Dragon Wild Shape

[me_maikey]

As a druid 8/warshaper 5 with the draon wild shape, I find the dragons to be somewhat weak.

Last session we fought a negative energy dragon (huge) and my little silver dragon got snatched and fed to a gargantuan worm (long story) when the dragon fled with minimal hp. Denying the acid dmg while being eaten had something for it, but there is not enough "uhmph" with the dragons.

The very big problem is the size of small or medium. I tried to ask for a mercury dragon, but the DM responded with "This is not Faerun".

Any tips on making dragons awesome?

[defiantdan]

I've played druid for most of my campaigns. From my experience Dragonshapes are primarily utiliy. They give you some good movement modes and with the spell Enhance wildshape can give you some nice ex. If you're allowed wildshape into a fleshraker and ask your wizard for an enlarge person. then if you can have some fun with venomfire. Bite of the X spells are good for anyshape you take(share with companion).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dragon Wild Shape doesn't make for very good melee forms. Its main benefit is utility, something that is only really worth it if you actually have access to dragons outside of the standard chromatic/metallic ones. Planar Dragons (Drac), Mist/Mercury/Steel (DoF) and Gem Dragons (MM2) all offer things beyond an immunity and weak breath weapon.

Additionally you're severely limited in what forms you can assume by your loss of 5 Wild Shape HD. Getting into melee combat with a very young or wyrmling form isn't a very good idea.
You can get around it somewhat with Enlarge Person or Expansion, either from an allied spellcaster or item, but low HD dragon forms just don't offer very much beyond basic immunities.

Your build suggests that you prefer to melee - you'd be a lot better off using Enhance Wild Shape to assume Plant Forms, provided you get something to make up the lost Wild Shape HD. Most of the good plant forms are in the 12-15HD range (FF has some really good ones, Sandstorm has one too iirc).
I suggest taking a look at the Dragon Wild Shape Optimization thread (http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381). If your DM bans you from using most of those forms i'd look into changing/retraining the feat into something else.

You should also look into getting a Wildshape Amulet, no matter what else you decide.

[paperarmor]

What the above poster said but note the feat gives you the ex and su abilities of the Dragon Shape. Also Breath Weapon strafing is a thing.

[phlidwsn]

They are great for utility and getting access to weird abilities. Ie adamantine wall blocking you? Rust dragon fixes that right up. They are not front line combat engines though, for the most part. Airborne spell chuckers tends to be my goto style, or if you're stuck underground shadow dragon and cast from the shadows.

[Bronk]

As a medium dragon, you would get 5 natural attacks... a bite, 2 claws, and two wing slams. If you want to be a melee fighter, I suggest buffing those. I'd try to get a necklace of natural attacks, and try to get someone to play a Dragonfire Inspiration bard to help you out (or try to get one through leadership, perhaps).

You can also make iterative unarmed attacks as normal and add all five of your natural attacks as secondaries. You might want to look into getting a fanged ring or a monk's belt to make the unarmed attacks lethal though.

[malonkey1]

I'm assuming this is the Draconomicon Dragon Wild Shape, yes? Well, technically, you could argue that dragonblooded creatures (e.g. the humble but cheesetastic Kobold) are fair game as well for your wild shape (dragonblooded creatures meet prerequisites as if they were a dragon, and being a dragon is a prerequisite for being a valid form for Dragon Wild Shape). This is assuming you have access to Dragon Magic, though, otherwise that rule sort of doesn't exist.

[Bronk]

You might also look into getting the Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows (Dragon 314). They grant a constant Cha modifier fire damage bonus to all your melee attacks (all 8 or nine of them)... Which, since it is a flat bonus, would be multiplied on a crit.

[Werephilosopher]

dragonblooded creatures meet prerequisites as if they were a dragon

You have it backwards - dragons meet prereqs as if they were dragonblooded.

[Vaz]

I'm assuming this is the Draconomicon Dragon Wild Shape, yes? Well, technically, you could argue that dragonblooded creatures (e.g. the humble but cheesetastic Kobold) are fair game as well for your wild shape (dragonblooded creatures meet prerequisites as if they were a dragon, and being a dragon is a prerequisite for being a valid form for Dragon Wild Shape). This is assuming you have access to Dragon Magic, though, otherwise that rule sort of doesn't exist.

The average Kobold doesn't have dragonwrought, so an impossible option.

[eggynack]

As was noted, increasing the potency of dragon wild shape is really mostly dependent on book access. Really wide access grants a really broad set of abilities, and the most restrictive access still grants a pretty decent set. Even just the set from the draconomicon and MM I has stuff like the tarterian dragon, with its fancy FOM ability, rust dragon, with its rusting bite, silver dragon, with its alternate form, and a good number of movement modes, vision modes, and immunities. It likely lags behind exalted wild shape at that level of book access, but it's still a reasonable choice.

[Bronk]

Oh, also, you can increase your effective druid level by +4 for the wild shape ability with the Wild Shape Amulet from Magic of Faerun. That should open up a few more decent dragon options for you.

[Hanuman]

All dragons need this spell:
http://dndtools.eu/spells/draconomicon--92/scintillating-scales--1001/
Otherwise, dragon's low dex and touch AC is crippling, especially against frostburn dex damaging touch spells.

I suggest using pathfinder's wildshape instead.

[eggynack]

All dragons need this spell:
http://dndtools.eu/spells/draconomicon--92/scintillating-scales--1001/
Otherwise, dragon's low dex and touch AC is crippling, especially against frostburn dex damaging touch spells.
It's a bit not on the druid list, and also short in duration. Probably not worth the cost, in other words. It might be better to just confront the problem directly. Keep up a distance that makes standard touch attacks difficult to make, and support that with friendly fire to stop dangerous ranged touch attacks away. Alternatively, just pick up a monk's belt, and raise your touch AC to a pretty crazy level.


I suggest using pathfinder's wildshape instead.
Because it's worse, or because you think it's better? Cause it's going to be worse in the vast majority of situations, and I don't think it particularly works for this purpose.

[Hanuman]

It's a bit not on the druid list, and also short in duration. Probably not worth the cost, in other words. It might be better to just confront the problem directly. Keep up a distance that makes standard touch attacks difficult to make, and support that with friendly fire to stop dangerous ranged touch attacks away. Alternatively, just pick up a monk's belt, and raise your touch AC to a pretty crazy level.


Because it's worse, or because you think it's better? Cause it's going to be worse in the vast majority of situations, and I don't think it particularly works for this purpose.

Erm, it's balanced. I assumed the complaints were because the character was under-performing.

I suggested it because the target animal can be made up so there isn't a lot of rules in the way between you and what you want to be.

[eggynack]

Erm, it's balanced. I assumed the complaints were because the character was under-performing.
If the issue is underperformance, then PF is likely a bad idea, as it's worse than standard wild shape by a decent margin.


I suggested it because the target animal can be made up so there isn't a lot of rules in the way between you and what you want to be.
I suppose, though you don't really end up doing all the things that make dragons so interesting.

[Hanuman]

If the issue is underperformance, then PF is likely a bad idea, as it's worse than standard wild shape by a decent margin.
Druid is still tier 1 in pathfinder, the problem lies within trying to be a dragon and 3.5.
Switch to cryohydra and sweep house, whatever.

[malonkey1]

Alright, how about a Ssvaklor (MM3)? 15 HD, some nasty natural attacks, 202 HP, and a poisonous bite.

[eggynack]

Druid is still tier 1 in pathfinder
Yeah, but a significantly lower tier one, in part due to the much weaker nature of wild shape in that system. It just seems like going in the wrong direction.


The problem lies within trying to be a dragon and 3.5. Switch to cryohydra and sweep house, whatever.
The real problem lies with trying to use dragon forms for combat. Dragon wild shape is a pretty amazing feat. There's also the issue that cryohydra forms are out of reach at this level, even with both an amulet and trappings of the beast.

Alright, how about a Ssvaklor (MM3)? 15 HD, some nasty natural attacks, 202 HP, and a poisonous bite.
That HD is a bit on the unreachable side at this level, and the HP is irrelevant, as it doesn't impact wild shape. The form's melee ability also doesn't seem especially great, running off of only 19 strength.

[Hanuman]

Yeah, but a significantly lower tier one, in part due to the much weaker nature of wild shape in that system. It just seems like going in the wrong direction.


The real problem lies with trying to use dragon forms for combat. Dragon wild shape is a pretty amazing feat. There's also the issue that cryohydra forms are out of reach at this level, even with both an amulet and trappings of the beast.


I thought hydras had 1HD/Head starting at 5 heads. So, 8+ headed cryohydra?

As for druid, what do you propose to turn it into a tier 0.5 apart from gestalting with gramarie?

[eggynack]

I thought hydras had 1HD/Head starting at 5 heads. So, 8+ headed cryohydra?
Hydras of any HD are huge, and thus inaccessible before you hit an effective wild shape level of 15.


As for druid, what do you propose to turn it into a tier 0.5 apart from gestalting with gramarie?
I'm not really sure what this question means on any level. If you're just talking about power increasers, planar shepherd is a massive one, and aberration wild shape is very powerful.

[Hanuman]

I was humoring the idea that reducing 3.5's wildshape's effectiveness was indeed in the wrong direction.

Ah right huge, been a while honestly.

[eggynack]

I was humoring the idea that reducing 3.5's wildshape's effectiveness was indeed in the wrong direction.
Well, it's likely the right direction for overall game balance. It's just the wrong direction if the problem is that wild shape's not doing enough.

[Khedrac]

Hydras of any HD are huge, and thus inaccessible before you hit an effective wild shape level of 15.
And you are looking at finding a different feat - Dragon Wild Shape from the Draconomicon expressly limits you to Small and Medium forms.

My Arcane Hierophant usually uses the Battle Dragon form for the natural armour, but I very rarely actually make use of the draconic abilities - it's for rp reasons.
That said, the time a Major Demon came after us while we were at home was funny - sleeping in copper (I think) dragon form in a burrow in our grounds - I could burrow faster than it could dig. It gave up and ported out before we could assemble to kill it (again).

[eggynack]

And you are looking at finding a different feat - Dragon Wild Shape from the Draconomicon expressly limits you to Small and Medium forms.
This would be from frozen wild shape, which features no such restriction.

[Bullet06320]

I tried to ask for a mercury dragon, but the DM responded with "This is not Faerun".



mercury dragons are not Faerun exclusive
http://web.archive.org/web/20130531112859/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040103a

[Bronk]

I meant to say this before, but you might want to look into 'Deep' dragons... they're generally the smallest for their Hit Die and age category... in fact they're medium sized up to the juvenile age category at 15HD. They also get 'True Seeing' even as a wyrmling, and there's a variant rule in the draconomicon about them getting ten feet of reach for their bite at medium size.

There are a few items that can help you out:
The Wild Shape Amulet from Magic of Faerun I mentioned before (+4 to wild shape)
Trappings of the beast collection (three items from Complete Champion) for +1 to wild shape
and the "Skin of the Kaletor" from Dragon Magazine 324 (+4 to wild shape) if it is allowed

You still wouldn't be able to exceed your own HD limit, but even at 12HD you would be able to be a young deep dragon.

As for hydras, they are indeed too big, but also they aren't dragons, they're magical beasts, so they wouldn't fall under draconic wild shape anyway.

[eggynack]

As for hydras, they are indeed too big, but also they aren't dragons, they're magical beasts, so they wouldn't fall under draconic wild shape anyway.
My understanding was that this would be as an alternative to dragon wild shape, though I'm not entirely sure why that possibility of alternatives is particularly relevant.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The thing is that Dragon Wild Shape just isn't very good for melee combat, at least compared to other options. The loss of 5 WS HD to Warshaper doesn't help either.
Cryohydra is probably the most potent melee form if you look at pure damage but i've always felt that spending a feat on a single form is kind of a waste. It also comes a little too late if you want to play a melee focused druid from the low levels up.

There are good melee forms available as a pure druid. The Ironmaw (FF) gets 4 attacks with a 60ft reach with a bunch of special attacks. Take Combat Reflexes and go to town with AoO's.
Octopus Tree (FF) gets 8 attacks. Lots of plant forms get regeneration and various immunities, poison and all of them get plant immunities (with Enhance Wildshape, of course).

There really is no need to take a feat to get a good melee form. If you do, do it for the special abilities. Aberration Wild Shape is king here, but costs 2 feats. Dragon Wild Shape is a close second and only costs one feat, but only if you're actually allowed to use all those dragons. Core dragons are lame.
Exalted Wild Shape has some okay stuff but it's rather limited compared to the previous two. Frozen Wild Shape may as well be namen Cryohydra Shape because all the other forms it grants suck.

[Bronk]

This would be from frozen wild shape, which features no such restriction.

Good call, and something the OP would need to know. Frozen wild shape allows you take on 'any magical beast with the cold subtype', which is pretty great, considering 'magical beast wild shape' is an epic feat. Cryohydra form is okay... lots of bites or lots of breaths, depending, but no flight and vulnerable to fire. Its size means the OP would need some of those wild shape enhancing magic items.

Dragon Wild shape is pretty versatile, gets a good number of attacks, is fast, can be immune to a variety of energy attacks depending on form, and has flight. It's also the one the OP already has, so the switch threw me a little.

You know, you could probably use the supernatural alternate form abilities of the gold and silver dragons to take on new humanoid forms for disguise, and medium and small animals as well, almost like weaker extra wild shape uses...