So i made a gnome wizard...

[Drake2009]

Basicly, i made a gnome wizard and am planning on going into mystic theurge, not cheaty feats making me go earlier just 3 levels of wizard then 3 levels of cleric. We are in an Egyptian based campaign where we are raiding tombs (the Pharaoh allowed us) and my gnome....well he likes to make trouble. He at the moment is the best appraiser although the others double check how much the stuff is worth. We paused the game for a couple of weeks and should be starting up again soon. Im just trying to think of what spells/equipment (im thinking of spending my next feat on create magic item) and anything else. We are currently level two but i think were close to a level up. Ive played DND for a while, but im not very good, more proficient than anything.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Basicly, i made a gnome wizard and am planning on going into mystic theurge, not cheaty feats making me go earlier just 3 levels of wizard than 3 levels of cleric.

Early entry tricks aren't 'cheaty' if they switch a build from being not viable to viable. A Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 1 still only has 2nd level spells, when a single-classed character of either class would have had 4th level spells. On top of that, you'll need to spend (waste) two feats on Practiced Spellcaster twice just so your weak, low-level spells will at least scale to the proper level. Just because a class exists does not mean it's playable, when Mystic Theurge was printed the designers had no idea how to play their own game and didn't know what was powerful and what wasn't.

I would recommend retraining per Player's Handbook II, Chapter 8, to switch your Wizard levels to Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), and just stick with that. That can learn nearly every spell that exists (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), and can do every thing a Cleric is capable of on top of most of everything a Wizard can do, and you're not crippling yourself with a mechanically terrible multiclass choice. You'll even be able to Turn Undead with Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)!

[Shining Wrath]

Mystic Theurge not a recommended PrC as noted by Biffoniacus_Furiou. What is your role in the party other than IDbot? Does the party rely on you for both sorts of magic?

You'd really be better off a straight wizard who spends lots of money on Belts of Healing than a Theurge. Compare the power of these spells
L2 Wizard: Glitterdust
L2 Cleric: Bull's Strength
With
L4 Wizard: Black Tentacles
L4 Cleric: Lower Spell Resistance

[torrasque666]

Hey guys, how about instead of saying his plan sucks and telling him to do something else, you actually help him out with what he wants to do? Sometimes there are thematic builds you know. And Mystic Theruge is perfectly viable, you still get 8th level spells. Yeah, its a slower progression and I know they're not 9ths but a lot of 9ths tend to break the game further(so do 8ths, but my point still stands)

Remember that if you go MT, you don't get your free spells from your Wizard levels, so you'll need to save some money to get the spell you want. I would suggest for your god, if possible, to be Thoth given that A) its egyptian themed and B) has the domains that you already seem to be following. Items and spells are a bit difficult for me to advise on, given that I haven't spent all of my free time book diving, but I can tell you that if you're going DMM(anything) you'll want nightsticks, as well as a reliquary holy symbol because you'll want turn attempts to fuel DMM. If you're not going DMM, then I got nothing as I don't play casters(because I like not getting books thrown at me)

[Drake2009]

umm. i should note that this campaign is based in egypt type lands, but its not egypt. We have an inquisitor, rogue, cavalier, and me. Right now the best thing i can do is magically throw my hammer (that has come in handy so many times) and use a couple of spells like magic missle, grease and such. Magic missile with toppling metamagic works wonders. I really do want to try mystic theurge, cause it just seems fun to play although difficult. Its the same reason i wanted to try monk, it would be an experience. I understand that i wont be as powerful as the others, but seriously, ive done the whole Straight wizard thing where NOBODY can come close to you. It was fun, but i think if i do theurge, ill be closer to my teamates and not be solving most of the problems. When i did the wizard thing, we had a super amazing rogue and a gunslinger, The barbarian pretty much just stood back and watched. This time, i hope that we can all just play and not have somebody who cant help in combat. I remember when we went with a succubus (we really didnt want to) and we came up to the place we needed to go and found 2 demons waiting for us. She forgot that her master leaves them there to guard the place and they eat their own kind, obviously this was supposed to be a challenge... Instead my wizard and the cleric (he was out that day) walked up and simultaneously said "DISMISSAL" Boom problem solved... It was that easy. It was funny as heck though. This time i think that we will be more on an even playing field, we have a more experienced DM and that should help.

[Shining Wrath]

Hey guys, how about instead of saying his plan sucks and telling him to do something else, you actually help him out with what he wants to do? Sometimes there are thematic builds you know. ... SNIP ...

I suggested OP move away from MT because of this:


Ive played DND for a while, but im not very good, more proficient than anything.

Which made me think he wanted to do something more high-op. MT is oft described as a trap.

OP: Here is a Theurge Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?224999-The-Urge-to-Theurge-A-Theurge-Handbook-WIP)

A suggestion for your upcoming Cleric levels to qualify for MT: take Cloistered Cleric. You like skill points.

[torrasque666]

On second consideration, it seems he's in Pathfinder. So my advise for Thoth wont work, nor will that advise for Cloistered Cleric.

[VoxRationis]

Incidentally, why would the Pharaoh allow you to desecrate the tombs of the dead? Don't you feel a little bit bad, being those jerks who appear in history books in the sentence "the Pyramids were once filled with burial treasures placed there to aid the dead in the afterlife, but tomb robbers have looted them over the years"?

[Drake2009]

Actually, the pharaoh is doing it to increase wealth and stuff. Basically its increased the economy and stuff, the High priest didnt really approve...but the pharaoh made him. I cant remember all the details.

[Ramshack]

Mystic Thurge is a great class, don't let these others fool you, yes you may be a few spell levels behind, but you trade early game power for late game dominance. That's not to say you still wont be viable in the early game either, scorching rays and heals go a long way. My last campaing we went from 1 to 18 and my friend played a Mystic Theurge, I played a paladin, sorcerer we RP'd that I was a paladin sworn to protect the cleric, this cleric had a thirst for knowledge and learned arcane and divine magic and then helped unlock my own hidden potential. The first 6 levels or so I was the power house protecting him and after level 12 He was unstoppable. We joked that my character would either die protecting him or trying to kill him.

[Drake2009]

That sounds cool, the group i play in is using pathfinder m( sorry if i forgot to mention lol) and i have to say none of us are good optimizers. We have an experienced DM though, and we are always having fun. I have to say im kind of glad we have an experienced DM, during our big campaign we had a pretty new DM and we never had a challenge.

[Drake2009]

So.... ive been wondering if i should go druid or cleric, im thinking cleric cause we go into a lot of tombs, and turn undead could be useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So.... ive been wondering if i should go druid or cleric, im thinking cleric cause we go into a lot of tombs, and turn undead could be useful.

If you're going 3/3/MT, your Turn Undead ability isn't going to do anything at all. Undead typically have at least two or three more effective HD than their CR. If you're 4th level (Wizard 3/ Cleric 1) a CR 3 Troll Skeleton has 6 HD, impossible for you to turn. A CR 3 Shadow has effectively 5 HD, you need to roll 'level +4' to even have a chance of turning one. A Druid or Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) can cast Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) and be able to Turn Undead as a Cleric of their caster level, which will be as high as your character level with Practiced Spellcaster. You can put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on the bones and the spell lasts 365 times longer than normal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365586-Unguent-of-Timelessness-and-spell-effects#4), the unguent never wears off and you can reuse the same bones the next time you cast it, and the next, etc. Archivist gets Int-based spellcasting, so it's the ideal choice to use with Wizard on a Mystic Theurge.

[torrasque666]

A Druid or Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) can cast Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) and be able to Turn Undead as a Cleric of their caster level, which will be as high as your character level with Practiced Spellcaster. You can put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on the bones and the spell lasts 365 times longer than normal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365586-Unguent-of-Timelessness-and-spell-effects#4), the unguent never wears off and you can reuse the same bones the next time you cast it, and the next, etc. Archivist gets Int-based spellcasting, so it's the ideal choice to use with Wizard on a Mystic Theurge.

Almost every word of this is referencing 3.5. And he mentioned that the group is using Pathfinder. Shame you can't fit both into the thread title.

[Drake2009]

Lol, sorry for the confusion, need to remember to put pathfinder in the title... But i had another game and were REALLY close to leveling up. We got to fight this cool sand elemental thingie, but i couldnt manage to get it greased so i could light the grease on fire... We wanted to turn it into a glass statue.

[Feint's End]

Mystic Thurge is a great class, don't let these others fool you, yes you may be a few spell levels behind, but you trade early game power for late game dominance. That's not to say you still wont be viable in the early game either, scorching rays and heals go a long way. My last campaing we went from 1 to 18 and my friend played a Mystic Theurge, I played a paladin, sorcerer we RP'd that I was a paladin sworn to protect the cleric, this cleric had a thirst for knowledge and learned arcane and divine magic and then helped unlock my own hidden potential. The first 6 levels or so I was the power house protecting him and after level 12 He was unstoppable. We joked that my character would either die protecting him or trying to kill him.

Not intending to derail this thread but what you said is plain untrue. He might have been a powerhouse from level 12 onwards but only because casters are powerhouses from level 9 onwards on their own. Even lategame he was most likely weaker than a straight caster because while theurges add some sort of flexibility they lose out on a great deal more. They are way behind on spell levels, which costs them the flexibility they gain from being a theurge in the first place. They are also more powerful simply because they are ahead in spelllevels. Only at level 20 you catch up and lets be honest ... most people don't get there. Oh and of course you also need 2 stats for casting.

That's not to say Theurges are innately bad but they are definitely worse than just straight up single class of either class. With early entry tricks (or in Pathfinder actually without tricks) they become somewhat decent. Just lose 1 casterlevel and get casting as an 11th level cleric/wizard is quite good actually. Without it they are meh and far from being a "great class" (as in compared to what other options are).

As for op. It is a shame you aren't an Aasimar because they can get in earlier (daylight sla) but since you are already at it you might as well stay. As I see it the rest of your group is somewhere between high t3 and low t4 so even while being a Mystic Theurge is pretty suboptimal you can just roll with it. You'll still be fine.
If you haven't got the traits for increased cl yet you want those (I hope you got them already). Otherwise Additional Traits is a must-have feat to pick up at least one of them. Other than that stay away from item creation for now ... you lack cl and the spelllist to do anything useful with it for a few levels as a theurge. Improved Initiative is always a solid feat otherwise.

[Drake2009]

Yeah ok, my wizard does keep getting beat to the chase by the monk. I wish i could use nerveskitter..

[Drake2009]

We had to skip a session, cause some people were gone, and i got a terrible sunburn.... But we should get back on track this week.