[3.5] Of Kobolds and CR

[Thurbane]

I asked this question in the Q&A thread, but no responses.

The CR of a Kobold with NPC class levels is class levels -3. So a Kobold Adept 4 is CR 1.

So, by RAW, is a Kobold Fighter 1/Adept 3 CR1, or CR 4?

Cheers - T

[jiriku]

If an adept 4 is CR 1, then an adept 3 is somewhere in the neighborhood of CR 1/2. Adding a level of fighter would get you back up to CR 1. By RAW. But recall, the CR system is a guide, and a DM is instructed to manually adjust the CR if the formulas generate an inappropriate result.

Me, I'd say that's probably a its a CR 2 monster. Elite array, small size, bonus feats, couple of spells. Feels like CR 2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's subject to interpretation.
"Kobolds with [nothing but] levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3."
"Kobolds with [any] levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3."
"Kobolds with levels in [non-]NPC classes [don't] have a CR equal to their character level -3."

A Kobold Aristocrat 5 with the Vampire template is CR 4. A Kobold Warrior 1 with Dragonwrought, Dracolich, and venerable age with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is a CR 1 opponent by RAW. Obviously these are not appropriate challenges for those levels and a DM needs to adjust their CR to compensate.

If you want to make a CR 1 Kobold Adept 3/ Fighter 1, then switch that Fighter level to Warrior and you're solid within the RAW.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, just a general musing really.

I didn't specifically want to throw a Kobold Fighter/Adept at the party, just wondering how the rules would be interpreted.

It's pretty easy to "break" CR, especially with things like "non-associated class levels". A Minotaur Cleric 6 (BAB +10, HD 12d8+[12* Con mod], etc.) is probably worth more than CR 7.

Not to mention things like "that damn crab" and the Adamantine Clockwork Horror.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, just a general musing really.

I didn't specifically want to throw a Kobold Fighter/Adept at the party, just wondering how the rules would be interpreted.

It's pretty easy to "break" CR, especially with things like "non-associated class levels". A Minotaur Cleric 6 (BAB +10, HD 12d8+[12* Con mod], etc.) is probably worth more than CR 7.

Not to mention things like "that damn crab" and the Adamantine Clockwork Horror.

A Dragonkin Sorcerer 8 is CR 7, and it has seven monstrous humanoid HD with some amazing ability scores, natural armor, natural attacks, and flight.

[Thurbane]

Looking at a bunch of sample NPCs from various official books, seems like when you mix PC class levels and NPC class levels, you still apply the -1 CR modifier that goes with NPC classes. The question now is if that still applies for the special rule for Kobolds.

Either way, yes, CR is definitely a guideline and not a hard and fast rule...

[Vhaidara]

Pun-Pun is CR1, isn't he?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pun-Pun is CR1, isn't he?

I'm pretty sure he gets infinite hit dice, and any type of additional HD increases a creature's CR. Even if it's only +1 CR per +4 HD, 1/4 of an infinite number is still another infinite number.

[Chronos]

Pun-Pun can have infinite HD if he wants them, but he doesn't have to.

And even before mixing in other classes, that kobold adept 4 (with the right spells) is a guaranteed TPK for a first-level party, and a pretty likely one even for a 2nd.

[Agincourt]

And even before mixing in other classes, that kobold adept 4 (with the right spells) is a guaranteed TPK for a first-level party, and a pretty likely one even for a 2nd.

Guaranteed? Maybe against a low-optimization first level party. Otherwise, I'm just not seeing it. An Adept 4 will have 0 2nd level spells and 2 1st level spells, plus the bonus spells for high wisdom. If that first level party insists on grouping together so that they are subject to area effects, I could see the adept winning. Otherwise, the action economy should favor the first level party.

[Fouredged Sword]

I choose to read the line as "Ignore the first three levels of NPC classes when calculating the CR of a Kobold."

Thus, a Kobold fighter 1 / Adept 3 is a CR 1 encounter. He has horrid stats for a fighter, even using the elite array (Str 11, Dex 16, Con 12, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 9). He has 10+3d6+3hp, so average in the ballpark of 24. He has +2 bab, and +3, +1, +3 for saves. He has 2 first level spells from a very fixed list.

Really, that is a fairly good CR 1 encounter. He may be a little tough due to his HP, but it's a kobold. Encountered alone and fought in a fairly straight forward manner, it is a nice CR 1 encounter likely to last more than 1 round and yet not kill a party member.

Of that 1st level spell list, the only multi-target offensive spells are burning hands and sleep. Burning hands is somewhat dangerous (3d4 damage is a lot at 1st level), but unlikely to outright kill the party fighter if he chooses to tank it really short range so unlikely to hit the squishier casters. The save is a weak Reflex DC 12 for half, so even the fighter is likely to save half the time if he didn't dump dex. Sleep is again, a low DC 12 save. Yes, if the party is bunched up it could pose a problem, but the party cleric has a +6 will save. If you get really unlucky, the party could TPK. Also not a problem a level 1 adept wouldn't also pose (SOD is a game mechanic issue, not a class issue). You would have to hit all 4 to make it stick, as if even 1 remains awake, he will immediately start waking others.

[Chronos]

Guaranteed? Maybe against a low-optimization first level party. Otherwise, I'm just not seeing it. An Adept 4 will have 0 2nd level spells and 2 1st level spells, plus the bonus spells for high wisdom.
Assuming that the adept's highest score is in wisdom, it'll have that bonus spell at 1st and 2nd. It's likely to get surprise and/or win initiative, due to kobolds' size and dex. If it does, it can lead off with a Web, which will completely neutralize the party. It can then summon a monster or two into the web to soften up the party, and then once the monster durations have expired, shoot in a Burning Hands for 6d4 to finish them off.

[Agincourt]

Assuming that the adept's highest score is in wisdom, it'll have that bonus spell at 1st and 2nd. It's likely to get surprise and/or win initiative, due to kobolds' size and dex. If it does, it can lead off with a Web, which will completely neutralize the party. It can then summon a monster or two into the web to soften up the party, and then once the monster durations have expired, shoot in a Burning Hands for 6d4 to finish them off.

If you're facing a low-optimization first level party, yes, I think that chances of opening with a Web attack and winning are fairly high. The Adept does not have Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally on its spell list so I have no idea what he is summoning to soften the party up, but I don't really see how that would be particularly effective since whatever is summoned will be equally hampered by the Web. Burning Hands is a 15 foot cone. The chances of everyone being in range on the fourth round of combat are remote, even against a low optimization party.

You've said nothing about the party they're facing and just hand-wand waived away any possibility of anyone spotting the Adept lying in ambush, beating the Adept in initiative, or escaping the area of the Web. A party of four has four opportunities for all of the above, and a high op party will have ways to get out of the area of the Web. I believe Abrupt Jaunt is the ability of choice for Schrodinger's Wizard, but even assuming our high-op wizard doesn't have that, he should have concentration maxed and be able to throw something back at the Adept before the 4th round of combat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, said Kobold has something like 20hp. So the party is entangled and can't move. They can still attack with ranged weapons. Yes, the -6 penalty hurts, but the fighter and rogue are not prevented from drawing crossbows and going to town. Even at a stiff penalty, 4 crossbow bolts a round are dangerous. The fighter may do better with a sling. Ether way, damage is likely and he can't take many hits.

The kobold can't get close or suffer the web himself, so he is stuck shooting a crossbow as well, but he lacks armor or even mage armor, so his defense is basically 10+dex, so 13 at best.

Yeah, he is a tough encounter, but that is 2nd level spells for you.

[Chronos]

Well, the party certainly isn't going to be able to ambush the kobold, given that it has darkvision but they probably need to rely on light sources. Web has a range of over twice the illumination range of a torch, and longer even than a bullseye lantern. And they're not going to be able to attack it with ranged weapons, even at a penalty, if it centers the area of Web in front of the party, since it provides total cover.

I'd forgotten that Adepts don't have Summon Monster, though. OK, drop that out of the plan, and replace it with a couple of Sleep spells, or other first-level spell of your choice.

The party is highly likely to be grouped together enough to all be caught in the Web, because at first level, not grouping together is suicidal against anything other than a kobold adept.

The kobold will have to enter the webbed area in order to catch the party in the Burning Hands, and if the players are clever and awake, they can ready actions to attack it then (with cover and entanglement penalties). But one round of attacks plus 2d4 damage from the web burning is unlikely to kill the kobold. And there's no reason for the kobold to not be wearing at least leather armor, or possibly masterwork studded leather.

[bjoern]

Also, said Kobold has something like 20hp. So the party is entangled and can't move. They can still attack with ranged weapons. Yes, the -6 penalty hurts, but the fighter and rogue are not prevented from drawing crossbows and going to town. Even at a stiff penalty, 4 crossbow bolts a round are dangerous. The fighter may do better with a sling. Ether way, damage is likely and he can't take many hits.

The kobold can't get close or suffer the web himself, so he is stuck shooting a crossbow as well, but he lacks armor or even mage armor, so his defense is basically 10+dex, so 13 at best.

Yeah, he is a tough encounter, but that is 2nd level spells for you.

His ac would be 10+dex+1(size)+1(NA)