Venerable Warforged?

[Wacky89]

one of my players wants to play a warforged, and asked me if it could be venerable.
Then I was thinking, warforged doesnt have a lifespan would they even age and get the benefits from middle aged, old and venerable?

[Zombimode]

one of my players wants to play a warforged, and asked me if it could be venerable.
Then I was thinking, warforged doesnt have a lifespan would they even age and get the benefits from middle aged, old and venerable?

I'm away from books, but iirc Warforged get exactly 1 ability mod through age. Thus "venerable" has no rules meaning for a Warforged.
Also, keep in mind that Warforged emerged as a race only about, what, 70? years ago.

[Wacky89]

any1 else?

[Spore]

They have a middle aged in 3.5 but that has been removed in 4e. Also really really old Warforged (in the Eberron setting) typically go mad.

[Necroticplague]

one of my players wants to play a warforged, and asked me if it could be venerable.
Then I was thinking, warforged doesnt have a lifespan would they even age and get the benefits from middle aged, old and venerable?

They don't have a venerable to be. However, they do have a middle age, meaning you can get -1 to all physical in exchange for +1 mental.

Meanwhile, if we adress this from fluff perspective of "how does a construct age?", then I'd like to refer to a simple quote: "Nothing never breaks, busts, bends, rusts, upends or shatters." Even of they don't have a heart to stop beating, simple wear and tear will take their toll. Their metal parts will become rigid and grating, while their wood portions warp and rot, and leather frays.

[Shining Wrath]

Part of the fluff for Warforged is that they are immortal. The guy who created the Eberron setting, Richard Baker, wrote some novels set there, and the Warforged therein believe themselves immortal and some of them believe themselves superior to mortals for that reason.

My ruling would be that yes, there are venerable Warforged, but it takes thousands or even millions of years. A venerable Warforged should remember a time when the stars formed different constellations and be able to make Ancient Wyrm dragons feel like youths.

[arkangel111]

magically aging someone moves them to the next category so its quite possible to have a warforged who "feels" much older than his brethren even if he still has only been alive for 70 years, but they are listed as immortal and therefore cannot be aged.

While i like the idea from a PO or TO level I would think that allowing them to age would mean that they could also be magically aged as well which introduces a weakness into the race that wasn't there initially, and would be up to the DM on how to handle it since he would have to determine age categories and a max age.

[VoxRationis]

How well does a 10-year-old computer run compared to when it was made? A frequently-used, 30-year-old car?
I'm not sure of warforged in particular, not having the Eberron campaign setting, but it would make sense that it could experience breakdown. I'm not sure how it would develop the better mental stats, though.

[Zombimode]

How well does a 10-year-old computer run compared to when it was made? A frequently-used, 30-year-old car?
I'm not sure of warforged in particular, not having the Eberron campaign setting, but it would make sense that it could experience breakdown. I'm not sure how it would develop the better mental stats, though.

Like I said, per RAW the term "venerable" has no rules meaning for a warfroged.
Warforged enter middle age at 150 years with the corresponding modifiers to the ability scores. They have NO old age, venerable age or maximum age.

[lytokk]

How well does a 10-year-old computer run compared to when it was made? A frequently-used, 30-year-old car?
I'm not sure of warforged in particular, not having the Eberron campaign setting, but it would make sense that it could experience breakdown. I'm not sure how it would develop the better mental stats, though.

with proper maintenance, the answer would be indefinitely. Sure, you'll have to swap out parts as they break down, but the answer is still indefinitely, so long as compatible parts are available. Since a warforged can be repaired with a variety of materials (see the warforged repair kit) there's always going to be compatible materials and parts. But instead of a body breaking down, the biggest worry would be how long until the mind breaks down.

Awake 24 hours a day, you will eventually run out of things even to simply think about, especially over the course of a warforged lifespan. Granted, this can be mitigated by always making new friends, who have had different lives, thus opening you to new experiences.

[torrasque666]

Aye, and Warforged are known for their Charisma and ability to make new friends.

[The Glyphstone]

Aye, and Warforged are known for their Charisma and ability to make new friends.

The average Warforged has Charisma 8. That's "the guy who sits on the fringe at parties', not 'Dead-Skunk Dave the profanity-spewing illiterate hobo'. They're perfectly capable of making friends.

[torrasque666]

I was kidding. I was more referring to how their favorite class is fighter and Charisma is traditionally a dump stat for a Fighter, unless your DM won't allow Intimidate to scale off of something else.

[Psyren]

Indeed, Dwarves have negative Cha too and their irascibility makes them almost universally endearing. Just look at Gimli, or the Bouldershoulders, or Oghren, or Khelgar Ironfist etc.

Of course, I view the Warforged cha penalty differently - they are more withdrawn/staid than prickly and rugged. Rather than being quick to anger, they tend to have difficulty expressing their emotions at all. But that can be easily endearing too.

[Spore]

The warforged Pierce from the Dreaming Dark novels did interest me in his problems and dillemas but he never struck me as particularly charming or interesting. He never felt alive or vulnerable. They mostly feel inanimate and golem-like with little to no self consciousness or awareness.

That's what Charisma is ultimatively about. Low Charisma just means someone even vanishes on photographs. Being loud, obnoxious and exceptionally ugly is actually quite high charisma (night hag comes to mind).

[Psyren]

The warforged Pierce from the Dreaming Dark novels did interest me in his problems and dillemas but he never struck me as particularly charming or interesting. He never felt alive or vulnerable. They mostly feel inanimate and golem-like with little to no self consciousness or awareness.

That is just a writer not knowing how to write them. Remember, one of the major differentiating factors between Warforged and other automatons (both in D&D and fiction in general) is that Warforged can feel fear. Indeed, this capacity for fear is used to condition them easily from an early age.

(And now I have to dig up the Keith Baker article on this which was no doubt swallowed in the WotC archive... grumble grumble.)

[Spore]

I am not sure if I want to know Keith Baker's opinion on automaton characters when he wrote the Dreaming Dark series...

[Psyren]

I am not sure if I want to know Keith Baker's opinion on automaton characters when he wrote the Dreaming Dark series...

He's opining on Warforged though - his own creation - not "automaton characters." His point was that they aren't automatons.

[Spore]

I know that. And I know his opinon on them very well. So my conclusion is that the Cha penalty is because the Warforged cannot express themselves in a "humanoid way" properly. The feel of a robot character is still hard to grasp because as I know Warforged can die but the novel made it feel like the Warforged gets better treatment than the human characters.

I guess that is what you get when you kill off the healer in the first book while having your plot revolve around the artificer.

[Wacky89]

Like I said, per RAW the term "venerable" has no rules meaning for a warfroged.
Warforged enter middle age at 150 years with the corresponding modifiers to the ability scores. They have NO old age, venerable age or maximum age.

got a source of that thing about warforged only being able to be middle aged?

[torrasque666]

Races of Ebberon: Page 27 Table: Aging Effects.

Warforged have a null entry for Old, Venerable, or Max Age.

[phlidwsn]

got a source of that thing about warforged only being able to be middle aged?

Chart of ECS page 27, Warforged Middle Age 150, old, venerable, maximum listed as '--'

[Shining Wrath]

I think of Charisma as the ability to alter how others perceive you. That's why it's the key stat for Disguise and Use Magic Device.

Warforged lack the necessary background and referents to do a good job of sending the non-verbal signals that alter how someone perceives you. They also lack the necessary facial musculature to have facial expressions of any sort, which are pretty important in humanoid communications. That's why they have low charisma, not because they are mean or offensive.

Having said that, note the "ghula" on the warforged's forehead. No one designed it to be there, but there it is. Even if you replace that piece, it "grows" back. Warforged are therefore inherently magical even if they don't necessarily cast any spells or spell-like abilities.

In D&D there's things that can't possibly exist without magic, like ghosts. And things which are perfectly mundane except they can use magic, like humans. And there's a continuum along that spectrum, and while Warforged are clearly not beings of pure magic, they aren't purely mundane. They're probably about the same position on the mundane-magic continuum as a zombie.

So, I think a Warforged doesn't have to "wear out" any more than you'd have a zombie "wear out" after being in a dungeon for a few thousand years.