Improved Trip & Sneak Attack

[Honeyed Words]

Improved Trip
The improved trip feat is undoubtedly quite handy. It very specifically states that upon making a successful trip, the PC can make a follow up attack as if the trip was not performed. It sounds relatively simple but that merits a bit of concern for us rogues. If you make a trip attempt against an adversary who is unaware of you, he is considered both flat footed AND at touch AC. Awesome odds, obviously. However, a normal rogue who performs this action then will hit the man on the ground NEXT turn. When he does, the enemy will be considered flatfooted and his AC would therefore be reduced. However he'll be denied his sneak attack because the enemy just looked up from his heap to see who grounded him. In the case of improved trip, however, the followup attack would take place immediately after tripping the foe, and assumedly before he can perceive the threat (well enough to divert it). The rogue would then make his damage roll with his extra sneak attack die, correct? The feat seems to state very clearly that the following attack would be made under the same situation as the trip before it.

AAAND finally, can that sneak attack roll, or any sneak attack roll from a range that close, be made with a ranged weapon (a hand crossbow)? I ask because if a sneak attack can be made it must be made under the most favorable conditions, and the threat range for a ranged weapon to sneak attack is 30 feet (the range of a hand crossbow, anyhow). Is there a close range at which the advantage of using a ranged weapon is obsolete, and therefore the sneak attack would be lost? I see a rogue putting the arrowhead against the back of some poor enemy's neck and firing doing alot of damage, but regardless, there are circumstances where I must wonder the politics.
Thoughts?

[Taveena]

As they haven't acted yet, they are still considered flat footed, and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

[Chronos]

Sneak Attack does not require that the target be unaware of you. If they're denied their Dex bonus, by whatever means (such as being flatfooted), that's enough. Or if they're flanked, that's also enough. The target being unaware of you is one way they might be denied their Dex bonus, but it's not the only one.

And you can attack with a ranged weapon at any range up to its maximum, and can sneak attack with one at any range up to 30'. Both are allowed for someone right next to you. The only reason you might not want to attack someone right next to you with a ranged weapon is that using most ranged weapons provokes an attack of opportunity.

[ace rooster]

They don't get to act between your trip and your improved trip attack, so if they were flat footed for the first they are flat footed for the second. I may be misunderstanding you, but are you assuming that prone opponents are always flat footed? They are not. They get a -4 penalty to AC (versus melee) and melee attacks, but those are the only penalties.

Using a hand crossbow doesn't work, as imp trip demands a melee attack. Even if you could use a ranged attack it would still not work well. If they are flat footed they don't get an attack of opportunity, and you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon fine, but you would not get a sneak attack from flanking. The really big problem is that being prone gives them a +4 to AC against ranged attacks, so it is actually harder to hit them. The fact that you are standing right next to them does not change it from being a ranged attack. If you can find a way to actually make a melee attack with a hand crossbow then that would work fine. Given that you could just use a spiked gauntlet anyway I would probably just rule of cool allow it as a DM, but RAW it doesn't work.

Also, 30ft is the range increment, not the range. The absolute range is 10x that, ie 300ft.

[Honeyed Words]

They don't get to act between your trip and your improved trip attack, so if they were flat footed for the first they are flat footed for the second. I may be misunderstanding you, but are you assuming that prone opponents are always flat footed? They are not. They get a -4 penalty to AC (versus melee) and melee attacks, but those are the only penalties.

Using a hand crossbow doesn't work, as imp trip demands a melee attack. Even if you could use a ranged attack it would still not work well. If they are flat footed they don't get an attack of opportunity, and you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon fine, but you would not get a sneak attack from flanking. The really big problem is that being prone gives them a +4 to AC against ranged attacks, so it is actually harder to hit them. The fact that you are standing right next to them does not change it from being a ranged attack. If you can find a way to actually make a melee attack with a hand crossbow then that would work fine. Given that you could just use a spiked gauntlet anyway I would probably just rule of cool allow it as a DM, but RAW it doesn't work.

Also, 30ft is the range increment, not the range. The absolute range is 10x that, ie 300ft.

I would mean to trip said person with a foot, but if rule of cool comes into play i could always grab his foot and yank. The shot then would follow up, pegging him squarly, and diverting the aforementioned AoO because of the opponents circumstances. However, you mentioned the +4 against range and that, i had not known. How about bayonetting the front of the hand crossbow with a small dagger? I'm sure there are other alternatives, too.

It doesn't pertain much to the thread either, but i have a leather gauntlet outfited with claws to aid in scaling trees and houses (Like the new Prince of Persia). Could this perhaps be used to deal a "melee attack" or would this count as unarmed damage? Either way, i went through the painstaking process of developing these pieces of 'climbing gear' in game. It includes leather boots with digs, similair to the claw and also relatively pointy, so i could kick the ever loving **** out of him, perhaps?

[ace rooster]

I would mean to trip said person with a foot, but if rule of cool comes into play i could always grab his foot and yank. The shot then would follow up, pegging him squarly, and diverting the aforementioned AoO because of the opponents circumstances. However, you mentioned the +4 against range and that, i had not known. How about bayonetting the front of the hand crossbow with a small dagger? I'm sure there are other alternatives, too.


How you trip is unimportant (unarmed or with a tripping weapon), my point was that imp trip demands that the follow up attack has to be a melee attack. A prone character still threatens fine, albiet at a -4 to hit, so they would still get an AoO if they were not initially flat footed, which is another reason to make it a melee attack. I think there are bayonettes in arms and equipment, but I don't have access to it so someone else would have to confirm that.

Spiked gauntlets work as weapons, so I would assume your tiger claw would be fine.

[jordan.k93]

Whether or not someone is flat footed doesn't change during a round.

For instance, if my half orc barbarian had decided he didn't like the way the elf was talking about him and out of the blue used quick draw to pull out his greataxe, took a five foot step, and took FIVE swings, he is hitting flt footed for all five.

Grab Weapon - Flatfooted
5ft Step - Flatfooted
Attack 1 - Flatfooted
Attack 2 - Flatfooted
etc
etc
etc

EDIT

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Further More!

Since the Elf has yet to act, if the Half Orc Barbarian wins initiative, his next FIVE attacks are also against the Elf's flat footed... "Those five attacks were really surprising, but I REALLY didn't see those other five either"
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The trip attack and the follow up attack are considered to occur within the same amount of time as a regular amount of time, so imagine a quick leg sweep and stab that occurs in the same amount of time, this target is still surprised as hell.

[Segev]

Since the Elf has yet to act, if the Half Orc Barbarian wins initiative, his next FIVE attacks are also against the Elf's flat footed... "Those five attacks were really surprising, but I REALLY didn't see those other five either"

Justified slightly because those 5 attacks all happen in a flurry of less than six seconds, and if you weren't expecting them, each would just put you more and more off-balance until you manage to regroup your mental faculties.

The attacks that happen before you stop being flat-footed are effectively "bam bap bam biff pow" in quick succession, all before you even have realized you're under attack and gotten your body to start moving defensively. This really does happen in fights when people are jumped and hit before they even know a fight is possible.

[jordan.k93]

Justified slightly because those 5 attacks all happen in a flurry of less than six seconds, and if you weren't expecting them, each would just put you more and more off-balance until you manage to regroup your mental faculties.

The attacks that happen before you stop being flat-footed are effectively "bam bap bam biff pow" in quick succession, all before you even have realized you're under attack and gotten your body to start moving defensively. This really does happen in fights when people are jumped and hit before they even know a fight is possible.

Sure, I just find the mental imagery of a crazed half orc with a 5ft great axe swinging and roaring, hitting the guy 10 times before the elf begins to defend himself...

"Hey, this is fantasy, shut up" is the correct way to deal with it not making complete sense in real life.

It's sure funny to imagine though

[Flickerdart]

Sure, I just find the mental imagery of a crazed half orc with a 5ft great axe swinging and roaring, hitting the guy 10 times before the elf begins to defend himself...
Well, chances are that after the second or third hit, he'll stop hitting an elf and start hitting an elf corpse.

Also, remember that HP doesn't correlate directly with axe to the face. The elf might still be dodging in-narrative - the kind of dodge that turns a decapitation into a glancing blow but still knocks the wind out of him, or the kind of dodge that sends him crashing into a table instead of conveniently ducking under it. You know those fights where the attacker is completely overpowering the defender, who can do nothing but take it until he finds an opening to counter-attack and turn the tide of the right? It's sort of like that.

Double also, the second set of five hits are technically supposed to be at the same time the elf is making his own attacks. It's just a limitation of the turn-based system that the elf doesn't get to act until he takes 10 (punches to the face).

[nedz]

If you had two attacks available then you could Trip and follow up with a sneak attack via your crossbow. You couldn't use the free attack from Improved Trip to generate this second attack since that only allows you a free melee attack — you would need something like a full attack with BAB 6+ to do this.

[Zombimode]

Since the Elf has yet to act, if the Half Orc Barbarian wins initiative, his next FIVE attacks are also against the Elf's flat footed... "Those five attacks were really surprising, but I REALLY didn't see those other five either"

Was the Elf unaware of the Barbarian? From what you have told it doesn't seem so. Thus, there is no surprise round. If the Elf is flat-footed against the Barbarian depends on who wins initiative.

[ace rooster]

Whether or not someone is flat footed doesn't change during a round.

For instance, if my half orc barbarian had decided he didn't like the way the elf was talking about him and out of the blue used quick draw to pull out his greataxe, took a five foot step, and took FIVE swings, he is hitting flt footed for all five.



Since the Elf has yet to act, if the Half Orc Barbarian wins initiative, his next FIVE attacks are also against the Elf's flat footed... "Those five attacks were really surprising, but I REALLY didn't see those other five either"


As has been pointed out, there are questions as to whether the half orc gets a surprise round (maybe throw in a sense motive check. Static DC unless the barbarian is trying to be suptle. Maybe throw on BABs as modifers to rolls and diff), but even if he does he would only get a single attack in it (standard action only).