Dweomerkeeper vs Halruaan Elder

[Melcar]

Hello again...

So... I have this level 30 mage, which I have mentioned a few times on this board, which I have played from level 1. Now I was planning to go 3 levels of Human Paragon and well after that Im unsure of what to do. Since we do allows 3rd party, I had been thinking of something from there, specifically the Wordbearer, but I became interested in the Dweomerkeeper and Halruaan elder, after reading about them in a post, not too long ago.

What I'm looking for is information on the pros and cons of the two classes and which one is the more cheesier?

AND ofc your own personal oppinion!

[tyckspoon]

Most of their class features are really quite similar; you get reduced metamagic costs (Halruan Elder gets it on up to 4 select metamagic feats throughout the progression, Dweomerkeeper gets it on everything at level 10.) You get some ability to spontaneously convert to specific spells. They both have an annoying entry prereq, although Dweomerkeeper's is probably less terrible; there are ways to be a divine caster without actually taking divine levels, and even if you do wind up having to dip for it there aren't too many better dips in the game than Cleric with the Magic domain (go Cloistered Cleric and trade off your other Domains for neat Devotion feats if you want.) You already have a lot of free metamagic (and qualify for Improved Metamagic, so if you want more you just take another copy of that feat anyway) and spell flexibility, tho, so those aren't as significant as the classes' signature abilities - Supernatural Spell and Circle Magic.

Which is 'cheesier' depends on your ultimate tolerance, but if you're willing to push the limits of what these abilities do I think Supernatural Spell takes it. Circle Magic mostly takes what you already do and pushes it beyond any reasonable boundary, but it's still more or less what you already do, and you can get a lot of the way there with Epic Feats like Improved Spell Capacity and Improved Metamagic. Supernatural Spell lets you play with the wonderful world of costless Wishes (there are entire threads dedicated to the nonsense this causes) and formerly-expensive powerful, absolutely loyal minions; look up Simulacrum, Animate Dread Warrior, and Ice Assassin. Think about the most powerful enemy you ever had to fight. Now think about having a 100% copy of that enemy as your ally. Now enjoy not having to pay a single GP, XP, or even more than 1 standard action for it.

[Melcar]

But can Circle magic be used to apply any meta-magic feat, or only Empower, maximized and heightened?

[sleepyphoenixx]

But can Circle magic be used to apply any meta-magic feat, or only Empower, maximized and heightened?

Only those three, but heightening a spell to 20 is a +11 to DCs at least, which is not something you should underestimate.

[Bronk]

I'd go with Dweomerkeeper... you could have a free wish spell as (Su), plus another one every other level...

[Chronos]

Note that you can't Heighten a spell beyond 9th, without some other trick (such as an epic feat).

And note that you don't have to pick your spells in advance for Supernatural Spell: Yeah, Wish is the most useful spell to use with it, but it can also be (for instance) Genesis, or Ice Assassin, or Truename Dispelling, or whatever else is most useful that day.

[Tvtyrant]

If Reserves of Strength is on the table then they come very close to each other, but if not I think Dweomerkeeper wins. Reserves of Strength and Halruaan Elder allows you to PaO yourself permanently into a great wyrm gold dragon at level 17 (if you have leadership or hire a lot of circle casters.) This gives them tons of bonus spells, and then they shapechange into a Gibbering Orb for 2 dozen eye rays a turn (or a Phane to allow it to manipulate time at will.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Note that you can't Heighten a spell beyond 9th, without some other trick (such as an epic feat).

Circle Magic explicitly allows you to heighten a spell to level 20. It's a big part of why Circle Magic is so broken.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're level 30, so you want your 5th level of Halruaan Elder to be at or before your 15th character level if you're going to take it at all. If you can retrain five of your Wizard levels to Halruaan Elder per PH2 Chapter 8, then go for it. The reason for this is because you want to make Simulacrums of yourself, which have half of your hit dice or levels, so they'll only be 15th level. You want your simulacrums to be able to lead their own circles. They do circle magic together, each of them gains a bunch of spell levels from the others, each of them uses all their gained spell levels to heighten one of their spells to 20th level. When you lead a circle they each cast their 20th level spell, giving you 20 spell levels per participant. Honestly, the greatest advantage from circle magic is having a caster level of 40 prior to 20th level, since you're already epic level the value of this will be significantly diminished. If you can't have simulacrums of yourself leading their own circles to each give you twenty spell levels then again the value of it is significantly diminished.

If using Dweomerkeeper, make sure to use the 3.5 version (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). Ideally you'll get Practiced Spellcaster, take three levels of Cloistered Cleric to pick up the feat Initiate of Mystra in PGtF, and then get Dweomerkeeper. You can turn spells into supernatural abilities, removing any verbal, somatic, or material components as well as xp costs from them, and making them automatically bypass SR and every form of magic immunity that was updated for 3.5 edition. That means casting Wish for no xp cost.

[Melcar]

Thats also the conclusion that I arive at. Both classes are very nice, but supernatural spell, is simple just too good to pass on. And since my character is a devoted Mystra worshipper, it would fit perfectly if he became a Dweomerkeeper.

[Bronk]

And note that you don't have to pick your spells in advance for Supernatural Spell: Yeah, Wish is the most useful spell to use with it, but it can also be (for instance) Genesis, or Ice Assassin, or Truename Dispelling, or whatever else is most useful that day.

Thanks, I had missed that!