Drow Culture Questions

[5w337x7007h]

I don't know much about Drow, but I do like a lot of what they can do. My major questions lie in how the Drow function as a matriarchal society. I'm asking this for character continuity.
Main question is, would the head of a house breed outside the race, aka half-drow, to birth a female heir, to preserve the house bloodline?

[Afgncaap5]

I think in an extreme case that might happen, but that would likely be a highly unusual situation. Such a new heir would (if you take the Forgotten Realms Drow as I understand them, keeping in mind that I don't play in FR very often) likely have her bloodline a secret. Saying that a rival house would murder for that kind of secret would likely be an understatement.

Also, it's the kind of thing that Lolth might reveal as a secret to one house as a way to bring two houses into conflict, to test both houses for worth. Drow (I think) have this weird social tradition wherein one house can wage a rapid war against another in the dead of the night, and as long as every single member of the attacked house is wiped out then no one alive can "legally" testify about the atrocity that the attackers committed. So, if this heir were discovered, it could lead to that kind of lightning-strike conflict down the line.

A matriarch would almost certainly look for other options for an heir. But, again, unusual circumstances could cause unusual storylines. It's certainly not an impossibility, just an improbability. Well written, it could make a fascinating story background.

[Palanan]

It would certainly be an act of absolute desperation, and the matriarch would need a profoundly convincing cover story to prevent everyone around her from connecting the dots. How you would prevent this being discovered by divinations and the like is another question.

I agree with Afgncaap5 that it would make for an interesting backstory--but it would be a perpetual deadly risk as well. Granted the drow live with deadly risks every day, but as mentioned this could utterly destroy the matriarch's house. A matriarch in that situation might well be pre-judged as unworthy--it's almost a classic no-win scenario.

[Afgncaap5]

it's almost a classic no-win scenario.

Arguably, you could say that the entirety of Drow culture is (I think one of the books said that the society only exists because Lolth keeps it running through sheer force of will.) In that sense, this sort of plot element is perfect for the environment. On the other hand, though, this would be a shorter-than-usual example of the kinds of plots that cause the downfall of houses.

Lotsa fun for the players, but likely a daily nightmare for the matriarch herself.

[Phelix-Mu]

Lolth really sees non-drow as extremely inferior to drow, and doesn't look kindly on those that diffuse their drow blood by breeding with other mortal races. In addition to being a matriarchal society, the classic drow culture is pretty heavily theocratic; those houses that have the most power are often closely tied to the priesthood of Lolth, and many of their daughters (and perhaps the matron herself) would belong to the priesthood in some fashion. Unless the half-drow were pretty badass in some manner, the priestesses would turn against her and that would be the end of things.

However, rules in drow society are a bit of a mockery. It's a classic CE setup; the rules are only for those without power or cunning to follow, and if you are clever enough to get away with breaking the rules, well that is even encouraged. Thus, if a head matron had a dalliance with a [insert race], of which she is eminently capable of acquiring (they are powerful enough to demand whatever they want, and enforce their power through fear and their own machinations), then all she has to do is keep the offspring secret in some manner. That said, however, magic is so omnipresent in drow society that it is very unlikely that a noble drow female would conceive and carry to term a child she didn't want (while they are encouraged to produce more drow, mongrels will not be looked well upon). Drow, unlike elves, don't have problems reproducing; otherwise their society could never sustain their monumental homicide rates. So the premise that the matron couldn't have normal drow children is unusual; such a person would never become matron, as producing strong offspring is a religious duty, and matter of practical survival, to a drow house.

It's a chaotic society, though, so weird stuff can and does happen. The drow oppress those that are weaker (and those they believe to be weaker), when they aren't killing them outright, though, so there isn't much of a bright future for most such characters. Such a half-drow (there are special rules for such) would likely be disowned by the house and end up with the status of a common servant or forced to live on the streets (which usually amounts to an early death).

On the other hand, the head matron could use magic to conceal the impure blood of the child. This would be highly scandalous if discovered, though, and probably viewed as sentimental weakness on the part of the matron. Such weakness means only one thing in drow society; death. The matron's allies would turn on her in a heartbeat, and she'd be hard pressed to avoid being deposed and/or slain, and her entire house might follow after, as indiscriminate purges are just an excuse for a change of power, and Lolth even encourages such. So a huge risk. You would need to concoct a pretty sophisticated explanation as to just why all of this was necessary in the first place, but it probably could be done.

[5w337x7007h]

The backstory goes as this, (Please don't steal ideas.)
Kiska was born to the head of the Oussurden household, bearing the sigil of the blind raven. This household is the only one currently in Ustalav due to the underground necropolis of vampires. She is the only female heir, and youngest, the rest of her silblings are male. Her mother had a severe situation in which could bear no females to be the heir to the house. The first male was killed at birth, but a guiding hand recommended that she let the useless boys live and build a small army for the house to expand territory, not encroaching on the vampires. She, Olorvrae, grew tired of bearing such boys and beheaded her mate, seeking out someone who could help her bare a girl. Kiska eventually grew to adulthood and was sent out to retrieve an artifact that would help the house greatly. Her mother, privately, revealed that Kiska is a half-drow warning that if any outside the two knew this she would be murdered and the house would fall without an heir to succeed her. Thus Kiska's goal, before returning to Ustalav is to find a way to clense her body of the half that isn't drow, and obtain the artifact. Kiska doesn't know what she's looking for, but her mother stated, "You'll know when you've found it."

[Afgncaap5]

Sounds like a good start for a story, yeah. If she's going to be the villain of a campaign or side-arc, I think there's some good potential (especially since I could see the situation leading her to desperation and the impetus to do things more actively than other Drow.)

[5w337x7007h]

Not the villain, a character in a party. This is a backstory for my half-drow in the Half-Dead City campaign my friend is playing. We've got a drow fighter in the party and he's part of a patriarchy, which is very out-of-character for drow. She's playing along with the group because her goals fall in line with theirs, explore the necropolis to find what she's looking for.

[Segev]

Does she know (or is it relevant) what her "other half" is?

Regardless, the answer in Drow society is simple: become powerful enough to beat the tar out of anybody who dares question your purity, or, if you don't care about the scandal, anybody who dares treat it like it's a problem. You can go with "open secret" or "no secret at all; what're you gonna do about it?" at that point.

There are three keys to this working:

1) The character must be female, because that's going to be a deal-breaker for Lolth herself if an heir is male.
2) The character must be ruthless and powerful and cunning enough to destroy any opposition, whether through guile or outright brutality.
3) The character must be as faithful to Lolth as any of her high priestesses, and must publicly venerate and glorify the spider-goddess so she in no way seems to be stirring defiance to that deity.

Drow are CE; the strong rule. If she gives enough faith to Lolth and can subdue all foes who would set against her, she can claim her throne despite the open secret or blatant acknowledgement of her non-drow blood.

Additional possibilities include beseeching Lolth to be "cleansed" of her non-drow parts. It would likely involve the same sorts of tests which produce Driders from the failures, but it's feasible. And if she came out of it alive and full-drow, it would be a clear sign of Lolth's favor, which is always politically useful.


Just remember that Drow, as a CE society, will always bend their rules in the face of power, and the powerful can always bend the rules to their favor. Rules exist so you don't have to be bothered by your underlings for every little thing they should do; they apply to you only if you're not strong enough to ignore them.

[5w337x7007h]

Kiska is an Oracle of the Dark Tapestry. Thus bfc caster of divine magic. Divine magic being the only acceptable casting in drow society, among females, if I'm right. Her overall demeanor is that she's Lolth's punishment on her family. And she must absolve to redeem herself. So she seeks favor with Lolth and powers within the dark tapestry. She will either succeed or die trying.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by 5w337x7007h
Kiska eventually grew to adulthood….

If Kiska has survived to young adulthood already, I'd say the worst of the storm has been weathered, unless/until someone discovers the secret of her parentage. How her mother managed to spirit in a half-drow (sometimes known as Crinti) is the real mystery.

Is Oussurden the only drow house in the region? That's my impression, so it sounds like this is more of an outcast house to begin with. The lack of other drow neighbors would certainly have removed some pressure from Kiska's mother…but even so, there are a lot of questions to be answered about how her mother pulled this off.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
You would need to concoct a pretty sophisticated explanation as to just why all of this was necessary in the first place, but it probably could be done.

With "pretty sophisticated" meaning "insanely Machiavellian and impervious to magical inquiry." :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
So the premise that the matron couldn't have normal drow children is unusual; such a person would never become matron, as producing strong offspring is a religious duty, and matter of practical survival, to a drow house.

This is certainly unusual, and I think it could only work because the house in question is apparently isolated.

And it's not a question of producing normal children per se, but normal female children--which again makes you wonder why there hasn't been unfavorable attention from a certain irritating divine patroness. As Phelix points out, this kind of inherent weakness would be anathema to Lolth. It sounds like some sort of chromosome-linked anomaly, which to Lolth would scream "defect."


Originally Posted by 5w337x7007h
Thus Kiska's goal, before returning to Ustalav is to find a way to cle[a]nse her body of the half that isn't drow….

Gene therapy? :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure how this is possible without some intense magic, since this is like asking Spock to cleanse himself of his human half. That quarter of Kiska which is non-drow is still part of her DNA, and while there are probably ways to do this, they're likely far beyond the means of a first-level character.

[5w337x7007h]

The Oussurden household is the only in the region because the rest fled or died when the Whispering Tyrant took control of Ustalav. The Oussurden household is the only one remaining because they allied with the Vampires who rebelled against the Tyrant. The other drow were too proud and wouldn't work with the vampires and suffered for it. Not even the driders could withstand the undead for long.
Overall, the house is the last remaining in Ustalav and their goal is to rebuild the Ustalavian underdark.

[SethoMarkus]

I would say that this makes for an incredibly interesting story, but have to second that it is very unconventional. Actually, I think the Drow patriarchy of the other character is more likely, as I believe that there is a patriarchal drow population in FR canon.

The biggest suggestion that I can give is to make this Kiska character even more devout to Lolth than her mother is. Make it so that Kiska despises her non-Drow blood, despises her mother for her weakness and lack of devotion to Lolth (even if she IS devoted), and plans to overthrow her mother as soon as she has the power to (although that should go without saying for ANY female Drow). Structure it so that Kiska is more a more desirable agent of chaos than her mother is, and everything else should be able to be worked out.

As far as changing her type to be full-blooded Drow, I believe that a Wish or Miracle spell could accomplish the transformation. There are rules in the PHB II for a racial Rebuild Quest, starting on page 198. They have an levels 6-8 and levels 13-15 sample quests that you could probably alter to better fit Lolth and Drow thematically. She could always True Mind Switch with her mother and kill her old body (you'd lose 1 level this way, but I feel it would please Lolth the most; it also requires high level psionics...).

[5w337x7007h]

I noticed you all saying that drow are CE, but I've read up a little that the drow society is highly militaristic with heavy religious overtones and there's even a court of order. What is going on with that? It seems drow are naturally evil, but their goals affect their alignment. Some of the examples I've seen could lead to LE, NE, or even CE. Aside from the select few like Drizzt.

Edit: Would Half-Drow be able to take the nobility feats?
Answered my own question, the feat-line would be 4 instead of 3.

[SethoMarkus]

I noticed you all saying that drow are CE, but I've read up a little that the drow society is highly militaristic with heavy religious overtones and there's even a court of order. What is going on with that? It seems drow are naturally evil, but their goals affect their alignment. Some of the examples I've seen could lead to LE, NE, or even CE.

Although there is a bit of an "order" to Drow society, they are very much Chaotic. The trick is that they do so in the dark, not out in the open. On the surface, their society seems to be the iconic Lawful Evil bureaucracy. However, behind the scenes they are filled with betrayals, backstabs, loopholes, deceit, sabotage, feints and double feints, and all that sort. Remember, Lawful alignments means you follow law and order because you feel it is the best way to run society. Chaotic alignments still allows one to have and follow laws, but only because they are convenient. If you have the cunning and power to break the law without retaliation, you can bet that a Chaotic individual will do so. Drow society epitomizes that.


Aside from the select few like Drizzt.

Don't even bring Drizzt into this... completely different case, there... Even of the Drow that move towards Lawful and/or Good alignments, that is a bit of an exceptional case.

[5w337x7007h]

So, for the entirety of the campaign, until I decide to, I can do whatever I please as long as the rest of the party doesn't know I'm being evil and Undetectable alignment is my favorite spell.

[The Insaniac]

According to the Monster Manual, drow are "usually neutral evil". I think DotU mentioned this as being because for all of the scheming and backstabbing that goes on, the society as a whole is extremely rigid. The church of Lolth dominates everything, the houses are ranked by power in a specific order and within each house, there is a very specific hierarchy. So you end up with people who profess a hatred of law and order who nonetheless live in a very strictly ordered social system. However, the rules of the system only apply if you get caught and are too weak to stop someone else from taking you to account.

There are, of course, some drow who fall to either side of the law-chaos line. I think that the heads of the houses and males tend towards LE, especially wizards and weaponmasters. While the females who are not matron mothers, especially the clergy, tend towards CE.

[Phelix-Mu]

I noticed you all saying that drow are CE, but I've read up a little that the drow society is highly militaristic with heavy religious overtones and there's even a court of order. What is going on with that? It seems drow are naturally evil, but their goals affect their alignment. Some of the examples I've seen could lead to LE, NE, or even CE. Aside from the select few like Drizzt.

Edit: Would Half-Drow be able to take the nobility feats?
Answered my own question, the feat-line would be 4 instead of 3.

Part of the reason that drow society is the way it is is that it has evolved under the close supervision and near-constant relatively high-level intervention of a powerful being (a deity, and actually a whole pantheon in some settings). Thus, even though the underpinnings of drow society are chaotic ("truth" is relative, rules followed only when convenient, highly individualistic survival-of-the-fittest), Lolth's intervention and priesthood have imposed a layer of "order" on top of the otherwise totally insane level of anarchy that drives drow interactions.

Basically, a good way to consider it is to think of the average drow and their decision-making process. A drow thinks "can I get away with it?" way before one thinks "is it wrong?" If they can get away with it (via personal power, connections, sacrifices, betrayals, and [enter any other machination imaginable], then they really don't care if it is wrong.

And this is Lolth's way. She believes that each drow must not only be strong and willful beyond reason, but that, unless they are so, that they aren't quite meeting up to her ideals. Competition, even counterproductive competition, and a cruel kind of evolution seem to be her goals in this, as she is acting all of this out in response to the Sundering of the Elves, or whatever it was (going by pre-4e, and perhaps pre-3e, canon). She also believes males are inferior (though it's not clear quite how she came to this conclusion other than being nominally female herself, if gods can have gender), and so only the most vicious and self-promoting/backstabbing of females can really earn her rewards. Males are left to the other gods of the pantheon, or forced to be satisfied with a role among the head female's supporting cast.

Drow Justicar in, I think, Underdark, is a very interesting take on the issue. They are paladin-like worshipers of Lolth/her pantheon that seek out the unworthy and the non-believer and punish them (usually with gruesome death), but I don't think they are required to be female (ostensibly because they actually serve a different god of the pantheon).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SethoMarkus
Actually, I think the Drow patriarchy of the other character is more likely, as I believe that there is a patriarchal drow population in FR canon.

Yes, indeed--this is Sshamath, a good-sized Underdark city ruled by male drow commanding arcane magic; the divine priestesses are still there, but they take a definite back seat.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Part of the reason that drow society is the way it is is that it has evolved under the close supervision and near-constant relatively high-level intervention of a powerful being….

Drow of the Underdark has a whole section devoted to explaining the pretzelly logic behind drow society, behavior, and alignment. It was all too contrived for me to really take seriously, but Phelix's point is true enough: the constant meddling from Lolth is given as the fundamental reason why drow are "naturally" one alignment but behaviorally another.

It was almost, but not quite, as silly and paper-thin as the reasoning for why drow females are a) hot and sculpted, and b) required by social codes to dress in the skimpiest possible attire.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Drow Justicar in, I think, Underdark, is a very interesting take on the issue.

This is the Drow Judicator (hey, close enough ;) which is described as "a knight most foul," dedicated to a spider-themed champion of Lolth. It's not explicitly required to be male, but the description all but stipulates the Judicators are male.

There's not much in the description about their philosophy, but it's suggested they usually serve as elite assassins for a drow high priestess. The PrC itself is fairly meh, with a quasi-smite, some spider-rebuking, a spidery familiar, etc. The Dread Fang of Lolth is probably mechanically weaker, but always seemed cooler and more utilitarian to me.


Originally Posted by SethoMarkus
Make it so that Kiska despises her non-Drow blood, despises her mother for her weakness and lack of devotion to Lolth (even if she IS devoted), and plans to overthrow her mother as soon as she has the power to….

This raises a bit of a question. If Kiska confronts her mother, would her mother allow Kiska to kill her?

Ordinarily it would seem obvious that she wouldn't; but Kiska is a tremendous gamble and investment on her mother's part, ostensibly for the good of the house. Killing Kiska would not only waste many years' effort and secrecy, but it would almost certainly doom the house, since the chances of conceiving and raising another impure-blooded daughter would be remote at best.

There are some spiders who lay their eggs and then die beside them, so that their bodies can be the first meal of the hatchlings. One wonders how literally Kiska's mother would take that parallel--since once Kiska is strong enough to challenge her, logically the house would be stronger with Kiska running it and in a position to bear successors of her own.

Thus from this perspective, logic would demand self-sacrifice from a drow matriarch for the good of her house--a very odd circumstance indeed.

[SethoMarkus]

There are some spiders who lay their eggs and then die beside them, so that their bodies can be the first meal of the hatchlings. One wonders how literally Kiska's mother would take that parallel--since once Kiska is strong enough to challenge her, logically the house would be stronger with Kiska running it and in a position to bear successors of her own.

Thus from this perspective, logic would demand self-sacrifice from a drow matriarch for the good of her house--a very odd circumstance indeed.

Definitely. Kiska's mother needs to be concerned with her own survival, for any number of obvious and/or convoluted reasons, but also needs to be concerned with the survival of her house. Since their's seems to be the only major house in the area it makes it even more interesting- can the Matriarch afford to throw away Kiska in an effort to save her own skin, as there are no immediate threats outside the house? Can the Matriarch control Kiska just a little bit longer? Can she even stand up to Kiska? Evidently Kiska would have the Spider Queen's favor if she's powerful enough to threaten the Matriarch, and the Matriarch mustn't be in high favors if she was unable to bare a full-blooded heiress...

[5w337x7007h]

So Kiska's goal is to gather materials for a miracle in hopes that she can gain Lolths favor and rid her body of the 'impurities'. Gather the artifact, and eventually take her place as the head. I'm figuring she'll probably become pure either by 20 or before then, but at 20th level she'll take on a whole new appearance. I'm thinking an ash white drow, deep black hair, and solid black eyes. Something that would fit the embodiment of the Dark Tapestry.

"Upon reaching 20th level, you become a truly alien and unnatural creature. You gain damage reduction 5/— and immunity to acid, critical hits, and sneak attacks. Once per day, you can cast shapechange as a spell-like ability without requiring a material component." Quoted from Ultimate Magic under the Oracle's Dark Tapestry Mystery.

[Shinken]

So Kiska's goal is to gather materials for a miracle in hopes that she can gain Lolths favor and rid her body of the 'impurities'. Gather the artifact, and eventually take her place as the head. I'm figuring she'll probably become pure either by 20 or before then, but at 20th level she'll take on a whole new appearance. I'm thinking an ash white drow, deep black hair, and solid black eyes. Something that would fit the embodiment of the Dark Tapestry.

A szarkai, then.

[Coidzor]

How long does it take a Drow to gestate an infant? I seem to recall with Elves it tends to be around a year to a year and a half. Drow might engage in magics and dark ritual to speed up the process, though.

Who knows, maybe to preserve their figures, Drow Matrons end up magicking their infants out of their bodies and into over-sized spider eggs. :smallamused:

For a Drow Matriarch to breed with something to create an heir is basically unthinkable given the default, Greenwood-derived fluff, and for it to become thinkable, the House would basically be dead already and the Matriarch basically a dead Drow scheming (but then, what else is new with Drow?). That it should happen without some clear advantage over normal Drow reproduction is even more so. So there needs to be some incentive there. Like, the Drow Matriarch herself doesn't need to actually serve as an incubator for the child and can make use of a surrogate or it's even a species where the male gestates the fetus. Or one that gestates and matures quickly while yielding an eventual offspring not that different from a drow.

The main exceptions to that sort of thing generally being fiends and dragons, IIRC. Especially as certain fiends can get impregnated, go off and do their fiendish thing, and then deliver the half-fiendish whelp back to the mortal parent or, even, a designated third party. As to how a Drow Matriarch would impregnate a fiend, well, that's an exercise for the reader.


Not the villain, a character in a party. This is a backstory for my half-drow in the Half-Dead City campaign my friend is playing. We've got a drow fighter in the party and he's part of a patriarchy, which is very out-of-character for drow. She's playing along with the group because her goals fall in line with theirs, explore the necropolis to find what she's looking for.

Drow renegade society that's patriarchical or renegade Drow that joined another non-Drow society that's patriarchical?


She, Olorvrae, grew tired of bearing such boys and beheaded her mate, seeking out someone who could help her bare a girl.

Everything else seems to check out given the premise, I suppose, but a Drow Matron having a single mate just seems... off somehow :smallconfused:


I noticed you all saying that drow are CE, but I've read up a little that the drow society is highly militaristic with heavy religious overtones and there's even a court of order. What is going on with that? It seems drow are naturally evil, but their goals affect their alignment. Some of the examples I've seen could lead to LE, NE, or even CE. Aside from the select few like Drizzt.

IIRC, Greater Drow Society is basically NE-to-CE. To my best recollection, the commoners are basically any non-Good, leaning-towards Evil and Chaos but Evil more-so-than-Chaos.

Drow Nobility, though? They're CE as it comes because non-CE nobles are generally killed first or outcast and form the basis for renegade Drow societies, and the only reason they haven't all killed one another or had one single house rise to the top and establish a hegemony if nothing else is the direct and near-constant support and intervention of Lolth. And the nobles have a lot of power, to the point where they've the ability to get away with murder of commoners without even having to really try to cover it up at all, and they're what gets the most press followed by the priesthood of Lolth.

The priesthood itself when divorced from the drow nobles varies from source to source, to the point where I can't recall what the default is. I think it depends upon the particular drow citystate. :smallconfused:

You'll sometimes have LE and NE drow nobles who survive, but they're generally in some capacity that may have some power but is divorced from politics for the most part and not held in esteem by Lolth. Which is how you could, conceivably, have an LE male Drow noble in charge of an Academy of Magic. Or being the head of the city-state's agricultural bureaucracy, basically having little power of interest to a Drow and a position that's basically completely forgettable to the typical Drow Noble who generally thinks that food either comes from slaves, in some nebulous, ill-defined way, or surface raids.


This raises a bit of a question. If Kiska confronts her mother, would her mother allow Kiska to kill her?

Not without proving her capabilities. Arguably this might be one of those cases where failure could very well lead to something other than death for the daughter.

The punishment could possibly be a fate worse than death, though, such as if she were reduced to breeding stock for her mother or half-brother(s) in order to produce a mostly-Drow daughter for the Matron to claim as her own. One does not want to assume a slap-on-the-wrist, even if a Drow does not want to kill someone, after all.

[5w337x7007h]

A szarkai, then.
Szarkai are rather alien when compared to the rest of Drow Society. So Kiska is a half-drow growing in power. With minimal outside influence, she must claim the artifact or die trying, redeem herself in the eyes of Lolth, and overall take up the head after killing her mother.
I've got a great idea as to how she'll murder her mother. She'll find a Soul Piton, run her mother through, and pin her to the wall with it. (Soul Piton is an idea I remember from Betrayers of Kamigawa book cycle)
It will keep her mother alive for as long as she wants and Kiska will feed her mother to herself overtime, until she's reached the soul piton, but not before the woman is nothing but torso and head.

[5w337x7007h]

I found an interesting name.. Eilistraee, a good-aligned drow goddess.

[Coidzor]

I found an interesting name.. Eilistraee, a good-aligned drow goddess.

Yep, though she'd tend more towards making a character into a non-drow elf if anything. In fact, she did that once when she died, causing a bunch of drow to turn into surface elves.

[lytokk]

I know its not on the table, but if the reincarnate spell could turn you into an elf, it should be able to turn you into a full blooded drow too. Part of the ritual could involve finding a druid of Lolth, and sacrificing yourself as a complete test of faith, only to be reincarnated as a full blooded drow. Most of this is going to end up coming down to DM fiat anyway.

One big concern I'd have is that half-elves in general don't have the lifespan of full elves. So while she could take over her house without becoming a full drow, her life expectancy would be so short she might not be able to accomplish it.

[5w337x7007h]

Well I've consulted my GM and he's allowed my character to be true-blood drow, so I don't need to go through the whole mess of 'cleansing' my character of the half that isn't drow. That comes with rebuying stats as well. So I cut down on my dex, and boosted up my int so I can speak common now, seeing as Drow only start with Elven and Undercommon. She's here to claim an artifact and prove herself to Lolth, as the citystate beneath Ustalav is being rebuilt. The whole Whispering Tyrant conquering devastated the underdark all the drow fled and Lolth has tasked Kiska's house with rebuilding the Citystate. Kiska's quest is supposedly to find an artifact that will expedite the process.

[atemu1234]

Drow blood has a strong tendency to be dominant over other elfin bloods, so any other breed of elf + drow would equal drow, and there's a surprising number of mixed-breeds in high drow houses (read that in one of the sourcebooks) though none of them wants to admit it.

Creating a half-drow half-anything-besides-possibly-dragon-or-demon is usually the result of the drow forcing itself on the thing in question, so no, those are usually bastards. To preserve a bloodline there are magical ways to reproduce (though most are third party) and sometimes the bloodlines change a bit (sometimes they give their name to commoners who prove themselves worthy, thus preserving the bloodline). It's considered an honor by drow females to bear half-fiend children, a gift from lolth, and half-dragons are notably powerful, so they probably wouldn't be against that. Otherwise, however, I don't see it happening to preserve a bloodline.

[Arbane]

Well I've consulted my GM and he's allowed my character to be true-blood drow, so I don't need to go through the whole mess of 'cleansing' my character of the half that isn't drow.

Pity. I just found this spell, which might have been useful inspiration: Half-Blood Extraction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/half-blood-extraction).

[atemu1234]

Well I've consulted my GM and he's allowed my character to be true-blood drow, so I don't need to go through the whole mess of 'cleansing' my character of the half that isn't drow. That comes with rebuying stats as well. So I cut down on my dex, and boosted up my int so I can speak common now, seeing as Drow only start with Elven and Undercommon. She's here to claim an artifact and prove herself to Lolth, as the citystate beneath Ustalav is being rebuilt. The whole Whispering Tyrant conquering devastated the underdark all the drow fled and Lolth has tasked Kiska's house with rebuilding the Citystate. Kiska's quest is supposedly to find an artifact that will expedite the process.

Not to anyone in particular, but I personally hate it when a topic's conversation becomes moot. What are we going to do now? We have good topics to talk about, but because they have no bearing on the original discussion anymore, we can't really talk about them on this thread.

Again, not angry at OP, just ranting to fill the void.

[Phelix-Mu]

Not to anyone in particular, but I personally hate it when a topic's conversation becomes moot. What are we going to do now? We have good topics to talk about, but because they have no bearing on the original discussion anymore, we can't really talk about them on this thread.

Again, not angry at OP, just ranting to fill the void.

Pointless conversation is a contradiction in terms on the intarwebz. If all there was was pointless conversation, conversate we still would, and with great ardor and vigor, to boot. For thus it has been decreed on the stone tablets of Berners-Lee, Godwin, Stormwind, and many others, that the net should be filled with a great and incessant noise, both enlightening and maddening in equal measure.

Here's to a bit of maddening.:smallwink:

[tadkins]

What you could also do is make Kiska so badass that she's strong enough to keep her power despite knowledge of her halfblood heritage. Could go something like this.

Kiska: [in Drow] So you all will know the seriousness of my warning, I shall say this in Common.
Kiska: [in Common] As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced that a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo. Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Drow or Human heritage as a negative is... I collect your head. Just like this fool here. Now, if any of you sons of maggots got anything else to say, now's the time!
[pause]
Kiska: I didn't think so.
Kiska: [calmly, in Drow] Gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned.

[Pan151]

Lolth appreciates being amused above all else - chaos and slaughter are just the two most common in the list of things that she finds amusing. Whether an individual is good or evil, lawful or chaotic, noble or peasant means nothing to her, even if her clergy pretends otherwise - in her afterlife, both the highest ranking priestess and the lowest servant are equally likely to be devoured by demons before they make it to her realm, and one of the most famous people that she has bestowed her favor upon is that-CG-Drow-that-must-not-be-named.

So, don't worry if you're drow enough or evil enough - just be sufficiently ammusing and Lolth will look upon you with favor.

And always remember, never, EVER, hurt a spider.

[JHShadon]

Lolth appreciates being amused above all else - chaos and slaughter are just the two most common in the list of things that she finds amusing. Whether an individual is good or evil, lawful or chaotic, noble or peasant means nothing to her, even if her clergy pretends otherwise - in her afterlife, both the highest ranking priestess and the lowest servant are equally likely to be devoured by demons before they make it to her realm, and one of the most famous people that she has bestowed her favor upon is that-CG-Drow-that-must-not-be-named.

So, don't worry if you're drow enough or evil enough - just be sufficiently ammusing and Lolth will look upon you with favor.

And always remember, never, EVER, hurt a spider.

No wonder she's called LOLth. :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

And always remember, never, EVER, hurt a spider.

But feel free to invent new and amusing ways to torment Driders. They failed Lolth's tests; they deserve it.

[Psyren]

I'm confused - this thread has the Pathfinder tag, so why is everyone talking about Lolth? Or is it just using the mechanics from Pathfinder and the setting from FR?

In Golarion, Drow are matriarchal because women are about 90% more likely to be Nobles (more powerful Drow) than males; also, they tend to worship Lamashtu who is female. But she favors gnolls/canids more than spiders.

[5w337x7007h]

I'm thankful for all of your ideas, and people can look upon this thread for ideas and such as they progress through their own campaigns as new adventurers. Please do not consider this thread moot, but a symbol of what all people go through when they create their own characters.
Some prefer continuity, others prefer to improvisation.

[Ettina]

She also believes males are inferior (though it's not clear quite how she came to this conclusion other than being nominally female herself, if gods can have gender)

In most species of spiders, males are smaller and weaker than females. Many of these males also have to worry about being eaten by their mate during or after sex.

So it makes perfect sense that a spider goddess would think males were inferior.

[Phelix-Mu]

In most species of spiders, males are smaller and weaker than females. Many of these males also have to worry about being eaten by their mate during or after sex.

So it makes perfect sense that a spider goddess would think males were inferior.

To the best of my knowledge, the goddess that went on to become Lolth was not originally affiliated with spiders. But I could be wrong about that. Thus, a bit of the chicken and egg issue.

My point was less about matriarchal societies (which are actually quite sensible and well-represented irl in the animal kingdoms), but more about gods and gender. She was supposedly the consort of Corellon, who is rather notoriously represented as both male and female. Thus, I was implying that, in her original incarnation, she may have had a similarly gender-blurred nature (because gender is pretty trivial when one is a divine being, unless it's part of one's portfolio or the makeup of one's dogma). After or around the Sundering, she changes a bunch of her views, though I honestly don't know what they were originally (though I think her name was Angarrash or something starting with "a").

[Pan151]

As far as I have read in the various FR novels, Lolth herself does not really discriminate against males - or anyone, for that matter (whenever her avatar descends to the material plane, she actually prefers to stay in the poorest neigboorhoods along with the slaves and the commoners). It's her clergy that enforces discrimination based on gender and class, and Lolth just goes along with it. Presumably for the lol(th)s (sorry, couldn't resist).

[5w337x7007h]

As far as I have read in the various FR novels, Lolth herself does not really discriminate against males - or anyone, for that matter (whenever her avatar descends to the material plane, she actually prefers to stay in the poorest neigboorhoods along with the slaves and the commoners). It's her clergy that enforces discrimination based on gender and class, and Lolth just goes along with it. Presumably for the lol(th)s (sorry, couldn't resist).

It could be that Lolth is Chaotic Evil in that sense. And even a false sense of order makes her uncomfortable, so she prefers the company of those who do not desire to keep that veil if they can get away with it.
It could also be that she wishes to stir up chaos among the hierarchy by giving the weak powers that allow them to rise up. A special dagger, a powerful poison. In the hands of drow, even the smallest foothold could lead to toppling a house.

[tomandtish]

Lolth appreciates being amused above all else - chaos and slaughter are just the two most common in the list of things that she finds amusing. Whether an individual is good or evil, lawful or chaotic, noble or peasant means nothing to her, even if her clergy pretends otherwise - in her afterlife, both the highest ranking priestess and the lowest servant are equally likely to be devoured by demons before they make it to her realm, and one of the most famous people that she has bestowed her favor upon is that-CG-Drow-that-must-not-be-named.

So, don't worry if you're drow enough or evil enough - just be sufficiently ammusing and Lolth will look upon you with favor.

And always remember, never, EVER, hurt a spider.

This is the important thing to realize. Lolth likes testing her faithful. She also loves her some chaos. She's quite capable of allowing a half-drow to take control of a house and seeing how well she does, especially if she thinks any revelation down the road will contribute to chaos.

After all, there is a lot of speculation within the novels themselves that Drizzt Do'Urden is actually a Chosen of Lolth, even though he doesn't know it and wouldn't want it.


What you could also do is make Kiska so badass that she's strong enough to keep her power despite knowledge of her halfblood heritage. Could go something like this.

Kiska: [in Drow] So you all will know the seriousness of my warning, I shall say this in Common.
Kiska: [in Common] As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced that a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo. Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Drow or Human heritage as a negative is... I collect your head. Just like this fool here. Now, if any of you sons of maggots got anything else to say, now's the time!
[pause]
Kiska: I didn't think so.
Kiska: [calmly, in Drow] Gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned.


Someone's been watching Kill Bill... :smallsmile:

[atemu1234]

What you could also do is make Kiska so badass that she's strong enough to keep her power despite knowledge of her halfblood heritage. Could go something like this.

Kiska: [in Drow] So you all will know the seriousness of my warning, I shall say this in Common.
Kiska: [in Common] As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced that a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo. Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Drow or Human heritage as a negative is... I collect your head. Just like this fool here. Now, if any of you sons of maggots got anything else to say, now's the time!
[pause]
Kiska: I didn't think so.
Kiska: [calmly, in Drow] Gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned.

BRB, making an NPC for my campaigns.

[5w337x7007h]

BRB, making an NPC for my campaigns.

You'll need to pay for licensing, I think 50 internet points should do.

[atemu1234]

You'll need to pay for licensing, I think 50 internet points should do.

Paid in full, my friend.

[Psyren]

BRB, making an NPC for my campaigns.

You do know he basically got that whole thing from Kill Bill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDCDmchtTg) right? :smalltongue:

[tadkins]

You do know he basically got that whole thing from Kill Bill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDCDmchtTg) right? :smalltongue:

Yep, the thread just reminded me of that part. xD