Pathfinder: High Fantasy setting nerfs summoning?

[DuncanMacleod]

So, in a high fantasy setting compared to standard, PC's get 20 point point buy rather than 15 and get double WBL, NPC's with pure PC levels get the same advantages, NPC's with pure NPC class levels or NPC class levels mixed with PC's class are stuck on the suggested ability scores for NPC's (so get nerfed a bit in higher fantasy settings) but do get double WBL, but creatures with racial HD remain static in terms of both power and CR... on this basis, I would argue that racial HD creatures/monsters in general and summoning magic in particular are/is considerably more powerful in a lower fantasy setting and nerfed in higher fantasy settings. Discuss :).

(Seriously bit confused about this, only came to my attention today when re-reading the gm stuff in preparation for gm'ing a new campaign)....

[ngilop]

for me the terms 'low fantasy' and 'high fantasy' etc etc are misnomers

it not so much low or high fantasy as how powerful the heroes are, I think that would have been a better way to name the various point buy

it would be like
Farm Hand 10 points
Adventurer 15 points
Hero 20 points
Legend 25 points

Im not really getting where you have the double WBL from though,.... could you point that out to me?

[DuncanMacleod]

Yes, I think those terms are more appropriate, certainly with regard to relative power vs. monsters (or creatures with racial HD in general). NPC's do keep pace slightly more effectively though, so NPC's also gain relative power vs. monsters... to answer your question:

http://paizo.com/PRD/gamemastering.html

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

Table: Treasure Values per Encounter lists the amount of treasure each encounter should award based on the average level of the PCs and the speed of the campaign's XP progression (slow, medium, or fast). Easy encounters should award treasure one level lower than the PCs' average level. Challenging, hard, and epic encounters should award treasure one, two, or three levels higher than the PCs' average level, respectively. If you are running a low-fantasy game, cut these values in half. If you are running a high-fantasy game, double these values.

http://paizo.com/prd/creatingNPCs.html

Step 6: Gear

After recording all of the NPC's class features, the next step is to outfit the character with gear appropriate to his level. Note that NPCs receive less gear than PCs of an equal level. If an NPC is a recurring character, his gear should be selected carefully. Use the total gp value found on Table: NPC Gear to determine how much gear he should carry. NPCs that are only scheduled to appear once can have a simpler gear selection. Table: NPC Gear includes a number of categories to make it easier to select an NPC's gear. When outfitting the character, spend the listed amount on each category by purchasing as few items as possible. Leftover gold from any category can be spent on any other category. Funds left over at the end represent coins and jewelry carried by the character.

Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment. If your campaign is using the fast experience progression, treat your NPCs as one level higher when determining their gear. If your campaign is using the slow experience progression, treat the NPCs as one level lower when determining their gear. If your campaign is high fantasy, double these values. Reduce them by half if your campaign is low fantasy. If the final value of an NPC's gear is a little over or under these amounts, that's okay.

...surprised me too when actually read it.

[DuncanMacleod]

On a side note, up to now I have always tended to use the same point buy for NPC's as for players when making encounters I wanted to be challenging for my group (who tend to optimize moderately hard), but looking really closely it would seem this isn't actually allowed by RAW and I should have to use the "Heroic NPC" stat distribution (often called the "elite array" on here) for my NPC's with PC levels... looking at it the "elite array" is only a 15 point point buy.

I'm going to keep doing it my way anyway, but I do like to know when I'm house ruling and when I'm not.... opinions?

[ngilop]

well for me, I do 4d6 drop the lowest ( which according to the peeps is the elite array) for NPCs and I generally do not have them as powerful as the PCs- well for non important NPCs that is.

its not to make the PC feel powerful. but because unlike the NPC who will not survive the encounter with the PCs the PC have to deal with a dozen or more NPCs combat wise over the session and so by the end hitting the 'speed bumps' if you will, makes each subsequent one a bit stronger

I also do this because I am of the 'you earn the right to be called a hero, you do not start out as one" DM and player Camp, so my PCs are not going to get the big point buys that they would otherwise expect.


aslo a lot of DM and players house rule things and never realize they are house rules.. there is a thread on GiTP somewhere that is pages long that lists all the house rules that are not and vice versa but m internet search powers are none to good.

and with regards to the various point buy being called low fantasy or high fantasy. what you link just solidifies, to me, that it just a misnomer and should have a different name one more aptly put to how strong the PCs are

id use mine but I would like to change farm hand out to something that makes me sense in a fantasy quest like environment but I cannot think of anything.

[jiriku]

Yes, big nerf to summoners, since their stuff isn't augmented. When running high-point-buy games for optimizers, I almost exclusively use elite monsters and monsters with PC class levels, so that the opponents are cut from the same epic cloth as the PCs.