Saw a New Group Playing Today

[Sugashane]

Went to get some new dice as my 3 year old decided to flush a few of my last ones, and I went to a shop I had heard was nice. Went in and there was a game in session and I listened in as the DM laid the scenery and was pretty intrigued, he really did a great job describing scenes, people, and creatures. After getting some dice I sat an and listened (they said they didn't care, I wasn't just rude and dropping in) and I saw two things that surprised me.

1- A guy used PAO on a new companion a few games ago so he could keep up, giving him the Paragon template.
2- A 24th level wilder killed an Atropal with one Energy Ball, using all 343 power points on it and getting 27 on the 7d6, 16 on 5d6 (to get it to an even 330d6, and then 38 on 10d6 (which was multiplied by 33). Total damage was 1297 damage from one massive blast. The save for half damage wasn't a 20 so it automatically failed, and the battle I expected to be exciting was just... over. Now yes, my math might have been off somewhere but I think that was exactly how it played out, but he did a total of 1297 damage with one blast, I know that fact.

I know very little about psionics, and I know he would be basically useless in such a powerful game without a vast array of items to support others with now, so I am seriously asking, is that legitimate or are both of those simple a DM letting his players get crazy for fun? PAO seems like by RAW it is legitimate but is laughable by RAI IMO, and I simply have no real experience in psionics so I came here to ask as I'm sure many of you have much more than I in that field.

As always, thank you for any feedback.

[Larkas]

I'm going from memory here, and might be wrong on both accounts, but...

1 - AFAIK, you can't polymorph into a templated creature.

2 - Again, AFAIK, you can only spend as many PP as your manifester level. So that wilder shouldn't have been able to spend more than 24 PP on that blast.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Neither one of those was legitimate:

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm): "This spell functions like polymorph..."
Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm): "This spell functions like alter self.."
Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm): "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype."

Power Point Limit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPointLimit)
Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

[TandemChelipeds]

I'm going from memory here, and might be wrong on both accounts, but...

1 - AFAIK, you can't polymorph into a templated creature.

2 - Again, AFAIK, you can only spend as many PP as your manifester level. So that wilder shouldn't have been able to spend more than 24 PP on that blast.

Wilders have Wild Surge. They can exceed their manifester level if they use it. And at level 20(in the Pathfinder version, at least) they get Perfect Surge as a capstone ability, allowing them to add +10 to their manifester level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wilders have Wild Surge. They can exceed their manifester level if they use it. And at level 20(in the Pathfinder version, at least) they get Perfect Surge as a capstone ability, allowing them to add +10 to their manifester level.

NO, wild surge increases your manifester level for manifesting a power, thus raising the power point limit for that power. You still cannot spend more than your (adjusted) manifester level in power points on any power.

[TandemChelipeds]

NO, wild surge increases your manifester level for manifesting a power, thus raising the power point limit for that power. You still cannot spend more than your (adjusted) manifester level in power points on any power.

If you want to be pedantic about it. It's still legal.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind. I misread something. I guess it isn't legal.

[Vhaidara]

Wilders have Wild Surge. They can exceed their manifester level if they use it. And at level 20(in the Pathfinder version, at least) they get Perfect Surge as a capstone ability, allowing them to add +10 to their manifester level.

Okay, we've reached 34. 300 309 to go :smalltongue:

[Story]

I'm sure Tippy will be able to come up with a way of achieving ML 343 on a 24th level Wilder.

[Vhaidara]

One moment. I wanted to try a new summoning spell.
Tippyacus, appearicus!

[TypoNinja]

I'm sure Tippy will be able to come up with a way of achieving ML 343 on a 24th level Wilder.

Well its possible the DM decided to allow some kind Epic Psionics to mirror Epic Magic development.

[Sugashane]

Thanks for the replies! It seemed off, but again I don't know the context the game was played in, or how much house-ruling was allowed. I just couldn't imagine not seeing more threads on how broken of a glass cannon they could be.

[Twilightwyrm]

Circle magic/cl raising abuse + cerebramancer + mental pinnacle? Not sure if you can get good enough magic to pull off the normal tricks for boosting CL with Cerebremancer depressing your arcane spell-casting ability, but these ARE epic levels. Things can start getting crazy.

[icefractal]

You can certainly get it above 24, but I think (as straight Wilder) you'd have trouble reaching 50, much less 300+.
Although for things you're not casting during a fight, Metaconcert multiplies it by roughly 150%.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On top of everything else, a 20th+ Wilder would have more than 343 power points due to the bonus from his ability score, which should be at least 40 but is more likely in the neighborhood of 120 at that level. Chances are what you observed is more due to ignorance of the rules than anything else, but if they're having fun then more power to them.

[PraxisVetli]

How does one acquire a 120 INT at that level??

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How does one acquire a 120 INT at that level??

I meant 120 bonus power points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters), which at level 20 you would get from a 34 in your casting stat.

[Psyren]

Just to note - while it is indeed pretty impossible to spend all 343 of your PP on one power, it is possible (with significant cheese) to do so in one turn. What you may have witnessed was some action economy abuse to get off a whole bunch of energy balls, and then the Wilder player rolling all their dice at once for kicks.

So yes, an optimized psion/wilder can one-shot some tough creatures - where "one" in this case means "one turn" rather than "one power."

Again, I don't know for sure if that's what you saw, but it's not impossible.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also note that the Wilder's power would not overcome an Atropal's regeneration, which can only be overcome with good-aligned attacks and sentient/intelligent weapons. Due to the Atropal's undead type, it would be immune to nonlethal damage, so any attack that cannot overcome its regeneration won't deal any damage to it at all. "Don't bother rolling those three-hundred-plus dice, you didn't even hurt it."

As I said, what was observed was most likely a result of ignorance of the rules.

[Psyren]

Also note that the Wilder's power would not overcome an Atropal's regeneration, which can only be overcome with good-aligned attacks and sentient/intelligent weapons. Due to the Atropal's undead type, it would be immune to nonlethal damage, so any attack that cannot overcome its regeneration won't deal any damage to it at all. "Don't bother rolling those three-hundred-plus dice, you didn't even hurt it."

As I said, what was observed was most likely a result of ignorance of the rules.

Hmm... I don't think there is a Sanctify Power feat, but perhaps if the psion/wilder stood in an aura of some kind that turns all weapons good-aligned, and used a ray? That should be able to burn through an Atropal's regen.

Regardless, it definitely wouldn't work with Energy Ball.

[Socksy]

Also note that the Wilder's power would not overcome an Atropal's regeneration, which can only be overcome with good-aligned attacks and sentient/intelligent weapons. Due to the Atropal's undead type, it would be immune to nonlethal damage, so any attack that cannot overcome its regeneration won't deal any damage to it at all. "Don't bother rolling those three-hundred-plus dice, you didn't even hurt it."

As I said, what was observed was most likely a result of ignorance of the rules.

Wait, so if someone zombified the Tarrasque...:smalleek:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wait, so if someone zombified the Tarrasque...:smalleek:

Becoming undead causes you to lose any regeneration you had, so that wouldn't work. An Atropal starts out as an undead creature with regeneration, if it had become undead from a template then it wouldn't have it, but since it was printed that way it gets to be an exception to the rules: "A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)."

[Psyren]

Wait, so if someone zombified the Tarrasque...:smalleek:

As Biffo noted the Atropal is actually breaking the rules (as suits its epic nature.)

[Sir Chuckles]

As Biffo noted the Atropal is actually breaking the rules (as suits its epic nature.)

Not really breaking it, as the rules also state that the specific trumps the general.

[Chronos]

While "immune to all damage except..." is a reasonable ability for something as epic as an Atropal, giving it regeneration while also making it immune to nonlethal is a really convoluted way of doing it, so that probably wasn't actually the intent of the designers. What they actually intended is probably better approximated by having it take nonlethal damage from other sources, despite it being undead. Though of course, "rules as intended" is always a sticky subject.

[PraxisVetli]

I meant 120 bonus power points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters), which at level 20 you would get from a 34 in your casting stat.

That makes more sense!
I was intimidated..