Need help making a Houndsmaster

[Enochi]

I am trying to work on a character with a bunch of Riding dogs and Guard dogs that s/he uses effectively.

Campaign Setting will be Forgotten Realms Restrictions are Core Pathfinder Rule books. Can be Any Class or Race out of that though. Idea though is to be able to use as many dogs as possible and have the focus be on the dogs.

I know this will be difficult to keep the dogs alive when people start flinging fireballs around but lets see where it goes.

If you have a GREAT idea that requires a non-core feat or something feel free to post it as I might be able to talk the DM into it on a case by case basis. (Man am I going to try hard to get the War-Beast temple for certain)

[Yanisa]

The easy way: Beastmaster (Ranger) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/beastmaster), with the problem that the more dogs, the weaker they are. Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) can fix it a bit. There is also a noncore Cavalier Huntsmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster).

There is also Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) to gain a companion. It is a noncore feat though.
And the older trick of Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) -> Sylvan bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sylvan). Which is questionable due Sylvan being an archetype bloodline, and the fact the animal companion tcounts both as arcana and power, whereas the feat only gives powers. Ask your DM first.

It's a start, but as you can see from the Beastmaster, because you divide your effective character level between the dogs, your dogs will quickly lag behind (at level 20, 2 equal dogs both be stuck at level 14). But it can work around level 5 range, where you can have 3-4 dogs with an effective level of 5, thank to Boon Companion.

[Sayt]

S0unds like you want the Huntsmaster Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster) archetype, and the Huntsmaster feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/huntmaster-human).

Grab a trip weapon and have your doggies take a third point of int to be able to take Tandem Trip, get Gang Up as your Tactician feat.

You probably want to keep your pack to two dogs, which will be EDL 15 each at 20.

If you're playing this in E6, you can end up with six dogs at EDL 6, which is quite silly (Each 1 HD+4 for Boon Companion for each doggie, +1 Huntsmaster)

[Yanisa]

S0unds like you want the Huntsmaster Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster) archetype, and the Huntsmaster feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/huntmaster-human).

Grab a trip weapon and have your doggies take a third point of int to be able to take Tandem Trip, get Gang Up as your Tactician feat.

You probably want to keep your pack to two dogs, which will be EDL 15 each at 20.

If you're playing this in E6, you can end up with six dogs at EDL 6, which is quite silly (Each 1 HD+4 for Boon Companion for each doggie, +1 Huntsmaster)

The Huntsmaster feats only gives 1 effective companion level total, not per animal companion.

Otherwise we could use Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) and call it a day.

Edit: Speaking about Horsemaster...

Cavalier (no archetype) + Horse Master = One Dog at full strength (Just don't take more then 4 levels Cavalier, because thats a waste)
Druid + Boon Companion = Second Dog at full strength
Animal Ally + Boon Companion = Third Dog at full strength
Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) + Boon Companion = Fourth Dog at full strength.

There are some minor problems (the fact you need to be small, the fact you don't an animal companion until 4th level, eldritch heritage sylvan) but it works... I guess.

[Enochi]

Hmm some interesting and great suggestions. Leaning a bit to heavy on outside core rulebook though.

Big problem is no way I could swing the Cavalier class and I highly doubt I could get the Beast master Archetype either.

But please this is a great start! I believe I can get the Huntsmaster feat. And if end up with an Animal Companion the Boon Companion is Extraordinarily useful.

Thank you for your help.

[Yanisa]

Hmm some interesting and great suggestions. Leaning a bit to heavy on outside core rulebook though.

Big problem is no way I could swing the Cavalier class and I highly doubt I could get the Beast master Archetype either.

But please this is a great start! I believe I can get the Huntsmaster feat. And if end up with an Animal Companion the Boon Companion is Extraordinarily useful.

Thank you for your help.

Beastmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/beastmaster) is Advance Players Guide, it barely gets more core than that.

In fact everything besides Animal Ally and The Cavalier archtype everything I named in my first post is core only, unless your DM as a different opinions of what core only is (I assume: all hardcover books, the Ultimates, the Advances, the core rule book, the bestiaries, the gamemasters guide).

[Enochi]

Beastmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/beastmaster) is Advance Players Guide, it barely gets more core than that.

In fact everything besides Animal Ally and The Cavalier archtype everything I named in my first post is core only, unless your DM as a different opinions of what core only is (I assume: all hardcover books, the Ultimates, the Advances, the core rule book, the bestiaries, the gamemasters guide).

Yeah he is a bit of a hard-ass about that. Core for him means Player's Handbook and Bestiary. Its quite annoying but when he his the only game in town. You suck it up an bear it.

[Yanisa]

Yeah he is a bit of a hard-ass about that. Core for him means Player's Handbook and Bestiary. Its quite annoying but when he his the only game in town. You suck it up an bear it.

It's annoying that pathfinder called its PHB, The Core Rulebook, but that it's different from the Core Books. I saw a plural, so I assume you at least at more then one book to build from (Bestiaries don't do a lot, unless you can play as monsters, but I don't think so.)

I don't think multiple animal companion works. The best cases are either restricted to low level (E6) or dubious about the rule builds (like the 4 cavalier/16 druid I made)

If this is a straight up Core Rulebook only campaign, then I got nothing. Your best option is some Ranger/Druid/Cleric multi class, but without Boon Companion (also not CRB only) multiple classes that give animal companion stack rather then giving multiple companions and even if your DM allows multiple, they are so weak they are instantly wiped off any combat.

1 Druid/4 Cleric (Animal Domain)/4 Ranger gives us 3 animal companion at first level.

Yes you are level 9, you're dogs are level 1. Best I got with the core rulebooks.
Huntmaster the feat would make one dog level 2. Boon Companion would make the dogs 4, 4 and 5. Which is decent, but still a step behind. And leveling beyond this point is horrible, for 3 three levels you gain, you animal gain 1 level.

Another option is straight druid. Use Nature's Ally to summon dogs, wildshape into a dog, animal companion as dog. Even that looses its beef after a while, but it's more focused. And when the dog options start to fail, you are still a druid and go a different route easily, perhaps wolves.



P.S. I also make a lot of mistakes here, man I am not waking up today. Rangers get animal -3 level, bluh. I often houserule that one out, due the sad puppy-dog eyes of new rangers loosing their first animal companion because its at level 1 in a group of level 4 characters. One fireball tends to murder them animal companion for good.

[Enochi]

An idea I am tinkering around with is to see if I could the Leadership feat...but apply it to my dogs instead of Humanoid followers.

[Enochi]

Also quick question is their a deity associated with Hounds or Dogs?

[Yanisa]

Well leadership is typical for NPC with class levels, not really animals. And even if allowed to recruit a dog, it would advance trough hit dice rather then like animal companions do, thus not gaining many new abilities. I am not sure how far your DM will bend rules rather then allow the Animal Ally feat.
You can also try to recruit a Blink Dog (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/blink-dog), bonus points if he has druid/ranger levels and its own dog companion. :smalltongue:

As for gods, I am not well versed with them but I noticed that Cayden Cailean (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cayden_Cailean) favorite animal is Hound. Erastil (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Erastil) is also a good pick, he is a god of both hunting and farming, two places where dogs are often used, although his favorite animal is the Stag. Also unlike Cayden, he has the animal domain.
There might be more specific gods, pathfinder has a lot (43 gods with the animal domain (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Category:Animal_domain_deities)), but most of those are far outside the CRB.

[Sayt]

Oh, I must have misread the feat and thought it said you count the animal's EDL as one higher, whoopsie.

[Enochi]

What I am hoping is though I probably won't be able to give my dogs class levels(Though I might argue for barbarian levels) I might talk him into letting me put templates on them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If it hasn't been pointed out, Aasimar gets the following Oracle favored class option: "Add +½ to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation."

And the Nature mystery has the following revelation:

Bonded Mount (Su): You gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal mount. The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium oracle can select a camel or a horse. A Small oracle can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if she is at least 4th level. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence score of at least 6.

Not sure if any other racial favored class options let you break the normal caps for animal companion HD, but that's the one I do know.

Of course, you could just "cheat" and do a summoner build with dog-like eidolon and dog-summoning. In any case, I think 4 levels of Cavalier + Horse Master feat combined w/ [any other class that also gives animal companion] + Boon Companion (to make up for the 4 levels advancement cavalier set you back) is the best way to go.

[grarrrg]

Cavalier (no archetype) + Horse Master = One Dog at full strength (Just don't take more then 4 levels Cavalier, because thats a waste)
Druid + Boon Companion = Second Dog at full strength
Animal Ally + Boon Companion = Third Dog at full strength
Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) + Boon Companion = Fourth Dog at full strength.

Animal Ally may not work for this:
"Prerequisites: ...must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion."
I suppose you could do Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) for 5 levels. It still gets Expert Trainer at 4th, but doesn't get the Mount until 5th, so at 4th you could Retrain something into Animal Ally.
And it goes on to say how it stacks if you get more Druid levels, so it cannot give you +1 Companions (unless you have a Pack Lord type archetype).

Then again, Animal Ally might be perfect for this:
"If you later gain an animal companion through another source...the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources."
I'm pretty certain the RAI was "Your NON-'druid' levels count as -3, add them to your 'druid' level".
But RAW it looks like you get DOUBLE progression (minus 7: Animal Ally takes -3, and you need 4 non-'druid' to take the feat).
Combine THIS with a 'Pack Lord' type, and you may be in business.


There's also the issue of companion stacking (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn).
It's worded pretty poorly, but here's the gist:
If you pick "dog" and "dog", then you get _one_ Dog stacking the levels from both.
If you pick "dog" and "horse", then you get _two_ companions, each using whichever levels from applicable class.
The quick way around this is a 'Pack Lord' type, where you can explicitly get multi-companions.



Lastly, Boon Companion may-or-may not work with 'Pack Lord' types, as it would boost your 'total' Druid level past your HD.
But it is poorly worded (mainly due to being before Pack Lord existed), and Paizo has never made a ruling on it.


Not sure if any other racial favored class options let you break the normal caps for animal companion HD, but that's the one I do know.
The only thing that explicitly can not break the Cap is Boon Companion.
This is mainly due to how most everything else has a level penalty of some sort, so it couldn't break the cap if it wanted.
Any race with the "+1/2 to Revelation" can break the cap", the only other way was the Huntmaster Feat, which only gives a +1.

[Yanisa]

Animal Ally may not work for this:
"Prerequisites: ...must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion."
I suppose you could do Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) for 5 levels. It still gets Expert Trainer at 4th, but doesn't get the Mount until 5th, so at 4th you could Retrain something into Animal Ally.
I counter with more poorly worded logic.
Animal Ally states you cannot have an Animal Companion, or Mount that advanced like one. It does not state you cannot have the Class Feature. Not having an animal companion up to level four would technically work...


And it goes on to say how it stacks if you get more Druid levels, so it cannot give you +1 Companions (unless you have a Pack Lord type archetype).
There's also the issue of companion stacking (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn).
It's worded pretty poorly, but here's the gist:
If you pick "dog" and "dog", then you get _one_ Dog stacking the levels from both.
If you pick "dog" and "horse", then you get _two_ companions, each using whichever levels from applicable class.
The quick way around this is a 'Pack Lord' type, where you can explicitly get multi-companions.
So we take a Wolf (Animal Ally), Dog (Mount), Goblin Dog (Druid) and errrm... A cat disguised as a dog :smallconfused: (Sylvan)... and sneak past that little issue.

I know, I abusive a lot of language, and its bending the rules till the point you can almost hear them snap. It requires a DM really in on the idea, and even then your entire build hinges on the dogs, barely leaving room for feats on yourself. It doesn't work, yet it almost does, thats the weird artistic beauty of this pack lord.

But seriously, there is like zero room for a real, by the books, RAW, 100% clear, pack lord. Even the official archetypes barely help with multiple companion, and especially not if you want to use them in battle. It's clear pathfinder wants people to have one companion and stick with it. Perhaps a second one to scout for outside combat, but one companion in combat.
Summoning seems the be the better alternative, allowing you to overflow the combat with animal allies. A shaman type (a refluffed wolf shaman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/wolf-shaman) for doggies) can even template their favorite animal to keep using them at higher level.

[Enochi]

Again thank you all very much for the help and ideas. I managed to get in Touch with the DM and he okay me training my Dogs with the Warbeast Template and said I might later be able to add the mage-bred template. Also he okayed me using my dogs as followers.

So this being done and trying to stick to the core rulebook as much as possible. This is what i'm thinking for the start of the build.

Name Besh
Female Gnome (Hides Feminity)

Gnome Paladin
1: Mounted Combat
3: Ride-by-Attack
-------------------
5: Spirited Charge
7: Leadership
9: Power Attack

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 19
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 18
(We build characters using 18 descending stats)

Saves:
Fort: 3 4 4 = 11
Reflex: 1 2 4 = 7
Will: 3 1 4 = 8
(+2 vs Illusion)
(Immune to fear Allies +4)
(Immune to Disease)

Skills:
Ride: 3+2+3-3=5
Handle Animal: 3+4+3=11
Knowledge Religion: 1+1+3=5
Diplomacy: 1+4+3=8
Perception: 1+2=3
Profession: Hound Master 1+2+3=6

Gold: 3000
Masterwork Breast Plate: 350 25lbs
MasterWork Lance: 310 10lbs
Scimitar: 15 4lbs
Warhammer: 12 5lbs
Darkwood Shield: 257 5lbs
Masterwork Composite Longbow: 400 3lbs

Combat Trained Riding Dogs: 150 x2 300
Combat Trained Guard Dogs: 25 x 6 150
Breast Plate Barding: 400 30 lbs x 2 800
Hide Armor Barding: 30 25 lbs x 6 180
Military Saddle: 20 30lbs
Saddlebags: 4 8lbs

Primary Attack and Defense mods:
AC: 10+6+2+2+1=21 (+4 vs Giants)(Smite +4 vs Evil Target)
Attack: 3+3+1+1=8 (+1 vs Golbinoids/Reptilnoids)(Smite Evil Target +4)

HP = 10+12+3+2d10

Lance:
Attack +8
Damage 1d6+3 (x2 on charge)(Crit 20x3)

Warhammer:
Attack +8
Damage 1d6+3 (Crit 20x3)

Scimitar:
Attack +7
Damage 1d4+3 (Crit 18-20x2)

Longbow:
Attack +6
Damage 1d6+3 (Crit 20x3)

Mounts: (Prefered Breed English Mastiff or Great Dane)
Riding Dog Names: Kaiser, Purity. (1 Male, 1 Female Alphas)
HP: (2d8+4)
AC: 10+1+2+6=19 (Touch 12, Flat-foot 17)

Low-light Vision
Scent

Saves:
Fort: 5
Ref: 5
Will: 1

Skills:
Acrobatics +6 (+14 jumping) -4 armor check
Perception +8
Survival +1 (+5 scent tracking)

Speed 40ft(30 Armored)

Attack: +3
Damage: 1d6+3+Trip
Combat Training: Trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Guard Dog Names: Viktor, Krieg, Rune, Hookwolf, Othala, Crusader, Fenja, Menja.
HP: (2d8+4)
AC: 10+1+2+4=17 (Touch 12, Flat-foot 15)

Low-light Vision
Scent

Saves:
Fort: 5
Ref: 5
Will: 1

Skills:
Acrobatics +6 (+14 jumping) -3 armor check
Perception +8
Survival +1 (+5 scent tracking)

Speed 40ft(30 Armored)

Attack: +3
Damage: 1d6+3+Trip
Combat Training: Trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Deity: Gaerdal Ironhand

Gives me an 8 dog starting "pack" so to speak. Brownie point to whoever gets what the dog's names are from!

[Spore]

You do realize a well placed AoE or trap or anything kills half your critters?

[NightbringerGGZ]

There's no way to get a ton of dogs without them being horribly vulnerable to pretty much any attack. At that point, they're pretty much just a gold sink. They're also a pain in the ass to deal with in actual game play, as your turns will take forever.

You can use Cavalier, Druid or Hunter to get an animal companion at first level. If you go Cavalier with a Riding Dog, you can pick up the Horse Master feat at level 5 and start taking Hunter levels. Boon Companion at level 7 will net you two hounds at full character level. The Hunter class is sure to have a variant that lets you have multiple animals, so you have the option of picking up a third animal an Boon Companion again at level 9. That's about the best you'll be able to do.