Lesser Undead, LA needed?

[Carl]

Been trying to create a variant on the undead rules that evades the usual need for considerable LA on a template using it, (hence why the variant below lacks BAB/Save/SP info), just wondering if i've got anywhere near.


Lesser Undead Type

Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Features

An undead creature has the following features.
• 12-sided Hit Dice.

Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
• Immunity to poison, nonlethal damage, and disease, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
• Profane bonus equal to 1 + 1/4 HD to all saves against; all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, and death effects.
• Gains Fortification equal to 5% per HD.
• Ability drain, and ability damage to physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), cannot reduce the affected Ability Score below 1 + 1/4 HD or it’s normal value, whichever is lower.
• Level Drain cannot reduce level below 1 +1/4 HD
• Gains no bonus HP’s from it’s Constitution modifier, but gains an increase to any existing natural armor equal to it’s con modifier.
• Profane bonus equal to 1 + 1/4 HD to all Fortitude saves,
• Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
• Lesser Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

[Debihuman]

Undead do not make suitable PCs so the LA is --.

Debby

[Carl]

Well this is explicitly for PC, (for a class i'm working on as a low level class feature), use so that answer is 100% useless.

[Network]

Undead do not make suitable PCs so the LA is --.

Debby
From the SRD alone there are the ghost, the lich and the vampire, all of which are among the kind of undead that returns if destroyed. Almost all the other non-mindless undead have been made playable in Savage Species or Libris Mortis. Both books say that undead immunity is LA +2. I have no idea why you think undead aren't suitable PCs.

Features

An undead creature has the following features.
• 12-sided Hit Dice.

Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
• Immunity to poison, nonlethal damage, and disease, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
• Profane bonus equal to 1 + 1/4 HD to all saves against; all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, and death effects.
• Gains Fortification equal to 5% per HD.
• Ability drain, and ability damage to physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), cannot reduce the affected Ability Score below 1 + 1/4 HD or it’s normal value, whichever is lower.
• Level Drain cannot reduce level below 1 +1/4 HD
• Gains no bonus HP’s from it’s Constitution modifier, but gains an increase to any existing natural armor equal to it’s con modifier.
• Profane bonus equal to 1 + 1/4 HD to all Fortitude saves,
• Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
• Lesser Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Still at least LA +1 for me. While the lesser undead doesn't have outright immunity for a lot of things, it is still much more resistant to them than living beings are. Given their bonus to Fortitude saves and their Constitution score, they can actually be more resistant than undead creatures against certain attacks ; the former is kind of redundant with the latter, which also allows some shenanigans that regular undead usually do not have access to. I'm of the opinion you could remove both.

[Carl]

Still at least LA +1 for me. While the lesser undead doesn't have outright immunity for a lot of things, it is still much more resistant to them than living beings are. Given their bonus to Fortitude saves and their Constitution score, they can actually be more resistant than undead creatures against certain attacks ; the former is kind of redundant with the latter, which also allows some shenanigans that regular undead usually do not have access to. I'm of the opinion you could remove both.

Profane bonus's are non-stacking, should have added a note about that. How would that change your thinking? Also isn't the fixed D12 HD with no con bonus's quite a big negative, i mean sure they get some AC out of it, but at anything but minimal con scores that's still a lot of lost HP's.

[Network]

Profane bonus's are non-stacking, should have added a note about that. How would that change your thinking? Also isn't the fixed D12 HD with no con bonus's quite a big negative, i mean sure they get some AC out of it, but at anything but minimal con scores that's still a lot of lost HP's.
Undead creatures are not immune to all effects requiring a Fortitude save and the effects they aren't immune to are their weak points (I will take Disintegrate as an example, even though it is of relatively high level). For regular undead, Fortitude is a dump save because their base score is low and they can't use their Constitution score to increase it. For lesser undead, Fortitude is a high save because they receive a bonus to it that scales with level, plus a good Fortitude save from their class levels, plus a Constitution score. They may not receive hit points from it (fortunately), but the fact that they apply it to their armor class compensates for that.

Of all the specific effects against which they receive a profane bonus, only death effects are going to require a Fortitude save. All reasonably optimized characters become virtually immune to them by level 7 anyway, so overlapping bonuses are not really a factor.

[Debihuman]

While there is LA for some undead, generally that doesn't make for good PCs. Can it be done? Sure. Evil campaigns generally end in a bloodbath of backstabbing. Are they fun? In the short term.

How are you adjudicating fortification? This seems a lot more powerful than what the warforged get. You say that they NA based on HD but you don't say how much.

Since the traits do not mention it, do these have a Constitution score?

What's with all the weird 1 + 1/4 HD bonuses? Not a fan of it. Bonuses should be at first level and every four levels after that. Less bookkeeping. Fractions aren't useful since you round down (and I'd diss these if you round up as that's just blatantly unfair to the other PCs)

Are these destroyed at 0 hit points? It's not mentioned. If not, I'm not sure these should be considered "lesser" undead as that makes them more powerful than standard undead.

Debby

[bekeleven]

(and I'd diss these if you round up as that's just blatantly unfair to the other PCs)

I've seen you say this before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15896554&postcount=12), and I still don't understand how, for instance, 1/4 levels (rounded up) is more unfair than 1 + 1/4 levels (rounded down). 75% of the time it's the same, and the rest it's worse.

Since he's making up his own progression and asking at what LA it's balanced, how can it be less "fair" just because the progression scales on 4+1s instead of 4s? I mean, even if the scale were 1/2 levels (rounded down), that wouldn't be "unfair." It would at most be deserving of a higher level adjustment. Because that's what he's asking. He's presenting stats and asking what level adjustment would be appropriate. If the stats were +10 to all saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) that would require a high LA, not be "unfair." Certainly not less unfair than +1/50 levels (rounded up).

It might not be the math that someone playing 3.5 traditionally expects... which is why it says "rounded up." because it's telling you not to round down like normal.

Back on topic, I like keeping undead PCs on the table because without them we wouldn't have had Takai Shingi, Twice Reborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11872314&postcount=227).

[Debihuman]

Because RAW says that you always round down. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#roundingFractions
Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.

When you say round up without any other directions, it means everything is rounded up--even fractions that are less than one-half or smaller. If you mean round up fractions that are one-half and higher only, you have to state that. This is why I don't like it when people say to "round up" fractions. It's too easy to exploit. You don't get the benefit 25% more, you gain it 75% more unless stated otherwise.

Any time you use house rules and progressions that are non-standard you make it more difficult to assess. Why should I assume it's a house rule and not just a mistake? How am I supposed to know the difference?

As an aside: I've noticed that very few builds from Iron Chef Optimization are fully statted out so there's no point in going there. Most Undead make better NPCs than PCs. A PC has to die and somehow gain the ability to become an Undead creature, usually through gaining a Template such as the Necropolitan from Libris Mortis or the Vampire Template. Personally, I think ALL Undead creatures should be Templates. A DM has to do a lot of calculations when an Undead creature is killed and then resurrected. What the heck was it prior to becoming Undead? Ugh.

Also, Paragon creatures are fun to make but ridiculously unbalanced. See Fluffy the Doomkitty in my homebrew (see My creations listed below)

Debby

[Silva Stormrage]

While there is LA for some undead, generally that doesn't make for good PCs. Can it be done? Sure. Evil campaigns generally end in a bloodbath of backstabbing. Are they fun? In the short term.


Don't want to derail this thread but… undead aren't always evil. Good liches exist, ghosts have no alignment restrictions and you could play a necropoltian healer if you wanted to…


For the template it seems decent. The thing to watch out for though for undead is the creation in a desecrated area trick. A fell animated desecrated altar gives +6 hp/hd. That is effectively 22 con. For a wizard is is effectively +10 HP/HD and he doesn't need con because of the automatic d12's.

[Hanuman]

http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/necropolitan.shtml

Necropolitan is the undead PC class.

I would argue that depending on the campaign even the campiest of undead can make great memorable and entertaining PC classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2qFmLTUkA

[atemu1234]

Maybe a lesser vampire template?

I'm curious how that would work.

Maybe: Only racial hit dice turn to D12s
No ability adjustment
Gain a bite attack (M: 1d4), not a slam attack, do not gain blood drain but must drink blood
Sunlight Blindness
What would this be in terms of LA, I wonder? It would increase a creature with RHD power by a lot, but other creatures only gain a bite attack.

[Carl]

While there is LA for some undead, generally that doesn't make for good PCs. Can it be done? Sure. Evil campaigns generally end in a bloodbath of backstabbing. Are they fun? In the short term.

How are you adjudicating fortification? This seems a lot more powerful than what the warforged get. You say that they NA based on HD but you don't say how much.

Since the traits do not mention it, do these have a Constitution score?

What's with all the weird 1 + 1/4 HD bonuses? Not a fan of it. Bonuses should be at first level and every four levels after that. Less bookkeeping. Fractions aren't useful since you round down (and I'd diss these if you round up as that's just blatantly unfair to the other PCs)

Are these destroyed at 0 hit points? It's not mentioned. If not, I'm not sure these should be considered "lesser" undead as that makes them more powerful than standard undead.

Debby

Except where mentioned it's a normal living creature. Lesser Undead isn't a subtype of undead, it's an alternate base type. That should answer about half the questions.

Like i said this is aimed at a class which by the nature of it's background requires being undead to enter, rather than insisting they wait till near epics to become a Lich or go find a friendly vampire or whatever i'm going to work the undead into the 1st level of the class. It's easily justifiable lore wise that they're a different type of undead.

The amount of AC is listed, try re-reading it ;).

The 1 + 1/4 is to ensure there's a bonus from level 1, but to avoid it going too extreme, it restricts the bonus to +5 at 20th which is where it's intended to stop. Since the variance on a D20 is upto 20 points and you ideally want to avoid the extreme ends, then assuming a starting point around a mid point +/-5 makes a good rule of thumb for maximum variation.

@Network & Silvastormrage: My main concern with the HP's vs AC thing is that outside of very extreme abuse of ability modifiers, (which the DM should hopefully stomp on), the AC bonus probably isn't going to be as valuable as the HP's bearing in mind HD totals greater than ECL/CR aren't likely to be possible outside of certain template abuse. Having no HP's from Con is one thing when you might have several times as many HD as your CR rating or are very difficult to permanently kill, (like Vampires and Lich's), but it's a huge negative when you have limited HD and can be permanently killed. What about making it so Con modifier is halved for HP calculation's. That achieves the general aim of making Con less of a must have stat for them whilst keeping it from being too negative.

Also since it would be granted as a class feature i can word against stuff like desecrate.

[Jammyamerica]

Maybe a lesser vampire template?

I'm curious how that would work.

Maybe: Only racial hit dice turn to D12s
No ability adjustment
Gain a bite attack (M: 1d4), not a slam attack, do not gain blood drain but must drink blood
Sunlight Blindness
What would this be in terms of LA, I wonder? It would increase a creature with RHD power by a lot, but other creatures only gain a bite attack.

Vooooo scary :(