Psions - what am I in for?

[Macros]

Greetings, Playgrounders, I come to you solliciting once more your collective insight.

I am about to start running a sandbox campaign, with a strong fantasy-china flavour. The PCs will start in the employ of one ambitious warlord, but frankly, I'd be surprised if they haven't overthrown the guy by the end of the second session, first if they hurry. From there, it will be up to them.

Anyway, the campaign begins at lvl 12, and they have started to work on their characters. One of them decided to try his hand at building a psion. Now, I don't know much about psionics in 3.5, but I figured it was a good time to learn. I have some vague knowledge (power points, able to augment their powers, and generally considered tier 1), but besides that, I'm in unknown territories.

Now, I do not expect you to coach me on the details, but I'd like to have a vague idea of what I should expect. Keep in mind those players are usually rather low on the optimization pole, and the guy playing the psion is no exception. So far, the only detail I have is that he apparently found a way to consistently make weapon attacks against touch AC with a few bonus damage on top of that (which surprised me a bit, didn't think psions were too concerned about the physical side of things, but hey, fine with me).

Anyway, as the title indicate... what am I in for?

[Ellowryn]

Well, first, are you allowing psionics/spell transparency? (i.e. psionics is the same as spells)

Mostly though psionics allow you to customize your casting to the appropriate degree for any given encounter. If you fighting mooks you can spend only the minimum on powers, while against the BBEG you can ramp up the murder. Depending on the powers taken it allows an amazing degree of flexibility.

[Vhaidara]

FIRST RULE OF PSIONICS: CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER (INCLUDING AUGMENTS) THAN MANIFESTER LEVEL

Sorry, too many people miss that.

Actually, IIRC, psions are T2. The thing that hits T1/T0 is the Spell to Power Erudite, which has the ability to learn every spell on top of every power.

Psions only get up to 36 powers, compared to wizards who get 43+(Int mod at level 1) just from leveling. However, wizards also got the ability to spend some gold and get a new spell, which is what makes them fully T1. Psions are more like Sorcerers.

As far as what to expect, they nova a lot harder than casters. Because of augmenting, a first level power can, at level 20, deal 20d6. But, you're spending 20 PP, so it's more like manifesting a 9th with a few augments.

Metapsionics are weaker than metamagics because you have to expend psionic focus to activate them, which caps application at 1 (maybe 2 with the psicrystal containment feat)

Psicrystals are a feat, not a class feature.

[Red Fel]

Now, I do not expect you to coach me on the details, but I'd like to have a vague idea of what I should expect. Keep in mind those players are usually rather low on the optimization pole, and the guy playing the psion is no exception. So far, the only detail I have is that he apparently found a way to consistently make weapon attacks against touch AC with a few bonus damage on top of that (which surprised me a bit, didn't think psions were too concerned about the physical side of things, but hey, fine with me).

Anyway, as the title indicate... what am I in for?

Here's a short list of things to keep in mind about the Psion: The cardinal rule: You cannot spend more points on a power than your Manifester Level. This will become relevant, because... Augmenting: Unlike spells, powers do not scale automatically. However, many powers can be augmented - meaning that if a PC spends more power points on them, they become more powerful. As mentioned above, you cannot spend more points on a power than your Manifester Level. That's the upper limit. Keep that in mind. Nova: Psions have a unique capacity to go "nova." That is, unlike spellcasters, who can generally only cast a limited number of spells per round, and thus have a built-in budget on how much of their daily resource (prepared spells or spell slots) they can expend at once, a psion has the potential to burn off a massive amount of his daily points in a single shot. This generally comes with a massive damage spike. Keep in mind also that powers, with their ability to be augmented and their type adjusted, tend to be slightly better suited for blasting than many spells. You cannot spend more points on a power than your Manifester Level. I cannot mention this enough. Displays: Psionics are basically like spellcasting with the Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials, and Energy Substitution metamagic feats tossed on for free. That said, remember that they do have displays - some kind of cool special effect accompanying the power. A PC can dispense with the display by making a Concentration check. This is separate from the Concentration check made to cast defensively. Transparency: The default rule is one of psionics-magic transparency - that is, psionics are another form of magic, Spell Resistance and Power Resistance mean the same thing, antimagic fields and antipsionic fields are the same thing, and so forth. If you decide to dispense with this rule, and treat them as separate schools with separate resistances and so forth, you will be giving psionics a huge boost. Be clear with your players as to whether this rule is in play. Finally, you cannot spend more points on a power than your Manifester Level.
This information and more can be found on the SRD and in your book; this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) in particular can be a very effective quick-reference for general psionics rules.

[Macros]

Well, first, are you allowing psionics/spell transparency? (i.e. psionics is the same as spells)

I'm thinking of saying yes to this question, if only to spare me some headaches. So, unless someone here convinces me that it is a terrible idea, we'll go with that.


FIRST RULE OF PSIONICS: CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER (INCLUDING AUGMENTS) THAN MANIFESTER LEVEL

I'll make sure to keep that in mind. :smallsmile:

So, what I got from all this, is that I should expect a sorcerer on steroids when it comes to combat, but perhaps a bit more limited in a more social setting?

EDIT : thanks, Red Fel, for the additional informations. And the link should be useful. I guess that rule of 'no more PP than manifester levels' is often overlooked, huh? :smalltongue:

[Vhaidara]

It depends on how they build. If they go Kineticist, then yes, but Telepath is Enchanter (but good), Seer is like Diviner, Egoist is Transmutation, Nomad is teleport specialization, and Shaper is Conjuration. And they can all still pick outside of their discipline, but the disciplines get access to the best powers for the job

[Red Fel]

So, what I got from all this, is that I should expect a sorcerer on steroids when it comes to combat, but perhaps a bit more limited in a more social setting?

Well, first off, the Sorcerer is a Cha-based caster, whereas the Psion is an Int-based caster. So, yes, the Sorcerer is more immediately disposed towards social scenarios. That said, which Psion you get will substantially influence how it is played. A Sorcerer may choose different spells, but at its core it is a Sorcerer; a Psion can vary substantially depending on which discipline it takes.

Which raises an interesting and vital point: Psion disciplines are more like Cleric Domains than Wizard Specializations - you take one, and you gain access to additional powers.

Back on point, however, choice of discipline influences playstyle. A Telepath, for example, makes an excellent social butterfly, because many of his powers can be used for investigative or diplomatic purposes. Egoists, despite being built on a caster chassis, can make surprising melee combatants. And so forth. Note also that there are alternative class features for all six disciplines. (Found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) and here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a).) These generally boil down to trading one of the Psion's bonus feats for a neat ability.

Short version: A Psion will play much like a specialized Sorcerer with the capacity to go nova. But that specialization could be in any number of useful areas.

[Macros]

See, I didn't know about those specialization options, that's interesting. It sounds like a fun class to play, anyway. Since he mentioned a melee option, perhaps my player went with Egoist, I'll ask him next time I see him. I doubt he went as far as looking for ACF, but you never know.

[Red Fel]

See, I didn't know about those specialization options, that's interesting. It sounds like a fun class to play, anyway. Since he mentioned a melee option, perhaps my player went with Egoist, I'll ask him next time I see him. I doubt he went as far as looking for ACF, but you never know.

It's also possible that he went with the Psychic Warrior, which has a much narrower powers list and lacks disciplines, but is much more gish-y in design. (The PP - ML rule still applies.)

But yes. Very fun class, fun system, and it allows the players to bring some serious creativity to the table. Enjoy!

[Endarire]

Psion Buildguide and Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238)

[Grod_The_Giant]

On the subject of going nova-- it's not that you can do a "massive damage spike" (that still comes out to 1d6/level), it's that you can spend all your points casting max-level powers if you want to. Psions love short adventuring days, because they can cast a dozen 9th level powers and call it a day. They hate long days, because they need to be casting 9th level powers to be doing full damage.

For reference, your player is looking at the feat "Deep Impact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deepImpact)." Using it requires you to expend Psionic Focus, which takes either a full round or a move action (with a feat) to establish.

[Fouredged Sword]

Your psion is likely going to have more and better options than a sorcerer of equal level. Powers scale a lot better than spells, so those powers known he got at 1st level still are staples in combat at level 20. While a sorcerer needs 9 blasting spells to be able to cast one from any slot and to cover a variety of energy types, a Psion can take 1 with a nice augment and target selection and just go with it.

This means that a Psion can take a lot of nice utility powers and things that are useful in a variety of situations.

Also, know about psionic reformation. It will allow your player to redo his skills, powers known, and feats in a very short time frame. It is exp costly, so he shouldn't spam it, but he can probably dive into the books and get just the right power within an hour of game time, if pushed.

[Psyren]

Red Fel covered most of what I would say, but I wanted to emphasize two of the points he raised.

1) Displays - Psionics are still, silent and have no material components. This can make it very hard to "turn off" the psion, for example if the party is supposed to be taken prisoner, or being covert while casting. This is a pretty radical departture from regular spellcasting (removing all the components from that is possible, but tends to require much more resources to do.) It's still possible to challenge and even incarcerate a spellcaster under these conditions, but just keep in mind you will need extra planning - maybe the villains have antimagic/null psionics fields, or catapsi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catapsi.htm) fields, or antimagic shackles, or psionic restraints. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#psionicRestraints) Keep tools like that in your back pocket in case your villains need a way to temporarily neuter or neutralize a psion.

2) Nova - If you only have one or very few encounters per day, psionics will seem much more powerful than it really is. If a player does not have to conserve their power points and make them last, they can augment all their powers to maximum potential in the few fights that are left without running out prematurely. This is called "going nova" - effectively, it allows a psionic character to burn through their lower-level spell slots to fuel their higher-level ones. One of the balancing points of spellcasters is that their most powerful spells tend to also be the ones with the least uses per day; a psion with points to burn can get around this limitation easily.

The solutions here are either to try and make sure you're following the DMG guidelines on encounters per day (that is what the PP were based on) or, if your campaign is simply not built for 4-5 fights per session, you can either reduce their PP or stretch a single in-game day across multiple sessions. Either one will encourage players to conserve their points and not dump them all recklessly into a handful of spectacular attacks.

[Macros]

First, thank you all for your answers, I think I have a much clearer picture than before now.

Your various comments about the ability to go nova confirmed what I suspected : if I want challenging encounters, I better plan for several a day (and even if I don't, at least I'd have to keep them guessing). Right now, I have 3 encounters planned (well, likely to happen) for the first day, we'll see how it goes. And as for capture... well, right now, I have no particular plans to throw them in jail, but then again, it's a long campaign, and it's sandbox. So who knows. :smallamused: I'll keep in mind the need for an antimagic field of some sort for it to stick.

"Deep Impact" seems to be the thing he was talking about, since he mentioned a feat chain. And since he's definitely a psion, and not a psychic warrior... And I'll keep an eye for psychic reformation.

Well, anyway, this whole thing opens up some new horizons!

[Rubik]

Each flavor of psion has a different skill list -- they all share a basic core list, but they all have auxilliary skills added on. So a telepath has social skills, seer has information gathering ones, shaper has...Bluff...for some reason. And so on. And given the differing power list access, each one can most definitely feel different than the others in play.

Manifesters are, in general, also very feat intensive and require quite a few feats if they want to do anything with their psionic focus (such as metapsionics) in particular. It's one of the things that helps put the kibosh on metapsionics abuse (along with the fact that only one metapsionic feat can be applied at a time without extensive feat usage).

Manifesters are also extremely difficult to subdue for long periods by the same methods used for arcane and divine casters, since they don't use components (and thus, no divine focus or material components, and grappling and pinning is pretty much a lost cause), though it is possible if you go beyond "tie hands and feet and apply a gag." Knocking one out with nonlethal damage is one way to do so. Key manifesting ability score damage (Int for psions, Wis for psywars, and Cha for wilders) is another. You can also prevent them from getting proper rest once they've run out of power points, and blinding them will assist in preventing targeting (though this can be bypassed entirely with the right powers known).

Psions can be really potent, about on par with a sorcerer. Sorcerers have stronger spells available to them, but psions are built around a system designed for spontaneous casters, instead of being tacked onto a fire-and-forget Vancian slot system. It's surprisingly effective at keeping up, really.

[Fouredged Sword]

One last note. Psions have access to the hardest to block divination ability in the game.

Metafacility, due to the way it is written, is almost impossible to block. Almost all anti-divination defenses are ignored, and it works across any range. Very little will stop it pre epic.

He likely won't have access to it for a while, but it is worth being aware of. The only defense is to have never met the psion.

[deuxhero]

Key manifesting ability score damage (Int for psions, Wis for psywars, and Cha for wilders) is another.

And honestly, if you don't keep a robe of powerlessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#robeofPowerlessness) around to throw on prisoners (you only need 1 as it keeps its powers and effects after removing it) you are a pretty bad prison.

(The PF version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items#TOC-Robe-of-Powerlessness) is even "better" for prisoners, targeting someone's casting score instead of just int. As you are the GM feel free to import it into an otherwise 3.5 game)