Looking for damage sims

[PsyBomb]

Hello Playground!

In my efforts to help out with Ssalarn's awesome project to bring Incarnum to Pathfinder (called Akashic Mysteries, you can check the thread out HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349964-Dreamscarred-Press-Introduces-Akashic-Mysteries)), we have run into the point where fine-tuning balace in the goal. I'm running some theoretical damage calculations there, but what we need are checkpoints for comparison.

I'm no expert on building many of these classes, though, so I'm asking for help. I need to check at levels 6, 12, and 18 what damage out is possible. One of the three new classes is turning out to be a bit of a monster as a Natural Attack Pouncer, so I request either a good Pistolero or an Ubercharge build.

Ssalarn has asked to use Barbarian, Magus, and Inquisitor as baseline checkpoints as well. Can anyone help me out here?

[inertia709]

The Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?212964-PF-Pimp-my-Eidolon-Gundolon) is highest damage build I've seen in Pathfinder. Basically, you take the minimum number of Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger levels to get dexterity to damage, and take the rest of your levels in Synthesist Summoner. The best build would likely be a half-elf that also takes the Wild Caller Summoner archetype and takes extra evolution points as her favoured class bonus. Max out charisma since your PC's dexterity score is overridden by the eidolon's score, and activate the Mysterious Stranger's Focused Aim deed. Finally, make sure that the PC uses double barrelled pistols, rapid shot, multi-attack and deadly aim. This leads to a number of attacks equal to twice the number of arms you have (and you have a lot), plus two more with rapid shot, all touch attacks, and adding your charisma score, dexterity score, the deadly aim bonus and other more standard modifiers.

[grarrrg]

Is equipment a factor here? Or do we assume 'minimum competence'?
It's one thing to assume a "+1 Keen", it's another to allow "+5 Keen Flaming Bane Axiomatic, and I'm just happening to attack a Chaotic [Bane target] that's also vulnerable to Fire, and I paid to have it crafted so that's why it's below my WBL".


The Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?212964-PF-Pimp-my-Eidolon-Gundolon) is highest damage build I've seen in Pathfinder. Basically, you take the minimum number of Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger levels to get dexterity to damage, and take the rest of your levels in Synthesist Summoner. The best build would likely be a half-elf that also takes the Wild Caller Summoner archetype and takes extra evolution points as her favoured class bonus. Max out charisma since your PC's dexterity score is overridden by the eidolon's score, and activate the Mysterious Stranger's Focused Aim deed. Finally, make sure that the PC uses double barrelled pistols, rapid shot, multi-attack and deadly aim. This leads to a number of attacks equal to twice the number of arms you have (and you have a lot), plus two more with rapid shot, all touch attacks, and adding your charisma score, dexterity score, the deadly aim bonus and other more standard modifiers.

You'd have to run it twice, once with Mysterious 1/Trench Fighter 3 for DEX to damage, and again with only Mysterious 1, but MOAR ARM-GUNZ!

There's also the minor issue of Reloading if you're going to add in the Iteratives, but I suppose you could just drop one of the other guns as a Free.

Wild Caller also doesn't stack with Synthesist by RAW, as they 'both alter the Eidolon Feature'.



I've seen Pistolero builds using TWF-Double Barrels and Signature Deed applied to Up Close And Deadly for extra damage on every attack ever. It puts up good numbers.

[Ssalarn]

Is equipment a factor here? Or do we assume 'minimum competence'?
It's one thing to assume a "+1 Keen", it's another to allow "+5 Keen Flaming Bane Axiomatic, and I'm just happening to attack a Chaotic [Bane target] that's also vulnerable to Fire, and I paid to have it crafted so that's why it's below my WBL".


I'd like it to assume standard WBL, and generic weapons (not including things like Bane, unless we're talking about an Inquisitor). I'm worried the Daevic is spiking high a little early and might need his class features adjusted a bit.

[inertia709]

snip

It's good to get some feedback from the Gundolon's creator! You're right about the Wild Caller. I remembered a player playing a Synthesist + Wild Caller in one of my campaigns and therefore thought that it was legal, but I'd forgotten that allowing them to stack was a houserule. With regards to the two types of Gundolon builds: I had a suspicion that the Mysterious Stranger 1/Trench Fighter 3 build would eventually outdo the MORE DAKKA version, but that is admittedly just a suspicion. In fact, on second thought I postulate that the MORE DAKKA version will win at level 6, the Trench Fighter version will win at level 18, and I'm not sure, but leaning toward the Trench fighter at level 12.

[aethel27]

Magus at lvl 6, I'll post the build later but an elven kensai with the metmagic reducer traits and and focus on dex and int can do well, let me see....
18 dex (16+2 from race)
and 20 int(17+2 racial+1 lvl 4) at lvl 6 gets an ac of 19 plus whatever boosts he has from a belt of dex (should be at least plus 2 if not plus 4 belt and a ring of protection and amulet of armor so 19 no magic items -25 with a plus 2 nat and deflection and a casting of cats grace)

damage using weapon finesse and elven curved blade (18-20/x2) [two handed sword] is 1d10+2(arcanepoolpoint)+ 4-6 weapon finesse from dex bonus +2-3 from twohanded depending on dex stat+keen (another arcane pool point) for an attack of 1d10+8 to 1d10+11 with a crit range of 15-20/x2

now add in spell combat with an intensified empowered shocking grasp (lvl 2 spell) will do 1d10+11 on a crit range of 15-20 with a an added 9d6 from shocking grasp maximum non crit is 21 normal and 54 lightning for a total of 75 damage on a crit (spell crits off the weapon mind you) this does maximum of 150 damage at lvl 6.... with out a enchanted weapon probably should have at least +1 or +2 by then so 152-154 max on crit minimum on a hit is 12 regular and 9 lightning for 21 damage.
Non crit damage range 21-75 regular 22-76 +1 and 23-77 +2
Crit damage range 42-150 no magic weapon 44-152 +1 and 46-154 +2

in depth will be later once I have time to put together the build and such

[grarrrg]

For level 18+ games the Bigger Boat Eidolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245496-PF-We-re-gonna-need-a-bigger-boat) puts up crazy numbers.
Each of its Slams deals around 12d8+STR (depending on just how/what damage tables/interpretations are used this might be 12d10, or worse).
At level 19+ you can have SEVEN Slams.

Level 18
Half-Elf Wild Caller, taking Alt-Favored for +1/4 Evo point
Biped Base form (notable: Limbs(Arms), 16 STR)
36 Evo points (23 from levels, +4.5 from Half-Elf, +4.5 from Wild Caller, +4 Extra Evo Feat)
10 points for Huge
10 points for Limbs(Arms)
6 points for Slams (we are replacing the default Claws)
1 point Improved Damage (Slam)
8 points for +Ability > +8 STR
1 point for...umm...Reach?

Notable Summoner feats:
Extra Evolution x4

Notable Eidolon Feats:
Improved Natural Attack
Power Attack
Improved Critical (Slam)

Equipment:
Eidolon has +6 STR belt
Eidolon has Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (I'm lazy today, +5 is simple math)
Summoner has a Wand of Strong Jaw

Level 18 Eidolon
STR: 58 (16base+7levels+3ability increase(levels)+16huge+8ability evo+2enlarge person+6belt)
Bab: 14
Power Attack is -4 / +8
Each attack does 12d8+37 damage, with a +39 to-hit (for Slam damage calculation see linked post above, the '+' is STR +24, Power Attack +8, and Amulet of Mighty Fists +5)
91 damage per attack on average.
There are 6 attacks on a Full Attack, all at Full Bab
6 * 91 = 546 damage per round.
Slam has a Crit of 19-20/x2, meaning we should Crit roughly 2 out of 3 rounds.
Average damage of around ~600 per round factoring in Crit-chance

Room for improvement:
MORE GEAR!
BETTER GEAR!
MORE SPELLS!
MORE FEATS!
MORE LEVELS! (AND A 7TH SLAM!)

[Snowbluff]

Before missing, my samsaran cleric archer does 600 before counting Str, enhancements, buffing spells. Greater named bullet gives you x2 CL, Saddle Surge gives x1, and Litany of Righteousness doubles both of those (including other damage). BAB + Manyshot gives 5 attacks. 6 attacks for having a haste style effect give 720. Being mounted on something fast lets you full attack something within your touch attack range easily.

Cleric is a good chassis for this for the full casting, good aura, Evangelist (for bardic music), and Animal Domain for a free mount.

Room for improvement? Arcane Archer 2 will let you get another shot with Litany of Righteousnes for x3 CL, adding 60 damage. If you're not interested in having full casting, you can probably be a Sohei for Flurry + Manyshot for more attacks. That's 16 BAB (10 from cleric, 6 from flurrying as a sixth level monk). 4 (BAB) + 2 (Rapid Manyshot) + 1 (speed or spell or something) + 1 flurry. THis would hurt your CL, though.

This would need adjustment for level 18, but you get the idea.

[aethel27]

How high level of cheese are we allowed to input cause with some minor optimisation through some odd feats the magus can become rapidly OP

a human dervish dancing blade bound kensai magus with that nifty new math feat that gives two Metamagics via proving to the universe that 2+2 does in fact equal fish. (Sacred Geometry)

lvl 6 with a a +4 scimitar keen (+2 from blackblade, +2 from arcane point, keen from arcanepoint) weapon finesse and a intensified empowered maximized shocking grasp (empowered and maximized from sacred geometry) does about 1d6+11(4(magic)+5(dex)+2(twohanded)+6d6(maximized) *150% [empowered meta magic] with the for damage between 12-17 normal and 54 shocking for a total of 66-71 a hit,

on a crit (threat range of 15-20) this ranges from 132-142 damage...

chance to hit is 4(bab)+5(dex from weapon finesse)+4(magic)+1(weapon focus from kensai)=+14 to hit at level 6
minimum AC for the crit to miss is 30 typical seen with CR 17 creatures.
Lvl 1 feat weapon finesse
level 1 bonus feat intensified meta magic
Lvl 3 feat dervish dance
lvl 5 sacred geometry (empowered and maximized)
lvl 5 bonus critical mind

[Ssalarn]

Just kind of looking for a baseline of "these are the guys who hit hard, and this is how hard they hit" so we can establish if we're hitting a little too hard with the Daevic. Ideally a Daevic of moderate optimization should be dealing right around 70% of the damage his high op counterparts are dishing out, and I think we're closer to 90-100%.

[aethel27]

eh I havent gone full cheese and is this for level 6? I can write up a level 18 version of teh magus to compare, just out of curiosity how much damage is the daevic doing regularly?

[grarrrg]

+6d8(maximized)[calculating mind changes a number of d6 to d8sequal to your knowledge engineering]

Calculating Mind only lets you mess with the dice rolled for Sacred Geometry.
As for the actual spell effects, you are stuck with whatever that spell uses.

[aethel27]

thank you for catching that forgot the name of that feat :smallredface: I listed it as the nifty feat that says 2+2 does in fact = fish but I'll edit the post to make it clearer.

[PsyBomb]

For reference, the build in question is a natural-attack pouncer. It deals 83 average off a successful Bull Rush at level 6, once WBL applies (usually a bit less, we are talking about a 6-attack routine so misses are statistical near-certainty).

The damage can be pushed higher (2d8+2d6+3d4+58+6d6(elec) for 102.5 avg) if I really focus in and don't care about accuracy as much as damage.

[avr]

Well, a human inquisitor 6 with the Chivalry inquisition for a mount & a +1 spell storing lance might deal damage like this on a charge (after 1 round & a swift action buffing):

(1d8 [lance]
+9 [strength, including +2 belt & lance used 2H]
+1 [enhancement]
+2 [morale via wrath spell]
+3 [destruction judgement]
+6 [power attack w/2H weapon]
+2 [bane enhancement]) *3 from spirited charge = 3d8 +66
+2d6 (bane)
+2d8+6, Will save for half (Inflict Moderate Wounds stored in weapon)

Plus of course a bite from the horse for 1d4+4. 1d4+8 if it uses Power Attack too.

An average of 104.5 if both attacks hit and the target makes their will save which they probably would.

An Inquisitor 12 might be looking at

(1d8 [lance]
+13 [strength, including +6 belt & lance used 2H]
+3 [enhancement]
+4 [luck via divine power spell]
+5 [destruction judgement]
+9 [power attack w/2H weapon]
+2 [bane enhancement]) *3 from spirited charge = 3d8 +108
+4d6 (greater bane)
+3d8+12 Will save for half (Inflict Serious Wounds stored in weapon)

The horse now gets the benefit of the destruction judgement too - 1d4+13

Average 164 on the same assumptions. Not a high point.

Inquisitor 18? Way out of my comfort zone. Someone else can surely do better me here.

Note that Mounted Skirmisher came online at level 15 so this is now a pouncer. Better late than never.

(1d8 [lance]
+15 [strength, including +6 belt & lance used 2H]
+5 [enhancement]
+6 [luck via divine power spell]
+8 [destruction judgement, slayer]
+12 [power attack w/2H weapon]
+2 [bane enhancement]) *3 from spirited charge, 3 more attacks without multiplier counting divine power = 6d8 +288 if all hit.
+4d6 (greater bane)*4

The horse can chip in with 1d4+16 or so.

You can't make the same assumptions so I'm not sure how you'd work average damage in this case.