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View Full Version : Rules Q&A Can effects like Enervation or Fell Drain hit a target multiple times?



AnonymousPepper
2014-08-01, 03:05 AM
Say I'm a caster of some sort. I have Fell Drain taken, and I'm a kobold Sorc5/Inc10 with Practical Metamagic: Fell Drain, so I'll naturally want to be slinging Fell Drain around all day. Say that I hit a target in two consecutive rounds with a total of four Fell Drain (and empowered, not that that matters here) Orbs of Force (using Arcane Spellsurge). Does the target take one negative level (only the first hit applies a neg level), two negative levels (only the first round counts), or four negative levels (the effects stack with themselves every time they hit)? For the sake of illustration, I'm using the Rapid Metamagic ACF and/or the Incantatrix's 2/day free metamagic.

Likewise, say under the same circumstances that I'm slinging around empowered Enervates, for 1d4+([1d4]/2) per hit, also two per round for two rounds. Does the target take 1d4+([1d4]/2) negative levels, 2d4+([2d4]/2), or 4d4+([4d4]/2)?

What about the effects of Twin or Repeat Spell metamagics with Fell Drain Magic Missile or Enervate?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 05:28 AM
"Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."

Each time you cast a spell with Fell Drain, that spell inflicts a negative level on any creature that it damages. It doesn't matter if you're casting the same spell multiple times or even more than once in the same round. If you have two apples those are two different apples, even though both are apples. If you cast two Orb of Force spells those are two different Orb of Force spells, even though both are Orbs of Force. Each will be considered separately when determining the result of your Fell Drain metamagic, so each one will inflict a negative level.

You should include Residual Magic in CM, you cast a metamagic spell (fell drain orb of force) and then on the following round the first time you cast that same spell it gets that same metamagic applied for free.

All negative levels automatically stack with any other negative levels by default, even if they're from the same source. If a Wight hits a character multiple times, each hit will bestow a negative level, even though all of them are from the same source. Spells are not indicated as being an exception to this.

Enervation is better with Split Ray over Empower.

Twin Spell makes the spell do everything twice, including bestowing negative levels. Repeat makes the spell do everything again, including bestowing negative levels. Again, nothing indicates that it wouldn't, and the rules on energy drain and negative levels are clear that it doesn't matter if the target already has negative levels, even from the same source, repeated energy draining attacks repeatedly energy drain the target. If your DM wants to make a house rule on this, then your group should insist that energy draining monsters follow the same rules.

Chronos
2014-08-01, 09:16 AM
Twin Spell might be argued to apply the negative level only once, since it's still only one casting of the spell, and Fell Drain only works once per victim per casting. Repeat should work twice, though. And both will work on Enervation, which has no such limit.

Curmudgeon
2014-08-01, 10:06 AM
Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level. ... Assuming the subject survives, the negative level disappears (without requiring a Fortitude save) after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15).
Each time you cast a spell with Fell Drain, that spell inflicts a negative level on any creature that it damages.
I don't believe you're parsing this correctly. As I read it, the benefit of this feat is a (singular) negative level per creature, not a negative level per creature per spell. There's a special rule about how the (again, singular) negative level disappears. You can repeat Fell Drain damage to multiple creatures, and each one would gain a negative level. But repeated applications of Fell Drain to the same creature will still yield only a single negative level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-08-01, 10:18 AM
I don't believe you're parsing this correctly. As I read it, the benefit of this feat is a (singular) negative level per creature, not a negative level per creature per spell. There's a special rule about how the (again, singular) negative level disappears. You can repeat Fell Drain damage to multiple creatures, and each one would gain a negative level. But repeated applications of Fell Drain to the same creature will still yield only a single negative level.

Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level. ... Assuming the subject survives, the negative level [from this spell] disappears (without requiring a Fortitude save) after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15).

The single casting of the modified spell itself is altered to add a negative level to any creature damaged by it, and the negative level inflicted by that spell disappears after no more than 15 hours. If you modify another single casting of a spell with this feat, even if it's the same spell, then it will also inflict a negative level, and so on.

It may not inflict a negative level per round from a Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist, but as I said earlier each spell modified by this feat would be considered separately for adjudicating the effect of this metamagic feat.

Chronos
2014-08-01, 10:34 AM
Right, the negative level from Fell Drain disappears after a few hours. That doesn't say anything about what happens to other negative levels, like those from other Fell Drain spells. The general rule is that negative levels stack, and Fell Drain provides no exception to that.

If a spell referred to "the damage from this spell", would you rule that a character can only ever be damaged by that spell once?

Monarch Dodora
2014-08-01, 10:45 AM
Enervation specifically states that its negative levels stack, so every time you hit them with an enervation ray, they gain more negative levels.

I don't know about Fell Drain but I don't see why they wouldn't stack. I would assume that multiple hits from a single casting of a spell wouldn't bestow multiple negative levels, though - say, you cast magic missile and direct three of the missiles at one target, that target would still gain only negative level, not three.