The failings of the Favored Soul?

[ngilop]

Hey everybody, now before I get off ino the actualiy of my post here, I do know the favored soul is 'tier' 2 and one of the big boys on the block.

And saying "Cleric does it better" is not at all getting to the point and rather aggravates me to no end at how most people always end up with the advice of "play 'tier' 1 class instead"

I just want to know where favored soul falls flat sort of

For me its the lack of Know: religion ( how is the favored champion of a diety NOT get that skill?)

and

the have to wait until fregging 17th level to get wings...

also to compound my anger towards WoTC and how they shafted the poor old warriors from 2nd ed, the favored soul fluff is basically -paladin- and that crap is not right

so I think the fluff needs redone somehow to make it less paladin-ie and more something more unique.

but in the end I come to the GiTP forum goers and hope that they can enlighten me on why the favored soul is not loved as much as I would imagine a 'tier' 2 class should be.

[hymer]

Considered with no comparison to other full divine casters, FS doesn't fall flat. It has a few bits of weirdness, like what you mentioned combined with two spellcasting stats, but the class is mechanically fine.
I think it mainly falls flat once you compare it to its most direct equivalent: The UA spontaneous cleric.

[Agincourt]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is the split casting stat. Save DCs are determined by Wisdom, but ability to cast a spell is determined by Charisma. Obviously, the more good stats you need to have, the harder it is to be good.

The next biggest problem is the lack of turning/rebuking. There are a lot of feats that are powered by turning/rebuking, most notably Divine Metamagic, but others as well. That forecloses a bunch of cleric builds.

I'd say lack of wings until level 17 is not that big a problem. It just is not a boost when it comes. A Favored Soul has access to spells that fly.

But, yes, you are right. Favored Souls are still Tier 2 and a pretty good choice for anyone who wants to avoid overshadowing the rest of the party or wants more of a challenge than just playing a Tier 1.

[nedz]

For me its the lack of Know: religion ( how is the favored champion of a diety NOT get that skill?)


On the Dead levels article on the WotC site it says you can swap Know:Arcana for Know:Religeon.
But you could be playing a character whom the god has chosen without the character knowing anything about it. RL Religions are full of such characters though obviously I can't go into the details on this Forum.

FS lack Turn Undead and Domains and are twin statted also. The lack of domains has always puzzled me: Here you have the chosen of a god but they don't get the spells for which the deity is best known for. Note that many domain spells don't appear on the standard list. A better approach would have been to give them all of a deities domain with perhaps a few, or even no, other spells known.

UA does contain rules for Spontaneous Clerics (and Druids) which is a better T2 Cleric for all of the above reasons.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if you could use the wind priest from Lost Empires of Faerun but no domains to fix it.

[Shining Wrath]

Two casting stats.

And can't turn undead. Seriously?

[Psyren]

but in the end I come to the GiTP forum goers and hope that they can enlighten me on why the favored soul is not loved as much as I would imagine a 'tier' 2 class should be.

A few reasons they are not more popular:

1) They have next to no class features so you are encouraged to PrC out.
2) Most PrCs that fit them require Turn/Rebuke which limits your options (basically Sacred Exorcist, or a dip that loses CL)
3) They are MAD so they tend to get pigeonholed into "saveless" builds (summoning or buffing/gishing)
4) They have to spend spells known on many situational yet useful spells that clerics can simply get for free (e.g. Remove Blindness, Remove Disease/Poison, the Cure X line, various divinations etc.)
5) Some DMs don't like that they can't fall (so a Favored Soul of Ilmater can go around being a jerk with few consequences outside of fiat.)

The fluff I honestly like (though I think the Oracle's is even better) and I also enjoy turning them into "super-paladins" with Sacred Exorcist, Prestige Paladin and Fist of Raziel, with Greater Planar Ally to serve as a mount.

[Kantolin]

I would like to note that tier 2 is not 'bad'. Tier 2 is 'game breaking power'. Favored Souls have game breaking power.

It'd be (a bit) more balanced if clerics casted like favored souls, for example, so favored souls being weaker than clerics is not a bad thing.

Still, they are pretty similar to clerics and not dramatically weaker, so it's natural to compare the two.

If you ask me, to make it more unique, I'd give favored souls a list of abilities that are thematically fitting for their deity. A favored soul of Boccob should be a lot more castery than a favored soul Kord (Who should perpetually be in your face), yet both get weapon specialization for some reason. They really should /feel/ different. Perhaps spontaneous casting from a variety of thematically appropriate domains. Maybe take a page from the shugenja - over half your spells are from your theme, and make the theme a little variable depending on your deity.

Of course, ironically, this would probably make them weaker as it would limit their list. They'd get more thematic, though.

If the goal is just to make them more powerful, make their casting purely Cha-based and give them turning, blam. Feel free to give them wings at a lower level, of course, but it's not that focal for a favored soul - they can use spells to fly.

[heavyfuel]

I would like to note that tier 2 is not 'bad'. Tier 2 is 'game breaking power'. Favored Souls have game breaking power.

This is so right. I mean, jeez, any half decent FS will still make most Fighter-types feel like they were born in the wrong plane.

One point that I feel hasn't been touched enough though, is that most parties will try to replace the Cleric for a FS. This is bad for the party. I know OP said that the "cleric can do better" argument is silly, and I agree, but this requires special mention. Any character that's been screwed - by getting blinded, deafened, cursed, killed, taking permanent ability damage, losing a limb, or any number of thing - can be brought back into action the standard action after the Cleric finishes preparing his spells. And this doesn't hold true to FS, not unless your party is ready to spend a larger sum of their WBL on scrolls and wands.

Basically, playing a FS raises party expectations too highly. The party probably expects you to handle general healing (not just HP), be able to buff them, and then throw some other spells to finish the deal. This is because these things are the things the average Cleric does (as in, not every Cleric is DMM Persist Clerizilla, or a Twice Betrayer, or abusing Lesse Planar Ally to get Wishes at lv 7 (or was it 11?))

Add the fact that they also have average martial stats and get both WFocus and Spec for free, it implies that they should be the secondary/tertiary melee to the party. Now, we all know that doesn't really work. Everyone here knows that if you focus on fighting you'll do better than the Fighter. But that's not the point.

The point is that now there's an additional role you're expected to fill. But because of MAD, limited spell knowledge and not great spells per day (the same as Sorc, even though the Wizard - Sorc's prepared counterpart - gets less spells than the Cleric - FS's prepared counterpart), you just can't.

Speaking of whic, lets compare the FS to the Sorc. Both Tier 2, both spontaneous casters.

Sorc drew the short stick when it came to the chassis and half the spells known as well (that hurts more than anything). But also has access to a (arguably) better spell list, more splat book love, plenty of PrCs that can be entered without jumping through hoops, and has a familiar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

There's also the lowered expectations from party members the FS sets so high. The sorcerer isn't expected to do a bunch of things. He never was. He is expected to do one single unique thing, and that thing incredibly well, and then do a handful of other things ok-ishly.

The extra spells known just doesn't cut it for the FS because he's not gonna live up to the usual divine caster potential, and will be found lacking in both spells known and spell slots.

Even after all this, is it all comes down to what I quoted on the beginning from Kantolin. The FS is still a very, very, powerfull class. To the point that a well played one will give most DMs nightmares. So even if he's weaker the Cleric, his biggest flaw is just falling short atop his mountain of power.

[bekeleven]

Sorc drew the short stick when it came to the chassis and half the spells known as well (that hurts more than anything). But also has access to a (arguably) better spell list, more splat book love, plenty of PrCs that can be entered without jumping through hoops, and has a familiar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).Personally I rank the full-casting spell lists:*
*Archivist omitted for obvious reasons


Sorcerer List (Sorc/Wiz plus Wings of Cover, etc.)
Wizard List (Sorc/Wiz plus Lubrucation, etc)
Cleric List W/Domains and Initiate (Some of my favorite spells are initiate-only or domain-only)
Cleric List W/Domains
Druid List
Cleric List W/Initiate (Initiate spells are GREAT, but you only get a few)
Cleric List (Base)
Beguiler List
Dread Necro List
Warmage List
Healer List


So, I'd say that the Favored soul drops its spell list 2-3 ranks, from "OP and Gamebreaking" to "OP and Gamebreaking."

[Gavinfoxx]

I just play Mystics instead.

[heavyfuel]

Personally I rank the full-casting spell lists:*
*Archivist omitted for obvious reasons


Sorcerer List (Sorc/Wiz plus Wings of Cover, etc.)
Wizard List (Sorc/Wiz plus Lubrucation, etc)
Cleric List W/Domains and Initiate (Some of my favorite spells are initiate-only or domain-only)
Cleric List W/Domains
Druid List
Cleric List W/Initiate (Initiate spells are GREAT, but you only get a few)
Cleric List (Base)
Beguiler List
Dread Necro List
Warmage List
Healer List


So, I'd say that the Favored soul drops its spell list 2-3 ranks, from "OP and Gamebreaking" to "OP and Gamebreaking."

Pretty much agree with the list, though I'd put Healer on top of Dread Necro if at high levels (dem Gates be strong yo)

But what do you mean by ""OP and Gamebreaking" to "OP and Gamebreaking.""?

[SciChronic]

i think the biggest reason that favored soul falls to tier 2 is the same reason sorcerer is tier 2, the spells available is limited to what your character has decided to learn, while clerics and wizards spells change by the day

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Pretty much agree with the list, though I'd put Healer on top of Dread Necro if at high levels (dem Gates be strong yo)

But what do you mean by ""OP and Gamebreaking" to "OP and Gamebreaking.""?

I suspect what he means is that they're all OP and gamebreaking. All animals are equal, just some are more equal than others.

[Thurbane]

I recently finished playing a FS in our RHoD game. Their main issues that I found were 1.) dual-casting stats, 2.) lack of class features (i.e. underwhelming class features) and 3.) sorry to say it, but yes, they really, really do come across of the Cleric's sad little cousin. It's almost impossible not to make the comparison.

I will be running one as an NPC in my game, but I've given him the Lost Tradition feat and letting him cast off Int.

The one I ran in RHoD was a low point buy, which meant I had to dump Wis and so couldn't really take any spells with a save, so my offensive options were quite limited.

Oh, and the ability to cast in heavy armor, but not getting the proficiency to do so without multi-classing or spending a feat is really annoying - yet another way they fall short of Cleric.

[Marlowe]

The really astonishing thing is that FS still gets a lot more mention than the other two classes in Complete Divine.

[Gnaeus]

Personally I rank the full-casting spell lists:*
*Archivist omitted for obvious reasons


Sorcerer List (Sorc/Wiz plus Wings of Cover, etc.)
Wizard List (Sorc/Wiz plus Lubrucation, etc)
Cleric List W/Domains and Initiate (Some of my favorite spells are initiate-only or domain-only)
Cleric List W/Domains
Druid List
Cleric List W/Initiate (Initiate spells are GREAT, but you only get a few)
Cleric List (Base)
Beguiler List
Dread Necro List
Warmage List
Healer List



I would list the druid list twice as well. Druid list assuming the animal companion and wildshape (like a core Druid) is much better than druid list without animal companion and wildshape (like a Spirit Shaman) because they have a lot of spells that are vastly less impressive without actually being on a Druid.

[Firechanter]

The lack of Domain access and Turn Undead is one thing. Even without Domains, just access to TU would make a FS so much more interesting. Of course, dipping a level of Cleric would remedy this, but at this point you kinda have to ask yourself why you're not playing a straight Cleric to begin with.

"More Spells per Day" is definitely not a good reason. Your casting lags behind due to that unlucky "Sorcerer Bump" in the road. At the end of the day, you just have about 1 more slot per level than a Cleric.

Also, some of the specials that a FS gets seem more like a mockery to me. Like what, +2 to damage with a single weapon, at friggin level 12? Who are they kidding! Or the aforementioned Wings at level 17. Puh-leeze.

Now don't get me wrong, FSs can be fun to play, and can be skilled to awesome battle machines. But that is largely contingent on spell selection and raw casting power, and has nothing to do with their class features. And I guess _that_ is what bugs people.

FTR, I currently play a FS x / Clr 1, picking Domains that grant one-time boons or swapping them out for Devotion feats. Main thing is I get TU to fuel Devotion Feats and DMM. Brutal. I did pick a handful of restorative spells (such as Lesser Restore), but most spells go into combat buffs, of course. Still contemplating whether I should add 2 Paladin levels.

[eggynack]

I would list the druid list twice as well. Druid list assuming the animal companion and wildshape (like a core Druid) is much better than druid list without animal companion and wildshape (like a Spirit Shaman) because they have a lot of spells that are vastly less impressive without actually being on a Druid.
It is also notable that the wild shape and animal companion actually kinda are spells. We create a mental separation between the two, because that's how the "Primary casters rock" paradigm works, but bat form basically just is a better form of overland flight with some stat buffs, and bear form basically just is something like a persistent righteous might, while the animal companion is just your standard long term minionmancy spell. That's also leaving out feat based stuff, where you start getting spell effects like long duration 3.0 haste, and energy immunity of various flavors. Druid spells are better with a druid as the base, but the druid list is fundamentally longer when you factor those class features in.

[Psyren]

I dug up my old "super paladin" build: Favored Soul 7/Dragonslayer 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Fist of Raziel 9 gets you:

- 9th-level spells
- +17 BAB at 20
- Proficiencies (all martial weapons, all shields including tower shields, heavy armor, deity's favored weapon)
- Divine Grace
- Fear Immunity
- Detect Evil at will
- Turn Undead (for divine feats)
- Constant Magic Circle Against Evil (Su, CL = ECL)
- Smite Evil 6/day (Holy + Confirming + Fiendsmite + Chaining)
- Double damage to evil objects and constructs
- Deity's Weapon Focus
- Resist Energy 10 (your choice)

You also get a very weak mount, but you have GPA and Gate to get something better to ride around on instead. (I recommend a Solar :smalltongue:)


It is also notable that the wild shape and animal companion actually kinda are spells. We create a mental separation between the two, because that's how the "Primary casters rock" paradigm works, but bat form basically just is a better form of overland flight with some stat buffs, and bear form basically just is something like a persistent righteous might, while the animal companion is just your standard long term minionmancy spell. That's also leaving out feat based stuff, where you start getting spell effects like long duration 3.0 haste, and energy immunity of various flavors. Druid spells are better with a druid as the base, but the druid list is fundamentally longer when you factor those class features in.

This goes treble in Pathfinder, where Wild Shape actually does function like a collection of several spells which are notably not on the druid list, and makes those spells both long-lasting and undispellable.

[HammeredWharf]

Favored Souls is just very bland. It's Cleric, but without Cleric's best class features. Of course, the "play a T1" argument is often silly, but at least in the Fighter vs. Wizard case, the former gets fighter bonus feats and a better BAB. Favored Souls dosn't really get anything that could set it apart. It could be alright if there were some decent spontaneous divine caster PRCs, but there aren't any I can think of.

[ngilop]

Hmm.. ok so I have some ponderings then about a possible Favored Soul Fix ( and im not talking about hey lets make this guy more powerful bwargh!)

Q1) What can one do to separate the favored soul from the paladin fluff wise and to a lesser extent mechanics wise

Q2) Having a Domain would be good yes/no?

Q3) Not really turn undead, because I fel that should be a cleric's schtick.. BUT what about something else like mm Divine Touch or some such like that?

Q4) How about we go cure/inflict X wound automaticall known depending on if you are good or evil ( or whatever if you are neutral)?

A1 I have no idea bout the fluff, but yeah.. mechanics wise get rid of those weapon focused class abilities, lower the wings to a decent level (id like 8th-12th) and make the energy resistance more pronounced.. alo I like making the favored soul be an outsider, gaining the half celestial/fiendish template as a capstone.. now to tie that in with the new favored soul fluff somehow

A2) I think maybe a single domain would be good myself

A3) I like this idea, not sure how I would actually word it.. it might take me a day or two to actually come up with something cool

A4) GENIUS IDEA ME!!! that way the FS don't have to 'waste' limited spell slots on the thing the standard cleric can do spontaneously

also for pople saying the favored soul is bland. take alook at the cleric EVERYTHING he gets come at level 1 here is literally 19 levels of NO clas abilities at all (minus casting) so that argument is BS

[Psyren]

Hey nobody's saying Cleric isn't bland too :smalltongue:

You left out the most obvious change i.e. make them Charisma-SAD.

Also, they should get Axiomatic/Resolute template (if lawful) or Anarchic template (if Chaotic.) TN... not sure if there is a TN template.

[Gnaeus]

Hmm.. ok so I have some ponderings then about a possible Favored Soul Fix ( and im not talking about hey lets make this guy more powerful bwargh!)

Before you work too hard, and since you basically seem to be doing this anyway, I'll just leave this here. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle

[Kantolin]

also for pople saying the favored soul is bland. take alook at the cleric EVERYTHING he gets come at level 1 here is literally 19 levels of NO clas abilities at all (minus casting) so that argument is BS

This is true.

Now that said, the cleric gets spontaneous casting, domains, and turn undead all at level one, which are collectively quite a few times more interesting than all of a favored soul's class features put together, so hey. Weapon specialization and energy resistance are not terribly exciting, while domains and turning enable extra options and spontaneous casting means you don't have to memorize cure spells, and then you're also paying via split casting.

Although you know... if the favored soul got literally all of his abilities at level 1, then he'd be somewhat strong at level 1 due to rather large DR for the level, large energy resistance to three things for the level, and wings... but if he got all of those at level 5, I think he'd be pretty manageable. That's a little sad, actually, as a mechanical comparison.

Still, keep in mind that favored souls are very potent. Remember people: Tier 2 doesn't suck. You don't need to give them a bonus spell known one below their highest spell level each level or sommat; they have gamebreaking power already, and if you're in a campaign that's potent enough that only optimized tier 1s need enter then you probably have bigger fish to fry. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

also for pople saying the favored soul is bland. take alook at the cleric EVERYTHING he gets come at level 1 here is literally 19 levels of NO clas abilities at all (minus casting) so that argument is BS
Dead levels aren't necessarily the end all and be all of blandness. With clerics, a major part of their not-blandness is the domains. Any cleric can be completely different from any other cleric, and be as such even before they pick their feats. You can make a cleric that perfectly fits into most archetypes out there, just by choosing wisely. They're powerful, diverse, and they continue to impact how your character grows and plays all the way to the end of the game. That's not bland at all.

[Sartharina]

I would like to note that tier 2 is not 'bad'. Tier 2 is 'game breaking power'. Favored Souls have game breaking power.In my experience, Tier 2 classes tend to be more boring and dull to play than Tier 4 classes. "Game-Breaking Power", not "Fun and diverse options to bring to the table."

Tier 2 - The game-breaking power of Tier 1, the flexibility and excitement of Tier 5. Except Psions, which are the only really fun Tier 2 class to play, because they were designed with a Tier 1 mindset.

[ngilop]

Before you work too hard, and since you basically seem to be doing this anyway, I'll just leave this here. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle

and this is just a freging jerk move as when peple ask what is wrong with the fighter the justs ay "WARBLADE!!""

how about you actually do something and add some advice instead o just being a huge jerk?

[Gnaeus]

and this is just a freging jerk move as when peple ask what is wrong with the fighter the justs ay "WARBLADE!!""

how about you actually do something and add some advice instead o just being a huge jerk?

If someone said that they wanted to take fighter, remove some feats, give him d12s and medium armor proficiency, and then make them tier 3 with a set of customizable per encounter powers based on a 9 level list like casters, I would totally ask if they had seen warblade.

Similarly, if someone says that they want an Favored Soul, but they want him to have a domain, and access to some granted powers, and give them cures/inflicts automatically, they should look at oracle. Your "fix" involves turning FS into Oracle. I don't know what kind of PF hatred generated this response, but you are totally Oraclizing the Favored Soul, and that is fine, but someone already did it and you are wasting your time with this particular "fix".

I mean seriously. It's like someone at Paizo had this exact discussion, up to the point where you talked about the class fixes, and then wrote the Oracle as a Favored Soul fix, but they couldn't call it a favored soul because FS isn't OGL.

[eggynack]

and this is just a freging jerk move as when peple ask what is wrong with the fighter the justs ay "WARBLADE!!""

how about you actually do something and add some advice instead o just being a huge jerk?
How about you recognize the fact that other classes can serve as reasons why a class is disliked. After all, were favored souls in the PHB instead of clerics, people probably wouldn't even notice much in the way of these issues. The ways in which warblades, and by extension, clerics, shine, illuminates the ways that fighters and favored souls do not. We can talk about how losing domains and turning just remove a ton of variety from both build and play, the ways in which spontaneous casting doesn't suit the cleric list, and just overall why the cleric works where the favored soul doesn't, and it's all rooted in that one question, "Why is the cleric a better class than the favored soul?"

We can ignore that analysis, work in a vacuum, but why would we? It just makes no sense. One of the best ways to know why something doesn't work is to look at something that does work and ask why. Similarly, the main reason why people say warblade in response to the question of what's wrong with fighters is because it's an accurate answer. Fighters need versatile, scaling abilities, that make them viable all the way to the end of their progression, actual decision making in combat, and hell, maybe even skill use. Warblades are fighters done right, and in the gap between the fighter and the warblade, you can see the answer to that question written plain as day. Also, seriously, the oracle thing was in response to your hopes for a fix, rather than to your question of why favored souls are disliked. Seems like a perfectly valid response.

[DeAnno]

One point that I feel hasn't been touched enough though, is that most parties will try to replace the Cleric for a FS. This is bad for the party. I know OP said that the "cleric can do better" argument is silly, and I agree, but this requires special mention. Any character that's been screwed - by getting blinded, deafened, cursed, killed, taking permanent ability damage, losing a limb, or any number of thing - can be brought back into action the standard action after the Cleric finishes preparing his spells. And this doesn't hold true to FS, not unless your party is ready to spend a larger sum of their WBL on scrolls and wands.

...

There's also the lowered expectations from party members the FS sets so high. The sorcerer isn't expected to do a bunch of things. He never was. He is expected to do one single unique thing, and that thing incredibly well, and then do a handful of other things ok-ishly.

I think this may be the heart of the matter, or at least a big chunk of it. A Spontaneous caster has a limited amount of tools in his box, so he must set the tempo, hammering square pegs into round holes and forcing reality to conform to his solution methods. Spontaneous casters have to act, not react. The expectations for an Arcanist, and to a lesser extent the strength of the Arcane spell list, is built on action, on doing things that require the enemy to respond. The expectations for a Divine caster have a lot more to do with reaction, doing things to respond to enemy action.

If I have to build a character to reverse any sort of condition or damage that might befall the party from a variety of threats, that is going to require a lot of spells, a lot of "answers". On the other hand, if I have to build a character that simply eliminates threats, that is only going to require a couple spells, a couple "questions" to ask, centered around the one big specialty question type your character is going to force all the threats to answer.

I think that reasoning might be part of why it's so much intuitively easier to build a Sorcerer than a Favored Soul.

[dextercorvia]

My ideas for a fix to Favored Soul.

Drop all the weapon based features. Gain Turn Undead at level 2-3. I honestly think the cleric gains it too early, too.

Gain one of their deities Domains at level 1. (Automatically add those spells to their list of spells known) They have the option of designating one slot of each level as a "Domain Slot" and then preparing a domain spell in that slot. Yes, preparing -- they basically get the domain version of Arcane Preparation, so if they want to metamagic something, they can.

Gain another domain at levels 5,10, and 15. If their chosen deity does not have 4 domains (they will probably PrC out before this anyway) they should work with the DM to find other thematic domains. (Seriously some deities have magic and not spell, others have celerity and not time, etc.)

I would sprinkle some of the Angel/Demon traits over the rest of the levels. Wings at 7, Scaling Energy Resistance based on Alignment (as is in Visage of the Deity), Disease Immunity, Scaling SR (Maybe 10+ Class Level), etc.

[Vhaidara]

Wait, maybe make them like dread necro? Over the course of the class, they acquire the Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend Template (base only, not the expanded ones from the web enhancement).

I would leave the weapon connection. They're supposed to be the more casty side of the fighter-cleric mix (Cleric->FS->Paladin->Fighter), but they should still be good with their god's weapon.

Domains are a definite. I would say they get all of the spells from their god's domains, plus Cure/Inflict and Heal/Harm, then the ability to grab a spell from the standard cleric list every even level (Eclectic learning style). Yes, I stole most of this from Grod's Cleric fix.

Cha based casting and turn undead would be nice, too.

[Psyren]

In my experience, Tier 2 classes tend to be more boring and dull to play than Tier 4 classes. "Game-Breaking Power", not "Fun and diverse options to bring to the table."

In 3.5 the T2 classes tend to lack class features (aside from their casting) so they do tend to feel bland. But in PF they have a great deal of variety that I feel addresses that issue.


and this is just a freging jerk move as when peple ask what is wrong with the fighter the justs ay "WARBLADE!!""

how about you actually do something and add some advice instead o just being a huge jerk?

There's no reason to get this worked up. It's a legitimate suggestion.

I mean, you could sit down and homebrew a favored soul replacement instead but you're in the wrong forum for that.

[Gnaeus]

In my mind, the jerk move would have been for me to wait until you spent hours thinking about and writing up your proposed list of fixes, and THEN to say, "hey, you just remade the Oracle". Any homebrew favored soul fix is sure to be compared with Oracle anyway, so you might as well be figuring out what you don't like about it and setting your class fix apart from it.

[dextercorvia]

In 3.5 the T2 classes tend to lack class features (aside from their casting) so they do tend to feel bland. But in PF they have a great deal of variety that I feel addresses that issue.

My PF experience is limited, but I really do enjoy what they did with Sorcerer there. In 3.5 I am much more likely to suggest a Wizard, so I can customize my feel and options. I feel the same about Cleric vs. Favored Soul. I guess I should check out the Oracle then.

[Thanatosia]

I think this may be the heart of the matter, or at least a big chunk of it. A Spontaneous caster has a limited amount of tools in his box, so he must set the tempo, hammering square pegs into round holes and forcing reality to conform to his solution methods. Spontaneous casters have to act, not react. The expectations for an Arcanist, and to a lesser extent the strength of the Arcane spell list, is built on action, on doing things that require the enemy to respond. The expectations for a Divine caster have a lot more to do with reaction, doing things to respond to enemy action.

If I have to build a character to reverse any sort of condition or damage that might befall the party from a variety of threats, that is going to require a lot of spells, a lot of "answers". On the other hand, if I have to build a character that simply eliminates threats, that is only going to require a couple spells, a couple "questions" to ask, centered around the one big specialty question type your character is going to force all the threats to answer.

I think that reasoning might be part of why it's so much intuitively easier to build a Sorcerer than a Favored Soul.
I think the Favored Soul designer already accounted for this however. The Favored Soul uses the same Spells per day progression as the Sorceror, but if you look, the spells known table is very different. Whenever a Favored Soul gains a new spell level, he immediately knows 3 spells of that level, unlike the 1 a sorceror gets. Similarly, favored souls max out at 6 spells known per spell level most of the time, while sorcerors max out at 4.

So basically Favored Souls get around 2 more spells known per spell level then a sorc does, and I think this was intended so he can pick up the mandatory tools like Restoration, Cure X, Panacea, Raise Dead, etc.

[Starbuck_II]

I think this may be the heart of the matter, or at least a big chunk of it. A Spontaneous caster has a limited amount of tools in his box, so he must set the tempo, hammering square pegs into round holes and forcing reality to conform to his solution methods. Spontaneous casters have to act, not react. The expectations for an Arcanist, and to a lesser extent the strength of the Arcane spell list, is built on action, on doing things that require the enemy to respond. The expectations for a Divine caster have a lot more to do with reaction, doing things to respond to enemy action.

If I have to build a character to reverse any sort of condition or damage that might befall the party from a variety of threats, that is going to require a lot of spells, a lot of "answers". On the other hand, if I have to build a character that simply eliminates threats, that is only going to require a couple spells, a couple "questions" to ask, centered around the one big specialty question type your character is going to force all the threats to answer.

I think that reasoning might be part of why it's so much intuitively easier to build a Sorcerer than a Favored Soul.

I say give Favored Soul a spontaneous spell casting method of Spirit Shaman.
So he knows all like a Cleric, but prepares a small amount each day to cast spontaneously of this.
A merger of the two castings.

[ngilop]

So, I think a cool idea would be for favored souls to, when they get a domain ( I like the 1st and at every 5th level dextercorvia suggested) that instead of getting bonus domain slots those spells are automatically added to the favored soul's spells known, they still gain the domain powers
that way it kind of takes away from the act vs react method of spell casting and spell selection that DeAnno spoke of.

I think forme the point of a favored soul is somehow you have a intimate conection with a deity and because of that connection overtime you become more and more like a servant of the deity (i.e. a celestial or fiend)


I have never heard of the axiomatic or anarchic templats are but they sound like the equivalent of celestial and fiendish.. not so much half celestial or half fiend. could you direct me to where I can find them (please do not tell me they are eberron, as I have zero of those books)

[AuraTwilight]

I believe they're in the Manual of the Planes; and they do indeed correlate to Celestial/Fiendish Creature.

[nedz]

If you look at Spontaneous Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) you will find that they have the same spells known as a Sorcerer but also add in the spells from their two domains. This gives them 7-5 spells known per spell level which is comparable to the Favoured Soul.

By RAW: adding domains to Favoured Souls does not increase their spells known, unlike Spontaneous Clerics.

Favoured Soul was first published in the Miniatures Handbook not Complete Divine — which was the first 3.5 book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16617440&postcount=761) outside of Core — so the class was very early in the life of 3.5

[Thurbane]

If I was going to "power up" the FS with a quick fix, I;d give it
- One casting stat (probably Cha)
- A Domain, with the domain spell being added as a bonus Spell Known at each level (possibly gaining a 2nd domain at level 8 or 10)
- Heavy armor proficiency
- Better skill list (adding Knowledge [religion]), and maybe 4 points/level

Actually, sounds a bit like the Dragonlance Mystic...

[Jeff the Green]

I'm okay with Favored Souls mechanically. The split casting stat hurts if you want to cast spells with DCs, but that's not a huge loss. It also kind of sucks that a lot of the Cleric list is situational, but that's not significantly more of a problem for Favored Souls than for Sorcerers. And turn undead would be a welcome addition, but given that it's pretty much either useless or overpowered, I'm okay with dropping it.

What I'm not okay with is a Favored Soul of Ilmater, one of Ilsensine, and one of Talona are mechanically no different. Unlike clerics, they're not restricted from casting spells opposed to their alignment and they don't have an alignment restriction. In fact, the only things your deity or alignment affect are your Weapon Proficiency/Focus/Specialization and whether your wings are feathered or bat-like.

ACFs improve this somewhat. Bahamut/Tiamat is genuinely unique and Drow and Favored of the Fiends are at least a step in the right direction. I've thought of a couple ACFs and substitution levels to improve this, like Turn Anathema (choose a creature type/subtype from the Ranger favored enemies list that is hated by your deity/church, and you can turn—but not destroy—them), specific bonus spells known, and a few others, but even those are bandaids.

[ngilop]

How would I go about slowly turning a favored soul into a half-celestial or half-fiend in regards to abilities

I do not really want to bump them up to tier 1

I think having a slowly esclaating metamorphosis into a half X would really put the FAVORED SOUL in ya know the favored soul

i think adding domains like i pondered domain abilities domain spells addds to the favored soul list would be good

i think adding a divine touch where depeing on the choice they cna cure X wounds or remove staus ailments 3 +cha a day would be decent. of course depending on the level of favored soul of course


I just am at a loss on how to incorpate the gradual change form a whatever to a half whatever.

[Vhaidara]

I just am at a loss on how to incorpate the gradual change form a whatever to a half whatever.

Look at Dread Necromancer and Lich. Funnily enough, that is the acquisition of a +4 LA template over the course of a 20 level base class :P

[ngilop]

Look at Dread Necromancer and Lich. Funnily enough, that is the acquisition of a +4 LA template over the course of a 20 level base class :P

AND DUH!!! this never crossed my mind at all LOL.

thanks

[Vhaidara]

Wait, maybe make them like dread necro? Over the course of the class, they acquire the Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend Template (base only, not the expanded ones from the web enhancement).

But...but...I mentioned it in my suggestion...:smallfrown:

[ngilop]

But...but...I mentioned it in my suggestion...:smallfrown:

Im sorry.. hows about a hug?

[Anlashok]

Keep in mind when talking about "improving" the favored soul you're talking about buffing one of the most powerful classes in the game. So conservative changes are best.

[bekeleven]

Keep in mind when talking about "improving" the favored soul you're talking about buffing one of the most powerful classes in the game. So conservative changes are best.

The thing is, you could easily "improve" the favored soul in a way that dropped it a tier. We're improving its attractiveness, because right now it's really boring and unappealing.

[Anlashok]

The thing is, you could easily "improve" the favored soul in a way that dropped it a tier. We're improving its attractiveness, because right now it's really boring and unappealing.

True. I'm just saying, because a lot of the fixes involve slapping a ton of templates and extra shenanigans on top and that's it.


and this is just a freging jerk move as when peple ask what is wrong with the fighter the justs ay "WARBLADE!!""

how about you actually do something and add some advice instead o just being a huge jerk?

This analogy is off. The Warblade is a different class who has similar flavor to the fighter but executes it in a different (and much stronger) mechanical way. Saying you don't want to play a Warblade has some merit because the two classes operate in different fashions.

The Oracle, however, is literally an updated/improved Favored Soul. Full stop. What's more, a lot of the stuff the oracle has is stuff that's been talked about in this thread anyways.

[Sartharina]

In 3.5 the T2 classes tend to lack class features (aside from their casting) so they do tend to feel bland. But in PF they have a great deal of variety that I feel addresses that issue.I do love the Pathfinder sorcerer, aside from the still-gimped casting progression, and ludicrously weak 'blasts' (I want to play with a houserule where cantrips deal that 1d6+1/2 level damage, and the X/Day+Cha blasts deal 1d6/2 levels damage), but those are more nitpicks than anything else (And a reason I like 5e's cantrips). Oh yeah - and bloodlines that grant permanent Flight as a 15th-level class feature having Overland Flight as an unreplacable 5th level spell at 13th level.

I kinda want to try the Oracle from Pathfinder, but I hate the fluff and curse mechanics. Favored Soul has Wings on its class feature! But they come online WAY too late!

[Telok]

The Favored Soul's class abilities (when compared to the Cleric) essentially end up as a good Reflex save, a free weapon focus where you don't get to choose the weapon, and the 5th and 10th level energy resistances. In exchange you lose Turning, Domains, heavy armor proficency, and suffer slower spell level access combined with either fewer bonus spells or lower spell DCs.

Plus the Cleric vs Favored Soul base spells per day at 16th level looks like this.

6 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
Thw simplest "fix" to the Favored Soul that I ever saw, that made them really distinct from Clerics, was to take away the 'spells known' and replace it with the diety's four domains. This opens up the domain powers, domain skills, some turning stuff, and makes the Favored Soul more aligned with the actual religion/god.

[TypoNinja]

My biggest problem with the Favoured Soul is the lack of Turn Undead. Why? Why ditch that? Its so thematically fitting!

I have other problems with the class, but most of them can be summed as follows;

It feels like they built Favoured Soul by taking things away from the Cleric as opposed to trying to make something unique.

[nedz]

At the time they wrote FS Turn Undead wasn't such a big deal. DMM and Devotion feats came later, and without those Turn Undead does only what it says on the tin.

[dextercorvia]

At the time they wrote FS Turn Undead wasn't such a big deal. DMM and Devotion feats came later, and without those Turn Undead does only what it says on the tin.

DMM and Domain feats appeared in Complete Divine along side the Favored Soul. Devotion feats did come later though.

Taking TU away Favored Souls is like taking the Familiar away from the Sorcerer.

[nedz]

DMM and Domain feats appeared in Complete Divine along side the Favored Soul. Devotion feats did come later though.

Taking TU away Favored Souls is like taking the Familiar away from the Sorcerer.

Favored Soul first appeared in Miniatures Handbook 2003/09
Complete Divine was published 2004/05
OK that's only 9 months, but still.

[Karnith]

At the time they wrote FS Turn Undead wasn't such a big deal. DMM and Devotion feats came later, and without those Turn Undead does only what it says on the tin.
There were actually a few Divine feats published in Defenders of the Faith (a 3.0 splatbook from 2001), though the only good one in that book that I remember was Divine Might.

[dextercorvia]

Favored Soul first appeared in Miniatures Handbook 2003/09
Complete Divine was published 2004/05
OK that's only 9 months, but still.

My mistake, I remembered that Warmage and Healer were in there, but I forgot that was the first showing of Favored Soul.

[Sartharina]

And, unfortuntately, I think the classes introduced in the Miniatures Handbook were deliberately underpowered, to be more 'support' classes for larger-scale battles than full PC classes.

[torrasque666]

DMM and Domain feats appeared in Complete Divine along side the Favored Soul. Devotion feats did come later though.

Taking TU away Favored Souls is like taking the Familiar away from the Sorcerer.

So it does nothing at all to hinder them then? Because while a Familiar does benefit a sorcerer(with the right choice) I rarely see it being a linchpin in a build, unlike where I usually see Turn Undead.

[Vhaidara]

So it does nothing at all to hinder them then? Because while a Familiar does benefit a sorcerer(with the right choice) I rarely see it being a linchpin in a build, unlike where I usually see Turn Undead.

Yes, but with the material published at the time of Favored Soul (No Devotions, DMM, or Divine feats, since FS came out first in Miniature's Handbook), TU wasn't lynchpin to any builds.

Also, +4 initiative familiars are pretty important, or ACFs that involve trading it out (which they couldn't take without it)

[nedz]

Well, as Karnith pointed out, there were a few 3.0 Divine feats — they just weren't very useful.

[Thurbane]

And, unfortuntately, I think the classes introduced in the Miniatures Handbook were deliberately underpowered, to be more 'support' classes for larger-scale battles than full PC classes.

This is probably true - funnily enough, FS is easily the highest tier class in the book. Warmage is a little lacking, even for a full caster. And the less said about healer, the better. Marshal is OK, but could have been better - I mean, why no full BAB?

[Seppo87]

I just play Mystics instead.
I like the Mystic's fluff better, but technically aren't they just inferior?
Less spells known, they can get about even with extra domains from PrCs. Same spells per day. Worse saves. No other features.

Am I missing something?

[Gavinfoxx]

Easy access to domains and devotion feats is... really important? And getting domains from PrC's means you end up with more domains on a Mystic than a FS?

[TypoNinja]

Yes, but with the material published at the time of Favored Soul (No Devotions, DMM, or Divine feats, since FS came out first in Miniature's Handbook), TU wasn't lynchpin to any builds.

Also, +4 initiative familiars are pretty important, or ACFs that involve trading it out (which they couldn't take without it)

I pretty much default to swapping my familiar for the ability to metamagic spontaneously as a sorcerer without the action penalty.

[dextercorvia]

So it does nothing at all to hinder them then? Because while a Familiar does benefit a sorcerer(with the right choice) I rarely see it being a linchpin in a build, unlike where I usually see Turn Undead.

Rather, I meant it is that iconic ability of god granted divine magic, like the familiar has been the sign of arcane knowledge. Both were intended to be thematic, rather than crucial. That they ended up overcompensating and making Turn Undead practically indispensable only makes it worse for the poor Favored soul.

Imagine if they hadn't given the sorcerer a familiar (and likewise never released Obtain Familiar), and then later released a feat that allowed your familiar to power free metamagic.

[Psyren]

Mystic can also freely cast domain spells instead of being limited to 1/level/day.


Mystics who choose Sun explicitly gain full Turning as well (though not the "Greater Turning" that Sun Clerics usually get.)

[nedz]

Rather, I meant it is that iconic ability of god granted divine magic, like the familiar has been the sign of arcane knowledge. Both were intended to be thematic, rather than crucial. That they ended up overcompensating and making Turn Undead practically indispensable only makes it worse for the poor Favored soul.

Imagine if they hadn't given the sorcerer a familiar (and likewise never released Obtain Familiar), and then later released a feat that allowed your familiar to power free metamagic.

So the problem is really DMM and the Devotion feats ?
You can live without them — even as a Cleric — but they are, obviously, very useful.

[Vhaidara]

I pretty much default to swapping my familiar for the ability to metamagic spontaneously as a sorcerer without the action penalty.

Like I said, ACFs that they couldn't take if they didn't have a familiar. What would you trade out if they weren't given a familiar? They have no other class features, not even bonus feats like Wizard. Meaning you would have to trade either spells known (generally an awful deal with sorc) or spells/day (not as bad, but still pretty bad)

[Seppo87]

Mystic can also freely cast domain spells instead of being limited to 1/level/day.


Mystics who choose Sun explicitly gain full Turning as well (though not the "Greater Turning" that Sun Clerics usually get.)
Doesn't technically a Favored Soul have access to spontaneous domain spells if it gains levels in prcs designed for the mystic class? (i.e citadel mystic 1)

[Psyren]

Without seeing those PrCs myself I couldn't say I'm afraid.

[nedz]

Doesn't technically a Favored Soul have access to spontaneous domain spells if it gains levels in prcs designed for the mystic class? (i.e citadel mystic 1)

That would be unusual: FS normally gets the domain granted power and the ability to select spells known from the domain list.

[Grim Reader]

The problm with the FS isn\t a lack of power. It is that it is a splatbook class that is totally overshadowed by a PHB class, the Cleric.

Seriously, mechanically its pretty difficult to level the FS up any build where a Cleric would not simply be better at all levels.

About the only thing I know of that you can do with a FS and not with a cleric can't is that if you can qualify for Sand Shaper, Desert Insight adds a lot of "Spells known".

Personally, I find refluffing it to be descended from Gods makes for better fluff. Meaning its spells are innate, divine power without dependency on any outside patron. The bad guys just write themselves. (And pick your on WF)

[Seppo87]

its spells are innate, divine power without dependency on any outside patron.
that's the Mystic