Why doesn't V wear that Ioun Stone?

[1337Noooob]

Blackwing stole Laurin's bauble, so why does no one in the OOTS or at least on the Mechane use it? It's not like it has any encumbrance as it's supposed to float around your head.

[Bird]

Options:

1. Blackwing doesn't want to give it up.

2. V forgot about it.

3. V hasn't identified it yet, and doesn't like to use unidentified magic.

4. It's annoying (either for the artist or the character) to have a little bauble always floating around your head.

[DaggerPen]

I've been trying to figure that out, myself. It's possible that V hasn't finished identifying it yet, or that V finds it distracting/doesn't want to risk anything happening to it and only intends to put it on during combat or combat-likely situations.

[Ron Miel]

Blackwing took it, spoils of battle, it now belongs to her fair and square. For V to steal it wouid be a **** move, and he's trying to be a better master.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Just FYI, there is already a thread for this, located here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363346-What-happenned-to-Laurin-s-ioun-stone). I think that Blackwing still has the stone, but we can't say for sure what's going on.

[zimmerwald1915]

4. It's annoying (either for the artist or the character) to have a little bauble always floating around your head.
Possible corollary: neither the artist nor the character gives a damn, and they both have better things to do than nail down the position of an ioun stone when they can instead leave the forum to debate endlessly about it.

[Keltest]

Possible corollary: neither the artist nor the character gives a damn, and they both have better things to do than nail down the position of an ioun stone when they can instead leave the forum to debate endlessly about it.

It follows the rule of magic items that aren't tools of course. At any given point in any comic, the stone is simply behind V's head relative to the "camera", so its there outside of our vision.

[Yendor]

:vaarsuvius: The marginal utility of enhanced arcane performance is inadequate compensation for the continual distraction a scintillating object orbiting my person will cause my familiar.

Ten gold says it's getting sold at the next stop.

[zimmerwald1915]

:vaarsuvius: The marginal utility of enhanced arcane performance is inadequate compensation for the continual distraction a scintillating object orbiting my person will cause my familiar.

Ten gold says it's getting sold at the next stop.
Wager accepted.

[factotum]

How do we know he'd even want to use the stone? For example, it might be one that grants a +2 Charisma bonus, which might have been useful for Laurin (depending what kind of psion she was) but wouldn't be useful for V at all.

[Keltest]

How do we know he'd even want to use the stone? For example, it might be one that grants a +2 Charisma bonus, which might have been useful for Laurin (depending what kind of psion she was) but wouldn't be useful for V at all.

Based on analysis by people with better vision than I, it appears to be the +1 caster level stone. Something V would very much desire.

[Coidzor]

:vaarsuvius: The marginal utility of enhanced arcane performance is inadequate compensation for the continual distraction a scintillating object orbiting my person will cause my familiar.

Ten gold says it's getting sold at the next stop.

Given Strip 959, they very well may need to hawk it, aye.

[Kish]

Blackwing took it, spoils of battle, it now belongs to her fair and square. For V to steal it wouid be a **** move, and he's trying to be a better master.
Yes, this.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How do we know he'd even want to use the stone? For example, it might be one that grants a +2 Charisma bonus, which might have been useful for Laurin (depending what kind of psion she was) but wouldn't be useful for V at all.

The stone that Blackwing grabbed was orange, which, according to the SRD, means it gives +1 to CL. Selling it might be a good idea, since it is fairly expensive.

[archon_huskie]

Also, given what we know about Tarkin's team, it's likely to be cursed in some way to prevent people other than Laurin from using it.

V knows this and does not want to start using it until she's sure that it is safe to use.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given what we know of Tarkin's team, I wouldn't be surprised if the ioun stone is made out of the gall bladder of a baby unicorn.

[Keltest]

Given what we know of Tarkin's team, I wouldn't be surprised if the ioun stone is made out of the gall bladder of a baby unicorn.

usually removing stones from organs like that is a good thing...

Now, made from crystalized baby unicorn internal fluids drained over 3 days, that I could see happening.

[CrispyCriminal]

Also, given what we know about Tarkin's team, it's likely to be cursed in some way to prevent people other than Laurin from using it.

V knows this and does not want to start using it until she's sure that it is safe to use.

That would certainly explain why blackwing was sick, though if they intend to sell it it's probably best they don't mention it (provided they don't remove the curse if possible).

[Emanick]

I actually expect it to be a minor or moderate plot point. The Giant knew what he was doing when he introduced it, I assume; giving V a useful magical item that hir familiar also wants is an idea with interesting potential - plus, as we know, he likes to give OOTS members visible upgrades and new powers from time to time, and giving hir an ioun stone would be a particularly good way of doing that, IMO.

It'll probably serve some fairly minor but not insignificant story purpose at some point down the road, like Roy's belt.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That would certainly explain why blackwing was sick, though if they intend to sell it it's probably best they don't mention it (provided they don't remove the curse if possible).

I think Blackwing explained well enough why he was sick.

[bpzinn]

The stone that Blackwing grabbed was orange, which, according to the SRD, means it gives +1 to CL. Selling it might be a good idea, since it is fairly expensive.

Would a Psionic Ioun Stone actually help a Arcane Caster? It could be the case where V has 0 psionic abilities, which he can cast at level 0. Being able to cast his nonexistent psionic abilities at level one does not help much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would a Psionic Ioun Stone actually help a Arcane Caster? It could be the case where V has 0 psionic abilities, which he can cast at level 0. Being able to cast his nonexistent psionic abilities at level one does not help much.

I think the stone helps you regardless of what system of magic you use. It should benefit manifesters and casters.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, thanks to the magic/psionics transparency rules. One is the other for all intents and purposes (detect magic, protection from psionics, etc).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, thanks to the magic/psionics transparency rules. One is the other for all intents and purposes (detect magic, protection from psionics, etc).

Okay, I don't know much about psionics, so I wasn't sure if it worked like that. Thanks for the confirmation.

[ace rooster]

A powerful and rare item that was previously in the ownership of an enemy that is a teleportation specialist? I would never take it out of a lead box, and sell it at the first opportunity. It makes finding you far too easy, and can be used tactically against you.

[zimmerwald1915]

A powerful and rare item that was previously in the ownership of an enemy that is a teleportation specialist? I would never take it out of a lead box, and sell it at the first opportunity. It makes finding you far too easy, and can be used tactically against you.
That's what the scrying bafflers and dimensional locks are for. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) Not that V has ever been particularly careful about shielding herself from her enemies. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)

[bpzinn]

Yeah, thanks to the magic/psionics transparency rules. One is the other for all intents and purposes (detect magic, protection from psionics, etc).

That is not what Magic/psionics transparency rules mean. It means Psions can dispel and detect clerical and arcane magics, and vice versa. It does not mean that the stones that reserve power points are useful to casters, Or that psions can use rings of wizadry.

Spontaneous Arcane magic has differences from Prepared Arcane magic, and neither stack with Divine Magic. None of which are Psionics.

Wizards cannot use power point reserve magic items, even with transparency in effect, and Psions have a Manifester Level, not a Caster Level. Psions cannot use scrolls, even if is is identical in effect to a power they have. Psions cannot use Wands, Wizards cannot use djores. So I think this a a psionic version that improves Manifester Level, and is useful to all Psionic Classes, but is useless to a wizard.

[Keltest]

That is not what Magic/psionics transparency rules means. It means Psions can dispel and detect clerical and arcane magics, and vice versa. It does not mean that the stones that reserve power points are useful to casters, Or that psions can use rings of wizadry.

Spontaneous Arcane magic has differences from Prepared Arcane magic, and neither stack with Divine Magic. None of which are Psionics.

Wizards cannot use power point reserve magic items, even with transparency in effect, and Psions have a Manifester Level, not a Caster Level. Psions cannot use scrolls, even if is is identical in effect to a power they have. Psions cannot use Wands, Wizards cannot use djores. So I think this a a psionic version that improves Manifester Level, and is useful to all Psionic Classes, but is useless to a wizard.

An orange Ioun stone adds +1 to caster level, and the stone taken from Laurin is orange. Rich could of course decide to use a homebrewed stone specifically for the purposes of denying the stone to V, but if he never intended the stone to be kept by the party (and it wouldn't be kept if it couldn't be used) he wouldn't have shown them obtaining it.

Plus, with regards to transparency rules, +caster level items do actually translate to + Manifester level.

[Porthos]

but if he never intended the stone to be kept by the party (and it wouldn't be kept if it couldn't be used) he wouldn't have shown them obtaining it.

He could have introduced it to show that V has learned a valuable lesson about MOAR DAKKA and will let Blackwing keep his baubble even though it would have more 'practical' use to V.

(what happens after that isn't germane to my overall point)

[Keltest]

He could have introduced it to show that V has learned a valuable lesson about MOAR DAKKA and will let Blackwing keep his baubble even though it would have more 'practical' use to V.

(what happens after that isn't germane to my overall point)

Theres "practical" and then theres "throwing away an asset." Even if V knows that more Dakka isn't always the answer now, an increased caster level can be beneficial in other ways. There are 2 other casters in the party after all, and Haley and/or Roy would almost certainly object to the idea that V is using something as powerful and useful as an ioun stone to line the nonexistent nest of his smart aleck familiar.

[Porthos]

Theres "practical" and then theres "throwing away an asset." Even if V knows that more Dakka isn't always the answer now, an increased caster level can be beneficial in other ways. There are 2 other casters in the party after all, and Haley and/or Roy would almost certainly object to the idea that V is using something as powerful and useful as an ioun stone to line the nonexistent nest of his smart aleck familiar.

And if the 'smart aleck familiar' doesn't want to give it up, then what?

[Keltest]

And if the 'smart aleck familiar' doesn't want to give it up, then what?

Then V says "Deal with it bird, quit being so selfish. We need every advantage we can get. And you don't even have a nest to put it in."

Perhaps somewhat more tactfully than that, but you get my point.

[Porthos]

but you get my point.

Yes, yes I'm afraid I do. V should take things by force from people who earned them instead of negotiating for them and/or seeking an authority (in this case the Party Leader known as Roy) to step in on his behalf.

...

That WAS your point, yes? :smalltongue:

---

Pointing out the implications of your post in a humorous manner aside, MY point is Blackwing earned that 'bauble' by getting it in combat. He risked a life and death situation to get it. Now, sure, if he was feeling like being a good party member he should in fact give it to V. If he doesn't, especially if V tries to negotiate for it, that reflects very badly on Blackwing.

But perhaps, just perhaps, it would reflect badly on V if he just snatched it out of Blackwing's beak and said, more or less, "Thanks for giving this to me, slave. I really sure can use this."

Even if it was put a HELL of a lot more tactfully than that, the sentiment behind it is the same. :smallwink: Blackwing may be a familiar to Vaarsuvius, but he's been portrayed in the comic as someone with his own wants and desires. Perhaps, just perhaps, it would reflect badly on V should he go down this road (again).

====

PS: I said in my initial point what happens in afterwards wasn't germane because there is every chance in the world that the plot line is being set up so Blackwing willingly gives up the 'bauble' (perhaps for something else) after being given the choice to keep it.

The Secret Test of Character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretTestOfCharacter) IS one of the oldest stories in the book for a reason you know. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

Yes, yes I'm afraid I do. V should take things by force from people who earned them instead of negotiating for them and/or seeking an authority (in this case the Party Leader known as Roy) to step in on his behalf.

...

That WAS your point, yes? :smalltongue:

---

Pointing out the implications of your post in a humorous manner aside, MY point is Blackwing earned that 'bauble' by getting it in combat. He risked a life and death situation to get it. Now, sure, if he was feeling like being a good party member he should in fact give it to V. If he doesn't, especially if V tries to negotiate for it, that reflects very badly on Blackwing.

But perhaps, just perhaps, it would reflect badly on V if he just snatched it out of Blackwing's beak and said, more or less, "Thanks for giving this to me, slave. I really sure can use this."

Even if it was put a HELL of a lot more tactfully than that, the sentiment behind it is the same. :smallwink: Blackwing may be a familiar to Vaarsuvius, but he's been portrayed in the comic as someone with his own wants and desires. Perhaps, just perhaps, it would reflect badly on V should he go down this road (again).

====

PS: I said in my initial point what happens in afterwards wasn't germane because there is every chance in the world that the plot line is being set up so Blackwing willingly gives up the 'bauble' (perhaps for something else) after being given the choice to keep it.

The Secret Test of Character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretTestOfCharacter) IS one of the oldest stories in the book for a reason you know. :smallwink:

Sarcasm aside, in this case V is an authority figure. Obviously he shouldn't maim Blackwing trying to get the stone or anything, but if he has to get stern with him and remind Blackwing that V would be carrying it anyway, and that the stone does the party far more good around a caster's head than it does Blackwing while its in V's bag, it is well within his right as the wizard to do so.

[Porthos]

Sarcasm aside, in this case V is an authority figure. Obviously he shouldn't maim Blackwing trying to get the stone or anything, but if he has to get stern with him and remind Blackwing that V would be carrying it anyway, and that the stone does the party far more good than it does Blackwing while its in V's bag, it is well within his right as the wizard to do so.

And then Blackwing gives it up and expresses disapproval that he's being treated like a class feature again.

See, the point I am trying to make here is Blackwing is in my opinion something of the Jiminy Cricket for V. He's not just a bundle of class abilites to be used at V's convenience but a friend and a collegue. V may (and does) have 'command' over Blackwing, but Blackwing is still a person* with wants and desires. One of the desires that has been clear since #672 is that he not be taken for granted by V. The story couldn't be clearer on that point, IMO. It is also is examing some of the implicatios of a wizard/familiar relationship, though that isn't quite as in-your-face ATM.

* very broad definition of person being used here

That a real friendship has devloped between the two also couldn't be clearer (which, as an aside, might be why each would be willing to let the other have it), again IMO.

I'm not saying this is a very likely thing that will occur in the strip. But what I AM saying is that the seeds are there (which gets back to the original toic: Why introduce the Ioun Stone? To further devlope V's character). Whether they germinate or not, only time will tell.

[Kish]

Possibilities in descending order of likelihood:
1) The ioun stone, having served its purpose by being the punchline of the jokes it was the punchline of, is never seen again.
2) Blackwing gives or lends the ioun stone to Vaarsuvius.
3) The ioun stone shows up circling Vaarsuvius' head a few strips from now, explanation of how it got there never provided.
4) Vaarsuvius callously takes the ioun stone from Blackwing; this is part of demonstrating that s/he hasn't changed as much as s/he needs to.
[...]
4,999,999) The ioun stone turns into a Frankenstein's monster assembled from Xykon, Tarquin, and the IFCC, which is the ultimate villain of the comic.
5,000,000) Vaarsuvius grabs the ioun stone away from Blackwing because Blackwing doesn't actually have rights or possessions don't be silly it's a class feature, and the narrative treats her/him as correct for doing so.

[Keltest]

And then Blackwing gives it up and expresses disapproval that he's being treated like a class feature again.

See, the point I am trying to make here is Blackwing is in my opinion something of the Jiminy Cricket for V. He's not just a bundle of class abilites to be used at V's convenience but a friend and a collegue. V may (and does) have 'command' over Blackwing, but Blackwing is still a person* with wants and desires. One of the desires that has been clear since #672 is that he not be taken for granted by V. The story couldn't be clearer on that point, IMO. It is also is examing some of the implicatios of a wizard/familiar relationship, though that isn't quite as in-your-face ATM.

* very broad definition of person being used here

That a real friendship has devloped between the two also couldn't be clearer (which, as an aside, might be why each would be willing to let the other have it), again IMO.

I'm not saying this is a very likely thing that will occur in the strip. But what I AM saying is that the seeds are there (which gets back to the original toic: Why introduce the Ioun Stone? To further devlope V's character). Whether they germinate or not, only time will tell.

Belkar is also a person with wants and desires, and allowing him to indulge his every impulse would be quite detrimental to both the party and the world at large. V would be doing far more to treat Blackwing like an individual rather than a class feature by explaining his stance rather than either giving in without a fight or just beating the tar out of Blackwing until he gives up the stone.

To put it another way, V did almost all the work dealing with the young adult black dragon (whether or not his methods were appropriate will not be discussed!) and yet nobody had to persuade him to share "his" treasure with the rest of the party. He did not feel compelled to try and haggle some of the starmetal away from Roy, even though he clearly expressed a desire for some at the beginning of the quest. Why? Because doing so would be selfish and stupid, and the rest of the party would be fully within their rights to call V on it.


4,999,999) The ioun stone turns into a Frankenstein's monster assembled from Xykon, Tarquin, and the IFCC, which is the ultimate villain of the comic.

Hrm, what would the stats on an Antagonist Golem be?

[Porthos]

Belkar is also a person with wants and desires, and allowing him to indulge his every impulse would be quite detrimental to both the party and the world at large. V would be doing far more to treat Blackwing like an individual rather than a class feature by explaining his stance rather than either giving in without a fight or just beating the tar out of Blackwing until he gives up the stone.

To put it another way, V did almost all the work dealing with the young adult black dragon (whether or not his methods were appropriate will not be discussed!) and yet nobody had to persuade him to share "his" treasure with the rest of the party. He did not feel compelled to try and haggle some of the starmetal away from Roy, even though he clearly expressed a desire for some at the beginning of the quest. Why? Because doing so would be selfish and stupid, and the rest of the party would be fully within their rights to call V on it.

Let me try a different way of expressing my point. :smallsmile: You (or someone else up the chain of posts) wondered "why show OOTS getting the Ioun Stone at all unless was for them to use it at some point". Setting aside the point that Conservation of Detail can sometimes be overrated, I was simply tying to show a reason Rich MIGHT have included it from a narrative viewpoint that had little to nothing to do with its inherent power and more to do with how it affected the characters.

Whether or not that is something that you think would be a good plot development is rather here nor there. I was simply offering an alternative narrative use for said stone. :smallsmile: Kish's list works just as well. And I'm sure we could work out other possible uses for it if we actually bothered.

*looks again at Kish's list*

Some more plausible than others, admittedly. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Let me try a different way of expressing my point. :smallsmile: You (or someone else up the chain of posts) wondered "why show OOTS getting the Ioun Stone at all unless was for them to use it at some point". Setting aside the point that Conservation of Detail can sometimes be overrated, I was simply tying to show a reason Rich MIGHT have included it from a narrative viewpoint that had little to nothing to do with its inherent power and more to do with how it affected the characters.

Whether or not that is something that you think would be a good plot development is rather here nor there. I was simply offering an alternative narrative use for said stone. :smallsmile: Kish's list works just as well. And I'm sure we could work out other possible uses for it if we actually bothered.

*looks again at Kish's list*

Some more plausible than others, admittedly. :smalltongue:

I can imagine a variety of reasons Rich would have for putting in the Ioun stone without intending the party to make use of it, ranging from "it is an important plot device that turns out to be a spell component to seal the gates" to "We've annoyed Rich so much that he decided to really mess with us." K.I.S.S. says that it was so that it could be used for something.

[Socksy]

My internet broke last night, so have a very, very late reply post to some stuff I wanted to reply to :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smallsmile:


How do we know he'd even want to use the stone? For example, it might be one that grants a +2 Charisma bonus, which might have been useful for Laurin (depending what kind of psion she was) but wouldn't be useful for V at all.

I think you're thinking of 3.0, and I... well... actually, she might not be a 3.5 psion for all we know. I'd say she's the most likely person to be from an earlier edition, other than Haley's dad and that elderly dirt farmer. Like, out of the characters whose class and system is actually relevant to the plot. All that Wormholeing. In fact, I'd say it wouldn't even surprise me if she was a 3.0 psion, or a mishmash of the earlier, pre-3.5 psion classes. And she's a Nomad, but has been seen using Telepathy powers, so if she had a sucky CHA, she'd want to boost it.


Also, given what we know about Tarkin's team, it's likely to be cursed in some way to prevent people other than Laurin from using it.

V knows this and does not want to start using it until she's sure that it is safe to use.

Well, if it's either the CHA-booster or the CL-booster, he would have probably made it so Miron could use it too. Possibly Jacinda as well if she's a diplomacy build. Or in fact, the entire team. But it's stil a very valid point.


Okay, I don't know much about psionics, so I wasn't sure if it worked like that. Thanks for the confirmation.

*grumble grumble I hate transparency grumble*

[Lord Torath]

I think you're thinking of 3.0, and I... well... actually, she might not be a 3.5 psion for all we know. I'd say she's the most likely person to be from an earlier edition, other than Haley's dad and that elderly dirt farmer. No, she's definitely from 3.X edition. In 1st and 2nd Editions, Psionics and Magic where like oil and water. They just didn't mix, except in specific cases. Detect Magic would not detect psionics, but Detect Invisibility would detect all types of invisibility, including psionic invisibility. Dispel Magic would not affect psionics at all, and there was no psionic power that functioned like the standard Dispel Magic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No, she's definitely from 3.X edition. In 1st and 2nd Editions, Psionics and Magic where like oil and water. They just didn't mix, except in specific cases. Detect Magic would not detect psionics, but Detect Invisibility would detect all types of invisibility, including psionic invisibility. Dispel Magic would not affect psionics at all, and there was no psionic power that functioned like the standard Dispel Magic.

She has used a power not from this edition, at least, right?

[b_jonas]

I don't think the psion transparency rules matter for Varsaavius. Look, we identified the ioun stone from its color, and orange ioun stones originally give a bonus to the caster level, not to the manifester level. The transparency levels matter for whether Miron can use the stone, but she probably can, or else why would she wear it.

I have a different use for the ioun stone though. Supposing Roy wants to resurrect Durkon. The problem is that the party has difficulty finding a divine caster with high enough level. So they buy a scroll of resurrection from somewhere, and find a medium level divine priest, but the priest has to make a caster level check to be able to successfully read the spell. Varsaavius then gives him the Ioun stone to increase the chance of a successful read, and possibly even give it to him as a price for his services.

[Kish]

She has used a power not from this edition, at least, right?

Yes and no. Mainly no. The statement "Laurin has used a power from earlier editions" is neither more nor less accurate than "Girard used a psionic power."

Rich invented a ninth-level spell based on Microcosm and gave it to Girard, and Rich invented a (I have little doubt but no proof it was ninth-level) psionic power based on Wormhole and gave it to Laurin.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes and no. Mainly no. The statement "Laurin has used a power from earlier editions" is neither more nor less accurate than "Girard used a psionic power."

Rich invented a ninth-level spell based on Microcosm and gave it to Girard, and Rich invented a (I have little doubt but no proof it was ninth-level) psionic power based on Wormhole and gave it to Laurin.

Oh, okay. Not from this edition, but not directly from any other edition.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Secret Test of Character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretTestOfCharacter) IS one of the oldest stories in the book for a reason you know. :smallwink:
While it's much more likely that the ioun stone has simply been forgotten about, have you considered the possibility that the Giant set up a "secret test of character" in order to have V fail? Her character development to this point has been marked by more-than-occasional backsliding, after all.

[mouser9169]

My guess is that Mr Scruffy has caster levels no one knows about (alternately, he can retroactively be assumed to have been looking over V's shoulder when he levels up next time he disembowels something...) and Blackwing will give the Ioun stone to him at the opportune time as he did the belt of giant's strength.