same level as the Scorpion Whip doing d34 damage. No DM would ever allow it, and it's not a thing that really gets used even in TO discussions.

what is it with whips and typo's? in the phb on at least one occasion it was printed with a whip doing D33 damage

[Chronos]

To those saying they give the swordsage their typoed skill points: Do you also give them their typoed BAB progression?

[Curmudgeon]

To those saying they give the swordsage their typoed skill points: Do you also give them their typoed BAB progression?
I'd guess that's likely, too: it's another benefit that makes the Swordsage slightly superior to classes without the errors. If the error worked in the other direction I'm guessing that sub-par performance wouldn't be embraced as readily.

[AvatarVecna]

Maximizing Skill points can be quick and easy. By comparing options to a baseline build, you can determine what options are superior. Something to keep in mind: the general rule is that an increase in a base attribute increases character aspects based on that attribute. This is why, when your Con mod increases, so too does your HP total. For some reason, Intelligence has a specific rule countering this general rule in regards to skill points. Note that this doesn't apply to other things increasing skill points per level, like the Human-Blooded feat of Nymph's Kiss feat. Thus, one thing to keep in mind is that the quicker you can raise your Int, the more skill points you'll get. Something else to keep in mind: any bonus feat where Open-Minded isn't an option can be Chaos Shuffled into Open-Minded. Thus, the more bonus feats we can accumulate, the more skill points the build will have.

The Int +5 Tome is first purchasable at 14th lvl by WBL, but is likely affordable somewhere during 13th level logically. So let's assume our character gets +5 inherent between 13th and 14th lvl, having the extra Int available at 14th lvl.

My Skilled Build

Race: Changeling
Classes: Rogue 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Rogue +11/Monk 1/Ranger 1
ACFs: Martial Rogue (UA); Changeling Rogue Racial Sub. Lvls
Flaws: 2
Feats: Nymph's Kiss (1st); Racial Emulation (Half-Elf) (1st); Able Learner (1st); Human-Blooded (3rd); all other feats (18 total) Chaos Shuffled into Open-Minded.
Total SP at ECL 20: 460 (20 skills at 23 skill ranks each)


Of course, with gestalt, Pathfinder, or 3.P gestalt, this gets even more ridiculous: Pathfinder doesn't have that specific rule overriding the general rule, so increases to Int accumulate skill points. Also, favored class bonuses, and more feats, and Lore Warden Fighter, and gestalt. Also, higher WBL means that book is affordable a level earlier. There's also less total skills, so you have a larger percent of skills maxed out.

My Skilled Build (3.P gestalt)

Race: Half-Elf
Classes: Guile Rogue 20//Wizard 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Monk 1/SoulKnife 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 10
ACFs/Archetypes: True Professional Rogue; Changeling Rogue Racial Sub. Lvls; Lore Warden Fighter
Favored Class Bonus: Rogue; Skill Point
Flaws: 2
Feats: Nymph's Kiss (1st); Human-Blooded (1st); Racial Heritage (Changeling) (1st). All other feats (35 total) are Chaos Shuffled into Open-Minded.
Total SP: 701 at 20th lvl; 35 skills at 20 ranks each. It should be noted that, excluding all flavors of Craft, Perform, and Profession, there are 32 skills (34 if you count the psionic skills). Virtually every skill maxed out by 20th lvl? Not too shabby.