Damaging Skills/Skills in Combat

[Kevingway]

In discovering Iaijutsu Focus, I've become curious: how many skills have in-combat applications? Or, let me go a bit further.

I know that Concentration (and, by extension via Underspell, Perform) can be utilized in the Diamond Mind maneuvers from Tome of Battle. Use Magic/Psionic Device is an obvious one. Jump for charger builds, because why not? Tumble, etc.

But if I were to center an entire build around these, using nothing but the Expert NPC class, let's say, how could I manage it? I'd like to avoid UMD and focus on the others, if possible.

(Also, Perform (Weapon Drill) is amazing with the above trick I mentioned with Undersong & Diamond Mind!)

Edit: Let's not forget Skill Tricks, but those can be quite unreliable in combat due to the once-per-encounter rule. I want to know reliable, unlimited-use methods, if possible.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Intimidate.

Replace Expert with Factotum from Dungeonscape and you'll have a viable character.

For a Diamond Mind saves with Undersong build, I'd recommend using the Idiot Crusader trick and going something like Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 2/ Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Pious Templar 1/ Master of Nine 1, and probably finish with Suel Arcanamach and JPM. Get a Ring of Evasion and put all three Diamond Mind save maneuvers on Crusader, and get Extra Granted Maneuver. Make sure your number of Crusader maneuvers known is no more than your number of Crusader maneuvers granted, so you'll always have all of them refreshed and ready to use every round. Possibly even include White Raven Tactics so you can use it on yourself every round, including on each round you gain from it, so you'll be able to take an unlimited number of turns in a single round.

[TeslaJr]

IIRC, Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal spellcasting with a feat from Complete Scoundrel (not sure if it can be done without), and I think Bluff can be used to make an opponent flat-footed.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rules for using Sleight of Hand to cast unnoticed are in RoS. There's also skill tricks for that in CS.
Jump is used with a lot of Tiger Claw maneuvers. Handle Animal's use in combat is also pretty obvious.
Hide/Move Silently can be used in combat, especially with HiPS.
Most Knowledge skills can be used with Knowledge Devotion. Even without the feat knowing what you're fighting can be helpful.

[Dread_Head]

Sleight of hand to steal one unattended object is DC20. To do it as a free action is effectively DC40. When you can hit that steal all of your opponents unattended (not held) items, eg. Spell component pouch, holy symbol, spare weapons, quivers, potions, wands etc.

[Kevingway]

Sleight of hand to steal one unattended object is DC20. To do it as a free action is effectively DC40. When you can hit that steal all of your opponents unattended (not held) items, eg. Spell component pouch, holy symbol, spare weapons, quivers, potions, wands etc.

This. This is interesting. Thank you. From what source are you determining the DC for stealing in this way from a creature, though?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sleight of hand to steal one unattended object is DC20. To do it as a free action is effectively DC40. When you can hit that steal all of your opponents unattended (not held) items, eg. Spell component pouch, holy symbol, spare weapons, quivers, potions, wands etc.

The exact wording is "lift a small object from a person". Lifting a sheated weapon is DC 50, as a standard action. What exactly counts as a small object is never really defined though. Holy Symbols or potions? Certainly. Spell component pouch, spare weapons, quivers? Probably not.
You also can't steal things that are in a Bag of Holding, Handy Haversack or similar storage item.

That's not to say that Sleight of Hand isn't useful, but it's not the instant "steal everything except weapon and armor" move that your description makes it sound like.

[Dread_Head]

This. This is interesting. Thank you. From what source are you determining the DC for stealing in this way from a creature, though?
The Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) skill description.

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it.

However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.


The exact wording is "lift a small object from a person". Lifting a sheated weapon is DC 50, as a standard action. What exactly counts as a small object is never really defined though. Holy Symbols or potions? Certainly. Spell component pouch, spare weapons, quivers? Probably not.
You also can't steal things that are in a Bag of Holding, Handy Haversack or similar storage item.

That's not to say that Sleight of Hand isn't useful, but it's not the instant "steal everything except weapon and armor" move that your description makes it sound like.

Oh, I didn't know lifting a sheathed weapon had a separate DC. I'd say a spell component pouch counts as a small object, and stealing one of them or a divine casters holy symbol really messes with a caster.

Edit: the use of this skill depends a lot on DM judgement on what counts as a small item and how many free actions you can take to steal each turn.

[Chronos]

Right, with a permissive DM, all you need is a +20 on your check, because you can just keep on trying (effectively, taking 20 the hard way). But you should only expect this trick to work once before it's houseruled, because most DMs dislike nonmagical cheese even more than they dislike magical cheese.

[sideswipe]

auto hypnosis, it can have an effect in battle. though usually only if things go wrong. you can use auto hypnosis to resist poisons, stabilise yourself, take actions at 0hp without dropping to -1, resisting fear effects and a couple other things.

tumble is probably the best combat skill.

jump is important for an ubercharger

the skills spot and listen are always useful.

[Vaz]

A relevant knowledge check in conjunction with Knowledge Devotion increases your strength.

If you go Ethereal or similarly go into solid objects, and don't have a means to pinpoint targets, 5 ranks lets you know which way is north, so you don't get disoriented. However facing isn't a thing in 3.5 so less of a problem.

Balance has 5 ranks to prevent automatic lose situations such as Grease.

Dc 40 Tumble in conjunction with scout gets skirmish damage onto your attacks when you take a 5ft step (dc 40 lets you move 10ft on a 5ft step). Combine with the Evasive Reflexes. Without a level of monk, even UMD will not allow you to use training dummy of the master for that.

Diamond mind has concentration as a skill for its maneuvres.

Profession executioner is possible with DM allowance to make a DC18 check to autokill any grappled character. However the wording is a bit screwy and is ill advised if you have have a grappler in the party.

[Jormengand]

Autohypnosis, concentration, SoH, Bluff, Intimidate, UMD, UPD, Iajitsu focus, spellcraft, psicraft, truespeak, knowledge, tumble, balance, climb, in PF fly, hide, move silently, spot, listen...

[Curmudgeon]

Sleight of hand to steal one unattended object is DC20. To do it as a free action is effectively DC40. When you can hit that steal all of your opponents unattended (not held) items, eg. Spell component pouch, holy symbol, spare weapons, quivers, potions, wands etc.
Items on a person's body are attended (i.e., they go with the person). And making the Sleight of Hand check as a free action doesn't change the fact that it provokes AoOs, so if they Spot the attempt they get to attack you.

[Kevingway]

Profession executioner is possible with DM allowance to make a DC18 check to autokill any grappled character. However the wording is a bit screwy and is ill advised if you have have a grappler in the party.

Haven't heard of this before, but I like the sound of it. Where's it from?

[VoxRationis]

There's a feat or something which allows you to suddenly attack with a successfully hidden (as per the Sleight of Hand rules) weapon, denying the target their Dex bonus to AC. Complete Warrior, maybe Adventurer.

[Vaz]

Book of Vile Darkness. There are a few things against it, namely that if you are in melee it states the Executioners Axe are treated as Greataxes, and there is no mention of what action it takes (and profession normally represents a week).

I personally allow it in my games, due to the inability to grapple and execute at the same time (light weapons in a grapple only, greataxes aren't) and the ease of which one can escape a grapple. If the party can optimize enough to do that, then i'll throw them a bone and give them some killable in that manner - BBEG's they will need to drop a few resources on until that becomes an option.

BoVD is more like a DM's resource, mostly, so it was unlikely not well visaged for PC's hence some of the incongruencies, but put some rules legit options for a character to instagib.

It works well with the sacrifice rules.

[Kevingway]

I remember there being a Book of Vile Darkness 3.5 conversion in one of the Dragon Magazine issues. Can anybody remember what issue that was?

[Chronos]

Curmudgeon, the SoH DC for an unattended object is only 10. For something on someone's person, it's 20. The substance of what Dread_head said is correct, even though he incorrectly said "unattended".

[Irk]

Concentration is also really important for builds that rely on Psionic Focus, which, at DC 20, is not always assured at lower levels unless some effort is put towards it. However, if that DC can be regularly achieved in combat it can be quite powerful.

[Vhaidara]

Book of Vile Darkness. There are a few things against it, namely that if you are in melee it states the Executioners Axe are treated as Greataxes, and there is no mention of what action it takes (and profession normally represents a week).

Actually, does this qualify as a RAW dysfunction? It takes 1 week for a professional executioner to execute someone?

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, the SoH DC for an unattended object is only 10. For something on someone's person, it's 20. The substance of what Dread_head said is correct, even though he incorrectly said "unattended".
Well, almost. The difficulty for grabbing a spare weapon is much higher (DC 70 to do so as a free action). Also, everything I said was correct as well. You really have to hope the enemy has a poor Spot skill, and lacks Combat Reflexes.

[Kevingway]

Actually, does this qualify as a RAW dysfunction? It takes 1 week for a professional executioner to execute someone?

The Profession skill "normally" takes something like a week to earn a little bit of money, but this is a special case scenario, I feel, that overwrites the general use of Profession skills as a whole. If someone were to want to use this skill to earn money in a week, it would probably be as torturing prisoners instead of executing a single person, which is a specific use separate from money making, as I take it.

[Irk]

Epic level skill uses can be helpful.
Use Rope can do Animate Rope for entangling in combat
Bluff and Diplomacy can swing the tide of battle by altering an opponents ideas or instilling suggestions
Appraise is Detect Magic, useful for identifying Buffs
Sleight of Hand can move opponents into AoEs
Autohypnosis can help with poisons, grant extra HP, allow you to with negative HP, get a 2nd save against mind-affecting effects, and grant damage reduction
Sense Motive detects thoughts
Heal can be amazing, at level 20, if you make a DC 100 heal check, you can heal up to 3*level*7(days) HP to six allies, which would come out to 420 HP to 6 allies, or essentially your entire party. Unfortunately, it won;t remove status effects like heal, but as a skill check, it's quite good, if you can get it at lower levels.

[Vaz]

Not really. That profession check is in accordance with making money off it.


Once the victim is secure, the executioner can attempt the chosen method of execution. The executioner makes a Profession (executioner) check against the DC given for the device on Table 3–2. If the check is successful, the condemned is slain according to the nature of the device. If the executioner fails, the execution is botched, and the executioner can make another check the following round.

And then


Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work

Not applicable - Considering that rounds take place only in combat (or so I've read), and that there's specific provision for such when used in "melee" (deal damage as per Greataxe or Greatsword), unless you're getting paid to kill someone, it is an out of combat only ability. It is a specific use of the skill that occurs when you use the item. If a skill is considered Extraordinary, then it's a Standard Action, however.

[Vhaidara]

The Profession skill "normally" takes something like a week to earn a little bit of money, but this is a special case scenario, I feel, that overwrites the general use of Profession skills as a whole. If someone were to want to use this skill to earn money in a week, it would probably be as torturing prisoners instead of executing a single person, which is a specific use separate from money making, as I take it.

Ah, but that's RAI. There is no specific to trump general here, so, by RAW, it takes 1 week. And this isn't using it to make money, the check is specifically to execute a single helpless target.

Remember, we're looking at RAW dysfunctions. Curmudgeon, you're generally accepted as the local expert on RAW. Your opinion?

[Curmudgeon]

Remember, we're looking at RAW dysfunctions. Curmudgeon, you're generally accepted as the local expert on RAW. Your opinion?
No, there's no RAW dysfunction; the confusion is because you're mixing rules from different versions of the game, and that's only supposed to happen after the individual DM makes any minor adjustments to the older content to head off such problems (3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, page 4). Book of Vile Darkness is a 3.0 source, so its references to Profession are to the skill in the 3.0 Player's Handbook on page 72. That 3.0 skill has no Action section which restricts the way the skill can be applied.

[Vhaidara]

I was unaware of the old version of Profession. I started during 3.5. Thank you for enlightening me.

[Kevingway]

Alright, let's quote the whole thing. Emphasis mine:


Check: You can practice your trade and
make a decent living, earning about half your
Profession check result in gold pieces per
week of dedicated work. You know how to
use the tools of your trade, how to perform
the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers,
and how to handle common problems. For example, a
sailor knows how to tie several basic knots, how to
tend and repair sails, and how to stand a deck
watch at sea. The DM sets DCs for specialized
tasks.
Action: Not applicable. A single check
generally represents a week of work.
Try Again: Varies. An attempt to use a
Profession skill to earn an income cannot be
retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your
check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week
to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt
to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.

What I'm highlighting is to show a few things that are in line with what Profession (Executioner) represents. Profession (Executioner) falls under the rule of "specific/specialized task," which is sanctioned by this definition of the Profession skill (in other words, this skill DOES exist as something other than earning weekly wages).

Now, the action clause is a problem, but let's look at the full text for Profession (Executioner):


Once the victim is secure, the executioner can attempt
the chosen method of execution. The executioner makes a
Profession (executioner) check against the DC given for the
device on Table 3–2. If the check is successful, the condemned
is slain according to the nature of the device. If the
executioner fails, the execution is botched, and the executioner
can make another check the following round.
Botched attempts deal the damage noted for the device, so
the condemned may be killed even if the executioner
botches the attempt. Prideful executioners—which
includes most of them—take it as a personal point of dishonor
if they kill the condemned on a botched execution.


When specially sharpened and held
with the proper technique, a greataxe (or a greatsword) can
serve the executioner as the instrument of execution. The
condemned is restrained, with the neck vulnerable to the
strike readied by the executioner. On a successful Profession
(executioner) check, the condemned dies instantly. If
the executioner fails the attempt, the headsman’s axe delivers
a coup de grace against the condemned (automatic critical
hit, and the condemned must succeed on a Fortitude
save or die). The coup de grace simply completes the executioner’s
task more messily.

Combining the coup de grace section with the failed execution being able to be retried on the next round, along with the "instantly" clause, we can come to three possible conclusions:

1. If you succeed, it's a free action to perform this check (because he dies "instantly"). Immediate actions and swift actions did not exist back then.

2. Whether you succeed or fail, it's a full-round action because of the retry text and the fact that coup de graces are full-round actions. This seems much more likely, as I can't imagine success or failure in any circumstance resulting in an entirely different action type used.

3. You must ready an action to perform the check, which is a standard action by the rules of action readying. In order to ready actions, however, they must be Standard, Move, or Free actions, which means that the execution itself may be a free action, but the action it takes to ready it becomes standard.

Is this RAI? Perhaps slightly. But compare the bold texts here and keep things together... let's not only quote little bits and hash over it until someone on page 3 decides to bring it all in perspective. Sorry if I seem arrogant.


No, there's no RAW dysfunction; the confusion is because you're mixing rules from different versions of the game, and that's only supposed to happen after the individual DM makes any minor adjustments to the older content to head off such problems (3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, page 4). Book of Vile Darkness is a 3.0 source, so its references to Profession are to the skill in the 3.0 Player's Handbook on page 72. That 3.0 skill has no Action section which restricts the way the skill can be applied.

That brings me back to my earlier question: can anybody figure out what issue of Dragon Magazine had the Vile Darkness errata?

[Chronos]

Quoth Curmudgeon:

Also, everything I said was correct as well. You really have to hope the enemy has a poor Spot skill, and lacks Combat Reflexes.
Or just be willing to soak up the attacks of opportunity, or wait until your enemy has used up their attack(s) of opportunity, or do it while they're flatfooted, or make a relatively easy (DC 15) concentration check to use Sleight of Hand on the defensive so it doesn't provoke. It's not particularly hard to meet at least one of those conditions.

What really shuts this down is the DM setting "reasonable limits" on the number of free actions per round. Just how many constitute a "reasonable limit" is never stated, but it's probably somewhere short of 20 actions per item times however many items you want to steal.

[Curmudgeon]

That brings me back to my earlier question: can anybody figure out what issue of Dragon Magazine had the Vile Darkness errata?
Are you sure such a thing exists? DragonDex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/articles-subject.html) doesn't show any references to "Vile Darkness". In fact, the only article with "Vile" in the name is "Salammbo: The Eaters of Vile Things".

[Kevingway]

Are you sure such a thing exists? DragonDex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/articles-subject.html) doesn't show any references to "Vile Darkness". In fact, the only article with "Vile" in the name is "Salammbo: The Eaters of Vile Things".

I can almost guarantee that it does exist. It's about as obscure as the Oriental Adventures one, though I think people know that one a little bit more. I remember thumbing through it, but I still don't know which one it's in.

[Vaz]

Nope. It doesn't exist. It was a fan one.

[Kevingway]

Hm.

Well, at any rate, where's the rule that talks about taking an unsheathed weapon with Sleight of Hand? I'm not finding that specific DC anywhere, and I've looked through over half of the books that I own. Still searching, though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hm.

Well, at any rate, where's the rule that talks about taking an unsheathed weapon with Sleight of Hand? I'm not finding that specific DC anywhere, and I've looked through over half of the books that I own. Still searching, though.

Stealing an unsheated weapon is a disarm move, not SoH.

[VoxRationis]

I think Complete Warrior introduced Perform (weapon drill), which had some combat uses.

[Chronos]

Perform (Weapon Drill) can't do anything you can't do with other Perform skills. In fact, it can do less, since it specifically rules out Bardic Music. The big advantage of it is that it gets bonuses from your BAB and from a variety of combat feats, so for anything that you can use it for, you can get some pretty impressive numbers.

[Vhaidara]

Perform (Weapon Drill) can't do anything you can't do with other Perform skills. In fact, it can do less, since it specifically rules out Bardic Music. The big advantage of it is that it gets bonuses from your BAB and from a variety of combat feats, so for anything that you can use it for, you can get some pretty impressive numbers.

Well I think it was already mentioned, but you can be a bardblade and combine Undersong (Perform check replaces Concentration check) with Diamond Mind maneuvers like Insightful Strike (Concentration check for damage)

[Chronos]

Right, but that's something that you could in principle do with any sort of Perform. Weapon Drill doesn't make that possible, it just makes it better (because the check is higher).