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Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 07:48 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance


The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.
Bolding mine.

An arcane spellcaster's eight hours of rest are required in order to clear the mind for spell preparation the following day. With the ring active, it should be possible for the spellcaster to act normally for the first six of those eight hours (with the exception of spellcasting, unless the character is willing to lose spell slots for the following day).

The usefulness of this would of course depend on the circumstances. If the party wizard always gets his eight hours, or if he doesn't sleep, the ring is useless for that particular purpose.

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 07:59 PM
The ring of sustenance only reduces your need for sleep, is does nothing to reduce the amount of rest needed to prepare arcane spells. The rules explicitly state that the wizard needs at least 8 hours of rest(not sleep) to prepare spells and that even elves who only need to sleep(trance) half as long still need at least 8 hours.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-03, 08:00 PM
It's only for the healing benefits, really, as sleep does nothing else for you...

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 08:10 PM
I'd tend to agree with the OP. Yes, spell preparation requires rest and not sleep ... but rest is a "benefit" of sleep. If you have had the equivalent of 8 hours sleep then you have also had the equivalent of 8 hours resting.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 08:16 PM
Then why do elves need to sit around on their asses for 4 hours after their meditation to renew their spells?

The RAW are quite clear on this point. You need 8 hours of rest no matter what to renew spells. There is only 1 item in all published WoTC D&D 3.5 books that changes this. It's in complete mage.

I think its quite stupid but its the rules, feel free to houserule though.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 08:23 PM
Then why do elves need to sit around on their asses for 4 hours after their meditation to renew their spells?
Because the rules specifically say so.

If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
As you say, the RAW is quite clear :)

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 08:31 PM
Yep. I Know exactly what the RAW says. But if you maintain that a Ring of Sustenance allows people to renew spells early and that the RAW supports that then it also supports elves not having to rest the full 8 hours (which it clearly doesn't do).

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 08:43 PM
But if you maintain that a Ring of Sustenance allows people to renew spells early and that the RAW supports that then it also supports elves not having to rest the full 8 hours (which it clearly doesn't do).
Elves don't sleep, so that particular ability of the ring doesn't apply to them.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 08:52 PM
*Sigh* page 15 of the PHB


an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 09:02 PM
I'm aware of that. The ring requires its bearer to sleep for two hours in order to gain the benefit of the equivalent of eight hours sleep, and elves do not sleep. An elf can no more use a Ring of Sustenance to aid its rest than a cleric can use a Holy Avenger to cast Greater Dispel Magic.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 09:05 PM
Grrr. Not the point. The point is that if a RoS renews spells in 2 hours then an elfs spells should be renewed in 4 hours. The wording on the abilities is near identical.

Both have been said to be rules illegal.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 09:20 PM
The wording on the abilities is near identical.
Be that as it may, the actual rule which prevents him from being to able to prepare spells after 4 is the rule I quoted ... and the rule I quoted is quite specific about when it applies.

If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 09:21 PM
It's well established that preparing arcane spells has nothing to do with the physical state of your body, but rather your mental state. Sleeping isn't even required to prepare arcane spells, wizards just usually sleep while resting for spells because it saves time (could you imagine wasting 16 hours each day to sleep then clear your mind). Arcane spells are horribly complex and impossible to prepare unless the mind is perfectly clear, a process that takes 8 hours of rest, no matter how much you sleep.

EDIT: Basically, unless the ring specifically says it reduces preperation time, it doesn't. No other ability that reduces sleep time does, thus there is no reason for the ring to be an exception unless it says so. D&D rarely leaves rules to be implied, if something doesn't say it does something, it usually doesn't.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 09:27 PM
It's well established that preparing arcane spells has nothing to do with the physical state of your body, but rather your mental state.
That's why the OP bolded the "and mind" part.

Sleeping isn't even required to prepare arcane spells, wizards just usually sleep while resting for spells because it saves time (could you imagine wasting 16 hours each day to sleep then clear your mind). Arcane spells are horribly complex and impossible to prepare unless the mind is perfectly clear, a process that takes 8 hours of rest, no matter how much you sleep.
You do not need 8 hours of sleep to get 8 hours of rest, but 8 hours of sleep do provide 8 hours of rest. There is a specific rule to explain what happens for creatures who don't sleep ... but that is irrelevant in this case, because you do.

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 09:29 PM
Grrr. Not the point. The point is that if a RoS renews spells in 2 hours then an elfs spells should be renewed in 4 hours. The wording on the abilities is near identical.
The difference is important here. Elves regain spells through meditation, and most other races regain them through sleep. If the ring allowed the wearer to rest for two hours in order to gain the benefits of eight hours sleep, then it would work the same for elves as it does for other races.


Both have been said to be rules illegal.

By whom? I did a search on this before posting and didn't find anything conclusive.

EDIT:

Basically, unless the ring specifically says it reduces preperation time, it doesn't.
Two hours of sleep with the ring active is equivalent of eight hours sleep and the benefit it provides. One of the benefits of eight hours sleep is spell renewal. Wouldn't the description have to specifically mention that this benefit is not provided by the ring?

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 09:36 PM
Elves regain spells through meditation, and most other races regain them through sleep.

Wrong! Elves regain their physical strength and heal through medatation, they regain their spells from rest. You are resting while you trance, just like you rest while you are asleep, but rest != sleep/trance.

As for the "mind" part of the ring, that line is flavor, and irrelevent to the rules. If something doesn't say it does something, it doesn't.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 09:45 PM
RAW, Rules of the Game, and Errata.

The rules specifically state that you need 8 hours of restful calm to regain spells. 8 Hours of sleep is stated to count as 8 hours of restful calm but no matter how little sleep you need to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep it doesn't count as restful calm.

Basically: Restful Calm = Sleep but Sleep != Restful Calm

Page 178 of the PHB. Near the top of the page.

Various other sources and articles go into more detail but that is the root reason.

The only item that reduces the amount of sleep needed to prepare spelsl is Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (page 132 of Complete Mage)

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 10:14 PM
Resting is a benefit of sleep. The rule which prevents elves from preparing spells after gaining the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is quite specific, and completely irrelevant. "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason ..."

PS. I consider the FAQ RAW ... but not the rules of the game articles.

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 10:18 PM
The rules specifically state that you need 8 hours of restful calm to regain spells.
Guess we're going by different rules then.


To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time...
Four hours of uninterrupted restful calm followed immediately by four hours of sleep (or vice versa) is as good as eight hours sleep.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 10:38 PM
Very true. But sleep does not count as restful calm in and of its self. Your physical state while sleeping happens to also be restful calm but sleep doesn't replace restful calm.

Sleep is you laying in a location for 8 hours without moving or talking or taking any action harder then rolling over. Restful Calm is satisfied in the same way (staying still for 8 hours) but regaining spells isn't a benefit of sleeping its a benefit of restful calm.

This post prolly makes little sense as I'm not wording this very clearly and I'll try to fix it up later if there are any comprehension problems.

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 10:51 PM
Think of it like this.

I need to exercise and play basketball. When I'm playing basket ball, I am exercising, but when I'm exercising I'm not neccesarly playing basketball, I could be walking, jogging, swimming, whatever.

Now replace exercise with "Restful Calm", and basketball with sleeping. When sleeping you are resting and regaining your spells, but resting and sleeping still arn't the same thing.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 11:01 PM
Lets try to make the exact substitution you are suggesting ...

"When I'm playing basket ball, I am exercising" -> "When I'm sleeping, I am <gaining> restful calm"

Ah yes, sleep gives you rest ... so you agree?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 11:11 PM
PinkysBrain, now the rest of it.

but when I'm gaining restful calm I'm not necessarily sleeping

PinkysBrain
2007-03-03, 11:12 PM
But how is that relevant?

Yes, there are other ways of gaining restful calm ... but we aren't really interested in those. We are interested in what 8 hours of sleep gets you.

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 11:14 PM
...regaining spells isn't a benefit of sleeping its a benefit of restful calm.

Hmm... I suppose that's true, considering the spell renewal requirements for elves. I'm not entirely convinced though, as the ring gives eight hours of (presumably restful) sleep and the benefits that entails (the only other one I know of is the removal of fatigue). Without the benefits, the numbers given are oddly precise for being purely flavour. Additionally, the SRD makes rest a substitute for sleep, not the other way round. If sleep were not the primary means of spell renewal, non-sleeping races would not require their own rules.

EDIT: *rereads post from beginning to end* And this is why you should not spend several minutes thinking about one paragraph.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-03, 11:16 PM
...
To use the basketball analogy; playing basketball isn't exercise because of what it is but because your heart rate is increasing.

Sleep isn't restful calm because you are sleeping but because when you sleep you happen to be staying still and not doing any stressful activity. That staying still and not doing any stressful activity is the part that counts as restful calm NOT the fact that you happen to be asleep at the time.

Rawhide
2007-03-03, 11:24 PM
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a


The description of the ring of sustenance says the user gets all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. How does this affect a bard, sorcerer, or wizard who wants to regain spells? Specifically, how does this interact with the casting limit rule in the Player’s Handbook?

In the case of a ring of sustenance, “all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep” means the character sleeps for 2 hours and regains 1 hit point per level (see the rules for natural healing on Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). If the ring wearer is fatigued, 2 hours of sleep removes the fatigue.

A wizard must have 8 hours of rest before regaining spells. If the wizard doesn’t have to sleep for some reason, she still requires 8 hours of rest to regain any spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells on page 177 of the Player’s Handbook). A ring of sustenance doesn’t change that.

A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that.

A ring of sustenance also doesn’t exempt the wearer from the casting limit rule. Whenever a spellcaster gets a new set of spells, any spell slot she used in the last 8 hours is not available. This rule has nothing to do with how much sleep the spellcaster gets; it reflects how long a spell slot must remain empty before the character can refill it. The ring doesn’t make 8 hours pass, so it doesn’t help the character refill the used spell slot.

Sutremaine
2007-03-03, 11:30 PM
Ah well, nice try.

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 11:31 PM
D&d Faq Ftw

Ramza00
2007-03-03, 11:46 PM
The RAW are quite clear on this point. You need 8 hours of rest no matter what to renew spells. There is only 1 item in all published WoTC D&D 3.5 books that changes this. It's in complete mage.

Great item by the way. Something Bedroll in complete mage.

I am planning on in an upcoming campaign to be in a group with at least 3 arcane spellcasters going into the Red Wizard prc (it will be a flavor game where the party is predominantly red wizards, everyone will also have leadership). With this item you can use 1 hour to rest and regain your spells (spell slots used in the last 8 hours are not regained though) and then enter into one circle magic (each circle takes 1 hour).

After designating a leader and doing the circle magic and giving up spells, you repeat the process with a new leader to boost his caster level/give him free metamagic. All done during the typical cycle of rest.