Forgotten Realms Crash Course

[CockroachTeaParty]

Seeing as how FR will be the default setting for 5th edition, I figured I should learn about it.

It never really interested me before, for reasons I have difficulty fully explaining. It seemed like a setting with such a dense history that I questioned what I could possibly add to it, as a player or DM. I felt as if it was an invitation to dwarf player characters beneath the shadows of a long list of big-name NPCs.

A friend of mine let me borrow the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, originally penned for 3rd edition. I understand that it has changed a great deal post 4E, but I figured it would serve as a good foundation to understand the world as a whole.

I just finished thumbing through it... after a while, my vision began to blur. There's so many fiddly regions, nations, languages... and seemingly endless deities. I managed to grasp some of the bigger historical events, but on the whole I didn't know how to process things.

It seems like a giant sandbox, which I suppose is the point of a campaign setting. But what are you supposed to do with it? What possible role do low-level heroes have in a world filled with multiple epic level wizards?

...sorry. I'll try not to let my initial dislike for the setting seep too much into my first attempt at understanding it. Can someone more versed in Realms lore help me out? What's the big thing to take away from FR? What's the proper mindset to approach it, if one exists? How did 4th edition alter things, and how might it change again now that 5th edition is here?

I ask because I'd like to take a stab at writing adventures for 5th edition, and it seems prudent to be more knowledgeable about the default setting.

[akaddk]

I ask because I'd like to take a stab at writing adventures for 5th edition, and it seems prudent to be more knowledgeable about the default setting.
You should probably read through the setting books then.


I just finished thumbing through it... after a while, my vision began to blur.
Oh...

[EccentricCircle]

Yeah, I have a copy of the 3e Forgotten realms book, but find it one of the hardest D&D books ever to read. It's got so much small text and tries to cover so much that I found it almost impossible to read cover to cover. It's just too dense and complicated.

I tend to use it to reference things I don't understand in one of the more specific FR sourcebooks which i've found to be much more readable. Maybe a better starting point would be to pick up a book on something you're already interested in and use that as your starting point into the setting?

It's never going to be my favorite world, and I'm never going to write adventures set there, but it has useful bits and pieces that can be applied useful, for example I particularly like the discussion of the Yuan ti in the serpent kingdoms book, as that's something which you don't get elsewhere in 3e.

[Madfellow]

It seems like a giant sandbox, which I suppose is the point of a campaign setting. But what are you supposed to do with it? What possible role do low-level heroes have in a world filled with multiple epic level wizards?

Not everything has to be big and epic in scope. That's especially true at lower levels, where games usually start out. If you're worried about Elminster and Drizzt overshadowing your party, my advice is to just not worry about them. Elminster and Drizzt are legendary characters that live in the Realms and are widely recognized within them, but that doesn't mean that they have to feature in your games. At all.

The fate of the world doesn't always have to be at stake when you're playing D&D. When the PCs just start out, it's usually more about protecting the small village that took them in from orc raids and the like. Or maybe it's about collecting loot and making a name for themselves. Your players are the heroes of their own story. They shape it and tell it where to go. They do what they want. Elminster and Drizzt aren't so much characters as they are examples for your party to follow or disregard as they choose.

The most important question to answer in any story is this one: What does the hero want? Does he want to be famous? Does he want revenge against someone who wronged him? Does he want to reunite with his family? Does he want to settle down somewhere quiet? Ask your players to answer that question for their own characters. And then throw a dragon at them. Or an orc horde. Or whatever you please. Something that will threaten to take away from them what they most desperately want. That's how you start a good story.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I've ran and played in many FR games and I still haven't read any of the books or finished any of the setting books.

Seriously.

I use basic stuff like maps and water deep but I make a crap ton stuff up for my own games. I tried to like FR back in 3e but I've found it to be Meh.

I'll stick with spell jammer, Darksun, and other settingabthat actually have some character instead of FR.

But if you don't want to, and you aren't playing adventurer league, then I'm not sure why you would bother with anything other than some crunch from the book setting... Maybe monsters or traps or specific locations that can all be brought into other games and such.

[Tholomyes]

I guess I'll tack on to the OP, as I was already considering making a similar thread, though one thing I want to know that the OP didn't really ask is: Why should I care about the Realms? The thing that I consistently find when I try to read about FR, is I don't really find myself inspired to run a campaign in the setting. I am willing to chalk that up to the campaign setting books being pretty lousy, as some have noted in this thread, but I still haven't heard much to inspire me to run something in that setting.

So, what is there to the Realms that can't be gotten with other settings, or that it does so much better than other settings?

[Mr.Moron]

If you don't mind clunky interfaces and some dated graphics, you might try playing some of the video games. They're a bit limited in scope, but I found they represented a setting I liked.

[Callin]

For me it was wanting to play and explore the areas that i read about in books. Having a character worship a mythos that I know about and organizations that have an impact on the world as a whole. Basically.

[archaeo]

So, what is there to the Realms that can't be gotten with other settings, or that it does so much better than other settings?

It sells books. It sells lots and lots of books. And video games! That's why it's the default setting of 5e: it is unquestionably the most popular setting they own, and it has been for a very long time.

Of course, I think you were actually asking, "Why is it popular?" and that's not a question for which I have a good answer. I suspect that failing to do something "so much better than other settings" is actually the crux of the Realms; it doesn't try to distinguish itself from the fantasy canon, as such, but instead serves as a playground for "generic fantasy," a phrase I'm going to use despite "generic" seeming like an epithet. It's Tolkien, more or less, without the bothersome detail of going to court with the Tolkien estate.

I don't think the Realms is trying to get you to prefer it based on the virtues of its setting; I think the Realms expects you to want a rich world filled with lore that nevertheless doesn't stray too far from traditional fantasy tropes. And it wants you to buy R.A. Salvatore novels and play the new Neverwinter Nights MMO and etc. I suppose you also get decades of work on the lore and information, providing a setting with practically limitless depth, should the setting be your cup of tea.

[akaddk]

Of course, I think you were actually asking, "Why is it popular?" and that's not a question for which I have a good answer. I suspect that failing to do something "so much better than other settings" is actually the crux of the Realms; it doesn't try to distinguish itself from the fantasy canon, as such, but instead serves as a playground for "generic fantasy," a phrase I'm going to use despite "generic" seeming like an epithet. It's Tolkien, more or less, without the bothersome detail of going to court with the Tolkien estate.

It's so far from Tolkien it's not funny.

IMO FR appeals to the lowest common denominator in the hobby. It's a power-gamer's paradise. Everyone is a god in mortal form. It's high-magic, high-fantasy where you can be a special snowflake, just like everyone else.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I don't think the Realms is trying to get you to prefer it based on the virtues of its setting; I think the Realms expects you to want a rich world filled with lore that nevertheless doesn't stray too far from traditional fantasy tropes. And it wants you to buy R.A. Salvatore novels and play the new Neverwinter Nights MMO and etc. I suppose you also get decades of work on the lore and information, providing a setting with practically limitless depth, should the setting be your cup of tea.

The more I know about the Realms the more I'm convinced that the campaign setting is a marketing tool: The *real* reason the setting gets massive changes every edition is so the writers can make stories about the cause of the changes. I made the mistake of actually trying out some FR novels once; They were pretty much unreadable.

[archaeo]

It's so far from Tolkien it's not funny.

IMO FR appeals to the lowest common denominator in the hobby. It's a power-gamer's paradise. Everyone is a god in mortal form. It's high-magic, high-fantasy where you can be a special snowflake, just like everyone else.

Well, perhaps Tolkien isn't the ideal example; would David Eddings be preferable?

[Knaight]

It's so far from Tolkien it's not funny.
Pretty much. There are a handful of superficial trappings (the faux-medieval of FR and the vaguelly medievalish LotR, the blatantly stolen elves and dwarves) in common, and that's about it.


IMO FR appeals to the lowest common denominator in the hobby. It's a power-gamer's paradise. Everyone is a god in mortal form. It's high-magic, high-fantasy where you can be a special snowflake, just like everyone else.
I wouldn't characterize it as appealing to the lowest common denominator. The biggest selling point is just that there's a huge amount of stuff, and some people want to play in the setting of some books they've read (probably as kids), which happen to have distinctive characters, when then get brought into the game as ludicrously powerful NPCs.

I don't like the setting - I'm not big on existing campaign settings in general, and this particular one is easily among my least favorite that I'm aware of in any game, and the only reason it isn't at the very bottom is the existence of games like Racial Holy War*. Still, I can understand the appeal of a setting that is well fleshed out and defined around iconic characters - after all, iconic characters are pretty much the entire point of lots of comic book lines, and superhero comics still have a pretty decent following.

*Which is exactly as bad as it sounds.

[Tholomyes]

Of course, I think you were actually asking, "Why is it popular?" and that's not a question for which I have a good answer. I suspect that failing to do something "so much better than other settings" is actually the crux of the Realms; it doesn't try to distinguish itself from the fantasy canon, as such, but instead serves as a playground for "generic fantasy," a phrase I'm going to use despite "generic" seeming like an epithet. It's Tolkien, more or less, without the bothersome detail of going to court with the Tolkien estate.

That's what I was somewhat afraid of. The problem with generic settings, for me, when it comes to existing campaign settings, is that it's fairly easy for me to get that same feel from homebrew, and it can be tailored more easily to the group. Moreover, I personally prefer on the sliding scale of Blank-slate to Encyclopedic History, to be closer to the former, since I don't have to remember as much, and I can change things more on the fly.

[da_chicken]

Well, perhaps Tolkien isn't the ideal example; would David Eddings be preferable?

No, Eddings' worlds are lower magic than Tolkien. It's just that the central characters happen to be one of the so-rare-as-to-be-unique magic users (or happen to be close friends with gods) so it's always on stage.

Forgotten Realms is popular because people read the novels growing up. Most of the novels aren't very good, and the characters aren't super deep, and the entire campaign setting changes every 7-8 years, but as long as there's a town called "Waterdeep" people will play it. People get a kick out of playing a game in a world they know from a novel or movie.

[Tholomyes]

People get a kick out of playing a game in a world they know from a novel or movie.

I've never seen the desire of this. I'd be so worried about messing something up, or not getting the feel of it right, where, in a homebrew setting, I can just borrow what I want (and remember, it's only "ripping off" if people don't like it, otherwise it's "homaging"), and allow myself to fill in the gaps without worrying about getting things wrong. And this is all in addition to the whole 'ability to tailor it to the players and party better' that I mentioned earlier.

[BoutsofInsanity]

The other thing to remember is that you can also change the levels of the campaign. Make Elimister be level 15. Drizzit level 9. Make them manageable. Alter the game.

Forgotten Realms provides a neat backdrop for you to play in with ton of backstories and locations to visit. Run into Drizzit if he got captured and is a slave above ground. Hire Artemis to serve as your assassin lord for your Thieves guild. Hunt down the Baalspawn and slay Gorion. Tons of stuff you can do in the game with the existing characters. Elimister has disappeared. Go find and save him. Then kill the thing that captured him.

Lots of stuff to do in the world. Take pre-gen settings and make them your own. Ill freely admit that FR is rather convoluted. Don't focus on that. Strip out the stuff you don't want. Throw in the things you do. Don't focus on the negatives of the setting because you can just change them to positive.

My way for handling the FR's epic level characters is reducing them drastically in level. Then its no longer an issue.

[Madfellow]

The other thing to remember is that you can also change the levels of the campaign. Make Elimister be level 15. Drizzit level 9. Make them manageable. [...]

Better yet:

Kill them off.

Off screen.

I'm not even joking.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I'd go even further and just completely delete them from the canon. "Who's Elminster?"

[CockroachTeaParty]

I've been doing some more digging around, and I have a few more questions:

So the Spellplague heralded the change to 4th edition. Where/what exactly is the status of the realms right now? Has 5th edition officially changed things, or are we waiting for that still? Does anything related to Abier still exist? Is it on its way out? (I take it that's what the Sundering is)

I was saddened, because the one nation I was intrigued by, Mulhorand, was apparently destroyed, along with the Egyptian deities. :(

The FR wiki is difficult to navigate... Anyone better informed have some quick answers?

[Craft (Cheese)]

Has 5th edition officially changed things, or are we waiting for that still? Does anything related to Abier still exist? Is it on its way out? (I take it that's what the Sundering is)

IIRC, they released the first book of the Sundering series, but then the rest of them sorta didn't pan out for some reason. Last I heard something was going on with Lolth becoming the new Mystra.

[Merc_Kilsek]

IIRC, they released the first book of the Sundering series, but then the rest of them sorta didn't pan out for some reason. Last I heard something was going on with Lolth becoming the new Mystra.

All six books are out for The Sundering series.

[Madfellow]

From what I understand, the worlds of Abeir and Toril are separating again, the Weave is healing itself after the Spellplague, and the gods have finally decided to step back a bit and stop meddling in Toril.

So basically, everything's going back to the way it was before 4th edition, except we still have tieflings and dragonborn walking around.

[rlc]

The other thing to remember is that you can also change the levels of the campaign. Make Elimister be level 15. Drizzit level 9. Make them manageable. Alter the game.

Forgotten Realms provides a neat backdrop for you to play in with ton of backstories and locations to visit. Run into Drizzit if he got captured and is a slave above ground. Hire Artemis to serve as your assassin lord for your Thieves guild. Hunt down the Baalspawn and slay Gorion. Tons of stuff you can do in the game with the existing characters. Elimister has disappeared. Go find and save him. Then kill the thing that captured him.

Lots of stuff to do in the world. Take pre-gen settings and make them your own. Ill freely admit that FR is rather convoluted. Don't focus on that. Strip out the stuff you don't want. Throw in the things you do. Don't focus on the negatives of the setting because you can just change them to positive.

My way for handling the FR's epic level characters is reducing them drastically in level. Then its no longer an issue.

pretty much this. you can even think of your campaign as an alternate history if you have to, but that shouldn't make a difference, unless your players are those people.
if you're using the maps, you have a pretty good idea of the distances and geography, so just use them to give yourself one less thing to do.

[Chambers]

First, I recommend reading Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms (http://www.amazon.com/Greenwood-Presents-Elminsters-Forgotten-Realms/dp/0786960345). It's a gazetteer style book that is all lore without regard to a specific edition (though it does include the history of 2e/3e). It's format makes it easier to read and browse through than a Campaign Setting sourcebook and I think serves as better introductory material than reading through the FRCS if one isn't already a fan of the setting.

Second, learning about the history of the Realms from a game table perspective can be useful. The Realms started (and continues) as Ed's home game. It was primarily focused on Cormyr, the Dalelands, and Waterdeep and it's environs. That's one of the reasons that the Cormyr, Dalelands, and Sword Coast regions have a considerable amount of lore in the sourcebooks. If you want to throw darts on a map and start with learning the history of Forgotten Realms my first suggestion would be Cormyr, followed by the Sword Coast (Waterdeep and the North, also known as the Savage Frontier).

One of the reasons I like the Realms is because it is so detailed. I'm one of those who have bookmarks in their copy of Grand History of the Realms and frequently reference it. I see it as a rich tapestry to draw story ideas from and use it to answer the Why questions; Why are these people (heroes, villains, dragons, etc) doing what they are doing? I don't feel beholden to the lore though. Every Realms game I've been in and run has diverged from the official canon at some point and I don't think that's going against the intent. Rather, I think it is precisely the intent to take this huge world and make it your own, in whatever method or manner that means to you.

From an adventure design perspective the Realms provides you with more plot hooks than any adventure writer could need. With the wide variety of regions, cultures, organizations and religious beliefs there's plenty to draw inspiration from for just about any type of fantasy story.


The FR wiki is difficult to navigate... Anyone better informed have some quick answers?

The FR Wiki is useful if you already sort of know what you're looking for. It's not that effective as a general learning tool. Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com/) is another great resource for Realms Lore and home of the most die hard FR fans I know but it's sort of scattered as well. There's an old FAQ (http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm) for the Realms (part of the general Library (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/library.htm)). Of special mention is the "So Saith Ed (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18725)' thread and it's compilation (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/so_saith_ed.htm).

[Tvtyrant]

I like Forgotten Realms because it fits in with the two generic systems (Planescape and Spelljammer) and it has a tremendously long and deep history.

I particularly like the history of Imaskar and Netheril, with their collapses leaving not just city ruins but entire continents scoured free.

[Naanomi]

The draw, and drawback, to Forgotten Realms has been the detail. On the one hand, it offers a wealth of resources to make the world feel 'lived in'; history and customs, a big detailed map with *stuff* and not just points of interest here and there.

On the other hand, it can feel hard to carve a place out for yourself. People complain about the 'uber NPCs', but that has never been an issue for me. However, finding a place to plop a village or castle for your own story and not be stumbling over something else that is 'already there'... creating a villain without finding out that FR has two or three of that type of villain already... can be tough.

That being said, my absolute favorite DnD Character ever was a Golden-Eye of Waukeen; adventuring to stimulate local economies much to the chagrin of my Do-Good party members; so I do have fond memories of the place.

[Angelalex242]

Still Tieflings, but where, oh where are the Aasimar?

Bah. I bet they didn't even spare them a line of text in all that fluff, did they?

[Chambers]

CTP, got any more questions about the Realms? I've got a lot of the old sourcebooks and enjoy talking it.

Angelalex242

Not sure I understand your question. Aasimar were covered in the 3e Forgotten Realms at least once that I know of (Races of Faerun). Are you talking about 4e? If so, then 4e FR wouldn't mention Aasimar as they weren't a race in 4e. I don't know if WoTC plans to bring the Aasimar back as a race in 5e, but I don't recall seeing anything about them in the new PHB.

[Icewraith]

As a world already full of high level characters, the presence of a few more doesn't utterly distort the setting as badly. Instead, it's like having a bunch of semi-pregenerated high level allies and enemies for your characters. You can pull several billion (exaggerating a bit here) plot hooks out of the maps and backstory. If you want to use a particular type of monster the realms probably have three different places you can figure out an excuse to send the party to, plus often you don't have to come up with names for monsters, especially dragons.

At least for me personally, the name thing is super helpful. I had one epic adventure where I could not for the life of me come up with good sounding names, so my players went adventuring on the planet Bob. Later they met Bob the Solar.

Also, you can steal npc concepts and mix them together wholesale and your players probably won't notice too much.

A lot of what I ran was my own homebrew, but my players appreciated when I could work it back into the setting smoothly. I ran some plot hooks straight out of the campaign setting, and some plot hooks completely of my own devising, and got a couple of "oh s***" moments from my players when they discovered the two were interconnected.

Basically, as long as you don't have a die-hard fan in your group that'll be insulted if you do anything that breaks with Ed Greenwood's continuity, the Realms are like one of those wire coat hangers. You can unravel those suckers and bend them into any shape you like, but your players will be impressed when it turns out you can still use it as a coat hangar, and even though it's different than the other coat hangers it fits in with them (Assuming you did it right).

[Zeuel]

I really enjoyed the 2nd edition FR books back in the day, but then again I think 2nd edition material in general were much more fun to read.

[Falka]

Forgotten Realms is very good as your first basic campaign because you can play an adventure in nearly any scenario that you can think of for D&D.

I value its usefulness now a bit more because I am DMing a homebrew minicampaign and it's a bit hard to define every little thing. When my players ask for information to put in their background stories, I have to make up things a little bit or sit down and explain them for a long while how is this small world that I depicted (I had to make up a very weird story for my Wizard player to keep his character name for his new Dragonborn - involving a Simulacrum, don't ask).

It's an okay setting, nice because it's popularity allows for many people to know at least a bit from it, so they can research on their own and make nice stories.

Bad because for some people, playing against canon is anathema. Horrible if you try to pull off the standard plot hooks because players will already know them. Some will try to contact high level NPCs (effectively metagaming to get an easy escape route) and it leads to a bit of suspension of disbelief when Elminster just doesn't care about the rumours of a Myrkul cult spreading across the Sword Coast.

4e helped a bit by killing half of the epic NPCs and leaving a post-apocalyptic scenario - then again, it made it a little bit too sandboxish because many many areas were left with no detail... So back we go searching between 3e material to get some plot hooks.

[Angelalex242]

Elminster doesn't have time to help you with the cult. He's too busy going mano a mano with Myrkul.

[Yagyujubei]

If you have time and like to read, you should check out the War of the Spider queen series to really get a mastery of Drow society and the underdark. All Drow campaigns are seriously fun since they guarantee backstabbing, double-crossing, and general intrigue between players.

you could make something almost like a mix of DnD and Paranoia which would be rad

[rlc]

Elminster is on vacation on Earth.
Elminster is kill
The cult is too weak for Elminster to worry about

[Kuulvheysoon]

Elminster doesn't have time to deal with this "small" cell of the cult.
Elminster is dealing with a different problem across the globe.
Elminster is off having a threesome somewhere.:smalltongue: (Hey, this is Ed Greenwood's Realms we're talking about, after all).

[Totema]

Whenever I want to learn about a new fictional universe, I always go to the TV Tropes page and see what I can gleam from it. So...

Heaven forgive me. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms?from=Main.ForgottenRealms)

[Dimers]

EDIT: Forgot to say -- I've seen Chambers do a great job of starting from the deep well of existing world lore and running a game with the potential to change that lore. He really gets people excited about being in the FR gameworld. Good man to take advice from.


I was saddened, because the one nation I was intrigued by, Mulhorand, was apparently destroyed, along with the Egyptian deities.

Teh suck! Mulhorand was one of my favorite places. Didn't know somebody went and destroyed it.


what is there to the Realms that can't be gotten with other settings, or that it does so much better than other settings?

I think one of the draws for Forgotten Realms is that it's easy to change the feel of the game while staying within a single world. You want nomadic hordes? We got nomadic hordes. You want exploration of icy mountains? We got dat. You want big city? We got lotsa big city, sooo big! You want underground? We got more underground than anybody. You want city of honor and city of dishonor? You in the right place. You want samurai? My brother can hook you up with some samurai, he's in the booth right beside mine, he got good selection of Arabian Nights too. You want swashbuckling and piracy? We got dat, I show you, right over here.

To put it in a less silly way ... If you're building your own world, it's hard to build enough to satisfy everyone's preferences and loves. A lot of gameworlds don't even try. But if you can get a hint where to look in FR, there's basically always a suitable region that's fully fleshed out and ready for adventuring.

I don't love FR but there are areas and scenarios within it that I'd enjoy delving further into. FR taken as a whole is just too big to care about, but I'm interesting in Luiren and Mulhorand and Cormyr and Maztica and so forth.

[Zrak]

I think it's kinda weird that people think of Forgotten Realms as a generic setting. It's not weird in the absolutely madcap, bat**** way Mystara is weird, but it's pretty out there in a lot of respects.

[Fable Wright]

You want underground? We got more underground than anybody.
I'mma let you finish, but Eberron has the biggest underground of all time. Seriously, the chaotic infinite interior of a chained overdeity that's so large it generates its own internal demiplanes to hold everything is probably a bit more underground than the finite if absurdly huge expanses of the Underdark.

[Tvtyrant]

I'mma let you finish, but Eberron has the biggest underground of all time. Seriously, the chaotic infinite interior of a chained overdeity that's so large it generates its own internal demiplanes to hold everything is probably a bit more underground than the finite if absurdly huge expanses of the Underdark.

I thought Faerun's Underdark melded into the Elemental Plane of Earth and certain points, and so actually was infinite?

Also saying something is big is different then actually mapping out thousands of miles of Underdark.

[GungHo]

Elminster doesn't have time to help you with the cult. He's too busy going mano a mano with Myrkul.

Yeah, I don't get this complaint unless it's made by people who have never been in a workplace or other organization. I mean, I'm pretty sure some of the IT managers in my company once were coders or server technicians. Do folks really think that they go do the coding themselves or hook up the cables for the important stuff? No, they delegate that stuff. They may delegate some things to their "high-fliers" to ensure it's done properly and they may micromanage to some extent, but they still aren't getting their hands dirty... because they're managers and they don't need to do that any more. If you're younger and haven't been in the workplace... do you think the dean of your university or principal of your high school should come teach everyone Algebra I? Why would Elminster or Manshoon or any other Big Boss go get their hands dirty everywhere? They have people for that. Those people happen to be you.

[Chambers]

Thanks for the kind words Dimers.


I'mma let you finish, but Eberron has the biggest underground of all time. Seriously, the chaotic infinite interior of a chained overdeity that's so large it generates its own internal demiplanes to hold everything is probably a bit more underground than the finite if absurdly huge expanses of the Underdark.

Nice. There are a fair number of Earth Elemental Nodes in the Underdark though, which isn't too shabby.

[Zeuel]

Yeah, I don't get this complaint unless it's made by people who have never been in a workplace or other organization. I mean, I'm pretty sure some of the IT managers in my company once were coders or server technicians. Do folks really think that they go do the coding themselves or hook up the cables for the important stuff? No, they delegate that stuff. They may delegate some things to their "high-fliers" to ensure it's done properly and they may micromanage to some extent, but they still aren't getting their hands dirty... because they're managers and they don't need to do that any more. If you're younger and haven't been in the workplace... do you think the dean of your university or principal of your high school should come teach everyone Algebra I? Why would Elminster or Manshoon or any other Big Boss go get their hands dirty everywhere? They have people for that. Those people happen to be you.

I learned that lesson from MMOs. Oh you need me to run you through the Dead Mines because you don't feel like looking for a group? Well I'm sorry nub, but I got dragons to slay and HKs to farm.

[hamlet]

Forgotten Realms is a bit of a Roarshak . . . Roreshack . . . Wror . . :smallfurious: . . . INK BLOT TEST . . . :smalltongue: . . . of a campaign setting. What an individual sees in it says much more about them and their gaming style than what's actually contained within the pages (since game settings are prime examples of "Death of the Author" and mean less on paper than what happens when the gaming group gets their grubby little mitts on them).

Many people see too many high level PC's, author avatars, peurile stupid things sticking to the bottom of their shoes, etc. Too much magic. Too much "ain't it cool!" Too much (thanks to TSR policy in the 90's) that simply doesn't belong and would have been a better project independant of the Realms. Just TOO MUCH in general.

Others see THE PREMIER setting of all Dungeons and Dragons since TSR essentially made it D&D after Greyhawk was greylisted (that's a pun, see?). It has reams of material so the harried and busy DM stuck for ideas need only open up a setting book and read a page and suddenly there are five ideas staring him in the face. it's the D&D that everybody and their mother is familiar with, if only on a superficial level. Not even the pre-dating Greyhawk, Mystara, and Arneson's setting can say that.

Personally, I tend to get bothered by it for a whole bunch of reasons, but I'm still very interested in giving it a go one of these days without players who are so enthralled by Realmslore that they want fanfiction recitation rather than a campaign. It's just jiggered wrong for me in some ways, but still exciting and interesting. Though I will NEVER go beyond the original Greybox edition.

If you want a primer about the Realms . . . Candlekeep is really your best starting place along with TV Tropes, which is really good at getting across some of the quirkier elements. Pick up a copy of the old AD&D settings on the cheap and you'll be surprised by what you find. The original version was actually quite sparse compared to the bloat that infected it almost immediately (being paid to write more about something after the story is told is a harsh mistress).

Then, ask questions. Fans of the Realms are friendly sorts and hardly ever bite, unless you hit one of the hot button issues unawares.

[pwykersotz]

I thought Faerun's Underdark melded into the Elemental Plane of Earth and certain points, and so actually was infinite?

Also saying something is big is different then actually mapping out thousands of miles of Underdark.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I am so going to use it. It gives a TON more freedom to design crazy underground temples and the like without having to worry about the effects on the overworld.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't know if this is true or not, but I am so going to use it. It gives a TON more freedom to design crazy underground temples and the like without having to worry about the effects on the overworld.

In Underdark (the 3.5e sourcebook) it also mentions that there's random portals to the Elemental Planes of Air and Water, and that certain areas mesh seamlessly with the Plane of Shadows (the shadowfell now, I suppose).

[ScrivenerofDoom]

(snip) IMO FR appeals to the lowest common denominator in the hobby. It's a power-gamer's paradise. Everyone is a god in mortal form. It's high-magic, high-fantasy where you can be a special snowflake, just like everyone else.

Um, no.

At its heart, it's a fairly well-designed world which provides a DM with a range of premade history, deities, cults, power groups, NPCs, and maps that he or she can use as background material for his or her games without having to do a lot of that sort of work personally.

However, as happens with every RPG and every RPG world, you get people that turn it into a setting for power fantasies, aided and abetted by...


The more I know about the Realms the more I'm convinced that the campaign setting is a marketing tool: The *real* reason the setting gets massive changes every edition is so the writers can make stories about the cause of the changes. I made the mistake of actually trying out some FR novels once; They were pretty much unreadable.

... some of the worst fantasy novels ever published.

And here's the heart of the real problem with FR: the novels sell wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than the RPG products.

If you want a crash course on the Realms, read Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, the original Old Grey Box, or some of Ed's original Dragon articles. Avoid the novels like the plague - even the popular ones - and avoid players who love any novel involving Drizzt or Elminster. (Although, to be fair, The Crystal Shard remains a great little read; just avoid everything else.)

I've been running FR since the first boxed set, I still love it, and I still have no power-gamers in my games. I'm now using the 4E version of the Realms, Spellplague and all, because I have found it's nearly perfect for the game I want to run. I like the whole points-of-light conceit. I like the ruined nations. I like the dead deities. There are adventure hooks in all of these things! And Elminster has been dead in my games for quite a while and anything invented by R A Salvatore simply does not exist.

I still use lots of the original products in my 4E games - my current Neverwinter campaign is based off ideas from FR5 The Savage Frontier and FR11 Dwarves Deep as well as 4E's Neverwinter Campaign Setting - so there's still plenty of lore if the players want it, or they can ignore it if they prefer and just get into the adventures.

FR basically saves you time as a DM if you want somewhere to set your adventures and don't want the trouble of creating your own maps, deities, history, etc... and then making sure those things fit together. That allows me more time to craft adventures and campaigns which is really the stuff that gets used in play.

But it depends on the DM. If your skills and interests lead you to want to do your own worldbuilding then I would not recommend FR. If your players love FR novels, I would also probably not recommend FR. Otherwise, I think it's worth an honest look away from the histrionics and exaggerations that you often find online.

[Rolemancer]

"Your DM might set the campaign on one of these
worlds or on one that he or she created. Because there
is so much diversity among the worlds of D&D, you
should check with your DM about any house rules
that will affect your play of the game. Ultimately, the
Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and
its setting, even if the setting is a published world."

- D&D Next Basic Rules

[Icewraith]

I don't know if this is true or not, but I am so going to use it. It gives a TON more freedom to design crazy underground temples and the like without having to worry about the effects on the overworld.

There are a few areas in FR that (probably still) have continuous epic magic preventing them from collapsing no matter how much you dig under them. Hence you can have as much Undermountain under Waterdeep as you like (unless it got blown up, but Undermountain is iconic and useful enough I can't imagine anyone getting rid of it).

Setting specific sci-fi and fantasy genre novels have a baseline (baseline, not all) quality in the bodice ripper romance novel range and should be given that exact amount of weight when it comes to your campaign. (None unless you want to steal some fluff or a plot hook.)

[INDYSTAR188]

Setting specific sci-fi and fantasy genre novels have a baseline (baseline, not all) quality in the bodice ripper romance novel range and should be given that exact amount of weight when it comes to your campaign. (None unless you want to steal some fluff or a plot hook.)

I agree completely with this. I was just telling my wife last weekend, when I started R.A. Salvitore's 'Paths of Darkness' (it was a four book set at Half Priced Books for $7!), that they are a guilty pleasure in that they're equivalent to a romance-novel with Fabio on the front. I mean, to me, they read like a campaign from my highschool days, almost as if Salvitore wrote a campaign journal and then turned it into a slightly higher quality book-series. I don't have all 45 D'rizzt novels and I probably never will, but every once in a long while I like to read through them.

[Sir_Leorik]

For me, the draw of the "Forgotten Realms" are the Alias and Dragonbait adventures, in the Finder's Stone Trilogy and a few follow up novels. I also enjoyed Bob Salvatore's earlier work, namely the Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies. (I can't stand everything that comes after that.) I find Ed Greenwood's writing to be a cure for my insomnia. And one of my favorite Realms characters isn't even residing on Toril anymore: Jander Sunstar, the Elf Vampire from "Vampire of the Mists", currently residing in the Domain of Falkovnia in the Ravenloft Campaign.

In terms of playing in the Realms, in my experience it provides a very detailed framework for DMs to run campaigns. So long as you know what to exclude you're fine. By contrast, the Dragonlance Campaign has always seemed difficult to run to me, because the canon of the campaign restricts your choices. As for Greyhawk, it has a long and detailed history and setting, but without the popularity that Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms have achieved, it keeps getting set aside, first by TSR and now by WotC.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I find myself liking a few random books - although I do slog through most of RA's work, I genuinely enjoyed Keith Strohm's Bladesinger, Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards, Richard Lee Byer's Year of Rogue Dragons/Haunted Lands/Brotherhood of the Griffon and Bruce Cordell's Darkvision.

The War of the Spider Queen series had a few saving graces - namely, I loved Pharaun/Ryld/Valas, and the chance to see other drow cities not named Menzoberranzan (Ssamath [the City of Portals] in particular was pretty neat).

Of course, since I'm the most well-read of our group FR-wise, and I do 90-100% of the DMing, I don't usually have to worry about having to include the events described therein.