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Bladesong
2007-03-03, 06:11 PM
Greeting fellow gamers,

We quite recently restarted a longruning campaing in 3.5 ruleset, having previously played heavely modified 2nd ed. We currently have a party around 11th level and were trying the rules without any changes but most splatbooks allowed.

The problem (well the main problem)we have at the moment is the druids sumon natures ally spell. the creatures summoned by this spell seem incredably powerfull, especialy when you compare them to our main fighter, a warblade 11 who is starting to feel a little like a torch bearer rather than a legendary warrior.

O.K they only last 11 rounds, and a pro evil or dispel will deal with them, but baring these effects, they are just destroying everything we fight.

eg, we just fought Casgoroth on the moonshae isles, intended to be a big challenge with potential for TPK, one earth elemental from a 6th level summoning spell fought him to a standstill (although our mage helped with some fog effects) meanwhile the warblade almost died after being swallowed hole on the second round.

What are we doing wrong?

Is natures ally that good?

cupkeyk
2007-03-03, 06:16 PM
Zoomaster Druids will soon find out that they are out of high level spells. I think you let them rest way too much by not imposing a time penalty for dillydallying with all that resting.

goat
2007-03-03, 06:20 PM
Well, at least he summoned something rather than just tanking it himself...

ken-do-nim
2007-03-03, 06:20 PM
Yeah, the fact that druids via summon nature's ally get huge & greater elementals a spell level earlier than clerics & wizards do via summon monster does tend to break things. No 11th level character should be able to summon a 152 hp dr 5/- earth elemental with power attack, cleave, etc. One easy fix is simply to move huge & greater elementals up a spell level to summon nature's ally VII and VIII. Are any of the other summon choices causing problems?

ken-do-nim
2007-03-03, 06:22 PM
Zoomaster Druids will soon find out that they are out of high level spells. I think you let them rest way too much by not imposing a time penalty for dillydallying with all that resting.

Assuming the druid isn't facing an enemy spellcaster with protection from evil or dispel magic, what better use of a 6th level spell does the druid have than summoning a huge elemental? (Esp. if the druid has augment summoning).

cupkeyk
2007-03-03, 06:28 PM
Assuming the druid isn't facing an enemy spellcaster with protection from evil or dispel magic, what better use of a 6th level spell does the druid have than summoning a huge elemental? (Esp. if the druid has augment summoning).

Which s why it is always a good idea to have a mini-BEG to draw out the power before releasing the BBEG on a less than optimal party.

goat
2007-03-03, 06:31 PM
Only if you're attempting to TPK them, or your BBEG isn't actually all that B or B.

cupkeyk
2007-03-03, 06:36 PM
The tank is a Warblade, he can regain all his maneuvers almost instantly. There is still a wizard and a cleric. That's a pretty powerful party that should be able to handle two full powered BBEGs one after the other.

Bladesong
2007-03-03, 07:31 PM
Thanks guys, we have been going through a stage of one or two encounters per day, which has made spellcasters more powerfull than they would be and hopefully wont always be the case.

The only summoned creature we had issue with was the huge elemental with over 300 hp doing more damage than the elder mountan hammering warblade every round, with a better attack roll and and DR 10/- to boot, not to mention that because he was huge, he couldnt be swallowed, easly grappled or bullrushed etc.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-03, 08:20 PM
Man, what?

Your Warblade must be really poorly built. Without something like Greenbound Summoning, a Martial Adept should be a better tank than an elemental any day.

The_Snark
2007-03-03, 08:39 PM
The only summoned creature we had issue with was the huge elemental with over 300 hp doing more damage than the elder mountan hammering warblade every round, with a better attack roll and and DR 10/- to boot, not to mention that because he was huge, he couldnt be swallowed, easly grappled or bullrushed etc.

Were you accidentally using the stats for a greater elemental or something...? The Huge elemental only has 150 hp, DR 5/-, and an attack bonus that a level 11 melee character can match without too much difficulty. I can't compare damage, because I'm not familiar with Tome of Battle, but the elemental does do a lot of damage. They're nothing to laugh at, sure, but they shouldn't be that good.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-03, 10:08 PM
Were you accidentally using the stats for a greater elemental or something...? The Huge elemental only has 150 hp, DR 5/-, and an attack bonus that a level 11 melee character can match without too much difficulty. I can't compare damage, because I'm not familiar with Tome of Battle, but the elemental does do a lot of damage. They're nothing to laugh at, sure, but they shouldn't be that good.

The mistake is worse than that. An elder earth elemental (summon nature's ally IX) has 228 hit points, and with augment summoning it has 276 hit points. Over 300 hit points? Oi vaye.

Bladesong
2007-03-04, 05:42 AM
having just checked, it appears that yes, we were using the wrong elemental, and the HP make no sense at all. I'll take the druid to task!

edit: spell is summon greater elemental from Planar Handbook.

Yahzi
2007-03-04, 12:18 PM
having just checked, it appears that yes, we were using the wrong elemental, and the HP make no sense at all. I'll take the druid to task!
That's like buying a candy bar with a $5.... and getting back change for a $20.

Bad druid! Bad!

:smallbiggrin:

Marouba
2007-03-05, 04:44 AM
I am the druid in question, the spell used on this occasion was Summon Greater Elemental, this is balanced by the need to concentrate to keep the spell going. Mostly it's just the huge ones that are summoned but even they seem to outdo our warblade....

Note they aren't summoned every fight by any means but when they are they do tend to make the melee characters seem a little redundant :smallconfused:

Quietus
2007-03-05, 04:55 AM
What book is this spell from? And why are the elementals from Summon Nature's Ally not enough? Stop using the spell if it's a problem, I mean really...

Thomas
2007-03-05, 05:24 AM
Planar Handbook. It summons a greater elemental, which have... 199 hit points on average. CR 9. Not all that impressive.

Quietus
2007-03-05, 05:34 AM
So where'd this 300 HP number come from? And how's its stats better than a PC's?

Someone's fudging something, somewhere.

Rain_Dancer
2007-03-05, 06:41 PM
Planar Handbook. It summons a greater elemental, which have... 199 hit points on average. CR 9. Not all that impressive.
The spell's in the Spell Compendium, too. Although a greater elemental does indeed have DR 10/- and a decent attack bonus, their AC is meh and their hp is definitely way below 300.

It seems a bit strange that they're able to outdo a level 11 warblade with Stone Dragon maneuvers. Not completely impossible, with poor dice rolls, but a bit strange. I'm not calling fudging, but maybe a stat block check is in order for both the elemental and the warblade?

ken-do-nim
2007-03-06, 10:49 AM
I am the druid in question, the spell used on this occasion was Summon Greater Elemental, this is balanced by the need to concentrate to keep the spell going. Mostly it's just the huge ones that are summoned but even they seem to outdo our warblade....

Note they aren't summoned every fight by any means but when they are they do tend to make the melee characters seem a little redundant :smallconfused:

Pick up the skill trick "swift concentration" from the Complete Scoundrel. Then the spell will *really* be unbalanced!

Marouba
2007-03-07, 04:40 AM
The spell's in the Spell Compendium, too. Although a greater elemental does indeed have DR 10/- and a decent attack bonus, their AC is meh and their hp is definitely way below 300.

It seems a bit strange that they're able to outdo a level 11 warblade with Stone Dragon maneuvers. Not completely impossible, with poor dice rolls, but a bit strange. I'm not calling fudging, but maybe a stat block check is in order for both the elemental and the warblade?

Having checked I think I did overdo the hitpoints, my fault just misreading the stats from the MM and taking the total for the bonus. This means it only has on average 241 hit points, but still it has DR10/- and does 2D10+12 with each slam with a +25 to hit. It still would have won the fight and still has the problem of being better than our Warblade...

Along with Cleave, Great Cleave and Power Attack it can do a huge amount of damage each round and takes a lot of killing.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-07, 05:25 AM
The warblade should still be able to outdamage it significantly ... even something simple like a pouncing charge while in the leading the charge stance.

Ethdred
2007-03-07, 06:28 AM
Having checked I think I did overdo the hitpoints, my fault just misreading the stats from the MM and taking the total for the bonus. This means it only has on average 241 hit points, but still it has DR10/- and does 2D10+12 with each slam with a +25 to hit. It still would have won the fight and still has the problem of being better than our Warblade...

Along with Cleave, Great Cleave and Power Attack it can do a huge amount of damage each round and takes a lot of killing.


SRD lists Greater Earth Elemental as having 2d8+105 for an average of 199 HP. And yes the attacks are good (though only +23), with PA, but it only gets 2 on a full attack. That's what summoned elementals are - basically mobile walls that can soak up a lot of damage and keep the enemy occupied for a couple of rounds, with the option of preventing/facilitating flanking. And adding an extra combatant, because that always helps, especially against one big thing.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-07, 06:32 AM
Augment summoning.