summon X, which spells are the best?

[sideswipe]

out of the various summon X lines (monster, undead, natures ally) which is the most powerful? and not mixed with this and that and this prestige class but which as a standard spell series is the best? maybe one i have not stated?


secondly, which is the best when mixed with other things to optimise summoning, wizards and clerics have great prestiges but natures ally has the ashbound and greenbound (RAW not FAQ) so which then is the most powerful?

i was literally just thinking of this as i was being dragged around the shops today buying various household items by the other half. and i thought "i know a great bunch of people to ask".

[Chronos]

As a general rule, Nature's Ally is better for beatsticks, and Monster is better for getting creatures with spell-like or other interesting abilities.

[HunterOfJello]

I like the support for summon nature's ally the best. Faster access to the larger elementals combined with Rashemi Elemental Summoning (feat) and a Ring of the Beast makes for an awesome elemental summoning character.

however, i think summon undead is top notch until you hit level 6 spells (since there isn't a Summon Undead VI)

[Segev]

Perhaps it's because I want my necromancers to use necromancy to get their minions, but I've always been horribly underwhelmed by the Summon Undead line.

[Chronos]

The big thing with Summon Undead is that it gives you access to undead critters before you'd be able to get them via necromancy. This is especially relevant for creatures like the Allip, which can totally devastate many opponents you'd face at that level (or even some opponents you'd face at level 20).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Does the Conjure Ice Beast line count? It's technically a Creation spell, but functions identically to the summon spells (range, cast time, duration) and basically just gives you a templated construct version of a creature from those lists. Except it lets you pick from BOTH of SM and SNA other than fire creatures and they get added goodies.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's kind of tough to say. In general, Summon Monster is the most versatile, but takes a while to come into its own. Summon Nature has some nice aspects but gets pretty boring quickly. Summon Undead is mostly good at SMIV for the allip.

More specifically...


There is basically never a time when I would prefer something off of the Summon Monster I or II list to something off of the Summon Nature's Ally I or II list. The fiendish/celestial template basically only becomes good if you've got at least 5 HD, and nothing off of these two lists has 5 HD yet.
Once you hit SM III, things change. By this point, you can start finding summoned critters with enough HD to start getting SR and DR from the fiendish/celestial templates, so Summon Monster can actually summon beefier creatures, if your goal is to put a wall of flesh between you and your opponent. Also, with the dretch, you begin getting access to SLAs. SNA, on the other hand, tends to deal higher damage.
This continues to be true throughout the higher levels - the Summon Monster line gives you tougher, more versatile options, while the Summon Nature's Ally line tends to be higher damage. Note that SM IX really catches up damage-wise, though.
Summon Undead is mostly not very good for anything other than putting a chunk of hit points for your enemy to strike down, and isn't really worth focusing on. There are, however, diamonds in the rough, the big one being the oft-mentioned allip.
Conjure Ice Beast is... interesting. It lets you pick and choose off of both the Summon Monster and SNA lists, but ice beasts are constructs and therefore lose access to a lot of what makes the original creature good, including feats and special abilities. I'd probably rate it below both, despite the fact that you can choose from either list.



When feats and the like are being taken into account, it's really hard to beat Greenbound Summoning. The greenbound template is really good, and it gives you access to what is arguably one of the druid's best spells, Wall of Thorns, from level one. Ashbound and Rashemi Elemental Summoning are just the icing on the cake. Malconvokers and their effective doubling up of summoned critters are cool, but I'd still probably give the edge to the druid when all feats and abilities are taken into account.

Or, you know, play an archivist and do it all.

[Bullet06320]

I prefer the summon undead list from magic of faerun, I beat down a balor with huge skeletons once, to the dismay of the DM, that balor was supposed to be used later on, lol

then theres the summon fey line from kingdoms of kalamar player guide

[Darrin]

Everything you need to know about summoning but were afraid to ask:

Summoner's Desk Reference (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) by eggs.

[eggynack]

Everything you need to know about summoning but were afraid to ask:

Summoner's Desk Reference (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) by eggs.
Yeah, it's a really fantastic little reference guide. I poke through it on a pretty frequent basis. I do have to note, however, that the rating on SNA IX pixies is too low, as it fails to take into account the fact that they get irresistible dance, which is pretty nice. Not great, but it's a good spell, and doubly so off of a pixie missile that gets extra minor utility after it uses dance. Oddly enough, the druid handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) makes the exact opposite error, claiming that SNA VII pixies get dance, which they don't, and thus not listing SNA IX pixies at all. Weird junk, that, though it's to be expected when dealing with those beguiling pixies.