Zodar abuse!

[Melcar]

The whole Zodar wish abuse got me thinking...

1) Does the Wish ability cost exp for the character who have shapechanged into the Zodar? And is it videly accepted that by changing back to human and then into a Zodar again, you get another use of the wish ability?

2) Could this wish ability be used to increase ability scores (inherent) of the caster of shapechange?

I would very much like both a RAW and a RAI/ would you allow this at your table answer.

Thanks!

[Psyren]

1a RAW) No, it would not cost XP because Su abilities have no XP cost unless specifically stated otherwise (which Zodar does not.)
1b RAW) You would get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures, thus you would not be changing into the same Zodar each time.
2 RAW) Yes, you can use the Wish to do whatever Wishes can do.

"Would I allow it" isn't really RAI, that's more "what did the designer intend you to do with this."

[Melcar]

1a RAW) No, it would not cost XP because Su abilities have no XP cost unless specifically stated otherwise (which Zodar does not.)
1b RAW) You would get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures, thus you would not be changing into the same Zodar each time.
2 RAW) Yes, you can use the Wish to do whatever Wishes can do.

"Would I allow it" isn't really RAI, that's more "what did the designer intend you to do with this."

Thanks...

Indeed it is, but then instead of RAI, whould you allow it?

[Psyren]

That more or less depends on the power level of the campaign. I'd probably allow it (since any campaign that is using Shapechange at all is already high-powered.) If I was in a campaign where the Zodar's power was a concern, Shapechange itself would likely be on the chopping block too.

[Chronos]

1b RAW) You would get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures, thus you would not be changing into the same Zodar each time.
Correction: You would not get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures. If Mialee the Wizard casts Shapechange, she turns into Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to an elf and to a zodar again, she's again Mialee the Zodar, and Mialee the Zodar has used her one Wish. She can't turn into Bob the Zodar one time, and then Frank the Zodar the next, because she can't turn into specific creatures.

That said, though, by the time you get to the optimization level where you're shapechanging into a zodar, it's not hard to turn one Wish into multiples: Wish for a Candle of Invocation, then call an efreet, for instance.

[Vorandril]

I wouldn't allow it. My games are all geared towards exploring a story or setting. If a player just wants to break the system they can do so on their own time instead of wasting mine by making the ostensibly cooperative game into more of a "HA HA I WIN NEINER NEINER!"

I'm ok with optimizing characters to an extent. Just not exploiting the game.

[Psyren]

Correction: You would not get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures. If Mialee the Wizard casts Shapechange, she turns into Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to an elf and to a zodar again, she's again Mialee the Zodar, and Mialee the Zodar has used her one Wish.

That's my point, there is no "Mialee the Zodar" - that would be a specific creature. You're just a generic Zodar, and generic Zodars can wish.

[Nilehus]

Correction: You would not get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures. If Mialee the Wizard casts Shapechange, she turns into Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to an elf and to a zodar again, she's again Mialee the Zodar, and Mialee the Zodar has used her one Wish. She can't turn into Bob the Zodar one time, and then Frank the Zodar the next, because she can't turn into specific creatures.

That said, though, by the time you get to the optimization level where you're shapechanging into a zodar, it's not hard to turn one Wish into multiples: Wish for a Candle of Invocation, then call an efreet, for instance.

I read it the complete opposite way. You don't turn into Mialee the Zodar every single time, because you're still turning into a specific Zodar. You turn into a generic Zodar that isn't associated with any you previously turned into.

I still wouldn't allow it as I tend to run in low-optimization campaigns, but that's my reading.

Edit: Darnit, Psyren.

[Red Fel]

Players who think they're smart try to use this cheese in a game.

Players who are smart realize that any game-breaking trick they try to pull can also be used by the DM, and shouldn't be remotely surprised when the BBEG has basically taken their cheese and made art out of it.

Would I allow it? Yes, but with the above warning. I would then observe every trick my players used, and consider whether my BBEG would be willing/able to employ similar methods.

Then I'd summon Orcus make the fight really challenging summon Orcus.

[Psyren]

Edit: Darnit, Psyren.

No worries, confirmation is good :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

Players who think they're smart try to use this cheese in a game.

Players who are smart realize that any game-breaking trick they try to pull can also be used by the DM, and shouldn't be remotely surprised when the BBEG has basically taken their cheese and made art out of it.

Would I allow it? Yes, but with the above warning. I would then observe every trick my players used, and consider whether my BBEG would be willing/able to employ similar methods.

Then I'd summon Orcus make the fight really challenging summon Orcus.

Which means if your BBEG is an ancient red dragon who spends a lot of days in his lair being bored - said dragon has shapechanged into a Zodar several times a day for centuries, and added to their ability scores each time, and now has a low ability score (Dexterity) of 9,217.

Shivering Touch *this*, wizard.

[Vhaidara]

Which means if your BBEG is an ancient red dragon who spends a lot of days in his lair being bored - said dragon has shapechanged into a Zodar several times a day for centuries, and added to their ability scores each time, and now has a low ability score (Dexterity) of 9,217.

Shivering Touch *this*, wizard.

Inherent bonuses can't exceed +5, per this

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

[Psyren]

You would also have to define "immediate succession." It may be impossible to get +5 through Zodar wishes since you have to keep Shapechanging in between castings. (Though again, in a high power campaign I'd allow it.)

[Segev]

Technically, a generic Zodar can Wish once per year.

Nothing in you turning into a generic creature says each generic creature is uniquely distinct, with distinct uses of abilities, from the one you were a moment before.

It is not debatable that you are a new creature when you shapechange into something. You are not. You are still you.

Just because you turn into "a" generic Zodar does not mean you do not turn into the same generic Zodar. Nothing about "generic" says "new each time." It just says "no salient differences from other average Zodars."

Other generic Zodars which have used their (Su) Wish once this year already cannot use it again. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to rule that the generic Zodar that Mialee becomes has used its (Su) Wish two rounds ago. Again, nothing says she's not the SAME generic Zodar. Nothing says she's a "new" generic Zodar. You could argue that nothing says she IS the same and IS NOT new, but now you're throwing it back into "DM's call" territory, without having to resort to rule 0.

[Melcar]

You would also have to define "immediate succession." It may be impossible to get +5 through Zodar wishes since you have to keep Shapechanging in between castings. (Though again, in a high power campaign I'd allow it.)

The players has already made one +5 int tome, but this would save a lot of exp. And the character is level 30. Moreover its true that it only allows for a max of +5 bonus to ability scores.

The question was namly whether or not it could be used to gain +5 to ability scores, which needs consecutive castings of wish. WOuld it be possible to do this by changing shape multiple times.?

[Bronk]

You would also have to define "immediate succession." It may be impossible to get +5 through Zodar wishes since you have to keep Shapechanging in between castings. (Though again, in a high power campaign I'd allow it.)

I think you're technically still fine on that count, since immediate succession would be considered once per round, and changing form is a free action. In that case, you're still casting as fast as you can.

On the other hand, if you had to, you could just have two characters doing this and bootstrapping each other up by alternating castings.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If all your players are using infinite wishes for are free inherent ability boni you should count yourself lucky. Allowing infinite wishes has a lot of repercussions.

If you allow it you pretty much have to tailor your whole campaign around that level of power.
Standard enemies from the MM don't really cut it for a high power game so you'll have to build pretty much every encounter by hand.
Your party will most likely consist of all full casters with PrCs like Incantatrix/Planar Shepherd and an Artificer.
WBL goes out the window - every half competent caster can get unlimited wealth once you take arbitrary DM restrictions out of the equation, even before free wishes.

That's not a task for an inexperienced DM and players without at least some op-fu will probably not have much fun with it. YMMV.

[Vaz]

Correction: You would not get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures. If Mialee the Wizard casts Shapechange, she turns into Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to an elf and to a zodar again, she's again Mialee the Zodar, and Mialee the Zodar has used her one Wish. She can't turn into Bob the Zodar one time, and then Frank the Zodar the next, because she can't turn into specific creatures.

Neat houserule.

[Twilightwyrm]

Neat houserule.

Wouldn't call that so much a house rule as a valid DM interpretation. An interpretation specific to that group perhaps, but nothing about it seems to violate the RAW, hence it seems a legitimate, if apparently uncommon, interpretation.

[icefractal]

It doesn't really matter though. Once you combine wishing for items (standard 3.5) with even a single XP-free Wish, you get infinite everything out of it. For example:

1) Wish for a scroll with 100 copies of Wish (scrolls can have more than one spell), each of which has 1 googolplex of XP invested in it.
2) Use each of those wishes for another scroll with 100 Wishes. These second-gen Wishes will have a few orders of magnitude less XP, but since you started at a googolplex you're not going to run out before dying of old age.
3) Arbitrarily large army of arbitrarily strong minions. Campaign pointless.

[DawnQuixotic]

It seems to me this is one of those oversight things in making a monster without considering shapechange in the equation.

It's something the rule writers should have established whether or not a form's abilities "regenerate" when you change.

But most Ex or Su abilities aren't "x times per y" so it's not normally an issue.

Is the main problem here with wish? It seems it'd be less problematic to have their use of a 1/day Su ability regenerate between shifts, but I can't find another one.

[Segev]

It doesn't really matter though. Once you combine wishing for items (standard 3.5) with even a single XP-free Wish, you get infinite everything out of it. For example:

1) Wish for a scroll with 100 copies of Wish (scrolls can have more than one spell), each of which has 1 googolplex of XP invested in it.
2) Use each of those wishes for another scroll with 100 Wishes. These second-gen Wishes will have a few orders of magnitude less XP, but since you started at a googolplex you're not going to run out before dying of old age.
3) Arbitrarily large army of arbitrarily strong minions. Campaign pointless.

Wish cannot safely generate items as expensive as that. Even 1 wish-scroll costs more than 25,000 gp, the limit of "safe" wishes. The DM is perfectly in his rights to screw with your wish or even have it fail if you wish for more than that.

[Doc_Maynot]

Wish cannot safely generate items as expensive as that. Even 1 wish-scroll costs more than 25,000 gp, the limit of "safe" wishes. The DM is perfectly in his rights to screw with your wish or even have it fail if you wish for more than that.

That's the limit on nonmagical items. With magic items one is supposed to add an additional XP cost to the spell, but since it's an Su Ability...

[Psyren]

Wish cannot safely generate items as expensive as that. Even 1 wish-scroll costs more than 25,000 gp, the limit of "safe" wishes. The DM is perfectly in his rights to screw with your wish or even have it fail if you wish for more than that.

That limit only applies to nonmagical items. Magic items, perversely, can be as ridiculous as you imagine since Su Wish costs no XP.

[Melcar]

That limit only applies to nonmagical items. Magic items, perversely, can be as ridiculous as you imagine since Su Wish costs no XP.

Pardon me... are you saying that wish can be used to wish for a +12 headband of intellect?

[Doc_Maynot]

Pardon me... are you saying that wish can be used to wish for a +12 headband of intellect?

Unless I am incorrect in thinking that there is a +6 limit save for the DMG custom item rules which have to be approved, no.

If I am incorrect or you are using the DMG rules, then yes. You could make a headband of Puns granting you +1000 to all stats, plus what ever other magic items bonuses you want.

[Svata]

Even if it doesn't, and you do have to wait a year, all you have to do is mix in some Genesis abuse. Fast-time planes erase all your problems.

[Vaz]

Where does it say Time can be changed by Genesis?

Hint; it doesn't.

However the trick holds true, just go the Plane of Dreams instead.

[Melcar]

Unless I am incorrect in thinking that there is a +6 limit save for the DMG custom item rules which have to be approved, no.

If I am incorrect or you are using the DMG rules, then yes. You could make a headband of Puns granting you +1000 to all stats, plus what ever other magic items bonuses you want.

I was thinking the ELH rules. Which is used at our table. With a few modifications. But I guess that would constitute an unsafe wish...


Anyways... it wold seem that most intepretations would allow for a new wish each times the zodar form is assumed. And that it does not cost exp. What is more doubtfull is whether it can be used in such a quick succesion as to grant a +5 inherent bonus to stats.

And even less clear is whether or not it should be allowed. Personally I think that it would be possible, but I'm not the DM at this table.

I think I would dis-allow it in a non-epic, low optimized game, but in a mid to high epic, I think I would. Especially when +2-3 modifiers aint gonna break a game at that level... what you think?

[Shining Wrath]

Inherent bonuses can't exceed +5, per this

Hmmmmpppppph.

How many wishes, applied like a slow drip of water over the centuries, are required to remove that limitation? And were I to enter the realm of Depraved Rudisplork RAW interpretation, I'd say that it refers to immediate uses of wishes, not extended use over years.

[squiggit]

I'd say that it refers to immediate uses of wishes, not extended use over years.

It very explicitly is, but not in a good way, as normally bonuses of the same type don't stack. The +5 with 5 immediate wishes is a specific exception that makes it better for you, not worse.

You could wish for a higher inherent bonus, or a different type of bonus as well, but that goes into "extra stuff" territory where a GM is free to screw with you.

[Melcar]

A thought pop into my head. Could wish be safely used to wish for a +5 tome?


"Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

[Vogonjeltz]

1) Does the Wish ability cost exp for the character who have shapechanged into the Zodar? And is it videly accepted that by changing back to human and then into a Zodar again, you get another use of the wish ability?

2) Could this wish ability be used to increase ability scores (inherent) of the caster of shapechange?

I would very much like both a RAW and a RAI/ would you allow this at your table answer.

1) I'm not sure now. I was going to say no, and provide a text quote from the SRD20, but only Spell-like abilities are listed as having no components...Supernatural are not. Does anyone know if this is resolved elsewhere? As for the cooldown, it's my understanding that an ability is an ability is an ability. So if you use a 1/round ability, you can't use that ability again until the next round happens, regardless of how you have that ability. (i.e. If you have a 1/week ability to remove disease, and you gain a negative level and then get rid of said negative level, getting your level back, you wouldn't be able to re-use the 1/week ability).

Similar idea with spell slots, imagine a Sorcerer uses all their 9th level castings, then gives themselves a negative level and removes the negative levels. Do they get to recast all those spells again? I say, no way jose.

As to the idea being widely accepted? I don't know. Popularity isn't Truth though, so I'd be wary of equating the two.

2) Yes, it's still wish. Granted, you could only do it once a year, so you'd need some other access to get more than a +1 inherent.

Those answers are based on the rules as I can find them. I think they also click with the rules as intended.

*I didn't put this in before the discussion about if Shapechange changes your identity. As far as I can tell, it doesn't, you retain your own mind. So Mialee is always Mialee. Changing her form doesn't change who she is, just what she is.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think I would dis-allow it in a non-epic, low optimized game, but in a mid to high epic, I think I would. Especially when +2-3 modifiers aint gonna break a game at that level... what you think?

The problem isn't an additional +2-3 modifier on ability scores. By epic levels everyone has enough money to get the inherent bonus at least to his main abilities.

The problem is that you have approved unlimited free wishes. Unless you make a completely arbitrary "because i say so" ruling to limit its power that opens up a lot of abuse, chief among them unlimited WBL and any magic item you can think of, free and instantly available.

It's close to impossible to balance that because the only credible threats to your players will be beings of equal power. Any fights will come down to who makes the longest list of "stuff i have wished for".
I can not imagine having any kind of meaningful gameplay in a world like that.

[Melcar]

The problem isn't an additional +2-3 modifier on ability scores. By epic levels everyone has enough money to get the inherent bonus at least to his main abilities.

The problem is that you have approved unlimited free wishes. Unless you make a completely arbitrary "because i say so" ruling to limit its power that opens up a lot of abuse, chief among them unlimited WBL and any magic item you can think of, free and instantly available.

It's close to impossible to balance that because the only credible threats to your players will be beings of equal power. Any fights will come down to who makes the longest list of "stuff i have wished for".
I can not imagine having any kind of meaningful gameplay in a world like that.

I see your point... and its very valid. Its for that exact reason that the character hasn't gotten an ice-assassin aleax of him self, or shapechanged into a Sarrukh and just given him self all the (Su) abilities in the game.

The player/all of us still wants to have fun, but also acknowledges that at level 30+ many things and balances gets screwed. And thought this wouldn't un-hindge the game. But I totally see that allowing this free wish ability to have no cost and unlimited uses is like opening pandoras box. What to do, what to do...

[Vorandril]

What to do, what to do...

Rule 0.

Just say no. =P

[Snowbluff]

I am of the opinion that you have to wait a year. You don't turn into a specific Zodar, but if you are saying you are turning into a Zodar, who is to say that the Zodar hasn't used its wish.

More practically, you are a creature. "Zodar" refers to the creature. You are the Zodar. "Has this creature, which is a Zodar, made a Su Wish in the last year?''

[icefractal]

A thought pop into my head. Could wish be safely used to wish for a +5 tome?
Yes. It would cost an ass-load of XP if you're not cheating it, but it is possible.

In fact, non-cheated high value Wish items are an interesting element in a Tippyverse-esque setting. For example, let's say you're building some magic infrastructure. You need a lot of Decanters of Endless Water for various projects. You could either:
A) Build a bunch of Decanters, at 360 xp each.
B) Build a Decanter foundry, for 583,016 xp. Pays off at a bit over 1600 decanters, maybe worth it if your empire is large enough.
C) Build a Wish Scroll (+800 xp) printing press, for 1,701,616 xp. This allows you to create any item that costs 400 xp or less (so up to 10K price, for most items), and the scrolls it produces can be transported around to make things on-site. Pays off at over 4700 decanters, but probably before that because you can make other things that your empire requires as well.

Note: Not applying discounts for immobility, because I'm not sure how they'd interact with the component cost element (by far the majority of the price).


Now imagine the kind of massive undertaking such a crafting product would be, involving either massive quantities of XP-substituting components like Liquid Pain, or hundreds of lesser crafters making thousands of items so that the master crafter (an Artificer) can break them all down to yield the enormous craft reserve necessary for this project.

And the ridiculous security such a valuable linch-pin of the empire would require! Not only incredibly valuable to steal, but also a prime target for enemy agents. It generates dozens of plots just by existing!

[Chronos]

Quoth Vaz:

Where does it say Time can be changed by Genesis?
Where it says "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize.". The spellcaster can visualize time flowing at a particular rate. Furthermore, every plane must have a time trait, and there's nothing else in the spell that specifies what time trait the new demiplane gets: If it's not chosen by the caster, then how is it determined?

[Graypairofsocks]

A thought pop into my head. Could wish be safely used to wish for a +5 tome?

According to what the text of Wish says you can wish for, yes.

[gooddragon1]

If you wish to go down the path of non-rules cheese...

It just says:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

The only component you need to meet is the XP cost (it does not mention needing to have the feats, the caster level, or any other prerequisites). Which you meet infinitely. Which means that a DM who does not limit you to existing items can grant you the ability to make any item you can imagine that does anything. So if your DM was a computer you could use this as a way to grant yourself manipulate form.

[Somensjev]

Similar idea with spell slots, imagine a Sorcerer uses all their 9th level castings, then gives themselves a negative level and removes the negative levels. Do they get to recast all those spells again? I say, no way jose.

that example is very different from the zodar discussion

also, from the SRD

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

okay, so you're non-unique, which means you're no longer mialee, since mialee is a unique creature, no matter what form she is in. you are in the body of a zodar who didn't exist 6 seconds ago, and will cease existing once you change form again, you do however have the mind of mialee

you also gain all supernatural abilities of this zodar, obviously including the wish. Now, this zodar is completely non-unique, but a zodar who has used their wish differs from a normal zodar, doesn't it? and if that's true, then you must have your wish, to fulfill the "non-unique" part

[Melcar]

If you wish to go down the path of non-rules cheese...

It just says:


The only component you need to meet is the XP cost (it does not mention needing to have the feats, the caster level, or any other prerequisites). Which you meet infinitely. Which means that a DM who does not limit you to existing items can grant you the ability to make any item you can imagine that does anything. So if your DM was a computer you could use this as a way to grant yourself manipulate form.

Im not quite sure I understand what you're saying here...

What still alludes me is, whether or not a Zodar using wish, would have to pay the huge xp amount of a tome or any other item for that matter. I have found that (Sp) abilities cost no xp, but (Su) are not as clear. Any thoughts on this?



I am of the opinion that you have to wait a year. You don't turn into a specific Zodar, but if you are saying you are turning into a Zodar, who is to say that the Zodar hasn't used its wish.

More practically, you are a creature. "Zodar" refers to the creature. You are the Zodar. "Has this creature, which is a Zodar, made a Su Wish in the last year?''

I have to say that I dont think Shapechange "possesses" the creature like you describe here. The creature is effectively created as a new one of the sort. If it did function as you describe, you could be unlucky and turn into a blind version of a creature because it had been in a battle during the last year and lost its eyes or something like that... and that would very much mean turning into a specific creature with specific experiences/memories... And that I dont believe is how the spell works. As I read Shapechange you turn into a new/mint version of what ever it is you turn into with fresh abilities every time. Yes that can be very abusive, but that's how I understand the spell.

[Somensjev]

Im not quite sure I understand what you're saying here...

What still alludes me is, whether or not a Zodar using wish, would have to pay the huge xp amount of a tome or any other item for that matter. I have found that (Sp) abilities cost no xp, but (Su) are not as clear. Any thoughts on this?

IIRC, no, they don't have to, however, i may be wrong

[Vaz]

Where it says "The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize.". The spellcaster can visualize time flowing at a particular rate. Furthermore, every plane must have a time trait, and there's nothing else in the spell that specifies what time trait the new demiplane gets: If it's not chosen by the caster, then how is it determined?

I say again, where does it say you can modify time? It goves a list of things which can be modified, time not falling within any of those boundaries, and time being independent of any english definition of environment.

The way it was put forward originally was 'it doesn't say you can't'.

[Bronk]

What still alludes me is, whether or not a Zodar using wish, would have to pay the huge xp amount of a tome or any other item for that matter. I have found that (Sp) abilities cost no xp, but (Su) are not as clear. Any thoughts on this?


Okay, so the srd stipulates only that SLAs don't require components, while supernatural abilities do not say that.

However, the Dweomerkeeper ability 'Supernatural Spell' does say that because it's supernatural, it doesn't use components.

But then, the Rules Compendium reiterated the wording of the SRD (what a waste of space).

I'm not sure where that leaves you rules-wise.

Meanwhile, the Zodar supernatural wish ability isn't normal either, because it calls out the wish as working as if cast as a 'sorcerer of the same level of its hit dice'. That might mean that it needs to use XP for the wish after all. As far as I know, this wasn't updated in the fiend folio update booklet.

[eggynack]

I say again, where does it say you can modify time? It goves a list of things which can be modified, time not falling within any of those boundaries, and time being independent of any english definition of environment.
We just had this argument about 16 days ago. The arguments acting against you now are the same ones then, and they're listed right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361164-Oh-the-ways-to-shatter-time/page2).

[BWR]

RAW - don't know, don't care
RAI - I can't imagine the designers intended for this sort of abuse to be legal.
My table (and the table of anyone I have played with): Hell no. No one we play with would be stupid/dickish enough to try this. I'd say no. If they tried to whine about how it's RAW legal, I'd say 'no' again. If they kept on whining I'd let them and then go all old school wish on them; it would not be pretty.

[Melcar]

I gather that there can be no final say in whether or not (Su) cost xp... I would assume that it doesnt, because that would lead to de-leveling the Zodar, which I find to be not happening. I totally see the problem with allowing this and where could eventually lead. Why stop at a +5 tome why not go the ring of "+20 to all rolls" or why stop there. Why not have the ring of all at will. What I do know is that there are more, albeit, gamebreaking tricks out there, and in an epic game it might not un-hindge that much...

Anyways I find it reasonably clear that when transforming into a Zodar you get a wish... every time. I have read and re-read shapechange and its the only conclusion I can come to. Whether or not it would cost xp are unclear though. And even more unclear is whether or not it should be allowed... I am personal undre the impression that it is well within the rules and like so many other things about spells it can be abused.

Taking this further.... Could one not simply gate in a Zodar and command it to wish you up the items you want??? I know that Gjins migh want to screw you over, but when you directly command the Zodar that part of the wish spell/ability would not be there.. would it? It would seem that that would be a risk free wish granting pretty much any item you can think of... Is this assumption correct?

[Vaz]

We just had this argument about 16 days ago. The arguments acting against you now are the same ones then, and they're listed right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361164-Oh-the-ways-to-shatter-time/page2).

Because i can't be bothered to continue the charade of polite argument, I walked away in the face of point blank refusal to see otherwise. There is no point arguing with a wall.

Time is independent of Environment, and you are yet to prove it isn't (and yes, the onus is on you to prove it, otherwise it is asking me to prove unicorns don't exist in real life). That is the cornerstone of your argument.

There is otherwise nothing which supports that you are able to change the demiplanes time trait - because, ironically enough, it doesn't say you can - so you can't.

It is otherwise similar to how people believe Linked Power allows XP free powers - it doesn't say so, so it must be true. Intentional misreading is a part of TO, but sorry, there is nothing which supports your pov, outside of your insistance that time is a part of the environment, but environment not actually mentioning time.

[Chronos]

OK, so all Genesis planes have 100:1 time, because you have no option to make it anything else. Nowhere does it say that the created plane is allowed to have the Normal Time trait.

And if a Zodar's Wish does cost XP, then getting it from Shapechange (or Gate) isn't particularly unbalancing. Those are all 9th-level spells, and the only reason people don't usually cast Wish directly from their 9th-level slots is the XP cost. Oh, I suppose it still lets you conserve spell slots to a degree, but since Wish is usually something you'd be doing during downtime, that's not too big a deal either.

One also needn't worry about de-leveling the zodar. NPCs (which non-Shapechange zodars always are) have as much XP as the DM says they do, and an NPC using a once-per-year ability is something that isn't going to happen without the DM planning for it.

[...]

1)
*I didn't put this in before the discussion about if Shapechange changes your identity. As far as I can tell, it doesn't, you retain your own mind. So Mialee is always Mialee. Changing her form doesn't change who she is, just what she is.

That said, you could put a house-rule in that makes the personality of the zodar intrude into yours, so you use the wish to balance fate every time, instead of giving you a bunch of stuff.

EDIT: or whatever a zodar normally uses its wishes for

[grarrrg]

Just popping in to point out that PF (more-or-less) covered this (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s4x) in a FAQ:

If I temporarily gain an ability that is limited in its uses per day, am I limited in my overall uses of that ability if I can temporarily gain it more than once?
Yes. You are limited by the ability in the same way as a character that has that ability permanently.

Just switch out "day" for "year".

[Psyren]

Just popping in to point out that PF (more-or-less) covered this (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s4x) in a FAQ:


Just switch out "day" for "year".

Indeed, PF handled this - but then again, PF also nerfed Shapechange to sanity :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Indeed, PF handled this - but then again, PF also nerfed Shapechange to sanity :smallbiggrin:

Quiet you! I'm winning here!
Most of them probably know next to nothing about PF other than "It's 3.75".

[Pan151]

The only place that I'm aware of where the issue of the cooldown of assumed spell-like-abilities is explained is in the Ur-Priest class, where you do indeed have to oblige to the cooldowns of any abilities you steal, even if you have multiple creatures to steal abilities from.

As such, I would rule that you have to wait out the cooldown of Wish, even if you turn into a Zodar a second time (or even if you turn into a different creature altogether that has Wish as an SLA). Of course, this is not RAW, as there exists no RAW (or RAI, for that matter. It's 100% DM call)

[Gemini476]

If we assume that Genesis defaults to he traits of the plain in which it was created for things that the caster is unable to change, it would inherit from the Ethereal Plane.



No Gravity.
Normal Time.
Infinite or Finite Size: The Ethereal Plane's size depends on which plane it is adjacent to.
Alterable Morphic: There is little on the plane to alter, however.
No Elemental or Energy Traits: Even if the coexistent plane has one or more of these traits, the Ethereal Plane does not.
Mildly Neutral-Aligned.
Normal magic: That is, spells function normally on the Ethereal Plane, though they do not cross into the Material Plane. It is possible to use a fireball spell against an enemy on the Ethereal Plane with the caster, but the same fireball wouldn't affect anyone on the corresponding part of the Material Plane. A bystander on the Material Plane can walk through an ethereal battlefield without feeling more than the hair on the back of his neck standing up.
The only exceptions are spells and spell-like abilities that use magical force (noted with the force descriptor, such as magic missile or wall of force) and abjurations that affect ethereal beings. Spellcasters on the Material Plane must have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course. While it's possible to hit ethereal enemies with a magic missile spell cast from the Material Plane, the reverse isn't possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.

So by default a Demiplane created by Genesis should have no gravity (notably different from what the Plane of Air and such have, this is pretty much 0G) and that's pretty much it as far as differences from the Material go.

Also, a fun fact that people might not be aware of: the Genesis spell has its 3E origins in the book Defender's of the Faith, and the Dieties and Demigods version specifically mentions it (and how it supersedes it). The Manual of the Planes, published later, even has a sentence that may reference it, in the chapter on Demiplanes:

Demiplanes are small, limited extradimensional spaces with their own unique rules. They are pieces of reality that don't seem to fit anywhere else. Accordingly, they can possess a great variety of traits.
Demiplanes can exist for any number of reasons. They may be created by arcane or divine spells. They may be generated at the desire of a powerful diety or other force. They may exist naturally, as a fold of existing reality that has been pinched off from the rest of the universe, or as a baby universe growing in power.
Demiplanes are typically coterminous to larger planes, but they have their own environments and their own planar traits. The creatures that call a demiplane home are often radically different from the natives of the larger plane attached to the demiplane.


----


More on topic, I would personally not allow shapechanging into a Zodar in my games. I would not allow Shapechange at all, in fact. Or Wish at all! Getting a single free wish means getting infinite free wishes because of how the magic item creation clause works.
But then again I'm the kind of person that would rather stick to E6 whilst actually playing the game and keep the full 20 levels to theorycrafting.

[Psyren]

You could argue a number of "base states" for Genesis:

- It inherits from the Ethereal Astral Plane because that's where you create it.
- It inherits from the Material Plane because that's the default.
- It inherits from the caster's home plane because that's what they're used to.
- There is no "inheritance" at all, and you have to manually specify all the traits during casting.

Which is one is "right" is more or less a DM call. It's not clear and we're not going to achieve any kind of consensus on it.

[Vorandril]

You could argue a number of "base states" for Genesis:

- It inherits from the Ethereal Astral Plane because that's where you create it.
- It inherits from the Material Plane because that's the default.
- It inherits from the caster's home plane because that's what they're used to.
- There is no "inheritance" at all, and you have to manually specify all the traits during casting.

Which is one is "right" is more or less a DM call. It's not clear and we're not going to achieve any kind of consensus on it.

Rule 0 for the win!

As for the Zodar thing the reason I would have an issue with it is also due to mentality of how the power is used.
Let's be honest, just look at the title of the thread. If that was the intent/mentality of the player I'd probably just tell them to leave my table. Abuse is abuse, regardless of the rules. RAI and Rule 0 trump RAW every day. And RAI/R0 exist to keep the game fun.

Though I do support the idea of the conversation for the sake of trying to figure out how it's 'supposed' to work. Because context for decisions is important.

[Bronk]

Though I do support the idea of the conversation for the sake of trying to figure out how it's 'supposed' to work. Because context for decisions is important.

That's why I like these threads... I like knowing what the real status quo is so I know if my houserule is even a houserule! Heck, there are still aspects of the wish spell itself that are easy for me to forget!

About Genesis: It would help if there is a rule somewhere that equated 'environment' with 'planar traits'.

Back to zodar abuse:

How about that doubled strength thing? Assuming the number '50' is just an example based on the base zodar's stats, and you boosted the strength, it might be a great way to wrestle dragons...

Invulnerable to all attacks except for bludgeoning? That could be useful...

Also, a possible snag in the zodar wish thing: If they're base 16HD, and they grant wishes as a sorcerer of their HD, and sorcerers only get ninth level spells at 18th level, and shapechange only changes you to the nonunique 16HD zodar... That might nix the whole deal.

[gooddragon1]

Hmm, well getting the wish from something like a gated efreeti would certainly not have XP costs I think the Su one is questionable. Maybe Tippy could weigh in on this better as he might have more experience with it.

[Chronos]

The Genesis spell must be cast on the Ethereal plane, while the Genesis psionic power must be manifested on the Astral. I'm not sure why the difference-- Astral would make more sense for both.

And a reference to spells creating demiplanes needn't necessarily be referring to Genesis-- As I understand it, Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, and the like also create demiplanes, albeit very small and temporary ones.

[Urpriest]

The only place that I'm aware of where the issue of the cooldown of assumed spell-like-abilities is explained is in the Ur-Priest class, where you do indeed have to oblige to the cooldowns of any abilities you steal, even if you have multiple creatures to steal abilities from.

As such, I would rule that you have to wait out the cooldown of Wish, even if you turn into a Zodar a second time (or even if you turn into a different creature altogether that has Wish as an SLA). Of course, this is not RAW, as there exists no RAW (or RAI, for that matter. It's 100% DM call)

See, I would argue that that provides evidence that the designers understood that in order for an ability that gives you spell-like abilities to be usable, it has to specify its interaction with usage limits. As such, Shapechange is clearly not intended to be usable.

The real rules for Shapechange are probably hidden in the designers' private collections, along with the real Tome of Battle errata.

[Melcar]

1) Can we agree that the wish ability of a Zodar is free of an xp cost?

2) Can we agree, that by gating in a Zodar, wishing for a magic item is a safe wish?

3) Can we agree that shapechanging into a Zodar again and again gives full use of its (Su) abilities each time?



Because i can't be bothered to continue the charade of polite argument, I walked away in the face of point blank refusal to see otherwise. There is no point arguing with a wall.

Time is independent of Environment, and you are yet to prove it isn't (and yes, the onus is on you to prove it, otherwise it is asking me to prove unicorns don't exist in real life). That is the cornerstone of your argument.

There is otherwise nothing which supports that you are able to change the demiplanes time trait - because, ironically enough, it doesn't say you can - so you can't.

It is otherwise similar to how people believe Linked Power allows XP free powers - it doesn't say so, so it must be true. Intentional misreading is a part of TO, but sorry, there is nothing which supports your pov, outside of your insistance that time is a part of the environment, but environment not actually mentioning time.

You cannot assume the game to state every possibility of a power or spell. Genesis does not list time as something you cant do, and since I would assume that the list of "no gos" to be more exhaustive than the list of "gos" I would personally believe that Time is something that the caster can change. Especially when there is mentioned no standard for the time.

When it comes to whether or not a (Su) ability is xp free, I would rule that when or if its free for the monster its free for the caster, that changes into the monster.

Yes thats would be Intentional misreading is a part of TO as you so put it, but nowhere in the game does it say you must apply the least generous ruling or assumption to a rule or ability.

In this situation it does not say that (Su) has components. But here we apply common sense, which to my would be. No - monsters using there (Su) cost no components - just like (SL). Therefor I would think and believe (without getting into whether or not I think its ok), that a caster transforming into a monster would neither need components using said ability.

[Vaz]

Fair enough

Fighters having 10 quadrillion standard actions and 40 bazingamillion swift in a turn, because it doesn't say I can't. Cheers.

All rules are the exception to how the world rotates. That is what the game is. If it doesn't say you can ignore what basic english says, then you do what basic english (or whatever language it is written in) says.

Genesis has no exception for time, so it diverts to regular [english] for what is allowed, and that is modification of the environment, which no where in [eng] is mentioned as including time.

In other words, yes I can state that I expect a spell to state every possibility possible, outside of specific mention otherwise.

[eggynack]

Because i can't be bothered to continue the charade of polite argument, I walked away in the face of point blank refusal to see otherwise. There is no point arguing with a wall.
It feels a lot like the exact opposite of that. I keep providing evidence of how these things are defined, and how the words in the spell fits those definitions, and you just keep saying, "Nope, not going to argue, it doesn't work." That's your prerogative to do, but you should really stop acting like you have a perfect claim to truth.


Time is independent of Environment, and you are yet to prove it isn't (and yes, the onus is on you to prove it, otherwise it is asking me to prove unicorns don't exist in real life). That is the cornerstone of your argument.
I gave pretty good evidence on that count, and you said just about nothing. Time fits what is apparently every relevant definition of environment. My arguments for that are right there in front of you.


There is otherwise nothing which supports that you are able to change the demiplanes time trait - because, ironically enough, it doesn't say you can - so you can't.
True. There is nothing aside from the thing that says you can that says you can.



Fair enough

Fighters having 10 quadrillion standard actions and 40 bazingamillion swift in a turn, because it doesn't say I can't. Cheers.
The rules say, "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action." So, there ya go. Additionally, it's not about the rules not saying I can't. It's about the rules saying that I absolutely can, and then not saying I can't do the thing it just said I can do.


All rules are the exception to how the world rotates. That is what the game is. If it doesn't say you can ignore what basic english says, then you do what basic english (or whatever language it is written in) says.

Genesis has no exception for time, so it diverts to regular [english] for what is allowed, and that is modification of the environment, which no where in [eng] is mentioned as including time.
The definition doesn't explicitly have to list time for time to be included. Time is an influence or condition, as it impacts the rate you would be able to do things relative to another plane with a different time trait, and time is absolutely an external factor surrounding a given organism at any point in time, because the flow of time is a factor in your surroundings and how they operate.

[Elderand]

True. There is nothing aside from the thing that says you can that says you can.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us ?

[Vaz]

You still haven't proved it though. Nothing in 'envrionment' states that time is part of the environment. Time influences the envrionment, as in the passage of time. But it is a constant and irrelevance to the environment. The environment exists independently of the pssage of time.

Otherwise, you could say that summer occurs because timmy gets spots. Correlation =/= causation, which is all,you have stated.

[eggynack]

You still haven't proved it though. Nothing in 'envrionment' states that time is part of the environment. Time influences the envrionment, as in the passage of time. But it is a constant and irrelevance to the environment. The environment exists independently of the pssage of time.
That doesn't appear true on the basis of any relevant definition of environment. It doesn't even look like you've really touched the definition, which is the core of the entire argument. Is time an influence or a condition? Yes. Thus it's part of the environment. Proved.


Otherwise, you could say that summer occurs because timmy gets spots. Correlation =/= causation, which is all,you have stated.
No, I couldn't, but I could say that Timmy gets spots because time exists, or even that Timmy gets spots within a certain period of time (say, one month on the prime material), because of the increased passage of time on some plane he's on. There doesn't even need to be a perfect causal relationship, as long as time is one causal factor, which it absolutely is. Time is a necessary condition for Timmy to get spots, though not a sufficient one. Really, you seem to be claiming fallacies that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I'm talking about.

[Vogonjeltz]

that example is very different from the zodar discussion

also, from the SRD


okay, so you're non-unique, which means you're no longer mialee, since mialee is a unique creature, no matter what form she is in. you are in the body of a zodar who didn't exist 6 seconds ago, and will cease existing once you change form again, you do however have the mind of mialee

you also gain all supernatural abilities of this zodar, obviously including the wish. Now, this zodar is completely non-unique, but a zodar who has used their wish differs from a normal zodar, doesn't it? and if that's true, then you must have your wish, to fulfill the "non-unique" part

This part is the operative section:
"assume the form of any single nonunique creature"

The form. It's still mialee every time, she's just in a different shape.

[Bronk]

1) Can we agree that the wish ability of a Zodar is free of an xp cost?

The more I look at it, the more it looks like the average Zodar can't even use its own wish ability in the first place.

I think that regularly worded supernatural abilities should be xp free though, based on the Dweomerkeeper wording.

[eggynack]

This part is the operative section:
"assume the form of any single nonunique creature"

The form. It's still mialee every time, she's just in a different shape.
However, it's not Mialee taking the form of Mialee the zodar. It's Mialee taking the form of some arbitrary Zodar, and that arbitrary form is what's granting the ability.

[Urpriest]

This part is the operative section:
"assume the form of any single nonunique creature"

The form. It's still mialee every time, she's just in a different shape.

"form" is something that gets a lot of argument, and has precisely no meaningful rules-definition. What comes with a form? If you take the form of a Beholder, do you count as a Beholder for PrC access?

These are all really basic things that the designers should arguably have realized would be issues, but which they appear to have had no interest in resolving. We can argue in circles around it, but really the only resolution is going to have to be a round of errata for a long-dead game. Or the aforementioned secret rules documents.

[Vogonjeltz]

"form" is something that gets a lot of argument, and has precisely no meaningful rules-definition. What comes with a form? If you take the form of a Beholder, do you count as a Beholder for PrC access?

These are all really basic things that the designers should arguably have realized would be issues, but which they appear to have had no interest in resolving. We can argue in circles around it, but really the only resolution is going to have to be a round of errata for a long-dead game. Or the aforementioned secret rules documents.

Great question. I suppose if it doesn't have any meaning, there's no rules reason mialee could become a zodar. If we don't have an understood meaning to the use of the word form of course.

I'm inclined to say form is indicative that it's only skin deep, she's still Mialee the wizard regardless of what her current form is (bunny, elf, or zodar).

*If zodar isn't a class the phrase "mialee the zodar" had no meaning at all.

[Vaz]

That doesn't appear true on the basis of any relevant definition of environment. It doesn't even look like you've really touched the definition, which is the core of the entire argument. Is time an influence or a condition? Yes. Thus it's part of the environment. Proved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_(biophysical)

Biotic and abiotic.

Can't create life or structure, so that leaves abiotic.

Soil.
Water.
Air Temperature.
Sunlight.

Funnily enough,

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

I'll be here, sipping victory tea, while you come up with yet another convoluted reason based on your own intentional misreading.

[eggynack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_(biophysical)

Biotic and abiotic.

Can't create life or structure, so that leaves abiotic.

Soil.
Water.
Air Temperature.
Sunlight.

Funnily enough,

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

I'll be here, sipping victory tea, while you come up with yet another convoluted reason based on your own intentional misreading.
You drink victory tea very easily, and with little justification. Time isn't included in the study of ecology because it's pretty much a static factor in our world. At the same time though, if you skip past the examples, and just read the definition on that very page, "Abiotic components include physical conditions and non-living resources that affect living organisms in terms of growth, maintenance, and reproduction." If you haven't noticed, that definition suits time exactly. Consider further the fact that there are still two definitions of environment that could apply, and you haven't even touched the first.

[Somensjev]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_(biophysical)

Biotic and abiotic.

Can't create life or structure, so that leaves abiotic.

Soil.
Water.
Air Temperature.
Sunlight.

Funnily enough,

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

I'll be here, sipping victory tea, while you come up with yet another convoluted reason based on your own intentional misreading.

well, actually

The biophysical environment is the biotic and abiotic surrounding of an organism or population, and includes the factors that have an influence in their survival, development and evolution

i believe that technically that environment is a different definition than what the spell is talking about, mostly because of the underlined part
when you create the plane you don't have to take into consideration any organisms or populations for the environment, since there are none on the plane when it's created, so i don't believe that a biophysical environment is the kind we're looking for


as opposed to something simpler like

the circumstances, objects, or conditions by which one is surrounded
the complex of physical, chemical, and biotic factors (as climate, soil, and living things) that act upon an organism or an ecological community and ultimately determine its form and survival
the aggregate of social and cultural conditions that influence the life of an individual or community
the position or characteristic position of a linguistic element in a sequence

which is taken from merriam webster (quote didn't work)

the biophysical environment seems to mostly be #2

whereas the more common (and possibly accepted) reading, which allows time, is #1, since time can easily be included in circumstances, objects, or conditions. and that definition isn't centered around living things (which the created plane has no native examples of), so it's a much more likely option


hand me some victory tea please, before i'm proved wrong

edit: ninja'd by eggy while i was researching

[eggynack]

hand me some victory tea please, before i'm proved wrong

edit: ninja'd by eggy while i was researching
Nah, they seem to be different arguments, mine rooted in the idea that time can fit the ecological definition, and yours in the idea that it can't be used. Thus, shared victory tea.

[Somensjev]

Nah, they seem to be different arguments, mine rooted in the idea that time can fit the ecological definition, and yours in the idea that it can't be used. Thus, shared victory tea.

victory tea for all on our side :smallwink:

[Vaz]

None of which fits into the list of what is expressly allowed.

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)."

There is a black list of what isn't allowed - structure and life - and a white list of what is. Anything else is grey matter, and subject to DM approval for such, not to mention the only 3.0 content version of Genesis, as it was not included within the 3.5 update to the ELH.

You continue to cite that time is a part of the environment, and aside from it tenuously fitting a definition (if you squint), doesn't actually feature anywhere within the definitions of such, neither can you cite anything that says it is.

It's like saying "size" is a measure of the environment, or "opaqueness" is. It is an abstract, that is not part of the environment.

The spell makes note of you create a demiplane.

Demiplanes have the following;

Physical, Elemental and Energy, Alignment and Magic Traits.

It does not say you can change any of them - inherently being "normal".

Time is not part of the environment, it is a natural law. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

"The two most important natural laws set by physical traits are how gravity works and how time passes. Other physical traits pertain to the size and shape of a plane and how easily a plane’s nature can be altered."

Please, tell me where I'm wrong here. If you want a defined answer, then the in-game parsing does not consider time to be a part of the environment - outside of that, your argument boils down to "it doesn't say I can't", leaving your opinion that time is part of the environment (despite nothing actually saying so).

[eggynack]

None of which fits into the list of what is expressly allowed.

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)."

There is a black list of what isn't allowed - structure and life - and a white list of what is. Anything else is grey matter, and subject to DM approval for such, not to mention the only 3.0 content version of Genesis, as it was not included within the 3.5 update to the ELH.
There is indeed a black list of what isn't allowed, and a white list of what is, but included on that white list is anything that's part of the environment, and not specifically disallowed.


You continue to cite that time is a part of the environment, and aside from it tenuously fitting a definition (if you squint), doesn't actually feature anywhere within the definitions of such, neither can you cite anything that says it is.
The definition need not explicitly list a specific thing for that thing to fit the definition. Let us use an example. Ravens are black, by definition. However, ravens aren't included in the definition of black, despite the fact that they clearly are that. As for the tenuousness of how this fits the definition, that's the thing you need to justify.


It's like saying "size" is a measure of the environment, or "opaqueness" is. It is an abstract, that is not part of the environment.
Those are indeed parts of the environment, as long as they fit the definitions. If you have some organisms sitting on a tiny island, they're going to be affected by that size in a way different than how they would be on a larger landmass.


Demiplanes have the following;

Physical, Elemental and Energy, Alignment and Magic Traits.

It does not say you can change any of them - inherently being "normal".
I don't really see what's stopping you from changing those things either. The spell doesn't say that you need to create a demiplane with those things in a normal way, after all.


Time is not part of the environment, it is a natural law. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

It can be both.


Please, tell me where I'm wrong here. If you want a defined answer, then the in-game parsing does not consider time to be a part of the environment - outside of that, your argument boils down to "it doesn't say I can't", leaving your opinion that time is part of the environment (despite nothing actually saying so).
Pretty much the ways I've listed above. This all pretty much entirely comes down to the definition of environment. Also, you haven't really countered chaotic stupid's argument, so there's that way that you're wrong also.

[MrNobody]

Correction: You would not get another one as Shapechange does not let you turn into specific creatures. If Mialee the Wizard casts Shapechange, she turns into Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to an elf and to a zodar again, she's again Mialee the Zodar, and Mialee the Zodar has used her one Wish. She can't turn into Bob the Zodar one time, and then Frank the Zodar the next, because she can't turn into specific creatures.

That said, though, by the time you get to the optimization level where you're shapechanging into a zodar, it's not hard to turn one Wish into multiples: Wish for a Candle of Invocation, then call an efreet, for instance.

This, definitely! It's the same interpretation of the rules i used while playing a shapechanger.
My thought was that the spell is "SHAPE-change": it changes your shape (giving you some additional abilities of the creature), not your inner self.
You could morph in a Zodar 1000 times a day, but that wouldn't give you more uses of wish, because it's always you: maybe you take the form of many different generic Zodars (weird statement, don't you think?) but you are always you, and in your Zodar-shape you can use only a wish a year.

[Somensjev]

This, definitely! It's the same interpretation of the rules i used while playing a shapechanger.
My thought was that the spell is "SHAPE-change": it changes your shape (giving you some additional abilities of the creature), not your inner self.
You could morph in a Zodar 1000 times a day, but that wouldn't give you more uses of wish, because it's always you: maybe you take the form of many different generic Zodars (weird statement, don't you think?) but you are always you, and in your Zodar-shape you can use only a wish a year.

ah, but therein lies the issue, you become a non-unique zodar, but, a zodar that has used it's wish ability is different for a generic zodar, and thus "unique", this would imply that to be a non-unique zodar, all of your abilities would have to be usable (which is the default of the abilities)

at least, that is my interpretation

[thethird]

On the Zodar thing, free wishes for everyone, I just ask my players not to do it, if it would break the game, or do it for everyone else if the others don't have the capabilities to pull it (i.e. everyone has +5 or no one does).


It's like saying "size" is a measure of the environment

bonsai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai)

Size can very well define the environment and be a limiting decisive factor. Size can also be set with the spell, casting genesis gives one size of demiplane, recasting it again makes it larger.

Also, a good houserule you might want to implement is adopting the psionic genesis, which clearly states:


You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.

That is a rather exhaustive NO, the lack of such language in the arcane, added to the reasons pointed out by eggy (and others) lead me to believe that yes, you can manipulate time in the arcane version.

Of course as with the zodar thing, I ask the people around me not to do it unless the power level of the campaign is at that level.

[Melcar]

A quick responce to the Genesis spell. I havent found any indication that any plane follows a set standard, so each time a new plane is created, by what ever, time has to be defined by the creator. At least that's what makes sense to me. Sinse time is mentioned no where in the spell are we to assume that time is simple not running in a genesis created plane? The spell is obviously badly worded, like so many other things and as well put "filled with grey areas". Personally I find it more reasonably that time can be defined by the caster then simply saying it follows the standart time trait. Which by the way does not indicate what that standard is. One could ague for the time trait of the matirial plane or the etherial/ astral. On a side note, Im no professor in physics, but im pretty sure that time is not a constant but determined by gravity and speed, therefor time would be changing acording to landmass and size of the plane which we (im guessing) knows very little about....

Back to the Zodar... Whether or not ist Mialee the Zodar, each time you shapechange you shapechange into the version in MM or what ever souce the monster come from (Whithout the stated particulars of the spell) each time. SO having a Shapechange spell that at one change gave you 5 uses of an ability, then 4 then 3, that would indicate that a particular monster was changed into. Therefor I would think that a new, fresh unsused, mint, prestine creature with unused abilities is assumed every time. IMO.

[Somensjev]

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)."

There is a black list of what isn't allowed - structure and life - and a white list of what is. Anything else is grey matter, and subject to DM approval for such, not to mention the only 3.0 content version of Genesis, as it was not included within the 3.5 update to the ELH.

You continue to cite that time is a part of the environment, and aside from it tenuously fitting a definition (if you squint), doesn't actually feature anywhere within the definitions of such, neither can you cite anything that says it is.

It's like saying "size" is a measure of the environment, or "opaqueness" is. It is an abstract, that is not part of the environment.

The spell makes note of you create a demiplane.

Demiplanes have the following;

Physical, Elemental and Energy, Alignment and Magic Traits.

It does not say you can change any of them - inherently being "normal".

Time is not part of the environment, it is a natural law. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

"The two most important natural laws set by physical traits are how gravity works and how time passes. Other physical traits pertain to the size and shape of a plane and how easily a plane’s nature can be altered."

Please, tell me where I'm wrong here. If you want a defined answer, then the in-game parsing does not consider time to be a part of the environment - outside of that, your argument boils down to "it doesn't say I can't", leaving your opinion that time is part of the environment (despite nothing actually saying so).

please note: such as = similar to, or like
it gives you a definitive list of things you can't do
and four examples of things you can do, while also telling you that you can do anything similar to these (which i would include time as similar)

there is no game definition of environment
time perfectly fits into any applicable english definition that would suit this discussion, yes, even the one you were using





Also, a good houserule you might want to implement is adopting the psionic genesis, which clearly states:
That is a rather exhaustive NO, the lack of such language in the arcane, added to the reasons pointed out by eggy (and others) lead me to believe that yes, you can manipulate time in the arcane version.

i vaguely remembered this, but i didn't have time to find it, thanks

note: why would the psionic version specifically call out time as not changing, while the arcane version has no such line? does this mean that the arcane version can change time, since it lacks the only thing apparently stopping the psionic version from doing the same?
because i believe that's basically the crux of my argument



i'd like another cup of victory tea please

[Erik Vale]

*Reads most then skips*

Just weighing in on the Planar Binding/Ally question.

Assuming it fails it's will save and get's bound, there's a non-0 chance that the Zodar summoned has used it's with, leaving it to GM territory.
However, Zodar's theoretically are infinite and rarely use their wish, so if the GM says no, it's because of balance reasons. Also note, doing this would be a level 8, 3 and [I think] 5 spell, so while earlier access, it costs more than a level 9 slots excluding by the versatile caster definition.

[Segev]

1) Can we agree that the wish ability of a Zodar is free of an xp cost?(Su) abilities are, so yes.


2) Can we agree, that by gating in a Zodar, wishing for a magic item is a safe wish?Unfortunately, yes. This is a broken bit (though honestly, this isn't any more broken than the Candle of Invocation + Efreet trick).


3) Can we agree that shapechanging into a Zodar again and again gives full use of its (Su) abilities each time?No. You turn into a generic Zodar, not a "non-unique" Zodar. A generic Zodar can still be a unique Zodar.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 1000 Zodar in existence. Let's say that a "generic" Zodar is any of a majority of them that are indistinguishable, statistically, because they don't have any special abilities. If you use Gate to summon a Zodar with no special properties, you summon a generic Zodar through your Gate. If you do so again tomorrow, you have a 1/1000 (at worst) chance of summoning the same Zodar as yesterday, because that Zodar from yesterday is no less generic than he was yesterday. And yet, if you had him use his Wish yesterday, he's still out of Wishes for the year.

Similarly, just because you turn into a generic Zodar doesn't mean that you turn into a "new" or "different" Zodar every time. In fact, you cannot differentiate between the Zodar you were last time and the Zodar you'll become next time. Not in any meaningful, mechanical sense. If you could, it wouldn't be a generic Zodar. Therefore, when you become a Zodar, you check to see if this particular Zodar - who is you - has used his Zodar (Su) Wish in the last year. If you have, then you don't have it available. It doesn't matter how many times you've stopped being a Zodar and started being one again; you still used a Zodar (Su) Wish within the last year, which makes you a (generic) Zodar who has used his racial ability within the last year, and thus it is unavailable.

[Somensjev]

No. You turn into a generic Zodar, not a "non-unique" Zodar. A generic Zodar can still be a unique Zodar.

excuse me? :smallconfused:



This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single non-unique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size

yeah..

[Pan151]

excuse me? :smallconfused:



yeah..

You get the form of a non-unique creature (You can't shapechange into the form of Vecna, or the form of Bob-the-Troll-that-lives-3-miles-southwest-of-Townsville). You, however, are still a unique creature, no matter what form you choose to take. If you change into the form of a Zodar, and then again into a different form of a Zodar, you're still the same creature.

[eggynack]

You get the form of a non-unique creature. You, however, are still a unique creature, no matter what form you choose to take.
Sure, but the form is the thing with the wish, and the form is necessarily not, "Zodar with wish spent," because that would be a unique creature.

[Vogonjeltz]

Sure, but the form is the thing with the wish, and the form is necessarily not, "Zodar with wish spent," because that would be a unique creature.

The abilities are the casters, you aren't turning into someone else, ever. If Mialee used her zodar form wish, she doesn't get another zodar form wish until 1 year has passed.

[Segev]

Sure, but the form is the thing with the wish, and the form is necessarily not, "Zodar with wish spent," because that would be a unique creature.

If "Zodar with wish spent" is a unique creature, so is "Zodar without wish spent."

I will concede on the "non-unique" aspect. However, that doesn't invalidate the rest of my argument, as it turns out. You are still "a non-unique Zodar who has used his racial (Su) Wish within the last year."

The form doesn't "contain" a wish; it lets you use a wish as a (Su) once per year.

[Melcar]

(Su) abilities are, so yes.

Unfortunately, yes. This is a broken bit (though honestly, this isn't any more broken than the Candle of Invocation + Efreet trick).

No. You turn into a generic Zodar, not a "non-unique" Zodar. A generic Zodar can still be a unique Zodar.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 1000 Zodar in existence. Let's say that a "generic" Zodar is any of a majority of them that are indistinguishable, statistically, because they don't have any special abilities. If you use Gate to summon a Zodar with no special properties, you summon a generic Zodar through your Gate. If you do so again tomorrow, you have a 1/1000 (at worst) chance of summoning the same Zodar as yesterday, because that Zodar from yesterday is no less generic than he was yesterday. And yet, if you had him use his Wish yesterday, he's still out of Wishes for the year.

Similarly, just because you turn into a generic Zodar doesn't mean that you turn into a "new" or "different" Zodar every time. In fact, you cannot differentiate between the Zodar you were last time and the Zodar you'll become next time. Not in any meaningful, mechanical sense. If you could, it wouldn't be a generic Zodar. Therefore, when you become a Zodar, you check to see if this particular Zodar - who is you - has used his Zodar (Su) Wish in the last year. If you have, then you don't have it available. It doesn't matter how many times you've stopped being a Zodar and started being one again; you still used a Zodar (Su) Wish within the last year, which makes you a (generic) Zodar who has used his racial ability within the last year, and thus it is unavailable.

You dont become someone else (possessing) the soul/body of another being with experience and meaning. If that was the case, and this particular Zodar had lost its leg or used its wish, does not do so that you inherent this particular set of factors. You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form so look up the particular creature in what ever souce it comes from. If it says: (Su) Wish( 1/year) Thats what you can do. If you believe that particular Zodar to be different from the one stated in Fiend Folio, then that would be a unique or particular creature - with a seperate line of experiece from the base creature, whose write-up you use to determine what and what not you gain from shapechange. ANd that is not possible with shapechange. If it were I would want to change into a Zodar who had used it wish to have fused with an ice-assassin of an Aleax of my character - which is not possible. Therefor it must be, that when ever you gain the form of a Zodar, you gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the Zodar.

[Segev]

Therefor it must be, that when ever you gain the form of a Zodar, you gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the Zodar.

I'm not disagreeing with that. A Zodar has the (Su) ability to use a Wish once per year. You turn into a Zodar. If you have not used your racial ability to (Su) Wish yet this year, you can use Wish as a (Su). If you have used your racial Zodar ablity to (Su) Wish already this year, then you've already used 1 Zodar Wish this year. You check your Zodar racial ability, which says you can do so 1/year. Since you've already used 1 (Su) Wish this year, you don't have another to use until next year.

Zodar's racial ability lets you do something up to 1/year. It doesn't matter what forms you assume in the interim, after you've made a Wish against the Zodar's yearly alotment, you've used 1 wish against the Zodar's yearly alotment. As long as you're a Zodar, you've used 1 of 1 Wishes. If you turn into something else, you've used 1 of 0 allowed Wishes, but that's okay, because you did get your one Wish. Turn back into a Zodar, and you're still at 1 of 1 allowed Wishes, which means you can't make another one (at least, not against the Zodar racial ability), because that would put you at 2 of 1 allowed Wishes for the year.


You're much better off Gating or Planar Binding/Allying Zodars in; then you have a very good chance of getting a new one each time.

[eggynack]

The abilities are the casters, you aren't turning into someone else, ever. If Mialee used her zodar form wish, she doesn't get another zodar form wish until 1 year has passed.
Indeed, you are not fundamentally turning into another being. In that case, why should Mialee's nature, rather than that of the standard zodar statblock she's making use of, determine how the wishing works. If Mialee just were the zodar, and we were just talking the whole time about Mialee the zodar, then she likely would just get the one wish. It's the fact that she is not actually that zodar, and the fact that the ability effectively has an external source rather than an internal one, that allows for multiple wishes.

I'm not disagreeing with that. A Zodar has the (Su) ability to use a Wish once per year. You turn into a Zodar. If you have not used your racial ability to (Su) Wish yet this year, you can use Wish as a (Su). If you have used your racial Zodar ablity to (Su) Wish already this year, then you've already used 1 Zodar Wish this year. You check your Zodar racial ability, which says you can do so 1/year. Since you've already used 1 (Su) Wish this year, you don't have another to use until next year.
But, unless things have gone in an odd direction, our noble character doesn't have a racial ability to use wish once a year. The form does. And the form cannot take its attributes from whatever you were doing last time, because that would imply that you were actually a unique zodar the first time.

[Pan151]

Indeed, you are not fundamentally turning into another being. In that case, why should Mialee's nature, rather than that of the standard zodar statblock she's making use of, determine how the wishing works. If Mialee just were the zodar, and we were just talking the whole time about Mialee the zodar, then she likely would just get the one wish. It's the fact that she is not actually that zodar, and the fact that the ability effectively has an external source rather than an internal one, that allows for multiple wishes.

But, unless things have gone in an odd direction, our noble character doesn't have a racial ability to use wish once a year. The form does. And the form cannot take its attributes from whatever you were doing last time, because that would imply that you were actually a unique zodar the first time.

Mialee is always Mialee. If she shapechanges to a Zodar, then to a Beholder, then to a cat, then to a Zodar again and then turns back to an elf, she remains the same exact creature all the while - it's just her form that changes, just like a Druid can turn into the form of a bear or a doppelganger can turn into the form of a gnome. She is Shapechanging, not True Mind Switching...

[Segev]

But, unless things have gone in an odd direction, our noble character doesn't have a racial ability to use wish once a year. The form does. And the form cannot take its attributes from whatever you were doing last time, because that would imply that you were actually a unique zodar the first time.

You're going to have to provide some citations to indicate that "the form" is a stand-alone thing that has meaning separate from "you-in-that-form."

Were we discussing summoned/called creatures, you'd have a case. But you are shapeshifting. You're still you. You're not replaced by a new, different Zodar. You are you, taking the form (and abilities) of a Zodar. The Zodar-form is non-unique, in that it is not mechanically differentiable from any other Zodar (except, of course, where the spell says it is; you don't gain more (Su) abilities than the spell and your feats say you do, for instance, and you're still using your hp base). But you're still you-the-generic-Zodar.



Heck, I could argue it from another angle, too: "non-unique" is very clearly intended to mean that you cannot use these effects to become specific gods, singular creatures such as the Tarrasque or a Demon Prince, or to gain the appearance of a specific individual. It also means you can't "customize" your form: you get what the MM entry gives you (when filtered through the spell's alterations). Earlier editions went so far as to label "unique" creatures; I think 3e failed to do that, leading to room to argue RAW/RAI here. So this may not be the best place to go, especially as RAW can fall into a semantic debate over how you interpret the meanings of the words.


I still stand by my point that you're not turning into a "fresh" Zodar each time. You're turning into a Zodar that is mechanically indistinguishable from a Zodar you stumble across in a random encounter. It is generally assumed that a randomly-encountered creature has all of its within-certain-time abilities available to it, but that is not RAW. That is a pure DM call. It would be quite reasonable, particularly with an ability that is usable only once per YEAR, to assume they've already used it this year. It wouldn't make them objectively overall differentiable from those who hadn't yet used it on a broad scale.

Otherwise, you can take the argument to mean that, since you cannot be a unique creature, and a Zodar that has used its wish is mechanically differentiable from one that has not, you cannot use any of the Zodar's use-per-time-period abilities at all, because that would render you a unique Zodar.

This is a patently silly argument.

It is much more consistent to state that you gain a maximum number of uses of Zodar-granted abilities based on generic Zodar stats. You track your uses of these abilities in the time periods specified. If you stop being a Zodar, you still have your track record of used Zodar abilities. You've just exceeded your uses-per-period, and so can't use any more. If you turn back into a Zodar, your record again doesn't change, but if your Zodar-granted uses-per-period is again greater than your number of uses in that period, you can use the ability again until your count exceeds the allowed uses-per-period.

[Segev]

But, unless things have gone in an odd direction, our noble character doesn't have a racial ability to use wish once a year.

Put another way: Yes, actually, our noble character does gain the racial ability to use Wish once per year...when he assumes Zodar form. But he's still the one who has or has not used Wish yet this year.

[Svata]

On Genesis- my argument is "why would the Psionic version seethe need to specifically disallow it if it wasn't allowed in the Arcane version?"

[Psyren]

On Genesis- my argument is "why would the Psionic version seethe need to specifically disallow it if it wasn't allowed in the Arcane version?"

You could argue the answer is "because Bruce Cordell had the sense to realize how broken it was, but WotC is lousy at revisiting errata."

[Vaz]

On Genesis- my argument is "why would the Psionic version seethe need to specifically disallow it if it wasn't allowed in the Arcane version?"

Clarification. Why would they feel the need to update the arcane version when there was technically no 3.5 version? The same with the Tome of Magic's version.

[BWR]

Clarification. Why would they feel the need to update the arcane version when there was technically no 3.5 version? The same with the Tome of Magic's version.

Just because something is obviously wrong, even broken, and the company knows about it, doesn't mean they'll actually do something about it.

[Melcar]

I still stand by my point that you're not turning into a "fresh" Zodar each time. You're turning into a Zodar that is mechanically indistinguishable from a Zodar you stumble across in a random encounter. It is generally assumed that a randomly-encountered creature has all of its within-certain-time abilities available to it, but that is not RAW. That is a pure DM call. It would be quite reasonable, particularly with an ability that is usable only once per YEAR, to assume they've already used it this year. It wouldn't make them objectively overall differentiable from those who hadn't yet used it on a broad scale.


How crappy would it be if you turned into some creature who had expended all its abilities for the day. If thats possible then surely its possible to turn into a fresh one, who has not used its abilities thus giving Wish every time. BTW the fluff text of a Zoda says that the very seldom use their wish...

[Pan151]

How crappy would it be if you turned into some creature who had expended all its abilities for the day. If thats possible then surely its possible to turn into a fresh one, who has not used its abilities thus giving Wish every time. BTW the fluff text of a Zoda says that the very seldom use their wish...

Thing is, you can do neither of these two things. You don't actually turn into a different creature - you assume the form of a creature different than the one you currently are.

What you suggest would happen if you tranfered your soul from the body of one Zodar into the body of a different Zodar, while what the spell actually does is change your body's form into a different Zodar. You're still the same exact creature, which is exactly why you retain your real health and most of the rest of your base stats.

[torrasque666]

I'm just going to weigh in on the genesis argument with this: It was never intended to be used by PCs, but by the DM as a reward, much like a keep or a stronghold is. Yes, the PCs can go out of their way to get one, but it wasn't intended in that way.



I could have sworn I remember seeing that it was intended to be used as a reward by the DM somewhere...because, ya know, it was originally Epic Level Magic.

[BWR]

I'm just going to weigh in on the genesis argument with this: It was never intended to be used by PCs, but by the DM as a reward, much like a keep or a stronghold is. Yes, the PCs can go out of their way to get one, but it wasn't intended in that way.



I could have sworn I remember seeing that it was intended to be used as a reward by the DM somewhere...because, ya know, it was originally Epic Level Magic.


I'm pretty sure it first showed up in 2e as 'Demiplane Seed', an 8th level spell that allowed you to create demiplanes. No hard limits except that no environmental effects could be more powerful than a 3rd level spell and everything had to be OKed by the DM. A couple of useful elements that should have been kept in the conversion to 3.x

[Segev]

How crappy would it be if you turned into some creature who had expended all its abilities for the day. If thats possible then surely its possible to turn into a fresh one, who has not used its abilities thus giving Wish every time. BTW the fluff text of a Zoda says that the very seldom use their wish...

That's the point. You turn into a creature. You gain its ability to use [ability] X/day. You use it X-3 times, then turn into something else. You now have used [ability] X-3 times today, but have a maximum of 0 times per day you can use it. Therefore, you can't use it anymore. You turn back into the first creature. You have used [ability] X-3 times today, but this creature's limit is X times, so you can use it up to 3 more times, now.

You don't turn into a creature that has "randomly" used all of its uses of an ability. You turn into a creature, and you compare how many times you've used the ability that day to the maximum number of times per day you can, as that creature, use said ability. If you have more allowed uses/day than you have already used that day, you can use it. If you don't, you can't.


So, you turn into a Zodar. You've never been a Zodar before, so you definitely have not used the Zodar's Wish (Su). You use it! Yay! Overpowered free-exp Wish of awesomeness! You have now used the Wish (Su) once this year so far. The Zodar has a maximum of 1 of its Wishes per year. You therefore cannot use it again.

Next, you turn back into yourself. If you want to run the audit, you'll find that you have used the Zodar's (Su) Wish once this year. You have, now that you're not a Zodar, 0 of these wishes per year. Because you have used more of these wishes than your maximum this year, you can't make another one. No big surprise, here; you didn't expect to use a Zodar's (Su) Wish ability while in your own form, anyway.

Now, you turn back into a Zodar! You again have up to 1 (Su) Wish you can make per year granted by virtue of being a Zodar. You check how many Wishes you've made this year through that allowance, and find that you've made 1 (Su) Wish. Since you've used the maximum number of Zodar Wishes you're allowed in this year, you can't make another one.

[Melcar]

That's the point. You turn into a creature. You gain its ability to use [ability] X/day. You use it X-3 times, then turn into something else. You now have used [ability] X-3 times today, but have a maximum of 0 times per day you can use it. Therefore, you can't use it anymore. You turn back into the first creature. You have used [ability] X-3 times today, but this creature's limit is X times, so you can use it up to 3 more times, now.

You don't turn into a creature that has "randomly" used all of its uses of an ability. You turn into a creature, and you compare how many times you've used the ability that day to the maximum number of times per day you can, as that creature, use said ability. If you have more allowed uses/day than you have already used that day, you can use it. If you don't, you can't.


So, you turn into a Zodar. You've never been a Zodar before, so you definitely have not used the Zodar's Wish (Su). You use it! Yay! Overpowered free-exp Wish of awesomeness! You have now used the Wish (Su) once this year so far. The Zodar has a maximum of 1 of its Wishes per year. You therefore cannot use it again.

Next, you turn back into yourself. If you want to run the audit, you'll find that you have used the Zodar's (Su) Wish once this year. You have, now that you're not a Zodar, 0 of these wishes per year. Because you have used more of these wishes than your maximum this year, you can't make another one. No big surprise, here; you didn't expect to use a Zodar's (Su) Wish ability while in your own form, anyway.

Now, you turn back into a Zodar! You again have up to 1 (Su) Wish you can make per year granted by virtue of being a Zodar. You check how many Wishes you've made this year through that allowance, and find that you've made 1 (Su) Wish. Since you've used the maximum number of Zodar Wishes you're allowed in this year, you can't make another one.

Well that to me would assume you change into the same Zodar as before. I personally find that (when I read the spell shapechange) impossible. Is I have previously mentioned. If a form comes with experience in any form eg. a lost leg, a used (Su) ability... etc. that would mean that you somehow assume the form of not a generic zodar but a particular zodar. I do not read the spell like that. Personally, I read and understand the spell as taking the form (and thus powers, within spell limit) of a generic zodar, thus having all its powers... every time... as if it was the first time someone changed into the creature.

I totally agree that this would be all but game breaking, and should probably not be allowed. But I still believe that thats the way the spell works. If somehow the abilietes gained from changing form multiple times changed, it would make sense for that clause to be written into the spell. That however is no where there. You simple just gains the abilities of the creature... every time. IMO

[Gemini476]

I'm just going to weigh in on the genesis argument with this: It was never intended to be used by PCs, but by the DM as a reward, much like a keep or a stronghold is. Yes, the PCs can go out of their way to get one, but it wasn't intended in that way.



I could have sworn I remember seeing that it was intended to be used as a reward by the DM somewhere...because, ya know, it was originally Epic Level Magic.

Correction: it was originally the capstone of the Creation domain introduced in Defenders of the Faith.

Also, aren't "unique" creatures supposed to be ones like Archdevils and Gods who have their very own statblock rather than sharing it with anything else and whatnot? I think I remember some arguments to that effect, mostly regarding Gate, but it might just be one of those unwritten rules that WotC never really clarified.

[Renen]

I am of the opinion that you have to wait a year. You don't turn into a specific Zodar, but if you are saying you are turning into a Zodar, who is to say that the Zodar hasn't used its wish.

More practically, you are a creature. "Zodar" refers to the creature. You are the Zodar. "Has this creature, which is a Zodar, made a Su Wish in the last year?''

The way I see it is like this:
Lets say we have Bob.
Bob transforms into a zodar.
He is now "Generic Zodar 1"
Generic zodar 1 has an ability wish: 1 per year.
Bob casts wish.
Then Bob transforms into "Generic Zodar 2"
Generic zodar 2 has an ability wish: 1 per year.
Bob casts wish.

Repeat to infinity.
So you transform into creature that has ability X.
Just because you previously transformed into creature Y (that just happens to be the same species) doesnt matter. You have a "new" body. With "new" abilities, which have full charges.

Does it break game? DUH!
But its RAW legal :D

[Renen]

None of which fits into the list of what is expressly allowed.

"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)."

There is a black list of what isn't allowed - structure and life - and a white list of what is. Anything else is grey matter, and subject to DM approval for such, not to mention the only 3.0 content version of Genesis, as it was not included within the 3.5 update to the ELH.

You continue to cite that time is a part of the environment, and aside from it tenuously fitting a definition (if you squint), doesn't actually feature anywhere within the definitions of such, neither can you cite anything that says it is.

It's like saying "size" is a measure of the environment, or "opaqueness" is. It is an abstract, that is not part of the environment.

The spell makes note of you create a demiplane.

Demiplanes have the following;

Physical, Elemental and Energy, Alignment and Magic Traits.

It does not say you can change any of them - inherently being "normal".

Time is not part of the environment, it is a natural law. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

"The two most important natural laws set by physical traits are how gravity works and how time passes. Other physical traits pertain to the size and shape of a plane and how easily a plane’s nature can be altered."

Please, tell me where I'm wrong here. If you want a defined answer, then the in-game parsing does not consider time to be a part of the environment - outside of that, your argument boils down to "it doesn't say I can't", leaving your opinion that time is part of the environment (despite nothing actually saying so).

Googling definition of enviroment:
the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plant lives or operates.

I would say "time flows super fast" or the "time is erratic through the plane" falls under conditions. And the general wording says you can determine enviroment. Unless a specific wording contradicts, then it should totally include time. For example the psionuc version DOES include wording against time.

[Segev]

Well that to me would assume you change into the same Zodar as before. I personally find that (when I read the spell shapechange) impossible.Whether you turn into "the same" Zodar as before is irrelevant. Possibly even meaningless. You don't turn into a different being. You are still yourself. You just happen to be a Zodar at the moment.


Is I have previously mentioned. If a form comes with experience in any form eg. a lost leg, a used (Su) ability... etc. that would mean that you somehow assume the form of not a generic zodar but a particular zodar. I do not read the spell like that. Personally, I read and understand the spell as taking the form (and thus powers, within spell limit) of a generic zodar, thus having all its powers... every time... as if it was the first time someone changed into the creature.Then you can't turn into anything. Because whatever you turn into has the specific experience of being you.

Unless you're going to claim that you're not there at all, but are replaced entirely by a different entity. It has none of your class features, none of your feats, none of your skills, none of your stats. It has none of your memories nor will.

But that's not what the spell says it does. It says you change your shape and gain the powers of that shape. That shape is still you.


I totally agree that this would be all but game breaking, and should probably not be allowed.It would, and it shouldn't.
But I still believe that thats the way the spell works.You're incorrect.


If somehow the abilietes gained from changing form multiple times changed, it would make sense for that clause to be written into the spell. That however is no where there. You simple just gains the abilities of the creature... every time. IMOThe abilities don't change. When you become, say, a dragon, you gain the ability to breathe a breath weapon once every 1d4+1 rounds. Let's say you're using Shapechange, and you choose to breathe and come up with 5 rounds you have to wait, then turn into a choker for two actions in the next round, then change back to a dragon. You're still a dragon that used its breath weapon 2 rounds ago and which must now wait 3 more rounds before it can breathe its breath weapon again.

Because your ability HAS NOT changed. Your ability is to use your breath weapon once every 1d4+1 rounds. You rolled maximum, so you have to wait 5 rounds since you last used it before you can use it again. You're NOT becoming "a new" dragon. You're becoming "a" dragon which happens to be you. And you have 3 more rounds until you can use your breath weapon again. If you're not a dragon in 3 rounds, you can't use your breath weapon because you're not a dragon and thus lack the breath weapon (Su), but if you became one again after that, you could, because you are not on breath cooldown timer anymore.

Similarly, the Zodar's ability does NOT change when you change forms. It remains the ability to use Wish as a (Su) once per year. I don't know how much plainer I can put it.

Round 1: You are a dragon and claw something because you can. Number of Zodar wishes used: 0; Maximum number of Zodar wishes you can use this year: 0. (You are not a Zodar)
Round 2: You turn into a Zodar, and think about what to wish for. Number of Zodar wishes used: 0; Maximum number of Zodar wishes you can use this year: 1. (because you're a Zodar)
Round 3: You make a Zodar wish! Yay! Number of Zodar wishes used: 1; Maximum number of Zodar wishes you can use this year: 1. (You had not reached your yearly limit, so you could make one.)
Round 4: You turn into a beholder and zap things. Number of Zodar wishes used: 1; Maximum number of Zodar wishes you can use this year: 0. (You've actually used more than you CAN use! Amazing! But this means you're definitely not using another one right now.)
Round 5: You turn back into a Zodar, and try to make a wish, but find you've used them all up for the year. Number of Zodar wishes used: 1; Maximum number of Zodar wishes you can use this year: 1. (You're still at your limit. You'd need to be able to make 2 Zodar wishes this year in order to actually be able to make a second.)


The way I see it is like this:
Lets say we have Bob.
Bob transforms into a zodar.
He is now "Generic Zodar 1"
Generic zodar 1 has an ability wish: 1 per year.
Bob casts wish.
Then Bob transforms into "Generic Zodar 2"
Generic zodar 2 has an ability wish: 1 per year.
Bob casts wish.

Repeat to infinity.
So you transform into creature that has ability X.
Just because you previously transformed into creature Y (that just happens to be the same species) doesnt matter. You have a "new" body. With "new" abilities, which have full charges.

Does it break game? DUH!
But its RAW legal :DExcept it's not. Nothing in the spell says it's a "new" body with "new" abilities nor uses thereof. It says you assume the creature's form. That means you're still you. You just happen to be that creature. If you've not used all of its allotment of abilities for a time period, you can use them. If you have, you can't. It doesn't matter how many times you become something else and change back, the maximum number of uses of that form's abilities you get in a time period doesn't change.

You're NOT becoming a different creature. You're becoming a generic example of that creature. And that generic example happens to still be YOU. So anything you've done counts against its limits.

[Somensjev]

But that's not what the spell says it does. It says you change your shape and gain the powers of that shape. That shape is still you.

technically, that shape isn't you, you are your original shape, you assume the form of a non-you shape, with your mind. at least, that's what i believe


It would, and it shouldn't. You're incorrect.

citation needed? you've put forth no actual evidence that i've seen to support your side of the argument


The abilities don't change. When you become, say, a dragon, you gain the ability to breathe a breath weapon once every 1d4+1 rounds. Let's say you're using Shapechange, and you choose to breathe and come up with 5 rounds you have to wait, then turn into a choker for two actions in the next round, then change back to a dragon. You're still a dragon that used its breath weapon 2 rounds ago and which must now wait 3 more rounds before it can breathe its breath weapon again.

nope, a dragon who used his breath 2 rounds ago is a unique dragon. try again

[Chronos]

In that case, the moment you use any of a form's abilities, you fall out of that form. Use your breath weapon? You're now a unique dragon, which isn't allowed. Or maybe it just means you're never allowed to use them at all.

[Renen]

@segev

Ok. Lets try it like this. Ima use some metaphors, hope you dont mind.

Every time you transform, the universe basically opens the source book, looks at base creature stats and mskes u that creature.

You turn into zodar, universe goes and gives u zodar stuff, including a magical bottle that has magic water in it. Open bottle, get wish. Bottle replenishes its water supply slowly, and takes a year to get full.

So you open bottle, water spills out, you get wish.

Then you go and turn into zodar again. (Lets say after having spent a minute as a cute bunny). The universe goes and makes you zodar again. Then it gives you a new bottle, because thats what zodars get.

Now, you think its gonna go "hey wait a second... you had a bottle before..." and empty it?
Or is it gonna go "new body, new bottle"?

I doubt it goes and checks all the things you ever done, to make sure you arent using some "once in a lifetime" ability a 2nd time.
It just slaps on the stats of your new form and calls it a day.

[Segev]

@segev

Ok. Lets try it like this. Ima use some metaphors, hope you dont mind.

Every time you transform, the universe basically opens the source book, looks at base creature stats and mskes u that creature.

You turn into zodar, universe goes and gives u zodar stuff, including a magical bottle that has magic water in it. Open bottle, get wish. Bottle replenishes its water supply slowly, and takes a year to get full.

So you open bottle, water spills out, you get wish.

Then you go and turn into zodar again. (Lets say after having spent a minute as a cute bunny). The universe goes and makes you zodar again. Then it gives you a new bottle, because thats what zodars get.

Now, you think its gonna go "hey wait a second... you had a bottle before..." and empty it?
Or is it gonna go "new body, new bottle"?

That's the wrong way to look at it. The universe doesn't "give" you anything. The universe gets told "his race is found on p. XyZ of such-and-such book," and the universe looks up what you've become. It checks to see how many times you may use your powers in a given time period, based on your race. When you try to use one of said powers, it compares the number of times you've already used said powers against the number of times you're allowed to in the time period in question. If you've used fewer than you're allowed, it works. If you've used at least as many as you're allowed, the universe says, "sorry, you've exceeded your allowed uses in this time period; please try again next time period."

It's a simple check: is X < Y, where X is the number of times you've used it, and Y is the most times you can use it in this time period. If X < Y, it lets you use it and increments X. If not, nothing happens when you try.

[eggynack]

In that case, the moment you use any of a form's abilities, you fall out of that form. Use your breath weapon? You're now a unique dragon, which isn't allowed. Or maybe it just means you're never allowed to use them at all.
That doesn't logic. The limit is on assuming unique forms. Shapechange doesn't stop you from having a unique form after assuming a non-unique one.

[Renen]

But the question is why does the universe check?

It looks up zodar, and makes you a generic zodar. Now, even though your entire being (except for your sexy mind) has been turned into an entirely different thing, why is a restriction from another form applies?

Does this mean you can only speak 3 times in zodar form ever?
Or doesnt it make more sense that you are now a "zodar from pg. x" with all listed everythings? Because if we applied things that were previously done in a form to a new transformation, then what about having lower HP? Or having some buffs?
And of course the point about the fact that you wont be turning into a zodar from pg. x, but will instead turn into a "zodar that has x days left until he can use wish). And note the difference of you TURNING into said zodar right off the bat, instead of becoming it because of actions taken during transformation

[thethird]

My favorite shapechange problem is transforming in anything that is bound to a particular tree, lake, mass of water, bridge, etcetera. How could those be non unique?

[Bronk]

Maybe the non- unique ones are all from the Plane of Water?

[Max Caysey]

@segev

Ok. Lets try it like this. Ima use some metaphors, hope you dont mind.

Every time you transform, the universe basically opens the source book, looks at base creature stats and mskes u that creature.

You turn into zodar, universe goes and gives u zodar stuff, including a magical bottle that has magic water in it. Open bottle, get wish. Bottle replenishes its water supply slowly, and takes a year to get full.

So you open bottle, water spills out, you get wish.

Then you go and turn into zodar again. (Lets say after having spent a minute as a cute bunny). The universe goes and makes you zodar again. Then it gives you a new bottle, because thats what zodars get.

Now, you think its gonna go "hey wait a second... you had a bottle before..." and empty it?
Or is it gonna go "new body, new bottle"?

I doubt it goes and checks all the things you ever done, to make sure you arent using some "once in a lifetime" ability a 2nd time.
It just slaps on the stats of your new form and calls it a day.

I agree with this 100%. Read the spell guys! It says: "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form" Its so simple!

[Chronos]

Yes, it is simple. And one of those supernatural abilities is Wish once per year. Nobody's disputing that you can get a Wish by changing into a Zodar. The dispute is whether you can get multiple Wishes, even though the Zodar only gets one.

[Melcar]

But that's not what the spell says it does. It says you change your shape and gain the powers of that shape. That shape is still you.

No! Incorrect. You are now in the form of a Zodar. And in that form you get (Ex) and (Su) abilities. It does not say, "so long as you have not used them, faster than they replenish"

[Renen]

Yeh. You become a generic zodar that has skill "wish once per year".
I am not sure you can transform into "Zodar that came to be through a metamorphosis spell, and was previously a different zodar, and having used wish in his new form now cant use wish again"
Thats quite a fancy thing to transform into dont you think?

[Psyren]

Sheesh, are you guys still arguing about this?

It's a DM call, and one that is unlikely to come up outside of forum posts anyway.

[Segev]

Or doesnt it make more sense that you are now a "zodar from pg. x" with all listed everythings? Because if we applied things that were previously done in a form to a new transformation, then what about having lower HP? Or having some buffs?So...you're now trying to claim that your hp total becomes that of the Zodar on page X of whatever book every time you assume the form? And that you lose the buff spells you put on yourself when you were in Beholder form six seconds ago?

That very clearly does not happen, so if that's how you're supporting your interpretation, it clearly implies you're wrong.

And of course the point about the fact that you wont be turning into a zodar from pg. x, but will instead turn into a "zodar that has x days left until he can use wish). And note the difference of you TURNING into said zodar right off the bat, instead of becoming it because of actions taken during transformationEr... no. You become a Zodar, which is listed as being able to make a Wish once per year. If you made a Wish (through the Zodar's ability) 12 seconds ago, you still have made a Wish once already this year through the Zodar's granted ability.

You're right. You gain the Zodar's ability. It's just that you've already used it before you took the form (this time).


I agree with this 100%. Read the spell guys! It says: "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form" Its so simple!Yep. And the abilities specify when and how you can use them. If you've already reached or exceeded the allowed uses, you've still got the ability...but it's used up until the appropriate time (or other recharge condition) passes (or occurs). Nobody's disputing that a Zodar gets a wish 1/year. But it doesn't get it 2/year just because it briefly became a beholder or a human or an elf.


Yes, it is simple. And one of those supernatural abilities is Wish once per year. Nobody's disputing that you can get a Wish by changing into a Zodar. The dispute is whether you can get multiple Wishes, even though the Zodar only gets one.Exactly.


No! Incorrect. You are now in the form of a Zodar. And in that form you get (Ex) and (Su) abilities. It does not say, "so long as you have not used them, faster than they replenish"It also doesn't say "even if you've already used them the last time you assumed this form." The ability clearly states how many times you can use it in a given time period. The fact that you briefly became something else doesn't change how many times you've used it, nor how many times you're allowed to use it.


Yeh. You become a generic zodar that has skill "wish once per year".
I am not sure you can transform into "Zodar that came to be through a metamorphosis spell, and was previously a different zodar, and having used wish in his new form now cant use wish again"
Thats quite a fancy thing to transform into dont you think?Indeed. And it's what you'd have to do in order to get multiple wishes per year: you'd have to transform SPECIFICALLY into a DIFFERENT Zodar than you were before, a unique Zodar that is not you, unlike the generic Zodar you changed your form to before.

You have used 1 wish already this year from the Zodar's granted ability. It doesn't matter how many times you stop being a Zodar and become one again, that count doesn't change. You used a wish this year. Thus, when you try to do it again before next year, the ability says, "Nope, you've hit your maximum. Please try again next year."

I'm not sure if people are not understanding this point, or are simply claiming it's somehow counter to the RAW. If the former, I'll keep trying to find a better way to phrase it. If the latter, then all I can say is that you're wrong; it's a completely valid reading of the RAW. I can see how the counter-claim that "each time you take the form, you gain a new Wish" is read from the RAW, but I think it a misinterpretation. It assumes that you're becoming a different creature every time you assume the same form, that that creature is NOT you, and that it therefore has a fresh use of an ability "stored" in it. This is accurate if you talk about summoning or calling creatures; it is not accurate if you talk about shapeshifting. For it to be accurate, you'd have to demonstrate that a form you assume is no longer you and that you have not used the abilities that are used while in that form.

I should note that this would imply that becoming an elf would mean any spells you cast while an elf would not be expended once you turn back into a human, because those were cast by a generic elf, not the specific human you became.

[Somensjev]

It also doesn't say "even if you've already used them the last time you assumed this form." The ability clearly states how many times you can use it in a given time period. The fact that you briefly became something else doesn't change how many times you've used it, nor how many times you're allowed to use it.

actually, it states how many times that specific zodar (or form) can use it in a certain time
since you're unable to become the same non-unique zodar, since it's no longer non-unique, your new zodar form would have all of it's abilities reset

you become a generic zodar, use it's wish (since the wish is native to the form, not you). then become a new generic zodar, since your old one is no longer non-unique, and you use it's wish


edit:
double edit: the quote didn't work, this spoiler is a second quote from segev
Indeed. And it's what you'd have to do in order to get multiple wishes per year: you'd have to transform SPECIFICALLY into a DIFFERENT Zodar than you were before, a unique Zodar that is not you, unlike the generic Zodar you changed your form to before.

You have used 1 wish already this year from the Zodar's granted ability. It doesn't matter how many times you stop being a Zodar and become one again, that count doesn't change. You used a wish this year. Thus, when you try to do it again before next year, the ability says, "Nope, you've hit your maximum. Please try again next year."

but you do become a new zodar, since your old one is no longer non-unique. but just because it's a new zodar doesn't mean it's not another generic one

but you've only used that specific zodar's wish, if you can't wish the next time you change into a zodar, then someone ignored the non-unique part of the spell, since a zodar who used it's wish is no longer non-unique, especially if it's the generic zodar you already transformed into

to fulfil the non-unique part of the spell, you have to become a different generic zodar, every single time, even if you didn't do anything in it's form. just the act of changing into it makes in no longer non-unique

[Bronk]

Yes, it is simple. And one of those supernatural abilities is Wish once per year. Nobody's disputing that you can get a Wish by changing into a Zodar. The dispute is whether you can get multiple Wishes, even though the Zodar only gets one.

I'm disputing it.

The zodar's supernatural wish ability specifies that it grants a wish 'as if cast by a sorcerer of the same HD'. Even for 3.0 monsters, this was odd wording.

A non-unique zodar is 16HD, and sorcerers only get ninth level spells at 18th level. As the equivalent of a 16th level sorcerer, zodars do not have the wish ability.

The good news is that you can still shapechange into a glabrezu (12HD, for a friend at least), pit fiend (18HD) or solar (22HD) and get the same shot at a wish this thread has been discussing.

[Segev]

actually, it states how many times that specific zodar (or form) can use it in a certain time
since you're unable to become the same non-unique zodar, since it's no longer non-unique, your new zodar form would have all of it's abilities reset

you become a generic zodar, use it's wish (since the wish is native to the form, not you). then become a new generic zodar, since your old one is no longer non-unique, and you use it's wishThe ability to use wish 1/year is part of the form, yes. If you have used the wish granted by assuming zodar form once this year already, that doesn't change when you become a Zodar again.

You keep trying to make it like the form is separate from you, but it clearly isn't, or you would be able to use spells in Zodar form, then revert to your base form and not have expended them, because it was the Zodar that cast them and not you. Which is clearly a silly interpretation of the rules, but a necessary interpretation for your idea that the Zodar is a different being than the person you are to make sense.


but you do become a new zodar, since your old one is no longer non-unique.It never says you become a new one. In fact, there is nothing "unique" about a Zodar that has used its wish. Unless you're trying to claim that there is never more than one Zodar at a time that has used its wish for the year?


but just because it's a new zodar doesn't mean it's not another generic oneIt isn't a new one. It's still you, in Zodar form. Zodars are not a unique monster, so you can become one. But that doesn't mean you become a "new" one every time you take on the form.


but you've only used that specific zodar's wishThe "specific Zodar" that is you? Yes, you have. You've used your yearly wish; it doesn't matter how many times you stop being a Zodar and become one again, you've still used your one and only wish for the year as a Zodar.


if you can't wish the next time you change into a zodar, then someone ignored the non-unique part of the spell, since a zodar who used it's wish is no longer non-unique,The only way this sentence both makes sense and is true is if there is something that ensures that there is only one Zodar at a time who has expended its yearly wish. "Non-unique" means that there is more than one. Are you saying there is NEVER more than one Zodar that has expended its wish?


especially if it's the generic zodar you already transformed intoNo. You're still looking at this wrong. You don't turn into a different creature. You change your form and gain powers appropriate to a generic creature of the form you're in. That doesn't change that you're still you, nor that you've used resources you had used prior to assuming the form at this time.


to fulfil the non-unique part of the spell, you have to become a different generic zodar, every single time, even if you didn't do anything in it's form.False, as I've explained above. Please refute my points rather than repeating yourself so we can stop going around in circles saying "nuh-uh/uh-huh!"


just the act of changing into it makes in no longer non-uniqueThen you can't change into it at all! Because you inherently turn into a unique creature when you do it, by this logic.

[Melcar]

The ability to use wish 1/year is part of the form, yes. If you have used the wish granted by assuming zodar form once this year already, that doesn't change when you become a Zodar again.

You keep trying to make it like the form is separate from you, but it clearly isn't, or you would be able to use spells in Zodar form, then revert to your base form and not have expended them, because it was the Zodar that cast them and not you. Which is clearly a silly interpretation of the rules, but a necessary interpretation for your idea that the Zodar is a different being than the person you are to make sense.

It never says you become a new one. In fact, there is nothing "unique" about a Zodar that has used its wish. Unless you're trying to claim that there is never more than one Zodar at a time that has used its wish for the year?

It isn't a new one. It's still you, in Zodar form. Zodars are not a unique monster, so you can become one. But that doesn't mean you become a "new" one every time you take on the form.

The "specific Zodar" that is you? Yes, you have. You've used your yearly wish; it doesn't matter how many times you stop being a Zodar and become one again, you've still used your one and only wish for the year as a Zodar.

The only way this sentence both makes sense and is true is if there is something that ensures that there is only one Zodar at a time who has expended its yearly wish. "Non-unique" means that there is more than one. Are you saying there is NEVER more than one Zodar that has expended its wish?

No. You're still looking at this wrong. You don't turn into a different creature. You change your form and gain powers appropriate to a generic creature of the form you're in. That doesn't change that you're still you, nor that you've used resources you had used prior to assuming the form at this time.

False, as I've explained above. Please refute my points rather than repeating yourself so we can stop going around in circles saying "nuh-uh/uh-huh!"

Then you can't change into it at all! Because you inherently turn into a unique creature when you do it, by this logic.

I understand what you are saying do take your arguments into account, I smply understand the spell differently. To me every time you assume a form, you gain all the (Ex) and (Su), every time you enter that form. That how, despite the very good arguments against it. I believe that were cooldowns or uses of abilities included in the way you describe I would assume it to be mentioned. Nothing except that every time you assume a form you gain all the (Ex) and (Su). I simply dont read the spell as you do. I do not want to sould arrogant, but there is no use is debating this further for me. I know I initially started this question, but as this thread went on, the more clearer it became to me.

"You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form"...

Not: "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form, but cooldown time apply to you despite whether or not the spell is active and despite what shape you change into, and if you have already used an ability that only works once every day and change back to the form that had that ability, then that ability does bot become active until next day."

[Chronos]

Quoth Bronk:

The good news is that you can still shapechange into a glabrezu (12HD, for a friend at least), pit fiend (18HD) or solar (22HD) and get the same shot at a wish this thread has been discussing.
If you could, then nobody would ever mention a monster as obscure as the zodar (seriously, who even has Monster Manual IV?). But while all those monsters get Wish, they all get it as a spell-like ability, which Shapechange doesn't grant (though you can still Gate them). Zodars, however, bizarrely get it as a supernatural ability, which Shapechange does grant.

[Chronos]

Quoth Melcar:

I believe that were cooldowns or uses of abilities included in the way you describe I would assume it to be mentioned.
It is mentioned, right there in the Zodar listing. You change into a Zodar, you get Wish 1/year. There's your cooldown.

[Segev]

I understand what you are saying do take your arguments into account, I smply understand the spell differently. To me every time you assume a form, you gain all the (Ex) and (Su), every time you enter that form. That how, despite the very good arguments against it. I believe that were cooldowns or uses of abilities included in the way you describe I would assume it to be mentioned. Nothing except that every time you assume a form you gain all the (Ex) and (Su). I simply dont read the spell as you do. I do not want to sould arrogant, but there is no use is debating this further for me. I know I initially started this question, but as this thread went on, the more clearer it became to me.

"You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form"...

Not: "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form, but cooldown time apply to you despite whether or not the spell is active and despite what shape you change into, and if you have already used an ability that only works once every day and change back to the form that had that ability, then that ability does bot become active until next day."

See, my reading is, "You gain all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form," not, "you gain extra uses of the assumed form's abilities by assuming it multiple times."

There doesn't need to be anything mentioned about "cooldowns" because it's listed in the abilities of the form. You assume the form; you can use the ability that many times. You can't use it MORE times than that. No matter how many times you assume the form.

[Renen]

I'm not sure if people are not understanding this point, or are simply claiming it's somehow counter to the RAW. If the former, I'll keep trying to find a better way to phrase it. If the latter, then all I can say is that you're wrong; it's a completely valid reading of the RAW. I can see how the counter-claim that "each time you take the form, you gain a new Wish" is read from the RAW, but I think it a misinterpretation. It assumes that you're becoming a different creature every time you assume the same form, that that creature is NOT you, and that it therefore has a fresh use of an ability "stored" in it. This is accurate if you talk about summoning or calling creatures; it is not accurate if you talk about shapeshifting. For it to be accurate, you'd have to demonstrate that a form you assume is no longer you and that you have not used the abilities that are used while in that form.

I should note that this would imply that becoming an elf would mean any spells you cast while an elf would not be expended once you turn back into a human, because those were cast by a generic elf, not the specific human you became.

Then what about this:

1) You turn into generic zodar 1
2) You use wish.
3) You turn into generic zodar 2
4) Generic zodar 2 also has the wish ability, but it isnt taken from same "pool" of charges.
5) Make wish

In other words, you count the wishes as the following:
1/year wish from zodar 1
and
1/year wish from zodar 2

In other words as technically completely different abilities, because each is given by a different "source"

Its you both times (no dispute), but the abilities that you get come from different "things" in this case "Generic Zodar 1" and "Generic Zodar 2"

So its kinda like having a totally different skill, one called "Wish from Generic Zodar 1" and the other "Wish from Generic Zodar 2"

Thoughts?

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, I think my take on it is that a character doesn't actually become a different being when one shapechanges. The character is still the character. They now have an ability of the zodar form treated as the character's own ability (insofar as the character gets to determine parameters of the ability, rather than the zodar form having anything to say about it, if you get the rather unusual distinction here).

Thus, Mr. X is now a zodar. It's Mr. X that has the ability "wish 1/year." It's caused by the zodar form, but it's Mr. X's ability.

Thus, when Mr. X uses the wish, shapechanges to some other form, then shapechanges back to zodar, it's still his ability to use wish we are referencing. And he's already used it.

How do we know this?

Only creatures have abilities. But there isn't some other creature that exists due to shapechange to have that ability. The form confers that ability upon the person using shapechange. Even if you killed all zodars, you could still shapechange into a zodar, and the ability granted by shapechange would be yours, not that of "magically formed zodar x."

If you can't become Zodar X, then it follows that there is no other zodar, Zodar Y, that you can then become. The zodar that you become, to my mind, is just a zodar. You can't become a non-specific zodar in two different, specific ways.

Yeah, pretty sure that last line is the formulation of my viewpoint.

[Renen]

While the zodars are "generic" they ARE infact different.
One for example is a zodar you turned into at 6pm and another is a zodar you turned into at 6:01pm

They are two different instances. And each time you transform you get their skills.
So you got two different wishes

1) Wish of a zodar that Bob transformed into at 6pm
2) Wish of a zodar that Bob transformed into at 6:01pm

Since you gain the ability of a form you turn into, at 6pm you gain a wish, and at 6:01pm you gain a "different" wish because it comes from a different "generic zodar" creature.
Same as you would gain a wish if there was another creature with a wish ability similar to zodars, and you turned into it.

What I am saying is, the different times you transform, the transformations are effectively "unique", thus giving you "unique" instances of skills. Yet the creature you turn into is the same.

Think of it like transforming into this red balloon: http://www.photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/2846/3776red_balloon.jpg

Red balloon can only be popped once before it can never be popped again, due to being "dead".

So you turn into a red balloon, and get popped.
Then you turn into a red balloon again.
You can still be popped (something that you technically should only be able to experience once in a lifetime), because its a different "unique" instance of transformation

[Phelix-Mu]

Uh. No, sorry, I don't buy that. The character isn't "turning into" anything. The character is assuming the form of something that may or may not exist (but is in a Monster Manual somewhere), within the limits set down in the spell. You can't turn into "zodar of 6:01" because that is not a thing. How do I know this? Because I look in the appropriate Monster Manual. There is only "zodar." No "zodar [timestamp]", just zodar.

The "different zodars" argument implies that they exist as such to turn into. I could shapechange into a goblin and call myself Immish, and then turn into a goblin and call myself Boop. But it's the same goblin. Ability to manipulate small details doesn't change the effect that the form taken is "goblin" in the mechanical sense (and it's only the mechanical sense that matters for the zodar debate).

Again, I reference the instance of taking the form of something that doesn't exist, perhaps because Mr. X has already murdered all goblins ever. Mr. X can still change into a goblin. But it isn't a goblin; it's Mr. X with the abilities of "A goblin." A non-specific goblin, as "a" is an indefinite article.

If the spell says that it allows you to take on a form, it doesn't imply that there is some finer granularity to that form than the Monster Manual implies.

Please cite me a bit from the spell that suggests otherwise, and I will happily change my mind, as this is simply my opinion at this point in time, and hardly set in stone.

[Bronk]

If you could, then nobody would ever mention a monster as obscure as the zodar (seriously, who even has Monster Manual IV?). But while all those monsters get Wish, they all get it as a spell-like ability, which Shapechange doesn't grant (though you can still Gate them). Zodars, however, bizarrely get it as a supernatural ability, which Shapechange does grant.

Sure, it would be very powerful if it worked. Maybe the clause that specifies the sorcerer level has just been overlooked all this time. I couldn't say.

The zodar is a weird case. It's from the MM2, which is 3.0 material. In 3.0, it was still unique in that its wish power was supernatural, when Efreeti, Pit Fiends and Solars had wish as a spell like ability (glabrezu didn't have wish at all in 3.0), but on the other hand the 'shapechange' spell didn't grant either, so the possible trick didn't exist then. Also, even in 3.0 sorcerers didn't get 9ths until level 18.

The zodar never had its wish ability updated anywhere, but it is possible that no-one thought it was necessary because only an improved specimen could use it, which took it out of the running for powers granted by 'shapechange'.

[Renen]

The "different zodars" argument implies that they exist as such to turn into. I could shapechange into a goblin and call myself Immish, and then turn into a goblin and call myself Boop. But it's the same goblin. Ability to manipulate small details doesn't change the effect that the form taken is "goblin" in the mechanical sense (and it's only the mechanical sense that matters for the zodar debate).


No, my point is that no two transformations are technically the same. Sure, you turn into the same "thing". The thing being "generic zodar". But conditions around you make each transformation unique. Not the FORM you take, but the act of transforming. Thus I argue that even though you are identical to the zodar that you transformed into a turn ago, you draw from a new "pool" for any ability that is /year or similar, because the act of transforming made you into a "unique" creature, but this was after the spell already decided your "generic form".

Kinda like my balloon example. You are transforming into a generic balloon, but each new form is a new form taken under different circumstances, thus technically unique. So the process of transforming into a non-unique creature and becoming a unique one happen at the same time, because of things like the passage of time, or some such making each transformation happen under different circumstances.

[eggynack]

The zodar never had its wish ability updated anywhere, but it is possible that no-one thought it was necessary because only an improved specimen could use it, which took it out of the running for powers granted by 'shapechange'.
The zodar is also in the fiend folio, wish intact, and the update booklet, which includes the fiend folio, does nothing to change that. The ability is thus very much a part of 3.5.

[Graypairofsocks]

The zodar is a weird case. It's from the MM2, which is 3.0 material.

The Zodar is only from the "Fiend Folio", and the MMII was given an official update online (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).

[Phelix-Mu]

No, I'm still not convinced. Terms like "unique" and "generic" have little solid rules precedent, and are used purely demonstratively by us. "Nonunique" is used in shapechange, but as unique has no solid game meaning, and only a inconstant way to apply the English, what I argue is that the caster is still the caster, they just have a set of abilities equal to an entry in the relevant MM. Again, there can't be two unique instances of a nonunique zodar. And, indeed, it really doesn't matter which zodar you become, anyway. You still aren't a zodar. You just have the form and certain abilities of a generic zodar. The abilities aren't the zodar's; they are the casters, and correlate to those of the form. Thus, it seems bizarre to me to correlate the time limits on the wish to the nonexistent zodar; the frame of reference is the caster, just like the duration of the spell refers to the caster, not the zodar.

Sorry about backsliding into the second person. Not meant to be accusatory or personal, just way too tired at this point to correct myself.

So, to summarize:

1.) The zodar is nonunique. Thus, it's "a zodar" not "the zodar."

2.) Because it can't be "the zodar" it can't be "a zodar now" and "a zodar then" when they are distinct zodar. Because this would mean you could say "the first zodar" and be specific in a way the spell doesn't say you can be.

3.) In any case, it's not a zodar. It's the caster borrowing abilities from a creatures entry. It's not the zodar's year that matters; there is no zodar, only the caster. Thus, the only frame of reference that makes sense is the caster's year. The spell never implies that a conceptual zodar is created with a conceptual per year ability that could be distinct from some other zodar's per year ability (and, if it did, it runs into the nonunique issue).

[Vaz]

If the opposite of unique is generic, then taking the form of a generic zodar means you take the ability as written in the game rules, which gives you the ability to Wish 1/year. You use that Wish. Shapechange shuffle, and now take the form of the generic zodar. Which has the ability in the rules to Wish 1/year. You then shapechange shuffle, and now take the form of the generic zodar. Which has the ability in the rules to Wish 1/year, etc, etc.

[Anlashok]

Really the correct answer here is that you can't Shapechange at all, since you never actually stop being yourself and "Yourself as a Zodar" clearly isn't generic, the spell never has a valid option in the first place

[icefractal]

It kind of comes down to how abilities are tracked. When you can do X, Y times a day, is it that:
A) You get Y "tokens" that you can then expend to use X.
B) You tally a mark every time you use X. When you have Y marks, you can't use X any more.
Note: Model A with "negative tokens" possible is the same as Model B.

Now for the game to be playable, we have go with model B. Because a large number of things become infinite in model A. For example, Turn Undead.

Model A:
1) A cleric uses all his Turn Undead for the day. 0 uses left. He puts on a Cloak of Charisma, gaining one more use.
2) He uses it. No more "tokens" left. Then he takes the cloak off.
3) He puts the cloak back on. Hey, another use!

So, Zodar:
1) Turn into Zodar. I have Wish, 1/year. Use it.
2) Total number of Zodar Wishes used this year: 1
3) Stop being a Zodar. Total number used still one, just like the Cleric has still used seven Turn Undeads today even when he only has six without the cloak.
4) Turn back into a Zodar. Number of Wishes already used this year: still 1.

[Bronk]

The zodar is also in the fiend folio, wish intact, and the update booklet, which includes the fiend folio, does nothing to change that. The ability is thus very much a part of 3.5.

Right sorry, meant Fiend Folio.

However, that's exactly what I'm talking about. They had two chances to fix the strange wording of the zodar's wish ability and they didn't. As it stands, non-unique zodars can't use their wish ability because they don't have enough HD.

Perhaps this was intentional... the zodar's description says that they are encountered when they randomly show up and start hanging out with an adventuring party... maybe they were intended to use their wish for the party after they've helped out for a while and leveled up a bit.

[Renen]

Dont have book on hand but... does it just say "cast as sorcerer of his HD"?
Who says a sorcerer of that HD CANT cast wish? Sure, their lvl isnt high enough to have it as a spell, but is anything preventing them from casting wish if they DID have it (via shenanigans)?

[Bronk]

Dont have book on hand but... does it just say "cast as sorcerer of his HD"?
Who says a sorcerer of that HD CANT cast wish? Sure, their lvl isnt high enough to have it as a spell, but is anything preventing them from casting wish if they DID have it (via shenanigans)?

It says "Wish (Su): Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice."

Without shenanigans, a sorcerer could only do this with a scroll.

I'd be interested to hear about shenanigans that would work though! This is the Zodar Abuse thread after all. I'm hoping Chronos is right, and there is a trick somewhere that people have been using to make this work, without ignoring the text of the ability.

[Segev]

The balloon example is actually more in support of the "caster gets only the one wish per year" argument.

If you turn into a balloon, and are popped, you are dead, and your corpse (per the spell) reverts to your true form...which is dead. You cannot shapeshift from "dead" to "alive."

[Vaz]

Tangential irrelevance.

Also, note that it inherits from Alter Self without precluding the information that your HP doesn't change. The only thing mentioning that is you gain HP as if you rested when you change form, which if you are dead, you cannot take an action so again irrelevant.

[Chronos]

I think the "...of level equal to HD" just sets the caster level (which is occasionally relevant even for Wish). That was also a fairly common wording for spell-like abilities in 3.0, including (I'm pretty sure) some other cases where the level wouldn't be high enough for a sorcerer to cast that spell.

What I really wonder about, though, is if there is in fact a general rule somewhere that supernatural abilities don't have components (Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell doesn't, but that might be specific to that class). If there isn't such a rule, then the Zodar's wish would inherit the XP cost, through the "as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer..." clause. This wouldn't really make a difference for NPC zodars, which have as much XP as the DM says they do, but would make it considerably less broken for PC use (by the time you can use Shapechange, the XP cost is the only thing preventing you from casting Wish directly).

[Renen]

You dont necessarily die, youjust gain the "popped" debuff :D

As for sorcerer, im pretty sure you use illumian sigil, sanctum spell, blood pool, and the like to gain ability to cast lvl 9 spells. Theres a thread how to get lvl 9 casting on a fighter using feats. Im pretty sure a lvl 16 sorc can do it.

[Chronos]

Ah, here we go, from page 8 of the 3.0 Monster Manual:

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level serves to define how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variable (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature's caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice.

Just flipping through quickly for an example of this, the Dretch demon (pg. 43) has

Spell-like abilities: At will-- darkness, scare, and telekinesis; 1/day-- stinking cloud. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 2nd-level sorcerer (save DC 10 + spell level)
Note that it has some fairly high-level SLAs that a 2nd-level sorcerer couldn't cast.

Nor is sorcerer always the class used for comparison: For instance, gnomes say

Gnomes with Intelligence scores of 10 or higher may cast dancing lights, ghost sound, and prestidigitation, each once per day as a 1st-level wizard (spell failure penalties for armor apply)
In this context, the only thing odd about the zodar's wish being "as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice" is that it's being applied to a supernatural ability instead of a spell-like.

[Segev]

You dont necessarily die, youjust gain the "popped" debuff :D

If you like. In which case, you don't lose said debuff when you change into a non-balloon. Nor do you lose it when you turn back into a balloon.

[Renen]

So if you are demoralized somehow and turn into undead you stay demoralized? (I actually dont know)

[Segev]

So if you are demoralized somehow and turn into undead you stay demoralized? (I actually dont know)

If you gain an immunity to a status condition, that doesn't end the status condition; it just makes you no longer suffer its effects. If that immunity goes away while you still are under the status condition, you once more suffer its effects.

[Renen]

http://cdn.hark.com/images/000/006/085/6085/original.0

[Bronk]

Ah, here we go, from page 8 of the 3.0 Monster Manual:

In this context, the only thing odd about the zodar's wish being "as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice" is that it's being applied to a supernatural ability instead of a spell-like.

I think that's plausible... at the least, it's much less of a rule flub by the publishers, and makes the text for the wish fern's wish make more sense!

[Vogonjeltz]

Then what about this:

1) You turn into generic zodar 1
2) You use wish.
3) You turn into generic zodar 2
4) Generic zodar 2 also has the wish ability, but it isnt taken from same "pool" of charges.
5) Make wish

In other words, you count the wishes as the following:
1/year wish from zodar 1
and
1/year wish from zodar 2

In other words as technically completely different abilities, because each is given by a different "source"

Its you both times (no dispute), but the abilities that you get come from different "things" in this case "Generic Zodar 1" and "Generic Zodar 2"

So its kinda like having a totally different skill, one called "Wish from Generic Zodar 1" and the other "Wish from Generic Zodar 2"

Thoughts?

Then you're turning into two unique creatures, generic zodar 1 who is distinct from generic zodar 2.

Where does it say that shapechange turns you into a new entity again? I only see it changing the form of the caster, never changing their identity. Same creature retains all cool downs.

[Renen]

So two casters can cast the spell at the same time, and turn into two different zodars? One that has wish, and one that doesnt? (by doesnt i mean the cooldown)

[Chronos]

Two casters can both turn into zodars, and both have the 1/year Wish ability. It is possible that one caster has used up this ability while the other hasn't. Whether the one that's used it up has changed forms since is irrelevant.

[Renen]

Never said it is. But while we are on topic of how this spell can turn people into "different zodars", here are all the zodars you can be (if I remember zodar stuff correctly)

1) Zodar who has everything
2) Zodar who has no wish but has all uses of his voice ability
3) Wish but ony 2 uses of voice
4) wish and 1 use
5) wish and no voice
6) no wish and 2 uses of voice
7) no wish and 1 use of voice
8) zodar with no wish and no voice uses

Damn... thats alot of possibilities for a spell that turns you into one creature :D

[Segev]

Never said it is. But while we are on topic of how this spell can turn people into "different zodars", here are all the zodars you can be (if I remember zodar stuff correctly)

1) Zodar who has everything
2) Zodar who has no wish but has all uses of his voice ability
3) Wish but ony 2 uses of voice
4) wish and 1 use
5) wish and no voice
6) no wish and 2 uses of voice
7) no wish and 1 use of voice
8) zodar with no wish and no voice uses

Damn... thats alot of possibilities for a spell that turns you into one creature :D

Not really. It turns you into a zodar. How many times you've used the various abilities doesn't change how many times you are allowed to use the various abilities. You're allowed to use them however many times the Zodar entry says you are. If you've used them at least that many times, you can't use them any more.

Or are you implying that, upon casting Magic Missile, a sorcerer stops being the sorcerer he was before he cast it, because now he's a sorcerer who has used one more first level spell slot today than he was last round?

[Renen]

You are actually correct. He stops being the sorcerer with all full slots, and becomes a sorcerer with one empty slot.

[Segev]

You are actually correct. He stops being the sorcerer with all full slots, and becomes a sorcerer with one empty slot.

So he's no longer the same creature? Wow, that makes it really easy to ditch unwanted status effects. Since the effects target a creature, and this new one was never targeted! Cast a spell, and they go away!

More to the point, this means that since you're "Zodar A" when you turn into him, you have none of your class features you had as "Sorcerer Renen," so you can't cast your normal spells, nor use your own feats.

Or, if you're using a spell that specifically says you can, none of them explicitly say that your expended spell slots or ability-uses-per-day count against Renen-the-Sorcerer's spell slots or uses/day. Heck, they don't even say your already-expended uses/day nor spell slots remain expended. Since Zodar A is a new creature with all of the abilities the spell and the monster entry says he has, you would have (by your argument) all of your spell slots available every time you change form. Because each new form gets access to your base form's spells...but doesn't have any of them expended, because it's a new form, and your "base" form doesn't have them expended any more than a "base" Zodar has its wish expended.

[Vaz]

Has anybody ever thought of how pointless it is to debate poorly written RAW that has been hashed out long ago, yet with no new information to disprove/prove either, we are stuck with the same old arguments for or against (that pretty much come down to "I want to read the game rule this way, and this is the reasoning backing it up" (as opposed to "this is the reasoning the game works this way")?

Not to mention the rarity of this coming a) in an actual game, b) actually having a DM let the abuse take place and rampage all over the world?

This is pure TO, where the DM is assumed/expected to acquiesce to every request in the players favour of poorly written rules - such as wishing to become a Scaled One of Toril.

Everyone has an opinion on the matter, either one way or the other. They want to read it that way, and the arguments have been the same for the last few years. Depending on how people read RAW (funny how the written language allows that, right?), they can take it each way.

All I will have to say on the matter is that if you pick up Metamorphic Transfer, which allows Supernatural Abilities, it has this to say; "(You are still subject to other restrictions on the use of the ability.)"

I am not bringing it up again, other than to use as an example, but Genesis/Psionic Genesis - people believe that Genesis allows Time Traits to be modified, citing that it is allowed thanks to Psionic Genesis explicitly banning it, and no mention is paid otherwise. This ignorance of the comment "You are still subject to other restrictions on the use of the ability" using that line of thinking, would allow Shapechange to get 1 Wish/Year for each time they take the form of Zodar.

[Gemini476]

This is pure TO, where the DM is assumed/expected to acquiesce to every request in the players favour of poorly written rules - such as wishing to become a Scaled One of Toril.

You don't even need to wish for that if you're a Kobold native to Toril (that being the planet of the Forgotten Realms). And if you aren't in the Forgotten Realms, the wish is pretty nonsensical and Sarrukhs might not exist.
Pun-Pun used to be a Kobold with a viper familiar for a reason, you now.

Serpent Kingdoms gives a fairly exhaustive list of what is and isn't a Scaled One.

[Vaz]

Cheers for reiterating my point...

[Vogonjeltz]

You are actually correct. He stops being the sorcerer with all full slots, and becomes a sorcerer with one empty slot.

This is like the philosophical question of the Ship of Theseus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Or how, in a literal sense, crossing the exact same stream twice is impossible because every second results in minute changes.

Insofar as we are concerned, the boat, the stream, the sorcerer, and mialee the wizard using the shapechange spell, are all remaining themselves even undergoing minute changes. The game rules don't care that the character's form has changed regarding use limited abilities, it's still the same character.

[icefractal]

This is pure TO, where the DM is assumed/expected to acquiesce to every request in the players favour of poorly written rules - such as wishing to become a Scaled One of Toril.With the Zodar, it's TO, because Zodar wish shatters the game even with a single one. With other creatures, it's a practical concern. Being able to use Fire Breath 1/day vs 1/round is a pretty big difference, but neither one is going into TO territory.

[Vaz]

Can I have some examples, then please, that aren't dealt with by a spell of 9th level or less? Dragon's breath, for example, can be dealt with by having the appropriate subtype, or energy resistance spell/reflex check. Rare ones exist, like the Shadow Dragon, but if a DM has gotten to that level of play without energy drain, he is his own worst enemy.

[Chronos]

Just because you have spells doesn't mean everyone you face has them, too. Maybe you're fighting an army, and find repeated breath weapons to be an efficient way to clean them out. Maybe you've rendered the Tarrasque helpless, and now need to do a bunch of damage to him to knock him out. Maybe the BBEG is an epic-leveled warblade. Maybe you've just got a new DM who didn't know better than to start the party at 17th level, but doesn't know all the cat-and-mouse of high-level defenses and countermeasures. Maybe the enemy did have spells to protect against assorted breath weapons, and you started the fight by dispelling them.

[icefractal]

Can I have some examples, then please, that aren't dealt with by a spell of 9th level or less? Dragon's breath, for example, can be dealt with by having the appropriate subtype, or energy resistance spell/reflex check. Rare ones exist, like the Shadow Dragon, but if a DM has gotten to that level of play without energy drain, he is his own worst enemy.
:smallconfused: Umm, that was what I was saying. That there are situations where it isn't game-breaking, and so whether you get to use the ability 1/day or 1/round is an actual question where either answer could be legitimate. So it is something that people could care about clarifying because it makes a difference to actual game-play.

[Vaz]

How though? If it can be countered in standard play, then it can be countered in standard play, irrelevant of whether it's 1/day or 1 every other round... It is an irrelevance to the DM whether it goes either way?

[squiggit]

How though? If it can be countered in standard play, then it can be countered in standard play, irrelevant of whether it's 1/day or 1 every other round... It is an irrelevance to the DM whether it goes either way?

Er... it's not an irrelevance because it changes how the character in particular acts in that situation.

[Chronos]

If everything that could be countered always were countered, then we wouldn't have much of a game left.