On Mirror Mephits, Simulacrum, and Deities

[Chronos]

So, optimizers all know about Mirror Mephits, right? They're a 4 HD outsider (thus available via Lesser Planar Ally/Binding) published in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, that have Simulacrum as a spell-like ability 1/day, caster level 8. Now, as a spell-like ability, it has no material component, which in turn means that a Mirror Mephit can create a simulacrum of any creature at all, so long as 16 HD or less. So this little 4-HD critter can make a copy of, say, a 16th-level wizard.

Now, the Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) spell does limit this a bit: The copy only has half the HD or levels of the original, with the appropriate abilities. So when we copy a 16-level wizard, we're effectively only getting an 8th-level wizard. Still plenty powerful, but not appreciably more powerful than the 7th-level caster needed to cast a Lesser Planar Ally/Binding. One possibility for working around this is to copy a monster instead, like a 10 HD Efreet or a 16-HD Black Ethergaunt. But then we run into the problem that they still only have the abilities appropriate to a creature of half their level, and it's not clear just what abilities a 5 HD efreet or an 8 HD ethergaunt has.

But I've found a new target: A god. Now, normally, gods have 40 or more HD, and so are well out of range of Simulacrum... but the Web enhancement for Deities and Demigods (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020406a) introduces a new god, Erbin, the humble god of beggars, who has a much more manageable number of HD. Better yet, they give him stats for a variety of different power levels, so we know what we're getting when we halve him. If we copy the 10th-level, DR 6 version, then we're getting the 5th-level version. Stats aren't given for the 5th-level version, but they are for the 2nd-level, DR 1 version, and we know we're getting at least that. So a piddly little mirror mephit can create, once per day, a creature that can, at a minimum, use any spell from the Destruction, Evil, and Trickery domains at will as a spell-like ability, can sense anything that happens withing one mile of an unnecessary act of cruelty, and can create at-will thievish items worth up to 4500 GP for free.

Not a bad return on investment for a 4th-level spell, eh?

[Chronos]

Did I just post this at a bad time, or did all the optimizers already know about this?

[eggynack]

Can't say I was aware of the trickery, and it seems pretty nifty. Don't really have all that much to say on the topic beyond that, however.

[nedz]

Did I just post this at a bad time, or did all the optimizers already know about this?

You posted it just after 0430 over here FWIW.

Another Simulacrum weeze — the problem with this is that messing with deities usually runs straight into Rule 0.
So it's TO — nice catch.

Not much more to add.

[Lanson]

If I recall, mirror mephit is called out as a viable familiar at CL7 and improved familiar, and it's not half bad as I recall, even if you aren't using it's simulacrum to best effect

[Chronos]

For that matter, using Mirror Mephits for, well, pretty much anything is TO.

I still haven't figured out a way to use Mirror Mephit to get a Wish or equivalent (Shapechange, Planar Binding, etc.), though (assuming that a half-HD efreet, ethergaunt, etc doesn't get all its spells/SLAs).

[Chronos]

Quoth Me:

I still haven't figured out a way to use Mirror Mephit to get a Wish or equivalent (Shapechange, Planar Binding, etc.), though (assuming that a half-HD efreet, ethergaunt, etc doesn't get all its spells/SLAs).
Wait, I've got it: The creature to be copied is a sylph, advanced to 8 RHD, with another 8 class levels on top of that, who has Planar Binding as a spell known. A Simulacrum copy of her would then have just the 8 RHD, with the spellcasting appropriate to an 8 RHD sylph. Sylphs cast as sorcerers of a level equal to their HD +4, so this simulacrum of a sylph can cast as a 12th-level sorcerer, enabling Planar Binding to call an efreet, to get the efreet's wishes. There we go; now a Lesser Planar Binding is enough to get one admission to the TO Wish Merry-go-Round.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have two issues with this, neither of which I am sure of. Please provide examples to back up counterarguments, if possible, as I'm fairly certain these have been covered before, I'm just not familiar with the ancient history of this debate.

1.) Gods aren't "creatures" per se.

2.) Even if they are creatures, they don't have bodies, and thus can't provide a material component for the normal simulacrum spell, rendering them ineligible targets for simulacrum. Removing the need for the component doesn't remove the inheritance of target restrictions from the spell.

[Psyren]

Erbin is only available to DMs:

"Presented here for your use and enjoyment is a divine character— Erbin, the beggar god—for your player characters to encounter in any of five different divine ranks."

Without a DM you can't actually put him into the campaign to be copied.

[Menzath]

I'll have to remember to break out these when I cast mephit mob on my druid.
I will have to keep it toned down sadly so as not to get book->face.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'll have to remember to break out these when I cast mephit mob on my druid.
I will have to keep it toned down sadly so as not to get book->face.

That won't work. Even if you ignore the "mephits can't summon or otherwise conjure another creature" clause, Simulacrum takes 12 hours to cast and SLAs retain the spells casting time unless specified otherwise.
Also, all spell effects of a summoned creature end when the summoning does.

[Darrin]

That won't work. Even if you ignore the "mephits can't summon or otherwise conjure another creature" clause, Simulacrum takes 12 hours to cast and SLAs retain the spells casting time unless specified otherwise.


Monster Manual page 315:

"Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise..."



Also, all spell effects of a summoned creature end when the summoning does.


Hence the planar ally instead of summon mirror mephit spell. A called creature has no restrictions on their SLAs.

As far as summoned creatures casting spells, the text from the PHB:

"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire."

Unfortunately, "expire" is not defined by the rules, but we can surmise from context that it's only used to refer to spells with an ongoing duration. Simulacrum, however, is an instantaneous spell, so if we could force a summoned creature to use it as an SLA (perhaps via dominate monster), it has no ongoing duration and thus cannot expire. The simulacrum would remain, much as the effects of any other instantaneous spell would remain after the summon expires.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Monster Manual page 315:

"Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise..."


The SRD has it a little differently



A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

I'm sure that rule can be found somewhere in the books, too, but i'm not going to go looking through all of them. Afaik the SRD includes the latest version of the rules, and in this case i'd play it that way anyway because it shuts down a fair amount of abuse.

[Zombulian]

The SRD has it a little differently


I'm sure that rule can be found somewhere in the books, too, but i'm not going to go looking through all of them. Afaik the SRD includes the latest version of the rules, and in this case i'd play it that way anyway because it shuts down a fair amount of abuse.

Oh that's lame. That shuts down a classic abuse of the DFA with their Baleful Geass invocation. The only reason it was worth anything was because you could supposedly do it as a standard action.

[Lanson]

I wonder what WotC was thinking with creatures like these. Wouldn't they catch on and just make any plane they are on a grey goo scenario?

Edit: That might actually be fun to play

[Jack_Simth]

For that matter, using Mirror Mephits for, well, pretty much anything is TO.

I still haven't figured out a way to use Mirror Mephit to get a Wish or equivalent (Shapechange, Planar Binding, etc.), though (assuming that a half-HD efreet, ethergaunt, etc doesn't get all its spells/SLAs).

Well, first, we make it a familiar via Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar).
Then, get it a bunch of UMD (via taking the skill yourself).
Convince it to invoke a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads. This gets it's caster level to 12. It can now make copies of things that have 24 hit dice (producing 12 HD simulacra).
We don't actually need that much. Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) have an advancement line that can put them up to 30 hit dice. If you have it Simulacra an Advanced Efreeti of 20 hit dice, you get... an essentially stock Efreeti with 10 hit dice.

[...]

You posted it just after 0430 over here FWIW.

Another Simulacrum weeze — the problem with this is that messing with deities usually runs straight into Rule 0.
So it's TO — nice catch.

Not much more to add.

What's rule 0? I haven't heard of that.

[Erik Vale]

1.) Gods aren't "creatures" per se.

2.) Even if they are creatures, they don't have bodies, and thus can't provide a material component for the normal simulacrum spell, rendering them ineligible targets for simulacrum. Removing the need for the component doesn't remove the inheritance of target restrictions from the spell.

1) To my knowledge, there are two catagories of physical things in DnD, Creatures and Objects, Gods aren't objects, so they are creatures.
They then fall into sub-catagories such as Unique, Outsiders, Dieties and the like, but they are still creatures.

2) Since when do gods not have bodies? :smallconfused:

[nedz]

What's rule 0? I haven't heard of that.

DM Fiat.

abcdefg

[Chronos]

Gods are definitely creatures, as they have Wis and Cha scores. Anything with a Wis and Cha score is a creature, anything without them is an object, and nothing has one score but not the other. They really should have put a deity exception in Simulacrum (and a number of other spells), but probably figured it wasn't necessary because of the HD limit. Actually, what they really should have done was to put a rule in the deity section saying that no mortal magic could grant or produce a divine rank, under any circumstances.

And Summon Mirror Mephit definitely doesn't get you the Simulacrum. Simulacrum has an XP cost, and summoned creatures won't use any spell with an XP cost, nor any SLA that mimics such a spell. That's why I was using Lesser Planar Binding.

[Phelix-Mu]

The only stats given for gods, as far as I know, are for their avatars, which are manifestations of their will and a function of their divine rank, not very much like bodies (since they have several and can form/undo them, ostensibly not having even one active at a time, though I'm not terribly familiar with how 3e handled this).

Basically, a deity is not = his or her avatar, which means that the avatar isn't their body, just one of their abilities. I believe the entries given describe avatars. Thus, you could ostensibly gain the toenail of a god's avatar, but I am not satisfied that this is the same thing as their body.

[Psyren]

I won't comment on the "does a deity really have a body" debate, but what I will point out is that there are stats for both the god's avatar/aspect and the actual god itself in many cases. Deities and Demigods has two entries per deity for that very reason.

Thankfully it's a practice that went out of vogue by the time Eberron rolled around.

[Phelix-Mu]

I won't comment on the "does a deity really have a body" debate, but what I will point out is that there are stats for both the god's avatar/aspect and the actual god itself in many cases. Deities and Demigods has two entries per deity for that very reason.

Thankfully it's a practice that went out of vogue by the time Eberron rolled around.

Deities and Demigods was a right hash of a book, by many accounts. I certainly prefer the mix of specific and ultra-vague from 2e. Stats for Arthurian heroes as divine beings? Yes, that's AWESOME.

But too much codification of what deities are/aren't just leads to problems.

[Erik Vale]

To my knowledge, gods as presented are only avatars if they say they are, like Asmodeus.