[PF] Animal Skin (Su) hex questions

[Dalebert]

If you change into a raven, can you speak? Ravens appear to have the physical means to create speech along with some other birds.

Do you always have to wear the entire skin? So if you're a halfling, do you need to somehow find a way to wear a grizzly bearskin to turn into a grizzly? Can it be cut into pieces and layered? Could you even get away with wearing a piece sized for you, like basically a hooded cloak but cut off so it's not dragging the ground?

What are some of the best animals to take in terms of the most benefits, attacks, etc.? Forms for flying, swimming, spying, attacking, etc. How much can you get away with manipulating things as a very small monkey, for instance?

Could swear I had more questions but it's late and my brain is tired. Maybe they'll come to me later.

[Psyren]

If you change into a raven, can you speak? Ravens appear to have the physical means to create speech along with some other birds.

Ability to speak falls under "other" and is therefore a GM call: "The GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed."



Do you always have to wear the entire skin? So if you're a halfling, do you need to somehow find a way to wear a grizzly bearskin to turn into a grizzly? Can it be cut into pieces and layered? Could you even get away with wearing a piece sized for you, like basically a hooded cloak but cut off so it's not dragging the ground?

Nothing says you have to wear the entire pelt, or that it can't be cut up or otherwise reshaped.


What are some of the best animals to take in terms of the most benefits, attacks, etc.? Forms for flying, swimming, spying, attacking, etc. How much can you get away with manipulating things as a very small monkey, for instance?

Shapeshifting Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avbOKg848X3Z3dVpmdrpxtR__zan2jj_NzP0uZU9LTw/edit) (scroll to "Beast Shape II")

[Dalebert]

If a gravewalker possesses an undead and it's wearing an animal skin, can she use this hex to shift while in the undead creature's body? Let's say she possesses a bloody skeleton. A ghoul. If yes, would it still have undead traits or not? Would a bloody skeleton turn into the animal or the animal with the bloody skeleton template applied?

If she uses Marionette Possession (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/marionette-possession) or Magic Jar, could she shape shift in the recipient's body and then return to her own? If yes, could they stay in that form for the duration? If yes, would they be able to dismiss it or would only the witch be able to dismiss it early for them?

Is it weird that when I ask these questions, I picture Psyren squeezing the bridge of his nose and lightly groaning?

[Barstro]

This is an interesting Hex that results in so many questions that I ended up not getting it.

I don't know the RAW, but I believe you cannot Magic Jar into a body, use the Hex, and switch back. I think the Hex would end when you change back.
1) Use Magic Jar to get into another's mind (fine)
2) Use Animal Skin Hex (Fine, you can use spells and supernatural powers)
3) Magic Jar away (Hmm. You used a supernatural ability that does not have a duration. It has one-minute intervals that can be renewed.)

Let's look at it this way; Can the Witch use Animal Skin again when she gets back to her own body? I think so. So what happens to the other creature? Does it get to keep the form for up to another minute? Does it lose the form when the Witch uses Animal Skin again? Or does it lose the form when the Witch's mind leaves its body?

I think losing the form when the Witch's mind leaves the body results in the fewest complications, and is the correct answer.

[Dalebert]

3) Magic Jar away (Hmm. You used a supernatural ability that does not have a duration. It has one-minute intervals that can be renewed.)

Where does it say that? There are specific hexes that are described as having 1 min interval uses. This isn't one of them. Presumably by RAW, it has the same duration as Beast Shape II, i.e. 1 min/level which can be renewed by another use of the hex. Of course, it says it's "similar to" which leaves room for interpretation. A DM could reasonably interpret that as having unlimited duration. If so, I would also see it as a reasonable interpretation that the hex ends as soon as she leaves that body. One could also interpret it as unlimited casting of the spell in which case it lasts 1 min / level. The latter is probably a bit more in line with RAW, I would think, just based on the short description of the hex. FWIW, I'm a fan of taking the most reasonable interpretation over the RAW and I'm leery of attempting things that I would be upset about if someone did them in my game because my general policy is never to argue for anything that I wouldn't also allow in my own games.

You have no thoughts on how this affects an undead body?

[Psyren]

If a gravewalker possesses an undead and it's wearing an animal skin, can she use this hex to shift while in the undead creature's body? Let's say she possesses a bloody skeleton. A ghoul. If yes, would it still have undead traits or not? Would a bloody skeleton turn into the animal or the animal with the bloody skeleton template applied?

If she uses Marionette Possession (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/marionette-possession) or Magic Jar, could she shape shift in the recipient's body and then return to her own? If yes, could they stay in that form for the duration? If yes, would they be able to dismiss it or would only the witch be able to dismiss it early for them?

Unfortunately, there's no RAW answer to any of these since magic jar is so poorly defined, and supernatural abilities that require material components even less so. It'll all come down to your DM.

Personally I wouldn't let you throw animal skins on all and sundry to shapeshift them - only you, the witch, in your original body would be able to do that.


Is it weird that when I ask these questions, I picture Psyren squeezing the bridge of his nose and lightly groaning?

It's more of an aimless shrug really.

[Dalebert]

It's more of an aimless shrug really.

"Meh. That dood is some other DM's problem."

[Barstro]

Where does it say that? There are specific hexes that are described as having 1 min interval uses. This isn't one of them. Presumably by RAW, it has the same duration as Beast Shape II, i.e. 1 min/level which can be renewed by another use of the hex. Of course, it says it's "similar to" which leaves room for interpretation.

You are correct. I'd managed to forget what, precisely, my issues were with the Hex.

I still stand by my earlier thoughts, though (ignoring the one minute increment). If you can break the Hex by Magic Jaring into the bodies of all your friends and freely allowing them to benefit from being large animals, then it shouldn't work that way.


You have no thoughts on how this affects an undead body?
I see nothing in RAW to suggest that it cannot. A Witch can be undead. The Hex simply allows the Witch to assume the form of the skin she is wearing. Or the small scrap of skin if your DM allows.

I'm not well versed in Beast Shape, since I never went with the Hex. My thought is that you lose the Undead Traits, since you are taking on the form of a living creature. Now, if you wear the skin of an undead animal, you can go to town. If Animal Skin basically allows the Witch to use her mental abilities in the form of an animal, I don't see why she should get greater powers by putting her mind into another body first and then get her mental abilities in the form of an animal.

Poorly worded Hex that leaves so many questions unanswered. It's as if Paizo doesn't have 20 people on their payroll to figure out how each new thing is broken before rules go to print.

[Psyren]

It's as if Paizo doesn't have 20 people on their payroll to figure out how each new thing is broken before rules go to print.

If people actively try to break things, then all the staff in the world won't stop them. At some point you do need a DM to step in and say no if a system is sufficiently complex.

[Yanisa]

I see nothing in RAW to suggest that it cannot. A Witch can be undead. The Hex simply allows the Witch to assume the form of the skin she is wearing. Or the small scrap of skin if your DM allows.

I'm not well versed in Beast Shape, since I never went with the Hex. My thought is that you lose the Undead Traits, since you are taking on the form of a living creature.

From the long winded Polymorph description (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph).

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

Now you got to argue which ability depend on being an undead form and which not. :smalltongue:

[Barstro]

If people actively try to break things, then all the staff in the world won't stop them. At some point you do need a DM to step in and say no if a system is sufficiently complex.

True. But much of it can be curbed by a little thought and explanation.

As written, this Hex basically turns a Level 4 spell into an at-will ability. Dalebert is using a spell from the Core Rule Book to potentially giving that at-will ability to two people every minute (standard action to possess, use Hex, leave). You don't even need Tippy to destroy this thing.

[Psyren]

True. But much of it can be curbed by a little thought and explanation.

As written, this Hex basically turns a Level 4 spell into an at-will ability. Dalebert is using a spell from the Core Rule Book to potentially giving that at-will ability to two people every minute (standard action to possess, use Hex, leave). You don't even need Tippy to destroy this thing.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it. If the shapeshifting ability goes with your soul, why would it stay in the body you've left? And if it doesn't go with you, how are you giving it to a second body to begin with?

Again, it should be no surprise that things break if you deliberately interpret them in a broken way. It's just common sense.

[Dalebert]

As written, this Hex basically turns a Level 4 spell into an at-will ability.

So? That's kind of the thing with hexes. They're mostly at-will or nearly so. If you have a beef with that, then you have a beef with the whole class.


You're trying to have your cake and eat it. If the shapeshifting ability goes with your soul, why would it stay in the body you've left? And if it doesn't go with you, how are you giving it to a second body to begin with?

I'm inclined to see this as the most reasonable take. It's either/or. Since most of a character's abilities (as long as they don't depend on the physical body, like you need arms and the ability to speak to cast spells) go with them, I would say this does too, but that means it doesn't linger around after she goes "home". That's how I'll probably handle it in my games if it ever comes up. I'll probably also therefore treat it essentially as unlimited duration. She can stay in a form as long as she wants.