Ultimate Mage Slayer

[Lans]

At level 1

Azurin H&R Targeteer Fighter Shape soulmeld for rage claws, Willing Deformity from worshipping an elder evil, willing deformity madness, heart of nabassu and TWF feat from flaws. Dex to damage from Targeteer instead of a fighter feat. Starting wealth spent on 4 alchemists fires, sling, clubs, leather armor, long spear, 4 javelins.

Effective HP of 22+con, immune to mind influencing effects, Flasks for Shield+Mage Armor, can absorb a negative level, TWF for Abrupt Jaunt.

strong heart halfing is another valid option for race

[Twilightwyrm]

Sorry, how does TWF stop abrupt jaunting again?

[Lans]

Sorry, how does TWF stop abrupt jaunting again?

Throw a flask, wizard jaunts, throw second flask

[Tvtyrant]

Too bad my studly mage is paranoid and took precocious apprentice: mirror image to go along with her jaunt.

[Twilightwyrm]

Throw a flask, wizard jaunts, throw second flask

Ah I see. Makes sense.

[dextercorvia]

Grey Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 1

Feats: Spell Mastery (Sleep, Hail of Stone, and Summon Monster are among the mastered spells), Uncanny Forethought, Collegiate Wizard. Trade Scribe Spell for Improved Initiative. Trade your familiar for an Riding Dog Animal Companion.

You know 12 1st level spells, and can cast up to 5 first level spells -- if you leave your slots blank, you can Uncanny Forethought all of your slots, so you have incredible versatility.

If the fight starts at long range Sleep (standard action thanks to UF). If it starts closer, Color Spray then put your AC in Fighter's face.

[Malroth]

immune to sleep thanks to willing deformity madness, still no defense vs a fell drain sonic snap though

[Zanos]

Grey Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 1

Feats: Spell Mastery (Sleep, Hail of Stone, and Summon Monster are among the mastered spells), Uncanny Forethought, Collegiate Wizard. Trade Scribe Spell for Improved Initiative. Trade your familiar for an Riding Dog Animal Companion.

You know 12 1st level spells, and can cast up to 5 first level spells -- if you leave your slots blank, you can Uncanny Forethought all of your slots, so you have incredible versatility.

If the fight starts at long range Sleep (standard action thanks to UF). If it starts closer, Color Spray then put your AC in Fighter's face.
OP Stated example build was immune to mind affecting.

immune to sleep thanks to willing deformity madness, still no defense vs a fell drain sonic snap though
OP also stated it could absorb one negative level. The Heart of the Nabassu feat lets you do that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's pretty good for a 1st level mundane. Calling it "ultimate" anything is aiming a little high though. Calling anything mundane "mage slayer" requires a little more than high hp and a ranged touch attack.

Fire Elves, for example, are a pretty popular race for wizards. They get 5 fire resistance, among other things.
Still, you're immune to Color Spray and stand a good chance of making the save on Grease, so you'll probably win against a level 1 wizard.

Sadly, level 1 PvP is pretty rare. Killing a first level wizard (even an optimized one) only takes a lucky hit. You can stack the odds in your favor but it's not exactly a great accomplishment.

How do you plan to expand on your build? How will you deal with Glitterdust? Solid Fog? Summoned Monsters? All the other BFC, Debuffs and whatever other stuff a wizard gets as levels increase?

A high HP ranged attacker works pretty well at first level. Once the wizard gets 3rd level spells you quickly become a non-threat unless you have other tricks up your sleeve though.

[dextercorvia]

immune to sleep thanks to willing deformity madness, still no defense vs a fell drain sonic snap though


OP Stated example build was immune to mind affecting.

OP also stated it could absorb one negative level. The Heart of the Nabassu feat lets you do that.

Woops, teach me to skim. It does defeat the usual first level tricks.

[Lord Haart]

Edit: Sorry, nevermind, derped here. Congratulations.

[Zanos]

Speaking of usual first-level tricks: since i see no Initiative bonus (outside of minimum of +2 from Dexterity), there is no reason to think the Slayer will win initiative most of the time, and if he does, the rare wizard who hasn't banned Enchantment has just one word. A pretty powerful word, though.

Pain.

(well, maybe two, if he's unlucky with duration/damage rolls. 22+Con HP is enough to absorb four rounds of 1d6/round, but not enough to reduce average number of rounds below ten — which is exactly the kind of situation this low-level killer-of-highish-CR-colo-monsters spell is worth preparing for.)
Immune.
To.
Mind.
Effecting.

[Brookshw]

Bwah! and the fallout from the last mage slayer thread still isn't over.......

[arkangel111]

Now for the challenge...
at level 1 anyone can kill a mage with pure luck. what about level 5? 10? 15? 20?
with standard wealth by level what would a Mundane mageslayer actually have to look like at those levels?

[Vaz]

Wizards exist past 1st level.

[Azoth]

At level 20 a mundane isn't killing a wizard without spellcasting. You can sink a ton of wbl into toys to bypass a fair number of wiz tricks but you can't stop them all.

Even if you gain the advantage in a fight all the playground will say is "Congrats...you beat an astral projection". So getting into mageslayer debates here is pointless.

You have no leg to stand on because if you beat a build that uses incantrix and initiate of the seven fold veil...they jump in and say you lose to a red wizard who chained leadership through a dominated npc to circle magic a spell to infinite casterlevel and spell level so you lose.

We get it! Mundanes can't be cool. Mundanes can't ever beat a caster. Can we stop the raising and beating of dead horses already?

[Zanos]

Bwah! and the fallout from the last mage slayer thread still isn't over.......
Yeah, but I think this is a pretty solid level 1 build to deal with most common and many uncommon wizard tricks. The divide between mundanes and spellcasters still exists at level 1, but it's much smaller and easier to work with.

Making anything that can reliably kill a 20th level caster without it's own 9th level casting is impossible unless it's replicating the same effects through items or some other trick. The other thread you're referring to was only such a mess because the proposed build was bad, even if it wasn't against spellcasters.

[DMVerdandi]

Riddle me this, why would a wizard even leave where he's getting trained at level 1? Seriously.
That is like an apprentice leaving unsupervised to do work. Nah.

Not only wouldn't I start a campaign at level 1, but only through force do I see something like that even happening.

If level one is someone who has taken a class, and level 20 is someone who has a master's degree, why would someone who is level 1 leave school trying to get work in that chosen field.

Perhaps it is a syndrome of playing too many video games, but fighting monsters isn't the only way of gaining experience. It just DOES give you experience. I wouldn't leave without journeyman status (about level 5).


So having a level one mage killer is kind of... IDK.
Really, it's the game's fault for making it seem like life is even viable for a level 1 character to survive. Without the hand of god(DM), it doesn't even make sense that they Players aren't immediately being attacked by strong monsters, right out the gate, or that the cities aren't rife with monsters and have taken over the Humanoid population.

but whatever...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Level 20 isn't a master's degree. It's a legendary hero that is known throughout the world and spawns stories and songs that are still told millenia later. Try something like level 5-6.
Level 1 is someone who has basic training in his chosen craft. Since most campaign worlds are medieval education costs money.

Unless you're a noble you'll have to go out and earn money to learn more. Not that there aren't safer options than adventuring, but nobody wants to rp a bunch of librarians or farmers.
That, and adventuring is the "get rich quick" scheme of high fantasy. A single +1 weapon is worth more than most level 1 characters earn in a year, even without factoring living expenses.
You have a considerable chance of dying a painful dead (or worse), but that doesn't mean nobody will do it.

Also, even an army of level 1 warriors can kill a dragon. A 20 is an automatic hit. A few hundred level 1 warriors with crossbows can kill a dragon, as long as they get some support to get through its DR. Sure, there will be losses, but that's why nobody marches his armies to attack dragons. Defending your home city is something entirely different.

[Vaz]

An Army of NPC's in an average world where mundanes have any effect is about level 1-6 range, where level 6 is the limit of human capabilities (a human archer fighter 6 can probably hit 3 kill shots in the time it takes a Warrior 1 to do so, for example).

We have had the thread before where without magic, mundanes don't have a chance against Dragons. Magic equalizes it, but most Dragons outclass any sort of army, until the level where deploying an army is just not cost effective, and the 'supporters' might as well just kill it themselves without the army.

Without access to other PC classes, limited to Adepts or Magewrights for casting also limits them.

But that is irrelevant to the thread.

[Promises Kept]

Wasn't there a set of shenanigans that let a level 1 wizard cast a CL 7 Scorching Ray, or somesuch nonsense? 8d6 damage is going to wreak havoc on you, if the wizard manages two touch attacks. Shame I can't remember how it was done... I think the Spellgifted Trait was involved.

[dextercorvia]

Wasn't there a set of shenanigans that let a level 1 wizard cast a CL 7 Scorching Ray, or somesuch nonsense? 8d6 damage is going to wreak havoc on you, if the wizard manages two touch attacks. Shame I can't remember how it was done... I think the Spellgifted Trait was involved.

Human Fire Domain Wizard

Trait: Spellgifted (Evocation)
Flaw Feat 1: Bloodlines of Fire
Flaw Feat 2: Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray)
Human Feat: Fiery Burst
Level 1 Feat: Spell Thematics

You can cast Scorching Ray at CL 1(Wizard) +1 (Fire Domain) +1 (Spellgifted) +2 (Bloodlines of Fire) +1 (Fiery Burst) +1 (Spell Thematics) = 7, which means you auto pass your CL check, and fire two rays. If you assume a similar level of optimization to the fighter, you can start out at Moderate Taint for a bonus feat, and pick up Sudden Empower. That is two rays for 6d6 Fire damage, each, so an average of 23 per ray.

[Story]

A few hundred level 1 warriors with crossbows can kill a dragon, as long as they get some support to get through its DR.

Not if the Dragon has spellcasting. Or is a Mist Dragon.

[ryu]

A few hundred level 1 warriors with crossbows can kill a dragon, as long as they get some support to get through its DR.

Not if the Dragon has spellcasting. Or is a Mist Dragon.

Or just has a constant source of healing. No way in hell the army is dropping that dragon in one round relying on crits to hit.

[Story]

Heck, their crossbows are probably only doing 2d8 on a crit. If they go after a Young Adult, the DR5 will be dropping them to an average of 4.15 damage per crit. With 152HP for a YA Black Dragon, that's around 37 crits required to kill the dragon. And they might as well forgot about Mature Adults completely.

Meanwhile all the warriors will be completely useless until they pass DC 19 Will save. So 85-90% of the entire army is effectively wiped out just by the dragon entering battle.

[Lans]

Human Fire Domain Wizard

Trait: Spellgifted (Evocation)
Flaw Feat 1: Bloodlines of Fire
Flaw Feat 2: Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray)
Human Feat: Fiery Burst
Level 1 Feat: Spell Thematics

You can cast Scorching Ray at CL 1(Wizard) +1 (Fire Domain) +1 (Spellgifted) +2 (Bloodlines of Fire) +1 (Fiery Burst) +1 (Spell Thematics) = 7, which means you auto pass your CL check, and fire two rays. If you assume a similar level of optimization to the fighter, you can start out at Moderate Taint for a bonus feat, and pick up Sudden Empower. That is two rays for 6d6 Fire damage, each, so an average of 23 per ray.

Not quite sure how taint works, but the fighter could use it to get shape soulmeld to get flame cincture for fire resistance 10

[Shinken]

I just wanted to point out that by RAW you can't really evade ranged attacks with abrupt jaunt.
You don't target a square when you use a ranged attack, you target a creature. If that creature moves location but it's still within your range, your attack is still valid.

[Yael]

Another Ultimate Mage Slayer? I didn't catch the pun here.

Seriously, why is it so popular this lately killing a wizard, even at level 1st? I mean, it's all about who got the better initiative, heck if the Lv1st Barbarian rolls first, the Wizard is dead, if the Wizard opens instead, the Barbarian is pretty much locked, why all the hype? IMO, Level 1st PvP is all about who goes first at initiative, no optimization (except for an initiative-oriented wizard) can stop the Greataxe's average damage, if first, nor the Wizard's utility when preparing spells (maybe she has something against a posible Barbarian attack? You know, the usual.)

[Inevitability]

1. Be 1st level gray elf wizard with the following feats (2 flaws):

-Mercantile Background
-Precocious Apprentice (animate dead)
-Stitched Flesh Familiar

2. Pay 280 GP to let a 7th level wizard cast Wall of Salt for you. Sell the salt. Rinse, repeat.

3. Acquire a Stitched Flesh Raven.

4. Buy 175 GP worth of black onyx.

5. Pay someone to Dark Chaos Shuffle your racial weapon proficiencies to gain Iron Will and Reserves of Strength.

6. Find an adventuring party of 7th level (the aforementioned wizard may be a part of it)

7. Ask said adventuring party to go slay a Remorhaz for you and bring you to body. Offer them as much money as they want.

8. Animate the Remorhaz into a skeleton. Use Reserves of Strength to increase your caster level to 4.

9. Sic the skeleton at the Mage Slayer. We are looking at a Huge creature with 10 ft. reach, 20 ft. burrow speed, 45 HP, and it deals 2d8+12+8d6 damage on each hit. And 8d6 fire damage each time he's hit with an unarmed attack or natural weapon. And a chance to destroy all weapons that strike it.

If all else fails, you can still run away. Have Mount prepared and get the hell out of dodge at 300 ft. a round. Then find another town and start all over.

[Zanos]

2. Pay 280 GP to let a 7th level wizard cast Wall of Salt for you. Sell the salt. Rinse, repeat.
Why stop there? Just buy every magic item printed and kill him by dropping them on him from your flying fortress made of gold.

[dextercorvia]

Not quite sure how taint works, but the fighter could use it to get shape soulmeld to get flame cincture for fire resistance 10

Yeah, I wasn't proposing it to fight this guy, just answering the guy above me.

I actually think you have a pretty good build here. Even if you lose initiative, you have a decent chance of winning, since the mage is unlikely to know you are immune to mind-affecting or a negative level, and will likely lead off with one of those. I've been thinking about it, and I've been hard pressed to come up with a basic optimized wizard* who has better than even odds against your guy.

*By basic optimized wizard, I means something like I posted above, which is good all around, and not specifically optimized as an Anti Mage-Slayer.

[Randomguy]

...
2. Pay 280 GP to ...
...
4. Buy 175 GP worth of ...
...
5. Pay someone to ...
...
Offer them as much money as they want.
...


Yes, congratulations. You've found a way to kill an equal level character by completely ignoring WBL. It'd be more efficient to just buy a whip feather token.


The problem with this build is that it assumes a DM that will allow 3 flaws, when mostly the limit is 2. In any case, you could still win without using the above mentioned scorching ray trick: For your feats take Fell Drain (level 1), Skill focus (evocation) (human), and Metamagic Spell Focus (evocation) (from a flaw) and Toughness twice from 2 more flaws (because if they get 3 flaws, so do you, and it's nice to be able to survive a hit). Take the ACF that swaps Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative, and swap your familiar for abrupt jaunt. Prepare obscuring mist and 2 fell drain sonic snaps. (Alternatively, be an elf subrace that gets a +2 to intelligence and if you have high enough intelligence prepare Nerveskitter as well).

Cast obscuring mist in the first round and when you jaunt away from his first attack, go deeper into the mist so that he can't target you with the second javelin. Then walk back to where he is and hit him with a sonic snap. Rinse and repeat.


As a few others have mentioned: Nicely done. You've managed to counter all of the good low level wizard strategies in one build, even if it did take you an extra feat to do it.

[dextercorvia]

The first post isn't clear, but he only took two flaws. The Elder Evil thing is less likely to fly at a table, but this is a theoretical build.

Azurin Bonus Rage Claws
Level 1 TWF
Fighter 1 (Swapped for Dex to damage
Flaw Heart of Nabassu
Flaw Deformity Madness
Elder Evil Willing Deformity

[Vaz]

1. Be 1st level gray elf wizard with the following feats (2 flaws):

-Mercantile Background
-Precocious Apprentice (animate dead)
-Stitched Flesh Familiar

2. Pay 280 GP to let a 7th level wizard cast Wall of Salt for you. Sell the salt. Rinse, repeat.

3. Acquire a Stitched Flesh Raven.

4. Buy 175 GP worth of black onyx.

5. Pay someone to Dark Chaos Shuffle your racial weapon proficiencies to gain Iron Will and Reserves of Strength.

6. Find an adventuring party of 7th level (the aforementioned wizard may be a part of it)

7. Ask said adventuring party to go slay a Remorhaz for you and bring you to body. Offer them as much money as they want.

8. Animate the Remorhaz into a skeleton. Use Reserves of Strength to increase your caster level to 4.

9. Sic the skeleton at the Mage Slayer. We are looking at a Huge creature with 10 ft. reach, 20 ft. burrow speed, 45 HP, and it deals 2d8+12+8d6 damage on each hit. And 8d6 fire damage each time he's hit with an unarmed attack or natural weapon. And a chance to destroy all weapons that strike it.

If all else fails, you can still run away. Have Mount prepared and get the hell out of dodge at 300 ft. a round. Then find another town and start all over.

Why pay a 7th level wizard to do anything? Just buy a partially charged wall of salt/ladders.

Alternatively, just do like any other wizard does, and stay in the shadow of their mentor wizard.

[Randomguy]

The first post isn't clear, but he only took two flaws. The Elder Evil thing is less likely to fly at a table, but this is a theoretical build.

Azurin Bonus Rage Claws
Level 1 TWF
Fighter 1 (Swapped for Dex to damage
Flaw Heart of Nabassu
Flaw Deformity Madness
Elder Evil Willing Deformity

Oh, I see now. I didn't realize you could get Willing Deformity from worshipping an Elder Evil. I missed that part. :smallredface:

[Darkweave31]

How does it handle wall of smoke?

[Inevitability]

Yes, congratulations. You've found a way to kill an equal level character by completely ignoring WBL. It'd be more efficient to just buy a whip feather token.

As I see it, the character in the original post is exploring the limits of what a 1st-level mundane character can do. I am simply exploring what a 1st-level wizard can do. Of course, it will involve breaking the game because wizards, but isn't that the point of this? To create a 1st-level wizard who can survive an attack from the aforementioned mundane?

[dextercorvia]

How does it handle wall of smoke?

Probably by walking around it, it is only a 10' square wall, not a cloud spell. I like Wall of Smoke, but it is much better for casting in narrow corridors, or rooms at higher levels. Also, with a range of close, it is a dicey answer.

[Zanos]

As I see it, the character in the original post is exploring the limits of what a 1st-level mundane character can do. I am simply exploring what a 1st-level wizard can do. Of course, it will involve breaking the game because wizards, but isn't that the point of this? To create a 1st-level wizard who can survive an attack from the aforementioned mundane?
At that point why not just make pun-pun?

Infinite WBL is considered such extreme cheese that it's not even allowed at Tippy's table.