How can Paizo runs without bankrupting itself?

[With a box]

they post everything they published on pfsrd for free, aren't they?

[Sartharina]

they post everything they published on pfsrd for free, aren't they?

Not adventure paths. And, books are easier to navigate.

[Snowbluff]

Not adventure paths. And, books are easier to navigate.

This pretty much. You beat me to it. I won't pay for the books, but my PF DMs have the rulebooks and a bunch of adventure paths.

The d20pfsrd site is easier for me to use, though.

[Kudaku]

D20PFSRD contains the crunch in their books, but not the fluff/flavour. If you want to play in a homebrew setting and you make your own adventures then PFSRD has everything you need, but if you want to run APs set in Golarion you'll need stuff not covered on the website.

That said, Pathfinder Wiki is a nice place to look up stuff in Golarion - it's nowhere near as comprehensive as the various primer books on regions etc, but it gives you the highlights.

I'd also like to point out that PFSRD is one of the biggest reasons why I play Pathfinder - being able to look up basically anything rules-related whenever I want is a huge boon for me. If the PFSRD (and to a lesser degree the PRD) didn't exist I'd probably be much less inclined to support Paizo or play Pathfinder. At least in my case, allowing Pathfinder content to be online is an incredibly potent customer retention strategy.

[Ilorin Lorati]

They don't post onto the PFSRD - they post to the PRD, which is on their website.

Paizo makes money off a few things. A couple were mentioned by Sartharina and Snowbluff, though.

They do:


Adventures (Modules/APs)
Minis
Books have art and lore that isn't available online.
PFS, which requires a purchased book to use a given class, and has cross promotions with all their other product lines.
Fiction such as the comics and Pathfinder Tales novels
3pp sales - the Paizo store may be the most popular site for other publishers to put their Pathfinder-compatible material
Physical accessories such as battlemats, dice, and cards
merchandise (clothing, plushes, etc)
Non-d20 games like Pathfinder Online (which is more a money sink than anything else right now, but lets you preorder for anywhere between $35 and $5000) and the ACG



Basically, Pathfinder is their linchpin - but I'm not even sure the actual supplement books make up the majority of their sales. If anything, it's likely their APs which make up the lion's share of their profits.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Pathfinder Society requires that you have a copy of each book (paper or PDF) from which you use abilities. Most GMs are pretty lax about this, but you're still strongly encouraged to buy some of the books. The PDFs are actually rather fairly priced, so there's plenty of people who'll pick them up. Also, it can take some time for new material to make it onto the various websites, so active and eager players are likely to pick up the books ASAP.

Mix in all the other merchandise that Paizo sells, and the company is doing fine.

[Raven777]

Also, it's worth saying that the books are really, really pretty. Looking at you, Inner Sea World Guide.

[Twilightwyrm]

3rd party support helps, AP sales help, sales of non-core books help, but ultimately, people are willing to pay for convenience for something they enjoy. While the website is very helpful, I know I, and I'd wager many other people, still find having the book there at the table rather convenient. And since you know you like and play the game, you are going to be more likely to invest in buying the (somewhat pricy) books. Weigh that verses not being sure the book/system you are getting will be worth it, and that online accessibility is looking pretty nice.

[Elkad]

A book is almost never "easier to navigate". Searching is so much quicker, and a proper hyperlinked document lets you jump to any other related page from your current one instantly.


Books are nice, but mighty outdated for a rules reference.

[Tvtyrant]

Basically it can make money because it isn't really selling Pathfinder, it is selling peripherals. It was made in the post SRD world, and is close enough to that set of rules that it would have had a hard time selling the 3 core books the way D&D does. Instead it sells lots of other stuff that people will pay money for, like pre-made adventures.

[Anlashok]

It's actually a marketing strategy in and of itself. Paizo realizes that book purchasing is a massive barrier of entry to players and DMs. You buy a CRB and a bunch of important peripherals before you can even really get started with the game (worse for D&D where your "core" is three separate books).

By putting core materials online, a player suddenly doesn't have to be so worried about that. A DM can test the game without purchasing it, or simply go straight to buying adventure or setting books that they're interested in checking out without being repulsed monetarily. Removing pressure from DMs and players like this is actually a pretty big deal when it comes to selling things and goes in line with modern sales philosophies for content like this.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Also, it's is notable that although all the rules for Clerics are on the PRD, the rules for Golarion's deities (their domains, favored weapons) are not.

[Snowbluff]

Archives of Nethys has them, if you care at all.

[3WhiteFox3]

It's actually a marketing strategy in and of itself. Paizo realizes that book purchasing is a massive barrier of entry to players and DMs. You buy a CRB and a bunch of important peripherals before you can even really get started with the game (worse for D&D where your "core" is three separate books).

By putting core materials online, a player suddenly doesn't have to be so worried about that. A DM can test the game without purchasing it, or simply go straight to buying adventure or setting books that they're interested in checking out without being repulsed monetarily. Removing pressure from DMs and players like this is actually a pretty big deal when it comes to selling things and goes in line with modern sales philosophies for content like this.

It's a pretty brilliant strategy actually, the crunch is all placed online, so that there's no pressure to get this book or that book in order to play the character you want. The setting-specific stuff and the flavor is all placed in the supplemental books, so that each setting book or each less mechanically inclined book can have more space dedicated to flavor instead of mechanics. Basically, in 3.5 a lot of the desire for collecting the books is to get access to the mechanics introduced in that book, in Pathfinder that pressure is relieved so that no one feels like they have to buy something that they don't necessarily want. While those who do want to buy physical copies have numerous reasons to do so.

It's proven to be a very successful strategy so far, and it works perfectly with the modern market. Not everyone has the money to obsessively buy every book, but if they start out with the SRD and become enthralled with the system, they'll probably buy books eventually. Basically they are allowing the SRD to be their advertisement without having to actually put money into advertising themselves. The product speaks for itself because it is freely available for each person to judge for themselves.

[Roxxy]

And, books are easier to navigate.That's a big factor. I do use the PFSRD when I'm at school and want to look up specific rules, but I much prefer the feel of a book. I've bought a lot of them. I have some 3PP PDFs (which I mostly purchased through Paizo), but I find I don't use them like I use books, even though I do have a tablet. I just like books. Then again, I work in a library, so when it comes to the benefits of books I'm just about the most biased source there is.

[Psyren]

D20PFSRD contains the crunch in their books, but not the fluff/flavour.

Actually it does contain lots of fluff (e.g. all the ARG entries for every race - for example, Elf. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf)) The Golarion-specific stuff isn't there, but they simply moved that to a different site (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/) (i.e. one without a storefront, due to a vagary of the PFRPG license.)


A book is almost never "easier to navigate". Searching is so much quicker, and a proper hyperlinked document lets you jump to any other related page from your current one instantly.

Books are nice, but mighty outdated for a rules reference.

You're ignoring ergonomics. Books have the advantage of not staring into a low-intensity lightbulb for hours, especially when many of us do that for 40+ hours a week and want a break :smalltongue:

SRDs are also ill-suited for browsing. If you know what you're looking for they're fantastic, but if I'm simply flipping through idly or for inspiration I find that books tend to draw my attention to details I might otherwise miss on a cold/austere website.

[Shinken]

Some books are good because of their focus. I'm definitely going to get the Technology Guide, for example.
I might guess the Advanced Class Guide if only because I can't wait to use it.

[Psyren]

I have all the core product line (Advanced and Ultimate books) hard copy and ACG will be no different.

One of my FLGS closed its doors though :smallfrown:

[With a box]

Advanced Glass Guide? Dose it have how to make force glass?

[NightbringerGGZ]

Hmm... I should probably point out that a few publishing companies have been testing the idea of releasing free content online in order to boost sales of other products.

For example, take a look at Baen publishing. Way back when all the Naptser lawsuits were going on they started releasing free e-books, usually of the first few books in long series. They noticed a significant increase in sales of newer books in the series, so they released more free books. They even provided CDs along with new hardcovers of really long series that included every previous book in the series. The company has wound up doing very well for what was once a very small and unknown publisher.

Amazon is also playing with this idea with Amazon Prime, though they're charging you a monthly fee for it. Still, $20 for movies, TV shows, books and free shipping & handling isn't a bad service.

[Sartharina]

A book is almost never "easier to navigate". Searching is so much quicker, and a proper hyperlinked document lets you jump to any other related page from your current one instantly.


Books are nice, but mighty outdated for a rules reference.On the contrary, you can have several books open to double-pages loaded with complete information, and can be navigated with your hands on your character sheet. And, the layout tends to be more legible. With a web page, you have to have multiple tabs open - but only one visible at any given time without unusual adaptation to the interfac, and most don't show a full page - you have to scroll and click a lot, and it's harder to move a computer around than a book.

[facelessminion]

Another reason they stay afloat is that the PDFs for their books are very reasonably priced. It makes it easy to justify purchasing them, where buying a 40 plus dollar one may be a bit harder to swallow.

[With a box]

On the contrary, you can have several books open to double-pages loaded with complete information, and can be navigated with your hands on your character sheet. And, the layout tends to be more legible. With a web page, you have to have multiple tabs open - but only one visible at any given time without unusual adaptation to the interfac, and most don't show a full page - you have to scroll and click a lot, and it's harder to move a computer around than a book.

how are you deal with erratas? put sticky notes on it?

[Sayt]

how are you deal with erratas? put sticky notes on it?

Literally what I did with my Dark Heresy book.

[Squirrel_Dude]

how are you deal with erratas? put sticky notes on it?It'd be clunky, but more reliable than the paizo prd at this point.

[Stone Heart]

My group has multiple copies of a lot of the hardcovers, because we each wanted our own. We like their product, so we wanted to support the company. We don't buy everything, but we mostly play homebrew campaigns so setting specific stuff isn't as important.

[Twilightwyrm]

A book is almost never "easier to navigate". Searching is so much quicker, and a proper hyperlinked document lets you jump to any other related page from your current one instantly.


Books are nice, but mighty outdated for a rules reference.

Initially perhaps, but once you've read through the book and used it for a bit, it does actually become more efficient. For example, a person that has used the book will be able to, for example, find the entry for skeletons in the MMI, Character Wealth by Level in the DMG, and/or grapple rules in the PBH much more quickly than anyone using pdfs of the same books from a computer. With a book things like approximation, physical memory, and habit make referencing rules much easier in the fly with a book than a pdf, or the srd.

[Killer Angel]

Also, it's worth saying that the books are really, really pretty.

...and not all the players are students with money problems. People with a consolidated job, are happy to spend some bucks to have the books of the system they're playing with.

[RelentlessImp]

Because they're still ignoring the Beta Test incident and idiotic designer-writer incidents so they can still ride the train of people praising them for making Pathfinder when 3.5 went defunct so people are happy to pay for the books to keep the company keeping 'their game' alive.

[Elkad]

Initially perhaps, but once you've read through the book and used it for a bit, it does actually become more efficient. For example, a person that has used the book will be able to, for example, find the entry for skeletons in the MMI, Character Wealth by Level in the DMG, and/or grapple rules in the PBH much more quickly than anyone using pdfs of the same books from a computer. With a book things like approximation, physical memory, and habit make referencing rules much easier in the fly with a book than a pdf, or the srd.

A PDF isn't a hypertext document (usually anyway). d20srd, on the other hand, you pull up the monster, and then center-click it's abilities or whatever you need to reference (spawning all those in new tabs), and flip through the tabs.

Besides people with SRD or RPTools on their phones, tablets and chromebooks, we usually plug a laptop into a big TV (I think 42" is the smallest at any of our game locations) and can hand it (or just the wireless mouse) around. Paper books are for stuff that isn't available any other way. And even then, if it's something you don't actually know the page number for already, searching a PDF is as fast as hitting the index/glossary.

When it's pulled up, throw it at the big monitor and the whole table can see it.

PHB/DMG/MM1 never even make it out of the cars. No point, everything is faster, more legible (no sidebars to dodge), errata-corrected, hyper-linked and searchable electronically.
If the DM brings in MM1, we start prepping to meet a mind flayer or beholder.
XP table? Simple sum of a series (in thousands), 3rd grade algebra anyone can do in their head.
Some combat rule you don't remember? Swallow whole on a Purple Worm?
Whoever has the mouse hits Home(SRD)>Special Abilities>Swallow whole, and zoom till the whole table can read the rule. 2 seconds
Or SRD>Monster>Purple Worm>Swallow Whole if you can't remember it's under special abilities. 3 seconds

If Wizards would make the entire 3.5 ruleset into one giant hyperlinked document, I'd happily give them a couple hundred bucks at least. And if they don't do 5e that way, they are idiots. Every time a new book comes out, just integrate it into the total document. Charge me $10/month to access the complete up-to-date ruleset. I don't play PF, but Paizo could do the same. One big html dump, subscription.

[Snowbluff]

I don't know about yours, but my backup PDF (in case I can't get online) for the core rulebook the has internal links. It's an old copy, though. I never updated it. :smalltongue:

You know, I wonder if the free material has more than one reason for existing. I'm only the son of a lawyer, but I suspect they might have been worried about copyright even with the OGL. Everything works out more simply if it's free.

[Kurald Galain]

Also worth mentioning here is that Paizo keeps its costs low. Obviously, to avoid bankrupting yourself, you need to have good revenue and also low costs.

According to inside sources, WOTC spends way more money on employees, legal/accounting overhead, and office rental than Paizo does. In addition, WOTC sells most of their books via third party retailers, meaning they get substantially less income on them; and royalties from spinoff products go to Hasbro instead of WOTC. All these differences add up: Paizo is clearly doing well for themselves, whereas there are strong indications that WOTC's 4E D&D was never profitable in the first place. Not that WOTC will bankrupt themselves any time soon, because they have MtG.