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bjoern
2014-07-31, 12:41 PM
An ongoing joke in our group is halfheartedly giving the DM a hard time asking him to let us start at level 20. Every once in a while someone asks in jest and he gets dismissed with a "yeah, OK lol"

Recently he elaborated on it explaining that the game gets exponentialy more complicated across the board as you go up in levels. Which is true, I get that, it makes it a more slippery eel for the DM to keep things in balance. He then told the player that asked on that particular time that if he could make a level 20 guy from the ground up in 1 hour he could play him. GO! lol this guy didn't even know where to start.
So many options. The point was made. So many options for just one guy, DM has to also juggle that guy plus everything else too. He ended up just taking fighter 20 and a ton of feats in a hurry to get SOMETHING complete in time. Got about 3/4 done I think.

Anyway, he working on building a high level campaign at some point to get it out of everyone's system.

When the time comes what would you build at level 20 if you only had 1 hour to roll dice all the way through picking gear and a name?

AWiz_Abroad
2014-07-31, 12:46 PM
An ongoing joke in our group is halfheartedly giving the DM a hard time asking him to let us start at level 20. Every once in a while someone asks in jest and he gets dismissed with a "yeah, OK lol"

Recently he elaborated on it explaining that the game gets exponentialy more complicated across the board as you go up in levels. Which is true, I get that, it makes it a more slippery eel for the DM to keep things in balance. He then told the player that asked on that particular time that if he could make a level 20 guy from the ground up in 1 hour he could play him. GO! lol this guy didn't even know where to start.
So many options. The point was made. So many options for just one guy, DM has to also juggle that guy plus everything else too. He ended up just taking fighter 20 and a ton of feats in a hurry to get SOMETHING complete in time. Got about 3/4 done I think.

Anyway, he working on building a high level campaign at some point to get it out of everyone's system.

When the time comes what would you build at level 20 if you only had 1 hour to roll dice all the way through picking gear and a name?

Eh, 1 hour of doing nothing but. . . I might have a challenge with casters (so many good spells), but most mundane's wouldn't be that challenging. For this challenge do we get the use of the internet?

Gildedragon
2014-07-31, 12:48 PM
I'd go binder or factotum
In the latter's case: athasian human with nymph's kiss at 1, lotsa FoI, kn dev, EWP gnomish quickrazor... Swordsage 1 dip for diamond mind maneuvers and shadow hand teleport

bjoern
2014-07-31, 12:50 PM
Sure internet is fine. The player didn't have it. At the time. Really, you could just find an already built level 20 guy and copy paste him in like 5 minuted but that kind of circimvents the whole thing.

EDIT -- I have found that the most time consuming things are the mundane stuff, picking spells, doing math for skills and saves to fill out the character sheets . Picking gear and spending your WBL, and doing all the math again once you pick gear.

But that's just me

DeAnno
2014-07-31, 12:50 PM
This would maybe be an interesting challenge if one was denied books and had to build purely from memory.

Rubik
2014-07-31, 12:52 PM
There's always a simplified, "Vow of Poverty totemist" or something. All that really requires is skill point and feat allocation, and those are easy enough.

bjoern
2014-07-31, 12:58 PM
A bit more perspective about our group. I'm the most optimizing guy in the group. And just recently deviated from
1. Get high strength score
2. Get cleave
3. CHARGE!

so building anything from memory is out for us lol, unless its a barb 10 ftr 10. I think I can remember those haha.

But as far as "good" level 20 goes
5wizard, 3 incant, 4 fate spinner, 7 Initiate of sevenfold veil, 1 arch mage.

I may have buried myself in options that will kill time but as far as levels go I think this is a solid choice. Maybe drop incant since you lose so much spell access......

Gabrosin
2014-07-31, 01:02 PM
Druid 20 or Cleric 20 would be my baseline. You're freed from the need to decide on spells in the hour timeframe; you could just memorize whatever for that first session and research better options later. The druid's animal companion would cost you some additional time, but you could go for an ACF that gives it up if you needed to. Feat selection for either should be pretty easy, and they have low numbers of relevant skills to worry about. Then you get into the meaty part, which is trying to figure out your items, but that too could be deferred a bit if your DM is the sort to let you buy what you want in future sessions.

It would be a challenge to come up with any sort of real optimization unless you were heavily familiar with what you wanted before the timer started, but you'd certainly end up with a Tier 1 character capable of handling whatever.

Synar
2014-07-31, 01:06 PM
An ongoing joke in our group is halfheartedly giving the DM a hard time asking him to let us start at level 20. Every once in a while someone asks in jest and he gets dismissed with a "yeah, OK lol"

Recently he elaborated on it explaining that the game gets exponentialy more complicated across the board as you go up in levels. Which is true, I get that, it makes it a more slippery eel for the DM to keep things in balance. He then told the player that asked on that particular time that if he could make a level 20 guy from the ground up in 1 hour he could play him. GO! lol this guy didn't even know where to start.
So many options. The point was made. So many options for just one guy, DM has to also juggle that guy plus everything else too. He ended up just taking fighter 20 and a ton of feats in a hurry to get SOMETHING complete in time. Got about 3/4 done I think.

Anyway, he working on building a high level campaign at some point to get it out of everyone's system.

When the time comes what would you build at level 20 if you only had 1 hour to roll dice all the way through picking gear and a name?

Grey Elf Necropolitan Wizard (Elven Generalist) 20 with all spell from the phb known (since by level 20 and with the massive wealth this is easy to achieve) and only stat boosting items (immunities are given by undead type) (remaining gold left unspent). No need for mundane equipment but a quill. For feats, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (if allowed), and then Spell focus (something random) and then random creation feats. All stat boost in int. For skills, max spellcraft, concentration, 5 or 10 in all knowledges until I run out of skill points, and all those lefts in umd (cross class skill).
So no checking the requirements, no building level by level, and the only thing to calculate would be the total of skills and hitpoints (both depending on int =}) but that should not be too long.
Probably supbar, but at least it is not too long to create for a level 20 character, if abit generic. The only problem would be choosing spell to cast each day, but that is not done at character creation :smalltongue:.
If there is time left, maybe pick some other spells from the spell compendium and try to find an item that protect from undead turning/positive energy.

And the name? Dunno, some random thing found in 5 sec. Like Elmest Mesint.


EDIT: This name looks a lot like Elminster. I've got a F in originality. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT EDIT:Cloak of undead turning should do the trick and it is fairly cheap too. The time it would have taked me to find it (this item I mean), however, depends wildly of if internet is allowed during character creation. :smalltongue:

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Super ninja'd. I swear it is because I type slowly and am unfamiliar with english, not because the concept took me time. :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2014-07-31, 01:47 PM
I've been known to spend more than that just on my equipment list.

And while you can build a prepared divine caster in that amount of time, you really shouldn't. You need time to familiarize yourself with your spells, and do things like compiling statblocks for your likely summons. If you don't spend time on this at character creation, it's going to seriously slow down your play time, when you've got a half-dozen people waiting instead of just you.

Zombulian
2014-07-31, 01:50 PM
Knight 20 or Truenamer 20. I know how to build them either way and both of them are awesome when they capstone. Knight might be a little harder because martials are a little more dependent on magic items.

Trasilor
2014-07-31, 01:55 PM
Warblade 20 in about 1/2 an hour.

Of course, I have already figured out the maneuvers I wanted to take (and their order) a long time ago :smallamused:

With only 5-6 feats to choose from, it isn't that difficult.

Longest part would be to buy gear. Once I got the basics down (weapon/armor/stat boosting) the rest takes a bit of effort.

Gabrosin
2014-07-31, 01:59 PM
I've been known to spend more than that just on my equipment list.

And while you can build a prepared divine caster in that amount of time, you really shouldn't. You need time to familiarize yourself with your spells, and do things like compiling statblocks for your likely summons. If you don't spend time on this at character creation, it's going to seriously slow down your play time, when you've got a half-dozen people waiting instead of just you.

My implication wasn't to slow down the play time so you can figure out your summons during the game. It was that you could run the first adventure without preparing more than a very little in terms of spell selection, and then take more time between sessions to do the rest of your normal pre-start prepwork. For an arcane caster, you can't just decide on new spells (unless you have an IC way to buy them, for wizards). For a ToB martial character, you had to choose all of your maneuvers in the timeframe. You could manage something weak like Rogue 20 or Monk 20 but that would be outclassed without heavy optimization. So take your divine caster, accept that you'll be at less than full potential in the first session, and go from there.

If this is for just a one-shot, then I would probably spin up a Conjurer or Transmuter and just grab all my favorite spells. But I know the arcane spell lists pretty well because I've built such characters before. If I'm going at it from scratch I'd be overwhelmed quickly by the number of decisions to make.

nedz
2014-07-31, 04:43 PM
In my experience characters which have been played through from low levels are usually much stronger than those created on the fly. The exception perhaps is if the player has played such a character before and so knows what to expect. The reason is, I think, is because you have acquired a set of tools to deal with a variety of challenges and so are more prepared.

SowZ
2014-07-31, 05:28 PM
An ongoing joke in our group is halfheartedly giving the DM a hard time asking him to let us start at level 20. Every once in a while someone asks in jest and he gets dismissed with a "yeah, OK lol"

Recently he elaborated on it explaining that the game gets exponentialy more complicated across the board as you go up in levels. Which is true, I get that, it makes it a more slippery eel for the DM to keep things in balance. He then told the player that asked on that particular time that if he could make a level 20 guy from the ground up in 1 hour he could play him. GO! lol this guy didn't even know where to start.
So many options. The point was made. So many options for just one guy, DM has to also juggle that guy plus everything else too. He ended up just taking fighter 20 and a ton of feats in a hurry to get SOMETHING complete in time. Got about 3/4 done I think.

Anyway, he working on building a high level campaign at some point to get it out of everyone's system.

When the time comes what would you build at level 20 if you only had 1 hour to roll dice all the way through picking gear and a name?

I'd go Rogue. You can optimize a little and still not overshadow the whole group, but still be useful. Just prioritize Dex and Int. I may go Daring Outlaw and also might take 10 levels of assassin. This is a pretty easy build and very simple as far as what feats and items to grab.

icefractal
2014-07-31, 07:04 PM
Important distinction - one-shot character, or full campaign character but you only have an hour?

For the former - probably a Hellfire Warlock. Fairly simple to build, there's not that many good invocations to choose from, you do decent damage and have enough versatility for a one-shot. Equipment and feats won't be fully optimized, but I've played one before (albeit not at 20th level) so I have some idea what I need.

For the latter - straight Psion. Not because it's the easiest to build in general (although it's not the hardest either - no PrCs needed), but because I've played a Psion 17 before, so I already have an idea what powers/feats/items I'd want. Plus with Psychic Reformation, you're not stuck with bad choices. The reason I wouldn't use this for a one-shot is that while the build is simple, figuring out the ideal ways to use your many powers can take several sessions.

Personally, I feel like any character that wants to do melee (or non-spell ranged) is complex to build even if they're simple to play. Real ultimate melee power in D&D (even more so in Pathfinder) comes from Voltron-ing a bunch of small effects together into big effects of doom, even for a caster. Of course if you're all going non-optimal, and not fighting really vicious threats, then it's not so much of an issue.

Shieldbunny
2014-07-31, 08:24 PM
I'd go with a Human Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10. Make all your feats some form of meta-magic and spellcraft boosters. Max Spellcraft/Concentration/Knowledge. Pick your Spells. Buy a tome of int +5, aheadband of Int +6, and a bag of holding. Use the remaining time to by spells for my spellbook. Put the unused cash in the bag of holding.

WeaselGuy
2014-07-31, 08:33 PM
If I were put on a crunch like that, I'd probably do something like Lesser Aasimar VoP Favored Soul 20 or Lesser Aasimar VoP Sorcerer/Ur-Priest/Mystc Theurge. Because, as stated above, VoP cuts out needing gear, and casting wins 99% of the time. With only a few feats to choose that are really necessary, all I really need to do is pick spells, which isn't really deal-breaking.

If I had to do it by memory (for lulz) I'd probably do a Lesser Tiefling Rogue/Swash/Assassin. With that type of character, gear is simple. Keen rapier and a Sonic Burst hand crossbow, Bracers of Murder, Belt of Magnificence, Ring of the Chameleon, Ring of Invisibility, Vest of resistance, Phoenix Cloak (might as well get the rest of the Regalia of the Phoenix while I'm at it... Raptor Mask, Crown of Flames and the Talon Scepter (upgrade that puppy to +5 too)) , Perpetual Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. That'd get me started and keep me effective. Craven, Knowledge Devotion, Versatile Combatant, Daring Outlaw, Hand Crossbow Focus. 2 more feats might prove challenging... maybe some ambush feats? That'd mean looking in a book though. Oh, I guess Weapon Finesse might be necessary, since I'll be pumping dex lol.

Malroth
2014-07-31, 08:41 PM
Gnome Illusionist/shadowcraft mage/shadowcrafter, just pick silent image for all spell slots including cantrips

kulosle
2014-08-01, 03:33 AM
If this was presented to me i would probably build a VoP forsaker that was a fist fighter. get uncanny trickster so that the forsakers damage reduction is only blocked by epic weapons. Would take what, 10 minutes. there is only 7 levels left to choose and I might just choose to put them all in sword sage (which would make it take a little longer to pick maneuvers).

might also just grab some nifty templates like mineral warrior for fast healing and lolth touched for that sweet sweet constitution.

Doorhandle
2014-08-01, 05:01 AM
An ongoing joke in our group is halfheartedly giving the DM a hard time asking him to let us start at level 20. Every once in a while someone asks in jest and he gets dismissed with a "yeah, OK lol"

Recently he elaborated on it explaining that the game gets exponentialy more complicated across the board as you go up in levels. Which is true, I get that, it makes it a more slippery eel for the DM to keep things in balance. He then told the player that asked on that particular time that if he could make a level 20 guy from the ground up in 1 hour he could play him. GO! lol this guy didn't even know where to start.
So many options. The point was made. So many options for just one guy, DM has to also juggle that guy plus everything else too. He ended up just taking fighter 20 and a ton of feats in a hurry to get SOMETHING complete in time. Got about 3/4 done I think.

Anyway, he working on building a high level campaign at some point to get it out of everyone's system.

When the time comes what would you build at level 20 if you only had 1 hour to roll dice all the way through picking gear and a name?

Something simple, that's for sure. Help that I enjoy playing martial classes anyway.

Just for kicks, I think I'd make a drunken master monk and spend ALL of my money on potions/booze/booze potions. If you have dragon style you already hit like a mack truck, so what's to worry about?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 05:14 AM
Human Cleric of Zarus 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, Strength, War, Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains, DMM: Persist, Power Attack, Extra Turning, Craft Rod, Law Devotion. Pick necessary item effects that spells can't do, some necessary metamagic rods and circlet of rapid casting, then fill the rest of your WBL with Night Sticks. Prepare buffs buffs buffs, a few crowd controls and save-or-lose/die, and utility/status fixing/situational spells. You could easily do your skills, feats, and items first, then say, "The character is done, but he just woke up and needs to spend an hour preparing today's spells..."

J-H
2014-08-01, 07:51 AM
Psion 20. Psychic warrior->Slayer might be fun, too.

Studoku
2014-08-01, 07:58 AM
I'd go beguiler 20. Everything's pre-selected so I have plenty of time of buying gear.

Killer Angel
2014-08-01, 08:12 AM
Eh, 1 hour of doing nothing but. . . I might have a challenge with casters (so many good spells)

eh, for casters i could take a sorcerer. the choice of spells will be shorter than wizards / clerics / druids, and we already know what are the good ones.
Pick the majority of spells from Core and a bunch from other sources (wings of cover, arcane fusion, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Arcane Spellsurge...).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 08:43 AM
I'd go beguiler 20. Everything's pre-selected so I have plenty of time of buying gear.

This is definitely going to be one of the best answers here. Be sure to throw in a level of Mindbender at 6th and get Versatile Spellcaster. This allows your Advanced Learning spells to be something like Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. I'd be sure to include Split Ray for Mindsight + Split Ray of Stupidity + Lesser Rod of Maximize, guaranteed 10 Int damage if it hits and you can always be sure to target something with 10 Int or lower. Cover all the necessary item effects and get a Shax's Indispensable Haversack and you're golden.

Necroticplague
2014-08-01, 08:46 AM
The main time-consumer for higher-level characters is spending all the WBL. Fortunately, grafts are both expensive, provide permanent bonuses, and are almost all consolidated in just a couple books (fiend folio or lords of madness), so that can cut out a good chunk of time. I'd probably go Warblade 20 (because their capstone is freaking awesome), Pick up the basics of equipment (+6 belt of magnificence, +5 weapon, +5 Armor, level 3 portable hole,+5 tome/manual for each stat), blow the rest on grafts, leave any remainder as cash. Then, just select stances and maneuvers (which, since their all in the same book and listed by school, should be pretty easy). Feats would be a pretty easy pick (power attack, 2 tactical feats related to whatever your main school is, whatever the prereqs for those 2 are, cleave, possibly a skill focus).

Andezzar
2014-08-01, 09:23 AM
Cleric 20 or druid would probably be easily doable in one hour. The cleric even has three feats you cannot go really wrong with (extend spell, persistent spell, DMM: Persistent spell), so you only have to decide the rest. depending on your skill points you will not do much more than maximizing Concentration and Spellcraft anyways. So that's easy as well. Spending the WBL will probably be the most time consuming part. If yor going DMM: persist buying as many nightsticks as the DM lets you get away with won't be that bad either.

Chronos
2014-08-01, 10:47 AM
The cleric even has three feats you cannot go really wrong with (extend spell, persistent spell, DMM: Persistent spell), so you only have to decide the rest.
I would disagree with this. DMM: Persist is really an all-or-nothing thing-- You really need to spend all the rest of your feats on Extra Turning. If you don't, then you've just got the turns from a Nightstick, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and a Cloak of Charisma, which is going to be enough for at most two spells. Three feats for one or two persisted spells is not worthwhile. Obviously, this changes if your DM houserules that nightsticks stack, but I can't understand why any DM would ever make that houserule.

ComaVision
2014-08-01, 11:20 AM
I have like 15 characters built out in spreadsheets that are accessible by my phone.

Barring that, if I had to do it by memory I'd probably just do a DMM: Persist Cleric 20.

Story
2014-08-01, 11:57 AM
Even just 1 or 2 persisted spells is worth it if you persist the right ones. And at this level, you're getting spells like Shapechange and Foresight depending on your domains.

Plus, you can throw in a Greater Rod of Extend Spell to double your persisted spells.

Andezzar
2014-08-01, 12:05 PM
Even just 1 or 2 persisted spells is worth it if you persist the right ones. And at this level, you're getting spells like Shapechange and Foresight depending on your domains.Exactly


Plus, you can throw in a Greater Rod of Extend Spell to double your persisted spells.It does not work that way. Persistent spell sets the duration to 24 hours. Extend spell doubles the duration of the spell, not the modified spell. If you apply extend first the duration will be 24 hours, if you do it the other way around the spell will last twice as long as the normal spell would (probably much less than 24h).

PsyBomb
2014-08-01, 12:25 PM
VoP Totemist 20 would be fastest for me, or similarly a VoP Warlock 20. I could whip either of those up in 15 minutes if need be, and if I didn't QUITE get all the Sacred feats picked I'd just say I got the VoP later than level 3. Or go Warlock 18/Saint 2 if permitted. Or Monk18/Saint 2 for epic Wis-stacking!

Pushing the time limits, the Ultimate Abjurer (Wiz(Abj)3/Master Specialist/Iot7FV) is crazy good (T1 with a -1 and -2 PrC... yeah...), with really simple spell selection criteria. Just forbid Evoc and another school of your choice (probably Necro). SAD makes stat selection a no-brainer, and helps blow WBL fast if need be. Couple of Greater Metamagic Rods, standard defensive items, Ring of Arcana, Int-boost out the Wazoo, add some Dex and Con, and you're golden.

Pan151
2014-08-01, 12:46 PM
VoP Druid 20 (or VoP Monk 1/Druid 19, if you're feeling adventurous) would be very fast to stat out.

Race: You're probably gonna lose more than one hour just arguing with the DM if you try to pick a Jermlaine or an Anthropomorphic bat, so just go with human.

Abilities: Dump everything into Wisdom, then into constitution.

Skills: Obvious enough

Feats: Natural Spell, Aberrant Wild Shape, Dragon Wild Shape, then you could as well just pick the rest randomly. For the VoP bonus feats, you probably have enough to pick every one that you qualify for.

Items: You have none.

Spells: You have all of them.

Calculating all the numbers: Use an online generator (http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm)

The only part that takes any reasonable amount of time is actually copying the whole thing into a character sheet

Andezzar
2014-08-01, 12:48 PM
Race: You're probably gonna lose more than one hour just arguing with the DM if you try to pick a Jermlaine or an Anthropomorphic bat, so just go with human.What's wrong with those two races?

Socratov
2014-08-01, 01:02 PM
Apart from the build I have, I know I can make a lvl 20 warlock based character in under an hour with maybe a page of backstory to boot.

assumed: 1 hour, wbl, 32 pb.

Starting at 18:56 - ended 19:45, rest time for formatting

Race: Human Necropolitan, [alignment]

abillities:

str:10
dex:10
con:--
wis:14
int:14
cha:18+4=23 +6=29

languages: Common, infernal

Class progression: Warlock 20

20d6 HD
Saves: +6/+6/+14
BAB: +15

Skills: UMD [full], Knowledge(Religion)[full], Knowlege(Arcana)[full], spellcraft [full], synergies and whatever you want

Invocations (invoker level 20):

Least:
Beguiling Influence
Baleful Utterance
See the Unseen

Lesser:
Fell Flight
Dimension Door
The Dead Walk

Greater:
Devil's Whispers
Chilling Tentacles
Nightmares Made Real

Dark:
Dark Foresight
Path of Shadow
Word of Changing

Special qualities:
Undead Traits (immune to just about anything)
DR 5/Cold Iron
Energy Resistances: 10 Fire&Sonic
Fiendish Resilience 5
Imbue Item
Deceive Item
Detect Magic
Eldritch Blast


Feats:
Human: corpse crafter
First: Bolster Resistance
3rd:Deadly Chill
6th:Hardened Flesh
9th:Nimble bones
12th:Destructive Retribution
15th:Necromantic Presence
18th:Necromantic Might

Equipment (priority listed):
Rod of Undead Mastery (10k)
Bracers of armour +6
Cloak of Cha +6
Vest of resistance +6
Black Obsidian (loads and loads of it)
Portable Holes (several)
Scrolls of Desecrate, Create Undead, etc.

Pan151
2014-08-01, 01:06 PM
What's wrong with those two races?

Nothing rules-wise, but they are both massively overpowered (both have +6 WIS, Anthropomorphic bat also has a fly speed and blindsense) LA +0 races, plus A.Bat is 3.0 .

Andezzar
2014-08-01, 01:32 PM
Feats:
Human: corpse crafter
First: Bolster Resistance
3rd:Deadly Chill
6th:Hardened Flesh
9th:Nimble bones
12th:Destructive Retribution
15th:Necromantic Presence
18th:Necromantic MightDo those feats even work for the warlock? A warlock does not cast necromancy spells and AFAIK the warlock is not the caster if he uses scrolls.

Gabrosin
2014-08-01, 03:53 PM
I would disagree with this. DMM: Persist is really an all-or-nothing thing-- You really need to spend all the rest of your feats on Extra Turning. If you don't, then you've just got the turns from a Nightstick, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and a Cloak of Charisma, which is going to be enough for at most two spells. Three feats for one or two persisted spells is not worthwhile. Obviously, this changes if your DM houserules that nightsticks stack, but I can't understand why any DM would ever make that houserule.

If you use one of the established methods to obtain multiple turning pools that can be used for DMM, you can get a lot more than just a couple spells, without needing Nightstick abuse. Takes a little extra build time to squeeze in an ACF like Rebuke Dragons and the Sacred Exorcist prestige class, but not much more.

Rubik
2014-08-01, 06:37 PM
There are plenty of builds online you could crib.

Like this one, for example. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page19&p=15474863#post15474863)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 08:14 PM
I would disagree with this. DMM: Persist is really an all-or-nothing thing-- You really need to spend all the rest of your feats on Extra Turning. If you don't, then you've just got the turns from a Nightstick, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and a Cloak of Charisma, which is going to be enough for at most two spells. Three feats for one or two persisted spells is not worthwhile. Obviously, this changes if your DM houserules that nightsticks stack, but I can't understand why any DM would ever make that houserule.

Nightsticks do stack, for two reasons:
Their benefit is not expressed as a bonus, so the rules about how bonuses do or do not stack cannot apply to them. Sometimes the game designers specifically don't want certain rules to apply to something, so they intentionally word that thing so that its benefit is not expressed in a way that the rule can apply. As another example of this, look at the errata for Leap Attack. It's expressed as a 100% increase, instead of a doubling effect, so that the rules on stacking multipliers cannot apply to it. "Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day." There is no +X in this, so it's not a 'bonus' at all, it's additional uses of a limited-use ability per Nightstick.

They emulate the Extra Turning feat, which specifically does stack with itself. That's listed in the item's prerequisites, and the item's effect does the exact same thing as that feat. Note that, "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites)." Extra Turning needs to specify that its effect stacks if taken multiple times because it's a feat, not because it grants a bonus (which it does not). Magic items automatically stack if taken in multiples unless the rules on stacking bonuses apply, so the Nightstick does not need any such exception in its description; it stacks with itself by default.

BaronDoctor
2014-08-01, 08:40 PM
My knee-jerk thought would actually be warmage (however few you need at your table, doable at 1-2 with moderate shenanigans --versatile spell / heighten spell is my preferred method) / rainbow servant 10 / war weaver 5 / Full-Casting X. Your spell list is the entire cleric spell list so you're a swiss army knife, you can snap your fingers and mass-buff people with whatever's useful at the time. Beyond that, charisma items and standard defensives with the best light armor you can find.
Five minutes of google for rainbow warweaver should find it.

EDIT: filling out the last four levels with Mage of the Arcane Order to get utility arcane spells up to level 6 is one possible continued swiss-army-knife thing.

Chronos
2014-08-01, 08:44 PM
They emulate the Extra Turning feat,
No, they do not. They require Extra Turning to create, but that's the only connection.

And whether they use the word "bonus" or not, they meet the definition.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 08:48 PM
No, they do not. They require Extra Turning to create, but that's the only connection.

And whether they use the word "bonus" or not, they meet the definition.

Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

No, it does not meet that definition.

Chronos
2014-08-01, 09:25 PM
Wait, so there's no such thing as armor bonuses any more? AC isn't a die roll.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 09:40 PM
Wait, so there's no such thing as armor bonuses any more? AC isn't a die roll.

It applies to a die roll's difficulty. Number of uses per day doesn't.

Flickerdart
2014-08-01, 09:54 PM
Level 20 in an hour? Nothing simpler. Roll a Druid. All of your cool stuff (spells, wildshapes) doesn't need to be thought about ahead of time. A companion can be refreshed in 24 hours. Druid 20 is very solid, but I'd spend my hour looking up prestige classes (as I've never actually played a divine caster before). Feats? Natural Spell, (Improved) Multiattack, (Improved) Rapidstrike, pick up a few soulmelds (nothing beats being a crocodile with 4 clawed arms and a manticore tail) and then Improved Natural Attack or Weapon Focus because who the hell cares, I'm a beast!

Knaight
2014-08-01, 10:08 PM
It's doable - I'd probably go Warlock 20, as it's a class I'm more familiar with. With that said, the point stands - just about any first level character can be made in way less than an hour (other than those which require a planned build out to level 20, and that doesn't really count as building a first level character anymore), specific choices have to be made here. The complexity does go up pretty dramatically.

On the other hand, there are a number of systems in which it's just accepted that a starting character will take an hour or more to complete. HERO comes to mind.

Andezzar
2014-08-02, 12:30 AM
My knee-jerk thought would actually be warmage (however few you need at your table, doable at 1-2 with moderate shenanigans --versatile spell / heighten spell is my preferred method) / rainbow servant 10 / war weaver 5 / Full-Casting X. Your spell list is the entire cleric spell list so you're a swiss army knife, you can snap your fingers and mass-buff people with whatever's useful at the time. Beyond that, charisma items and standard defensives with the best light armor you can find.
Five minutes of google for rainbow warweaver should find it.That is a very interesting idea.

Killer Angel
2014-08-02, 03:15 AM
Level 20 in an hour? Nothing simpler. Roll a Druid. All of your cool stuff (spells, wildshapes) doesn't need to be thought about ahead of time.

I've got the impression that the hour time limit, was to have a character ready to play and fight at 1h and 1 sec. (aka with a completed spell list). Otherwise, you're a 20th lev. character without spells.


(not that it's difficult with the druid... you can pick a totally random selection and convert in summon. But for a wizard could be more annoying)