Shadowrun 4E, low powered advice

[Ghost49X]

So I've been looking at my old shadowrun 4E books and I've been wondering if it wouldn't be a better and more start balanced game if characters were further limited during character creation. This is obviously not well suited for a one-off mission for that the original rules work quite well. This is intended in a game that focuses on RP and the grim and dark setting that is Shadowrun and which allows for the development of characters.

Below are a few ideas that came to mind, keep in mind that they would be facing enemies with dice pools of 6-9 at most, so professional rent-a-cops

In character creation:
300BP
Limit the characters to 1 skill at 4 or 2 skills at 3 with the rest at 2 or lower.
Skill groups can be no higher than 2.
No one may start with an natural attribute maxed out.
The point before the maximum natural attribute would cost 25BP instead of 10
The Max availability for gear is 6 (with restricted gear 12) restricted or forbidden items are allowed
Limit the starting connection rating for contacts to 3
No limit on contact loyalty but it should be accounted for within the background

After character creation
No limits on dice pools,
No limits on availability beyond what your contacts can get you
High strength affects recoil option rule

Optional:
During character creation I could give free BP for contacts = charisma x2

[sleepyphoenixx]

With most skills limited to 2 and the increased cost for a 5 in an attribute you end up with dice pools in the 5-6 range which is very low imo. It's especially hard on archetypes that need several skills to function well, like hackers and mages. The lower dicepools drastically increase the possibility of glitches, too.

If it's a balanced game you want i suggest trying karmagen instead of using BP. It makes for more well rounded characters without turning the players into bumbling incompetents.

[Ghost49X]

With most skills limited to 2 and the increased cost for a 5 in an attribute you end up with dice pools in the 5-6 range which is very low imo. It's especially hard on archetypes that need several skills to function well, like hackers and mages. The lower dicepools drastically increase the possibility of glitches, too.

If it's a balanced game you want i suggest trying karmagen instead of using BP. It makes for more well rounded characters without turning the players into bumbling incompetents.

I tried that, players still attempt to over-specialize, one ended up with a 22 dice pool in automatics
Let's see what we can do within this system. Attribute of 4 + skill of 2 + with Specialization so another +2 + 2 gear related bonus (like a smart link for example) = 10
This isn't counting augmented attributes through implants/adept powers which I'm sure you can get a +1 or +2 from it. Keep in mind this would be for a skill at 2 so it's not even the runner's specialty.

As for Hackers they can focus on some skills and rely on agents with the proper software for the others, at-least in the beginning. I once knew a player who would dabble in hacking/rigging on the side and he had next to no skills in it other than computer use. He did all his hacking through an agent which was maintained by a contact of his and it was more than enough to cover his needs (that group had no matrix specialist player).

As for Mages and Technomancers
Something like this would be a golden opportunity to play an emerging technomancer or recently awakened mage. As you're not punished by having to spend 15 sessions worth of karma before the others consider you an equal. The more I read about the setting, novels, short stories and so on the more I feel like the RP involved with discovering oneself as a mage/technomancer is a staple of the setting and sorely underplayed.

Everyone just plays established characters because it's what the normal start allows and they expect to face threats equalizing that. But seriously I have yet to find something to challenge some of the OP builds enough to keep things interesting. And even if I did once in awhile I can't reuse the same concepts constantly, just throwing more dice on the table without backing it up with logical reasons (gear, skills) feels like poor GMing. If your troll can walk away from a damage value of 18 unscathed. Just giving the next shot a DV of 24 and the next a DV of 30 and so on until it registers some damage is just going to get the players asking how that NPC got that bucket full of dice and bonuses and where they can sign up for it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can't really rely on agents for matrix work when your availability restrictions make it impossible to get decent ones. It's been a while but agents have availability = rating x2 iirc.
You won't get very far with that, especially not on hardware that is equally limited.

Instead of forcing restrictions i suggest you talk with your players instead. There's a reason why every character should go through DM approval before you start the campaign. If someone shows up with 20+ dicepools tell him to rebuild it.

For your troll example, instead of attacking his strengths you should go for his weakness - there's enough attacks that ignore armor or at least halve it.

It sounds like your games are very much pink mohawk. You should look into setting reasonable restrictions such as your runners not being able to run around in full military combat armor with heavy weapons on display. That kind of thing flies when you insert into a remote research lab somewhere but in the city it's a surefire ticket to get a date with a heavy Lone Star SWAT team who have the same or better gear and numbers on their side.

Running around with tons of foci and sustained spells active is a beacon for every awakened cop and patrolling spirit, and you can be sure they'll pay extra special attention to your licenses (if you even have any). Combat spells, mind magic and mid-high power foci are heavily restricted by the law, similar to heavy weapons - play it accordingly.
Active foci and spells are also disrupted by wards (which are standard issue in most corporate buildings).

Keep in mind that you need licenses for any kind of gear beyond basic pistols and civilian-grade armor. Those get expensive fast and the more exotic/dangerous your gear is the more scrutiny your fake licenses will be subjected to. The only place where the really heavy equipment can be used is in places where you're more likely to face heavy merc teams instead of corpsec as opposition.

What i usually do is limit dicepools at chargen to 15, use karmagen and require your players to "fit" - everyone needs gear that he can go into town with without being arrested on sight.
Make use of general skills like perception, stealth and social skills where appropiate to encourage your players to make their characters more well rounded, too.

[Ghost49X]

You can't really rely on agents for matrix work when your availability restrictions make it impossible to get decent ones. It's been a while but agents have availability = rating x2 iirc.
You won't get very far with that, especially not on hardware that is equally limited.
Agent raiting is x3, but let's not forget that I can tailor missions to people with dice pools of that level. I don't need to require networks to have dice pools of 12+, something like 4 sounds good to me vs a hacker limited in that way. Lets not forget that after character creation he can still get into contact with his black market contact and buy better software, it's just going to have to be in game. Likewise he can write his own after the game starts. There are a lot of opportunities available for this sort of roleplay that are usually ignored by players.


Instead of forcing restrictions i suggest you talk with your players instead. There's a reason why every character should go through DM approval before you start the campaign. If someone shows up with 20+ dicepools tell him to rebuild it. I've tried that, it ends up with players furious that they didn't get to optimize their characters with what was allowed.

For your troll example, instead of attacking his strengths you should go for his weakness - there's enough attacks that ignore armor or at least halve it.
Any of them that will also get through his 16 dice of augmented body? Without one shotting every other PC? I actually did that during my first Shadowrun game, eventually when he remade a character (I didn't kill him this was after we rebooted) He had those weaknesses covered.


It sounds like your games are very much pink mohawk. You should look into setting reasonable restrictions such as your runners not being able to run around in full military combat armor with heavy weapons on display. That kind of thing flies when you insert into a remote research lab somewhere but in the city it's a surefire ticket to get a date with a heavy Lone Star SWAT team who have the same or better gear and numbers on their side.
This is usually my intent, but when they pack so much cheese it's impossible to take them down without calling those legendary mercs that exist only in movies and sending them in to have an equal chance at defeating them. I've had a game where they easily shot down the assault helicopters I sent after them and laughed them off... In fact that turned out to be a very boring game for me because they never got to the mission I had spent so much time preparing.


Running around with tons of foci and sustained spells active is a beacon for every awakened cop and patrolling spirit, and you can be sure they'll pay extra special attention to your licenses (if you even have any). Combat spells, mind magic and mid-high power foci are heavily restricted by the law, similar to heavy weapons - play it accordingly. Active foci and spells are also disrupted by wards (which are standard issue in most corporate buildings). They are a thousand times stronger and capable of dealing with anything the cops send their way. I have also yet to see any mage abuse foci, I know it's possible but they usually just max their other dice and it's enough to mind control everyone within range and get out before anyone shows up.


Keep in mind that you need licenses for any kind of gear beyond basic pistols and civilian-grade armor. Those get expensive fast and the more exotic/dangerous your gear is the more scrutiny your fake licenses will be subjected to. The only place where the really heavy equipment can be used is in places where you're more likely to face heavy merc teams instead of corpsec as opposition.
Yes this is usually my original plan, but the cops can't do anything to a team that can one shot him while their hacker tampers with their video and health monitor feeds and leave him or them dead in the streets.


What i usually do is limit dicepools at chargen to 15, use karmagen and require your players to "fit" - everyone needs gear that he can go into town with without being arrested on sight.
Make use of general skills like perception, stealth and social skills where appropiate to encourage your players to make their characters more well rounded, too.
Also all part of my usual plan except the 15 dice pool limit. That's too high to be dealing at a level where 6-9 enemy dice pools are supposed to be an ok challenge. When I mean 6-9 I mean 6 with a few cases of 7-8 or maybe 9, and these cases are usually something the runners can eliminate before hand.

[LibraryOgre]

You might try, for a more mundane game, capping Essence loss and total Magic, as well as availability. So, if you cap them at 3 (no more than 3 essence worth of 'ware, no more than 3 points of magic), you don't have to limit the more mundane skills, and you MIGHT have someone who cheeses out his pistol powers, but he's still not a real match for the guy with 5.99 essence of cyberware and gear with 12 availability.

[Ghost49X]

You might try, for a more mundane game, capping Essence loss and total Magic, as well as availability. So, if you cap them at 3 (no more than 3 essence worth of 'ware, no more than 3 points of magic), you don't have to limit the more mundane skills, and you MIGHT have someone who cheeses out his pistol powers, but he's still not a real match for the guy with 5.99 essence of cyberware and gear with 12 availability.

True, but my reasons for capping skills is to give characters the chance to improve in their specialty. If you have 6-7 in a skill, you're already one of the best worldwide. You can't be a high school drop out and have a 6 in medicine which would amount to a post-doctorate graduate...

[sleepyphoenixx]

If your players get angry when you ask them to tone it down so you can get a more enjoyable game going i'd honestly tell them to DM it themselves.
As long as everyone has fun curbstomp games can be okay but it seems that at least you aren't content with that, so you should probably discuss what everyone expects out of the game.

If they still refuse try your method. It's not like you have much to lose. The only problem i see is that lower dicepools increase the ocurrence of glitches, which i already mentioned.
If that's the only way to reign your players in then that's probably a price you can live with.

Or you could go the other way. They want cheese? Fine. Everything they do is common practice for shadowrunners, so authorities are prepared to deal with it. Heavy Combat teams with high-tech gear, mages with high force spirits and the best foci money can buy, Cyberzombies, etc. If shady criminals can get it megacorps shouldn't have too many problems doing the same.

It could open their eyes a little and at the very least you get to have a little fun instead of having all your encounters curbstomped. Maybe after they get the over the top pink mohawk out of their systems they'll be more willing to consider worldbuilding and storytelling to be equally important as optimization.

[Ghost49X]

If your players get angry when you ask them to tone it down so you can get a more enjoyable game going i'd honestly tell them to DM it themselves.
As long as everyone has fun curbstomp games can be okay but it seems that at least you aren't content with that, so you should probably discuss what everyone expects out of the game.
Yeah discussion and expectations is a main issue we're trying to fix.


If they still refuse try your method. It's not like you have much to lose. The only problem i see is that lower dicepools increase the ocurrence of glitches, which i already mentioned.
If that's the only way to reign your players in then that's probably a price you can live with.
I would also point out that the opposition have as much chance for glitches or more since their dice pools tend to be even smaller. But a glitch doesn't mean the building crashes down on you and kills everyone. They are minor inconveniences that I see as an opportunity for RP, from having your gun jam at the wrong moment to having an NPC misunderstanding what you were trying to get across. Only major glitches actually pose any danger as long as I don't use it as an excuse to kill off the group with extra cheese they can also be fun to deal with if only occasionally.

Or you could go the other way. They want cheese? Fine. Everything they do is common practice for shadowrunners, so authorities are prepared to deal with it. Heavy Combat teams with high-tech gear, mages with high force spirits and the best foci money can buy, Cyberzombies, etc. If shady criminals can get it megacorps shouldn't have too many problems doing the same.Not only does this get boring for me fast, it is actually quite a chore to stat up encounters like this ALL the time.


It could open their eyes a little and at the very least you get to have a little fun instead of having all your encounters curbstomped. Maybe after they get the over the top pink mohawk out of their systems they'll be more willing to consider worldbuilding and storytelling to be equally important as optimization. I'm more interested in running games where characters start off on the street and have to climb their way up through betrayal and sacrifice, to becoming someone great in the end. If they start already being someone great it takes out the journey which is the most important part to me. A player with max augmented Agi and Ref, with 7 in pistols and gear to along with it has very little room to develop as a gunslinger.

It's like having a party of Supermans running around immune to everything but kryptonite until I get so tired of using that same plot device that I decide to shove a giant kryptonite meteor up their collective arses and kill them off no saves allowed.

[LibraryOgre]

True, but my reasons for capping skills is to give characters the chance to improve in their specialty. If you have 6-7 in a skill, you're already one of the best worldwide. You can't be a high school drop out and have a 6 in medicine which would amount to a post-doctorate graduate...

I can see that. I would suggest, in that case, that you may want to cap skills, but not attributes.

I'm also a fan of, instead of karma-based character generation, go with BP-based advancement. Scrap the karma entirely, and give build points on completion of goals. It leads to faster advancement, though the game can gonzo up if you're not careful.

[Ghost49X]

I can see that. I would suggest, in that case, that you may want to cap skills, but not attributes.

I'm also a fan of, instead of karma-based character generation, go with BP-based advancement. Scrap the karma entirely, and give build points on completion of goals. It leads to faster advancement, though the game can gonzo up if you're not careful.

About capping the attributes I only want them to not start capped so lowering it all by 1 and giving the same more expensive cost for the point at max attribute -1 should get most people starting with average or slightly above average scores, maybe with one or two attributes at max -1.

BP based character advancement looks like something better suited to short games where it allows the players can gain power quickly.

Edit: Come to think of it, I think I can see a way for people to still come up with 16 dice pools for builds even with these limitations, at least for combat characters...

[Alejandro]

To be fair (although I agree with your view of the problem) shadowrunner PCs generally attempt to specialize in things as much as they can, since they are generally hired to be specialists on a team, or a lone specialist for a specific job.

[Ghost49X]

To be fair (although I agree with your view of the problem) shadowrunner PCs generally attempt to specialize in things as much as they can, since they are generally hired to be specialists on a team, or a lone specialist for a specific job.

It's all perspective, for some having dice pools of 12 with dice pools of 20+ in their area of expertise is normal. For others having a dice pool of 6 with a dice pool of 12 in their area of expertise is still normal. You have to compare it to whom they're up against. If they're expected to fight people with dice pools of 6, then 12 dice can be considered an area of expertise.

[Alejandro]

Well, then as already said, talk to the players. People generally powergame for two reasons:

1. Because the GM's difficulty level demands it
2. Because they enjoy it (for good or awful reasons.)

Figure out which one it is. :)

[Ghost49X]

Well, then as already said, talk to the players. People generally powergame for two reasons:

1. Because the GM's difficulty level demands it
2. Because they enjoy it (for good or awful reasons.)

Figure out which one it is. :)

1. I've stated my intended difficulty and the most I've got out of a player was they didn't feel confident if they didn't have a much larger dice pool. They didn't feel like anything less than 95% chance to kill and 75% chance to dodge (without using cover) was reliably safe enough to be taking the missions.

2. If they want a game where they can beat up thousands of mooks without effort then they should be playing exalted or Anima at a fairly high level. Hell even D&D 4E with tons of minions works for that.

[Alejandro]

1. Good. Why don't you just run a one off session for them with less super-optimized characters, and show them there's nothing to worry about? Or, it could be your players are right, and your missions are so deadly that they need those rates. Are your runs that lethal, or are the players wrong?

2. Well, wiping out hordes of enemies isn't the only way powergamers enjoy themselves. Some players powergame because they have a need to be better than the other players, better than the GM, or both. Usually due to immaturity or poor gaming experiences. How old are your players?

[Ghost49X]

1. Good. Why don't you just run a one off session for them with less super-optimized characters, and show them there's nothing to worry about? Or, it could be your players are right, and your missions are so deadly that they need those rates. Are your runs that lethal, or are the players wrong?

2. Well, wiping out hordes of enemies isn't the only way powergamers enjoy themselves. Some players powergame because they have a need to be better than the other players, better than the GM, or both. Usually due to immaturity or poor gaming experiences. How old are your players?

1. I have yet to convince anyone to create characters of the sort (actually that's not true, I have a couple you seem to be interested but not enough for a team) my runs aren't lethal, I set things so that there is plenty of cover to be taken advantage of from both sides, opportunities for melee and ranged characters to shine. Opportunities for players to eliminate part of the enemy dice pools, by taking out or forcing a enemy leader providing leadership dice (further limiting the enemy dice pools (I count those leadership dice in my original 6-9 dice pools). I leave intel laying around for characters to find both with leg work before the mission and during the mission, players should rarely if ever be engaging the enemy without knowing roughly they're what they're jumping into. Even when I wish to ambush them I leave indications of something coming down, from noticing several corp SWAT vans arriving outside their building to spotting approaching choppers or other air transport.

2. This is a game on these forums, though reading some of what they said I'm expecting them to be fairly mature but I don't feel comfortable asking for age. If people act maturely then I don't care if they're 14 or 36.

[aspi]

1. I've stated my intended difficulty and the most I've got out of a player was they didn't feel confident if they didn't have a much larger dice pool. They didn't feel like anything less than 95% chance to kill and 75% chance to dodge (without using cover) was reliably safe enough to be taking the missions.

2. If they want a game where they can beat up thousands of mooks without effort then they should be playing exalted or Anima at a fairly high level. Hell even D&D 4E with tons of minions works for that.
I've noticed this thread a few days back and even though it was quite obvious who you were talking about, I didn't post a reply since I had already dropped out of the game. Since you're completely pulling what I said out of context though and I'd still like to believe that you actually want to make a game work with this, I'll say this:

First off, I never talked about 95% hit chances and 75% dodge chances. I said that there should be around a 95% chance to survive a combat (as in: entire combat, not a single phase) - because otherwise a character would be dead within a few runs.

Second, you seem to have forgotten what you wrote in your opening post:

We'll see what you guys can handle, however Law enforcement will be OP enough that they will serve as a timer for missions. While they can be delayed, no matter how tough you are and what gear you're packing they have better.
Do you honestly expect a player to read that and say yeah, having a pool of 10 in firearms and 2 points in dodge is probably ok? Nowhere in your big 16 does it actually say that pool sizes should be limited to a medium level. You mentioned that idea only several days later when people had already built characters. So don't blame your players for not being mind readers. Apparently you even created this thread in parallel to the recruitment thread without telling us about it - don't you think your players could have used this information?

If you actually do want advice: Stop complaining about all your players being powergamers (because we weren't) and work on your communication - that is your problem. Sit down, actually put those rules into writing in a coherent and compact fashion and then post them someplace where your players can read them - so they have a chance to build a character that fits your specifications instead of being told that it's not to your liking only after the fact. I would have liked such a low powered game. What I didn't care for at all was your way of handling the issue and wasting hours of my time fitting a character to bad specifications.

[Ghost49X]

I've noticed this thread a few days back and even though it was quite obvious who you were talking about, I didn't post a reply since I had already dropped out of the game. Since you're completely pulling what I said out of context though and I'd still like to believe that you actually want to make a game work with this, I'll say this:
This tread was a way to get separate advice and opinions separate from that game, also note that my first post here had a radically different character gen procedure and limitations.


First off, I never talked about 95% hit chances and 75% dodge chances. I said that there should be around a 95% chance to survive a combat (as in: entire combat, not a single phase) - because otherwise a character would be dead within a few runs.A 95% chance of survival with a dice pool of 15 for
That was in reference to this post

The way I see it, if you are a combat focused character and you are not at least in the 10-15 category, you are unlikely to live to see your second run.



Do you honestly expect a player to read that and say yeah, having a pool of 10 in firearms and 2 points in dodge is probably ok? Nowhere in your big 16 does it actually say that pool sizes should be limited to a medium level. You mentioned that idea only several days later when people had already built characters. So don't blame your players for not being mind readers. Apparently you even created this thread in parallel to the recruitment thread without telling us about it - don't you think your players could have used this information?
Let's be specific shall we? As stated below, law enforcment was going to be used as a timer. If you go in and trip alarms or they call for outside back up, you should be thinking about getting ASAP out not about having a shoot out with these apparently elite tactical response teams.

9)We'll see what you guys can handle, however Law enforcement will be OP enough that they will serve as a timer for missions. While they can be delayed, no matter how tough you are and what gear you're packing they have better. On site security will usually attempt to delay you until the cavalry arrives. Evidence left at the scene may also trace back to you.



If you actually do want advice: Stop complaining about all your players being powergamers (because we weren't) and work on your communication - that is your problem. Sit down, actually put those rules into writing in a coherent and compact fashion and then post them someplace where your players can read them - so they have a chance to build a character that fits your specifications instead of being told that it's not to your liking only after the fact. I would have liked such a low powered game. What I didn't care for at all was your way of handling the issue and wasting hours of my time fitting a character to bad specifications.
I offered to re-write the specifications. My last post involved asking the other players for their opinion/interest.


I was expecting players to have about 8-12 dice in fields you want to consider yourself an expert and around 6 dice in fields you want to put skills in but you don't want to be considered an expert. If this is getting too complicated I guess we can go back to BP gen with limits. I wrote a thread about it, not too long ago

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364816-Shadowrun-4E-low-powered-advice

The only thing I would add is no combat manuvers (arsenal, part of the section on martial arts) but I would still allow martial arts...

In hind-sight I would probably just set a hard limit on dice pools on top of all that to limit headaches.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: I would suggest that, if this is an off-board issue, that it be resolved off board.

[Ghost49X]

Well this game was from the giantitp forums and we don't know each other in real life. I'm not sure how that can be handled "off-board". Sorry if the drama is hurting the board...

I for one got what I wanted as far as advice and options from this thread. I'll move on to something else