Fast Healing/ Wands of Healing

[Delcor]

Do your DMs allow fast healing/wands of healing? Because to me it seems like as long as you have fast healing 1, or wand of cure light/moderate wounds it destroys an entire aspect of the game: attrition. Chances are you will have plenty of time between combats that any amount of fast healing will bring you straight back to full HP. Where is the fun in that? How is that fair? I've never had it from someone else's perspective besides my circle of dnd friends but it just seems completely ridiculous to have items like wands of healing or any class/template that offers fast healing. It removes HP and healing spells as a resource outside of combat, which is a huge part of dungeon crawling and adventuring in general in my eyes. Am I unique in this opinion?

What are your guys' thoughts on this?

[hymer]

The game is flexible enough that you can go either way. Many veterans tire of the HP attrition business and like to focus their attention on other aspects of the game.
Personally, I have no problems with wands of healing as a DM (it's 15gp spent per charge after all, and nobody is more aware of that than the players), and I adore those wands when I play a caster capable of healing. It's rather dull compared to all the other fun things you can do with your spells.

[Chronos]

If you want to make attrition relevant in a game, then you need to do a lot more than just remove healing wands. For starters, you need to set a pretty strict deadline, or the party will just stop to rest whenever they start running low. At the same time, though, even if they're doing their best to conserve their resources, sometimes they'll need to stop and rest, so you have to make sure your deadline is loose enough to allow for that.

[Forrestfire]

When I DM, I actively give the party sources of slow fast healing for out-of-combat downtime. Attrition-based mechanics aren't very fun, in my opinion, and the games we play rarely have enough fights in a day for it to matter.

When I play, I expect to be allowed to spend resources on this ability, unless the DM has stated outright that it's not allowed (in which case I'm either likely to think hard about whether or not this is the sort of game for me, or I entered the game specifically because it's an attrition-based dungeon crawling game).

[jiriku]

Do your DMs allow fast healing/wands of healing?
Universally yes, with the exception of one DM I had who hated spellcasters and ran a campaign with no spells of any kind.


Where is the fun in that?
I'd counter your question with another. Where's the fun in forcing some guy to play a cleric and do nothing but stand around waiting to throw heals when the active party members get hurt? Where's the fun in getting into the good part of a dungeon or getting close to the climax of an adventure and calling a halt, saying "whoops, we're running low on heals, guys"?

To my way of thinking, this is like having to call a camping trip short because your group has run out of food. Some people consider it fun to rough it and forage for their food while camping. Others think it's more sensible to just pack enough food to meet their needs. You think it's fun to worry about running out of healing and regularly stop to "stock up" on it by resting for the night and letting the healer prep new spells. But to me it seems more sensible to just pack enough healing to meet the party's needs.


How is that fair?
It is "fair" because it is completely in accordance with the rules. Wands of cure light wounds or lesser vigor don't require any sketchy rules interpretations or exotic combinations of options from many sources. They're simple applications of the Craft Wand feat applied to common 1st-level spells. Heck, wands of cure spells appear in the random loot tables in the DMG, and are included as loot in the earliest encounters of some of the published D&D modules that I own (along with a sidebar from the author stating that such gear is included explicitly to ensure that every party will have some portable healing). Thus, this kind of thing is explicitly part of the vision of the game designers.


it just seems completely ridiculous to have items like wands of healing or any class/template that offers fast healing. Am I unique in this opinion?
You're far from unique. I've seen your view expressed by many others. But it would be fair to state that the kind of D&D you want to play isn't the only kind of D&D that people can enjoy.

[Thiyr]

Do your DMs allow fast healing/wands of healing? Because to me it seems like as long as you have fast healing 1, or wand of cure light/moderate wounds it destroys an entire aspect of the game: attrition. Chances are you will have plenty of time between combats that any amount of fast healing will bring you straight back to full HP. Where is the fun in that? How is that fair? I've never had it from someone else's perspective besides my circle of dnd friends but it just seems completely ridiculous to have items like wands of healing or any class/template that offers fast healing. It removes HP and healing spells as a resource outside of combat, which is a huge part of dungeon crawling and adventuring in general in my eyes. Am I unique in this opinion?

What are your guys' thoughts on this?

Our groups pretty much always get ourselves a clickystick of healing, in part because few of us want to be playing a healer (as mentioned above), and natural healing just ends up being terribly slow. That said, I wouldn't say that it destroys attrition. It makes attrition a very different game, though. Its no longer "Every injury sustained in the dungeon is one less hit you can take from the dragon at the end", so much as its hitting both the party's wallet, and setting them up for that point of "well bollocks, we just ran out of charges on the healing wand, and we're only halfway into the dungeon." Plus, if the party is incapable of safely standing around for long enough for the healing to take effect, it still matters as well (If they've taken 50 damage, that's 5 minutes of not progressing, unless they're willing to have damage during the next encounter or know they're not gonna get into combat, something that can't always be afforded). As far as fast healing, that's a bit trickier to get as an always-on sort of deal. My go-to means i have to be willing to ditch 4 levels and locks my race into soemthing that's not gonna give much other than those levels. 5 levels if i want to sink a +1 level adjustment template on a race of actual choice (warshaper is amazing, don't get me wrong, but i don't always want to be a changeling or a quasilycanthrope). Other than that...uh...persisting mass lesser vigor is nice, but takes a good chunk of resource and is vulnerable to dispel (which is a wonderful attrition spell! why burn out their HP when you can burn out their real power, their spells!) Can't think of much else off the cuff to get constant fast healing.

I mean, that's not to say you're doing it wrong if you dislike it, but I don't think it cuts out what you're talking about, it just cuts out one, fairly narrow avenue of what you're talking about.

[Necroticplague]

Can't think of much else off the cuff to get constant fast healing.

Feral template, silithar healing blood graft.

[Forrestfire]

Draconic Aura (Vigor) works as well. Well, not as well, because of the half health thing.

[eggynack]

Don't forget arbitrary wild shape stuff, like thoon elder brain, or cryohydra form.

[Thiyr]

*Lots of fast healing stuff I didn't remember*

Fair enough, though the mentioned limit on the aura makes it less appealing, and it'd take some extra jiggering to get fast healing out of wild shape (It's usually a natural special ability for hydras, and i'm...not seeing -anything- particularly healy about the thoon elder brain, though i may be missing something. Admittedly, there's always the "you wild shaped so you get hp back", but including that's a bit of a stretch) As for Feral, I tend to block SS out of mind for the most part. Just...yea.

And while your reminding me of healing blood is amazing and reminds me of why i love grafts (oh grafts, such a fun idea!), it also reminds me of why i hate grafts (Oh healing blood, how expensive you are! Seriously, 182k? Eesh, if that's all you want, you can get it at 15th, and even up to 20 it's a sizable chunk of your expected wbl. )


That said, I stick to my original assertion: fast healing is still fairly tricky to get going continuously. Feral is prob the easiest option, healing blood the most build-neutral, drac aura is probably the earliest available (even if its also easily the worst of those options), and if you're turning into a hydra of any sort, fast healing is PROBABLY not the biggest worry the DM should be having :P

[eggynack]

It'd take some extra jiggering to get fast healing out of wild shape (It's usually a natural special ability for hydras, and i'm...not seeing -anything- particularly healy about the thoon elder brain, though i may be missing something.
Both the hydra and the thoon elder brain feature fast healing as an Ex special ability, which is a thing pretty easily accessible through enhance wild shape, or a thing pretty difficult to access through master of many forms (I don't know of other methods for non-animal forms, though they may exist). The brain's fast healing is admittedly hard to find though, because it's written next to HP, rather than in the special qualities area. The list of forms also opens up some if you include regeneration, as plant forms like yellow musk creeper and octopus tree have that ability.

[gooddragon1]

Draconic Aura (Vigor) works as well. Well, not as well, because of the half health thing.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232171-Is-it-possible-to-use-martial-spirit-stance-like-this#post12693166


MARTIAL SPIRIT
Devoted Spirit (Stance)
Level: Crusader 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

As you cleave through your foes, each ferocious attack you make lends vigor and strength to you and your allies. While you are in this stance, you or an ally within 30 feet heals 2 points of damage each time you make a successful melee attack. This healing represents the vigor, drive, and toughness you inspire in others. Your connection to the divine causes such inspiration to have a real, tangible effect on your allies’ health. Each time you hit an opponent in melee, you can choose a different recipient within range to receive this healing.

1> You have this stance up.
2> You make a melee touch attack against an ally and as a free action shout out "Tag you're it!" or "Intensified cure minor wounds!" or "Hokuto Shin Ken no Ougi: Sekkatsuko!"
3> You or an ally within 30 feet regains 2 hp

Pending on your reading of the last sentence you can say that it's an option or a must to switch targets.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Do your DMs allow fast healing/wands of healing? Because to me it seems like as long as you have fast healing 1, or wand of cure light/moderate wounds it destroys an entire aspect of the game: attrition. Chances are you will have plenty of time between combats that any amount of fast healing will bring you straight back to full HP. Where is the fun in that? How is that fair? I've never had it from someone else's perspective besides my circle of dnd friends but it just seems completely ridiculous to have items like wands of healing or any class/template that offers fast healing. It removes HP and healing spells as a resource outside of combat, which is a huge part of dungeon crawling and adventuring in general in my eyes. Am I unique in this opinion?

What are your guys' thoughts on this?


My thought is that it entirely depends on the style of campaign and adventure you're running. Lots of games will have no need for attrition-based mechanics because of rocket-tag. Others will have lots of healing. Others won't have either one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You still run out of spells and daily uses of your abilities. Not allowing healing items just means one of your players is forced into the healbot role.
There may be people who enjoy being a walking bandaid but they're in the minority.

[Thiyr]

Both the hydra and the thoon elder brain feature fast healing as an Ex special ability, which is a thing pretty easily accessible through enhance wild shape, or a thing pretty difficult to access through master of many forms (I don't know of other methods for non-animal forms, though they may exist). The brain's fast healing is admittedly hard to find though, because it's written next to HP, rather than in the special qualities area. The list of forms also opens up some if you include regeneration, as plant forms like yellow musk creeper and octopus tree have that ability.

Okay, I see what I missed, didn't think to look into the actual entry for fast healing, was expecting it to have the standard Ex tag, that does make it easier than if it were a natural special ability. And why did they put the thoon's fast healing up there? Stupid grumble inconsistent editing grumble -fistshake-

Still, if you're taking forms like those just for the fast healing, that's...almost commendable.

[Dalebert]

First off, it seems like you'd have to do some heavy-handed house-ruling to stop this kind of healing. You'd have to choose to make healing items more expensive to make and buy. I think it's become pretty standard to heal up between fights and that's been figured into challenge ratings. Choosing to make that less standard or just making your cleric or other casters blow more of their spells/day on this just means you'll need to make combats less challenging which I think potentially makes the game less fun. The enemies are probably almost always starting out with full health after all. The PCs are already managing other resources like their spells and other limited-usage abilities. This just makes playing a cleric or other character with heals have to be more focused on just one thing and therefore less fun for them.

[Doug Lampert]

You still run out of spells and daily uses of your abilities. Not allowing healing items just means one of your players is forced into the healbot role.
There may be people who enjoy being a walking bandaid but they're in the minority.

No one is forced to healbot, under such rules I feel quite confident that my group's party would be something like four clerics, a druid, and a bard and would do fine healing wise without anyone being a healbot.

Restrict healing in ways the game isn't designed for, and they'll compensate by making sure they have enough healing from other sources.

Now, if some idiot tried to play a fighter or similar class in such a game, I suspect the other players would politely inform him that they do not work for him, and if he can't heal them then they're under no obligation to heal him unless he brings something unique to the table, and "fighting" doesn't qualify as unique since the party above has 7 fighters out of 6 PCs (there's an animal companion).

Note that the "all casters all the time" party with everyone also able to melee has far more endurance than a standard type party that depends on magic sticks of CLW, because they'd have far more spell slots.

Rules against magic sticks of CLW hardly handicap casters at all, but they cripple mundanes. Avoid mundanes and you don't need a healbot. The last BtB 3.x game I GMed had a mixed party of 8, all but one pure casters IIRC, but no one accused the lone mundane of being the load, because he could still do stuff and they had wands of CLW to keep him going so the added drain on available casting wasn't important.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No one is forced to healbot, under such rules I feel quite confident that my group's party would be something like four clerics, a druid, and a bard and would do fine healing wise without anyone being a healbot.
...

So would most of the groups i play with, but that's hardly the point. The game is already biased enough in favor of casters, there's no reason to make it worse. Many people actually enjoy mundane characters, if only to avoid all the bookkeeping that comes with being a caster.

I really don't see how limiting access to healing items improves the game for anyone. I doubt any cleric player has more fun only casting the same 5-6 spells over and over instead of getting to play and experiment with his entire spell list. And there's parties who don't have a divine caster at all. Why force the choice on someone who wants to play something different?
If someone actually wants to play a healer, they can. It's not a particularly efficient choice but it will save them some money, so it's not entirely pointless.

[eggynack]

Still, if you're taking forms like those just for the fast healing, that's...almost commendable.
Except you're really not. We're talking about what might just be the two most powerful melee combat wild shape forms in the whole game, the hydra with its ability to use all of its attacks as a standard action, and the brain with its ability to cast a spell and beat face in the same round.

[Necroticplague]

Except you're really not. We're talking about what might just be the two most powerful melee combat wild shape forms in the whole game, the hydra with its ability to use all of its attacks as a standard action, and the brain with its ability to cast a spell and beat face in the same round.

I think that's the point. For those two forms, the fast healing is a cherry on top of the nice sundae of horrific action economy abuse, so just taking them because of the fast healing is relatively benign reasoning.

[Kudaku]

Not only do I allow healing wands, when I GM I actively encourage the party to use them.

[Thiyr]

I think that's the point. For those two forms, the fast healing is a cherry on top of the nice sundae of horrific action economy abuse, so just taking them because of the fast healing is relatively benign reasoning.

Eeeeeexactly. If your druid ever goes "Man, I could use some -healing-. Let's turn into a CRYOHYDRA! I'll turn into a bear or something when combat starts though, bears are AWESOME", they deserve an award. And a cookie. Maybe an award that IS a cookie.

Which reminds me, should check in on cookie clicker :P

[eggynack]

I think that's the point. For those two forms, the fast healing is a cherry on top of the nice sundae of horrific action economy abuse, so just taking them because of the fast healing is relatively benign reasoning.
I just don't really think I indicated that that would be the only reason for taking the forms. Really, the main idea would be that fast healing comes in useful shells, which means that it's a reasonably easy ability to get under the right circumstances. Thus, in the same way that being a troll is a bad way to get fast healing/regen because that's an actively harmful shell, being a druid with aberration wild shape and becoming a thoon elder brain is a good way to get fast healing/regen, because it's an actively awesome shell. It's not like you're putting together a ton of druid levels and feats just for this one ability.